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Snaphaan
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Scientific Magick or Wishfull Thinking?

I just need to state here upfront I am by no means deeply involved in any ritual magick or any other form of esoteric wisdom.

What I am is more of a fascinated researcher. So I will not pretend I have any real deep first-hand knowledge on this subject. But I have a few questions that seem to recur more and more as I am digging along. And I need guidance.

You see, I have reached a point where I don't know what to believe anymore.

From the start of my investigations I was sure that there must be some hidden truth, something profoundly real about the hidden mysteries or magick in general, but lately I have been stumbling in the dark.

I am trying to keep away from how to books, since I am only interested in historical treatisies and facts - if possible.

Most books seem to deal with the symbols and philosophies instead of reality. There seem to be great faith placed on unseen unknowable forces at work through symbols and signs. But many of these thoughts are no less scientific and out-of-this-world than the wave state of a electron. If Agrippa was thrown into our world today he would drop his wand and start studying physics. Don't you think? Engineers and physicists seem to be the real masters of nature.

David copperfield used a number of engineers and all sorts of scientists to bring most of his ideas to reality. But what if social insitutions used these same principles to fool thousands, and even millions of people?

If I considder magick as a world of make-believe then the only way to explain certain phenomena in the world, past and present, is that it's all based on science, or rudimentary science. Which leaves me to the conclusion that the old Egyptians were superstitious scientists that even used some of there mundane enginering and chemical feats to impress the people with some kind of illusion of life and matter.  And even today I have to take into account that the church (especially the catholic) use the superstitous mind of people to lure them into the older mysterie schools. So they are in fact using stage magician tricks on larger scale to rally people together in a hypnotic and emosionally charged atmosphere. This is a scary thought. sad

Whatever anyone thinks of catholics, they are as deeply involved in the esoteric and mysteries as is many occult groups. In fact, it would not be so strange to insitiate someone into the arcane through catholic teachings!

Since many of the old magicians and alchemists were in fact the forerunners of science, is it not a valid to imply that magick is a deceiving form of science. It is where science is used to falsify reality and create illusions whereby people are politically or spiriually misguided (I am not implying from a christian perspective but from a situation where the state is backed up by the church). As the Egyptians have done, or the Babylonians or even today?


I have found no substanial evidence for real magick today except maybe the Nigerian preacher TB Joshua. He is no Christian and I am rather inclined to believe the statements that he is very true to his ancestor and water (crocodile) spirit worship. But I could be wrong and only a personal inquiry might cast more light on the real facts. If he is real then it means I am missing something profoundly deep and real. That science is not the new magick and that demons are not a mind inflicted state but a real spiritual medium!


What I am hoping from anyone here is a guide toward any researcher who has coverded this field substantially. Or maybe a guideline as to authors who are respected practitioners of their craft. I have my suspicions of Crowley because of the notoriety of his public image. I found Blavatsky's (Secret Doctrine) correlation and outline between wisdom schools' deeper philosphies, fascinating  although a little tedious at times. M.P. Hall's work, although he was really knowledgeable has no real value except as reference.


Could the serpent in fact be the symbolic of something real, a secret wisdom that scientists have reaped great benefits from through history. Maybe one could even go so far as to imply that Einstein, being a very zealos Sionist, could have been more knowledgable about the Kabbalah than suspected?  As was Newton when he derrived his celestial clockwork model from deep esoteric studies? Or Nostradamus could have had for his very accurate diagnosis and success rate?

Could this universal serpent be the symbolic form of a wisdom where some of the greatest minds in history have tapped into? A force beyond nature that reveals the secrets of the mundane reality - of the demiurge?

Thank you for your time. smile


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Seth
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Re: Scientific Magick or Wishfull Thinking?

So...what your trying to do is to find an answer to the question whether magick is real or not...by looking at historical treatises and facts. Isnt that counter-productive?

If the answered lied in history, wouldn't it already be known?


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Gandridur
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Re: Scientific Magick or Wishfull Thinking?

Snaphaan wrote:



What I am is more of a fascinated researcher. So I will not pretend I have any real deep first-hand knowledge on this subject.
And magic can only be experienced.


I am only interested in historical treatisies and facts - if possible.
No that's not possible with any facts. Magic is first hand experience. That's like reading books about a place and a culture no one has ever visited and a author tell the reader despite that, he knows everything about that place and its culture.


Most books seem to deal with the symbols and philosophies instead of reality.
Which reality? Who's reality? There's no such thing as reality. Your reality is not mine and mine is not yours. Reality is only perception. What was seen as reality in a culture is not the same reality today and it will be another reality tomorrow. The magical realiy is described in those books. It's there in front of your nose and you miss it!


If Agrippa was thrown into our world today he would drop his wand and start studying physics. Don't you think?
Nope


Engineers and physicists seem to be the real masters of nature.
Studying nature and its mechanisms is not the same thing as knowing the nature. Abusing nature is not being its master. Rather its despot. Anytime and anywhere the mother earth godess can open her womb and swallow everything. No one can master the nature. That's only illusion believing that.



David copperfield used a number of engineers and all sorts of scientists to bring most of his ideas to reality.
Again there's no such thing as reality.


But what if social insitutions used these same principles to fool thousands, and even millions of people?
That happens everyday. Read a newspaper or watch television.


If I considder magick as a world of make-believe then the only way to explain certain phenomena in the world, past and present, is that it's all based on science, or rudimentary science.
Nope. And there's no such thing as a only one way to explain something. How people explain things is based on their beliefe system and allmost all stay there without ever stepping outside their circles of beliefe.


Which leaves me to the conclusion that the old Egyptians were superstitious scientists that even used some of there mundane enginering and chemical feats to impress the people with some kind of illusion of life and matter.
No. A very clayman conclusion. You have never even studied Egyptian mythology, have you? You will not find any such conclusion in a academic book of Egyptian mythology.



Whatever anyone thinks of catholics, they are as deeply involved in the esoteric and mysteries as is many occult groups.
Yeah right. Go to a local catholic church and thell them that. You have not a clue of what is going on in any magical group if you have never been in any.


Since many of the old magicians and alchemists were in fact the forerunners of science, is it not a valid to imply that magick is a deceiving form of science.
LOL Are you trying to be the next Richard Dawkins?



I have found no substanial evidence for real magick today
No because you want to find a scientific evidence through books. That's not possible. Magic can only be experienced with personal evidence. All else will lead to assumptions and guessings of how and what magic is. There are many schamans who have not given antropologists the whole truth or missled them without them ever knowing that.


What I am hoping from anyone here is a guide toward any researcher who has coverded this field substantially. Or maybe a guideline as to authors who are respected practitioners of their craft.
Read above.


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Snaphaan
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Re: Scientific Magick or Wishfull Thinking?

Thank you for the replies.

Gandridur.

About the Catholics. I merely implied that the essential elements and even beliefs seurrounding what this church calls Christianity, is actually derrived from older mystical sources, rooted in the old Chaldeën and Babylonian magickal systems, and even more recently Gnostism.

I studied archaeology with a special interest in Middle-Eastern cultures. My statement concerning the superstitious aspect of Egyptian science was only my own findings. I could be well off the mark. Part of my conclusion was based on Schwaller de Lubicz's Symbol and the Symbolic where he concludes that part of the reason we do not understand Egyptian symbols is because we are placing too much superstituous beliefs on them. They may have derived a great many REAL scientific conclusion through intuitive symbolic use. Another book of interest is The Dawn of Magick that concludes amongst other things that certain Magickal societies were in fact a group of superstitious scientists that were looking for the secrets of nature.

I admit that my request is, considering the subject, not really feasible. But if you state that reality is a matter of perspective, then I would consider it a cop-out. Then all participating in this form of art are in fact living in a magickal and fantastical world where there reality is created by themselves - like being a god in your own way.

I have had my suspicions about this sort of placebo effect when reading up on some of the esoteric and metaphysical speculations of occult groups. Some even try to consolidate their claims as based on contemporary scientific results - which I think is wrong. I think many of these claimed occultists are merely running along with the symbols and mythology without grasping the real meaning of what they are working with. For instance, alchemy is still not clearly understood. One theory brought fourth years ago was that The Great Work could have been the systematic extraction (if you will) or physical realization of a form of nuclear energy. The ritual and time consuming process was also a spiritual awakening, a new way of looking at the world and nature - of understanding it's secrets!

But I did not make a post here because I believe one way or the other. Here in Africa we have quite a few strange phenomena that can hardly be described in rational terms. Some sangomas really seem to harnass powers beyond reality. It could be that psychology has replaced the idea of magick and quite a few paranormal activities. This could be a mistake. If these powers do exist then a few pills and a padded room will not help.

And you state we cannot master nature? I tell you science can and will. This monster has the capacity to give us through medicine and technology abilities we could only dream of. Living hundreds of years or being able to exhange our body with systems capable of incredible feats. And why not? Transhumanism is the future of mankind.

Sorry if this post does seem a bit sceptical but I am not really against the idea. I am rather more concerned about what reality is between all the mumbo-jumbo.


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