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'Philosophical' Question

'Philosophical' Question

Postby SacraThothisShiningMap » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:39 am

Can a Catholic, Orthodox or Coptic perform rituals that involve "demon-gods", and not be committing a christened-sin technically?
have always wondered what others thought of this.
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Re: 'Philosophical' Question

Postby Asurendra » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:52 am

The demons of the Goetia are governed by angelic entities. The entire operation is done in the name of God and with Divine Power (the Bornless One).
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Re: 'Philosophical' Question

Postby SacraThothisShiningMap » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:07 am

Asurendra wrote:The demons of the Goetia are governed by angelic entities. The entire operation is done in the name of God and with Divine Power (the Bornless One).

yes, but if youve ever been in a circle of Christians then you may have heard them tell you "Of practical theory, in the footprints of Christ we cannot operate or congress with demonic entities". So Im more or less asking what is the middle ground between these two conflicting ideals: one where we WWJD or one where we come to the conclusion, or a similar conclusion of what you said. How does that conflict resolve?
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Re: 'Philosophical' Question

Postby Nepthys » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:51 am

I am not familiar with Orthodox or Coptic teaching on the matter, but I'm assuming they might be quite similar to the Catholic position (since demons, demonology, etc. aren't really contentious between them). The Catechism of the Catholic Church is actually kind of clear on what they have to say on the matter of demons:

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil".267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil "has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies".271

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272

394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls "a murderer from the beginning", who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father.273 "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."274 In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God's reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."275

source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... p7.htm#391


This section discusses the origin of demons, and how their choice to rebel against God is unforgivable, and alludes to the idea that the fall of the angels is what led to the seduction to pull away from God that is present in all men.

414 Satan or the devil and the other demons are fallen angels who have freely refused to serve God and his plan. Their choice against God is definitive. They try to associate man in their revolt against God.

415 "Although set by God in a state of rectitude man, enticed by the evil one, abused his freedom at the very start of history. He lifted himself up against God, and sought to attain his goal apart from him" (GS 13 § 1).

416 By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings.

417 Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin".

418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence").

419 "We therefore hold, with the Council of Trent, that original sin is transmitted with human nature, "by propagation, not by imitation" and that it is. . . 'proper to each'" (Paul VI, CPG § 16).

420 The victory that Christ won over sin has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us: "where sin increased, grace abounded all the more" (Rom 5:20).

421 Christians believe that "the world has been established and kept in being by the Creator's love; has fallen into slavery to sin but has been set free by Christ, crucified and risen to break the power of the evil one. . ." (GS 2 § 2).

source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... p7.htm#414


Here we are told that Catholicism holds that demons' only agency is the seduction of man away from God, and that Christ's sacrifice is the key that gives man full access to God's love and mercy to resist this seduction.

447 Jesus ascribes this title to himself in a veiled way when he disputes with the Pharisees about the meaning of Psalm 110, but also in an explicit way when he addresses his apostles.61 Throughout his public life, he demonstrated his divine sovereignty by works of power over nature, illnesses, demons, death and sin.


Jesus has divine sovereignty precisely because of his exclusive dominion over demons (among the other things listed).

550 The coming of God's kingdom means the defeat of Satan's: "If it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."277 Jesus' exorcisms free some individuals from the domination of demons. They anticipate Jesus' great victory over "the ruler of this world".278 The kingdom of God will be definitively established through Christ's cross: "God reigned from the wood."279


Just as Jesus has dominion over demons, so do they have no place in the final salvific work of the Kingdom of God.

1086 "Accordingly, just as Christ was sent by the Father so also he sent the apostles, filled with the Holy Spirit. This he did so that they might preach the Gospel to every creature and proclaim that the Son of God by his death and resurrection had freed us from the power of Satan and from death and brought us into the Kingdom of his Father. But he also willed that the work of salvation which they preached should be set in train through the sacrifice and sacraments, around which the entire liturgical life revolves."9


Again, Jesus' salvific role is to free us from association with Satan and his demons, association that is established as being the vehicle by which demons tempt us away from God.

1708 By his Passion, Christ delivered us from Satan and from sin. He merited for us the new life in the Holy Spirit. His grace restores what sin had damaged in us.


To be delivered from Satan is to be delivered from sin. Anything that pulls one into closer association with Satan is sin, and so is pulling one away from God.

In short, no, there is no middle ground here if you want to approach it from a proper Catholic (and possibly Orthodox or Coptic) perspective. In this perspective, the angels that "govern" the Goetic demons do not exist in the role ascribed to them. If you choose to adopt a stance similar to what Asurendra is describing, understand that that position is entirely dependent on a Gnostic interpretation of what God is which would require you to disregard the Catholic/Orthodox/Coptic positions wholeheartedly, as all three have condemned Gnosticism as heresy.

It's up to you how you rationalize any kind of occult behavior if you subscribe to these religious traditions. I do not accept the full Catholic position on this question (as I was raised Catholic but practice the occult and still hold to a lot of Catholic cultural norms) and this disregard is how my own rationalization is allowed. If I fully bought into the Catholic position on this I would be a hypocrite.
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Re: 'Philosophical' Question

Postby MorganaSunrise » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:15 pm

I was born a Catholic. Baptized and Confirmed. -_- There is no middle ground. I used to get into trouble in Sunday school for "asking to know to much knowledge" is how they would put it. But, you have to realize somethings the way you are asking this question. Everyone is different. There are those that are open and then there are those that are close minded.

Many Catholics that stay to the teachings express that any communications with the spirits is a sin, as well as, many other factors. All you are supposed to do is to go by the teachings of the priest, the bible, and jesus.

It took me a while to break away from this because there were many questions I had that would not be answered or even listened to. From my perspective people have slowly over the years corrupted many things pertaining to religions just because someone wanted power or control or the person seeking the power did not know the concepts of a religion they disliked so they decided to dispose of its worth or value.

As for me I relate mostly to the Ancient Canaanites' views when it comes to Christianity as a whole. There are many things in ancient scripts that come together that form Christianity, but no actual Christian or in fact Catholic will admit to those things.

Now, you have to look at both point of views either way in what's listed above in previous posts.
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Re: 'Philosophical' Question

Postby Asurendra » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:00 am

I was also raised Roman Catholic and faithfully attended the Tridentine Latin Mass for years. I have not been a Christian for some time so, for me, this is an academic question without any emotional investment. However, there are more traditionally oriented Christians on the Forum or who may browse it so this might be fruitful for them.

One perspective: legal

Using the catechism as a source it may have been best to go at the subject directly. There are more direct statements on the issue in question:

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.

If you read this carefully, there is ambiguity. The reason given that these things are "rejected" is that "they contradict the honor ... God alone" and also because of "power over others." Question: if these technologies are used in such a way which does not contradict the honor of God but is done through His Name for means which do no harm, are they still rejected? Clearly, exploitation and harm are condemned, but the Wiccans say the same. The Church "warns" to be cautious, and all magicians do the same (as have I and others on this Forum).

Regardless of where one may land in that debate, the source of penal law for the Roman Church is NOT the Catechism; it is the Code of Canon Law. The old Pio-Benedictine Code of 1917 listed these things as 'Sacrilege' (Canon 2325) and hence as Mortal Sin. However, I do not think that this is in the modern 1983 Code of Canon Law. I own a copy and I could find nothing, and I looked through the pdf I have posted and still found nothing. This could be my error, unlike perhaps 3 people on this Forum I do not claim to speak with oracular authority. So, I posted a link for others to look. What that means is that this issue is a question of conscience and not canon law.

http://www.holyrosaryprovince.org/2011/ ... w_1983.pdf

Another perspective: authority

Jesus said, (Matt. 28:18) "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me," so, by extension, all who are a part of the Body of Christ share that authority. The Apostle Paul says, (Phil 2:10) "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly and earthly and infernal beings." This is, from the Christian perspective, the source of authority/power over the demons. Besides, you can't "test the spirits" (1 John 4:1) if you're not talking to them.

This brings me to the angelic governors of the demons. It is wrong to say this is a Gnostic idea. Dr. Robert Fludd is the earliest documented source of a correspondence between the Shem HaMephorash angels and the 72 demons of the Goetia (Poke Runyon, a recognized authority on Ceremonial Magick has repeated this). He died in the early 1600's. At that time, there was no knowledge of Gnosticism in Europe except what was recorded by the early Church Fathers, especially Irenaeus (who was a pain to read, even as a Christian). This relationship of angels to demons is found nowhere in the Church Fathers and there is no clear chain of transmission for it. If one is of the opinion that they "do not exist" then the best method to resolve the issue for oneself with certitude is not to listen to me or anyone else but to invoke them onto an Almadel and just ask them.
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Re: 'Philosophical' Question

Postby Nepthys » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:49 am

Asurendra's final analysis is better than mine, and I tip my hat. O0 (Best I could give is a bitchin' fro...sooo...imagine I'm tipping my bitchin' fro)

I am currently looking through some things, and I'm having a hard time finding what it is I'm looking for, but in regards to the changes in the Code of Canon Law, I'm pretty certain (around 88%) that what is not covered in newer iterations of the CCL but is covered in older versions is grandfathered into the newer CCL. Basically, if the most recent iteration available does not cover a topic, but an earlier iteration does, the earlier iteration is to be consulted on the matter. If there was something between the two that made it more ambiguous, then, yes Asurendra is correct in that it becomes a matter of conscience and not a matter of doctrine.

All that being said, I'm pretty sure the modern Church stance remains that it is a big "NO" as far as any sort of occult work is concerned. While it can be argued that the miraculous abilities of the Priesthood are a form of Occultism, the Church maintains that this is due to the mystical transformation of the individuals within the properly-ordained Priesthood and it is not the domain of any individual outside the Priesthood to mimic or attempt any such miraculous abilities. The murkiness comes into play with their treatment of "living saints" (those who are apparently able to heal, exorcise, etc. in the name of God and Christ), so there's that to consider as well.

In its simplest form, I would say that, no, there is no middle ground between the Occult and strict Catholic teaching on the matter. In its not so simple form, I would say there IS a middle ground, but you should be rather familiar with the Catechism and the Code of Canon Law and any current encyclicals on the matter so you know where your boundaries lie. In its "oh-god-this-is-so-complicated" form, I would say there is a very wide and open middle ground that will rely on your own interpretation of these items, your own rationale, and your own philosophical outlook on the relationship between yourself and the Church that nobody but you can discern.
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Re: 'Philosophical' Question

Postby retr0spective » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:36 am

SacraThothisShiningMap wrote:Can a Catholic, Orthodox or Coptic perform rituals that involve "demon-gods", and not be committing a christened-sin technically?
have always wondered what others thought of this.


Hello. Christianity is monotheistic and does not recognize multiple gods as do their Roman and Greek cousin (There is God and multiple gods ruling together with him - Maximus Tyrius). Also the only acceptable activity toward demons within all forms of orthodox Christianity is exorcism which is built into the Rite of Baptism of the Orthodox Church.

The Three Exorcisms from the Rite of Baptism:

Priest: The Lord bans you, O Devil: He Who came into the world, and dwelled among men, that He might overthrow your tyranny and deliver men. Upon the Tree, He also triumphed over the adverse powers, when the sun was darkened, and the earth shook, and the graves were opened, and the bodies of the Saints arose. By death He annihilated Death, and overthrew him who exercised the dominion of Death, that is you, the Devil. I charge you by God, Who revealed the Tree of Life, and arrayed in ranks the Cherubim and the flaming sword which turns all ways to guard it: be banned. For I charge you by Him who walked upon the surface of the sea as if it were dry land, and banned the tempests of the winds; Whose glance dries up the deep, and Whose command makes the mountains melt away. Now, through us, He bans you. Fear, begone and depart from this created one, and do not return, nor hide yourself in him (her), nor seek to meet him (her), nor to influence him (her), either by night or by day, either in the morning or at noonday; but depart to your own infernal abyss until the great Day of Judgment which is ordained. Fear God Who sits upon the Cherubim and looks upon the deeps; before Whom tremble Angels and Archangels, Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, Authorities, Powers, the many-eyed Cherubim and the six-winged Seraphim; before Whom, likewise, heaven and earth do shake, the seas and all that they contain. Leave, and depart from this sealed, newly-enlisted warrior of Christ our God. For I charge you by Him Who rides upon the wings of the wind, and makes His Angels spirits, and His ministers a flaming fire: leave, and depart from this created one, with all your powersand your angels.

For glorified is the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages.

People: Amen.

Deacon: Let us pray to the Lord.

People: Lord, have mercy.

Priest: God, holy, awesome and glorious, Who is unsearchable and inscrutable in all His works and might, has foreordained for you the penalty of eternal punishment, O Devil. The same God, through us, His unworthy servant, commands you, with all your hosts, to depart from him (her) who has been newly sealed in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, our true God. Therefore I charge you, most crafty, impure, vile, loathsome and alien spirit, by the power of Jesus Christ, Who has all power, both in heaven and on earth, Who said to the deaf and dumb demon, "Come out of the man, and do not enter a second time into him:" Depart! Acknowledge the vanity of your might, which does not even have power over swine. Remember Him Who, at your request, commanded you to enter into the herd of swine. Fear God, by Whose decree the earth is established upon the waters; Who has made the heavens, and has set the mountains with a line and the valleys with a measure; and has fixed bounds to the sands of the sea, and a firm path upon the stormy waters; Who touches the mountains and they smoke; Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment; Who spreads out the heavens like a curtain; Who covers His exceedingly high places with the waters; Who has made the earth so sure upon its foundations, that it shall never be moved; Who gathers the water of the sea and pours it out upon the face of the whole earth: Leave, and depart from him (her) who has made himself (herself) ready for Holy Illumination. I charge you by the redeeming Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by His precious Body and Blood, and by His awesome Second Coming; for He shall come quickly to judge the whole earth; and He shall chastise you and all your host with burning Gehenna, committing you to outer darkness, where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

For of Christ our God is the dominion, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen

Deacon: Let us pray to the Lord.

People: Lord, have mercy.

Priest: O Lord of Sabaoth, the God of Israel, Who heals every malady and every infirmity: Look upon Your servant; prove him (her) and search him (her) and root out of him (her) every operation of the devil. Rebuke the unclean spirits and expel them, and purify the works of Your hands; and exerting Your great power, speedily crush down Satan under his (her) feet; and give him (her) victory over the same, and over his unclean spirits.

That, having obtained mercy from You, he (she) may be made worthy to partake of Your heavenly Mysteries; and may ascribe glory to You, the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages.

People: Amen.

A Prayer

Deacon: Let us pray to the Lord.

People: Lord, have mercy.

Priest: O Lord and Master, You created man in Your own likeness, and gave him the power of eternal life. You do not despise those who have fallen away through sin, but provide salvation for the world through the incarnation of Your Christ. Likewise, O Lord, deliver this Your created one from the bondage of the enemy, receive him (her) into Your heavenly kingdom. Open the eyes of his (her) understanding, that the illumination of Your Gospel may shine brightly in him (her). Assign to his (her) life an Angel of light who shall deliver him (her) from every snare of the adversary, from encounter with evil, from the demon of the noonday, and from evil thoughts.

The Priest then breathes gently in the form of a cross over the mouth, brow and breast of the Candidate, saying three times:

Expel from him (her) every evil and unclean spirit which hides and makes its lair in his (her) heart, (3x)

"the spirit of deceit, the spirit of evil, the spirit of idolatry and of every covetousness; the spirit of falsehood and of every uncleanness which operates through the prompting of the devil. And make him (her) a reason-endowed sheep in the holy flock of Your Christ, an honorable member of Your Church, a consecrated vessel, a child of the light and an heir of Your kingdom, that having lived in accordance with Your commandments, and preserved inviolate the seal, and kept his (her) garment undefiled, he (she) may receive the blessedness of the Saints in Your kingdom."

Through the grace, and compassion, and love for mankind of Your Only-begotten Son, with Whom You are blessed, together with Your all-holy, good, and life-creating Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages.

People: Amen.

The Candidate, with shoes removed, (and the Sponsors) turn around and face the West, with their backs to the Priest. The Priest then asks the following question three times:

Priest: Do you renounce Satan, and all his works, and all his angels, and all his service and all his pride? (3x)

And each time the Candidate (or Sponsor), answers:

Candidate: I do renounce him!

Priest: Have you renounced Satan? (3x)

And the Candidate (or Sponsor), responds each time:

Candidate: I have renounced him!

Priest: Breathe and spit upon him!

The Candidate (and the Sponsors) now turn back to the East, and they stand facing the Priest. and the Priest asks three times:

Do you unite yourself to Christ? (3x)

And each time the Candidate (or Sponsor) answers:

Candidate: I do unite myself to Christ.

Priest: Have you united yourself to Christ?

Candidate: I have united myself to Christ.

Priest: Do you believe in Him?

Candidate: I believe in Him as King and God.
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Re: 'Philosophical' Question

Postby retr0spective » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:36 am

SacraThothisShiningMap wrote:Can a Catholic, Orthodox or Coptic perform rituals that involve "demon-gods", and not be committing a christened-sin technically?
have always wondered what others thought of this.


Hello. Christianity is monotheistic and does not recognize multiple gods as do their Roman and Greek cousin (There is God and multiple gods ruling together with him - Maximus Tyrius). Also the only acceptable activity toward demons within all forms of orthodox Christianity is exorcism which is built into the Rite of Baptism of the Orthodox Church.

The Three Exorcisms from the Rite of Baptism:

Priest: The Lord bans you, O Devil: He Who came into the world, and dwelled among men, that He might overthrow your tyranny and deliver men. Upon the Tree, He also triumphed over the adverse powers, when the sun was darkened, and the earth shook, and the graves were opened, and the bodies of the Saints arose. By death He annihilated Death, and overthrew him who exercised the dominion of Death, that is you, the Devil. I charge you by God, Who revealed the Tree of Life, and arrayed in ranks the Cherubim and the flaming sword which turns all ways to guard it: be banned. For I charge you by Him who walked upon the surface of the sea as if it were dry land, and banned the tempests of the winds; Whose glance dries up the deep, and Whose command makes the mountains melt away. Now, through us, He bans you. Fear, begone and depart from this created one, and do not return, nor hide yourself in him (her), nor seek to meet him (her), nor to influence him (her), either by night or by day, either in the morning or at noonday; but depart to your own infernal abyss until the great Day of Judgment which is ordained. Fear God Who sits upon the Cherubim and looks upon the deeps; before Whom tremble Angels and Archangels, Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, Authorities, Powers, the many-eyed Cherubim and the six-winged Seraphim; before Whom, likewise, heaven and earth do shake, the seas and all that they contain. Leave, and depart from this sealed, newly-enlisted warrior of Christ our God. For I charge you by Him Who rides upon the wings of the wind, and makes His Angels spirits, and His ministers a flaming fire: leave, and depart from this created one, with all your powersand your angels.

For glorified is the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages.

People: Amen.

Deacon: Let us pray to the Lord.

People: Lord, have mercy.

Priest: God, holy, awesome and glorious, Who is unsearchable and inscrutable in all His works and might, has foreordained for you the penalty of eternal punishment, O Devil. The same God, through us, His unworthy servant, commands you, with all your hosts, to depart from him (her) who has been newly sealed in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, our true God. Therefore I charge you, most crafty, impure, vile, loathsome and alien spirit, by the power of Jesus Christ, Who has all power, both in heaven and on earth, Who said to the deaf and dumb demon, "Come out of the man, and do not enter a second time into him:" Depart! Acknowledge the vanity of your might, which does not even have power over swine. Remember Him Who, at your request, commanded you to enter into the herd of swine. Fear God, by Whose decree the earth is established upon the waters; Who has made the heavens, and has set the mountains with a line and the valleys with a measure; and has fixed bounds to the sands of the sea, and a firm path upon the stormy waters; Who touches the mountains and they smoke; Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment; Who spreads out the heavens like a curtain; Who covers His exceedingly high places with the waters; Who has made the earth so sure upon its foundations, that it shall never be moved; Who gathers the water of the sea and pours it out upon the face of the whole earth: Leave, and depart from him (her) who has made himself (herself) ready for Holy Illumination. I charge you by the redeeming Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by His precious Body and Blood, and by His awesome Second Coming; for He shall come quickly to judge the whole earth; and He shall chastise you and all your host with burning Gehenna, committing you to outer darkness, where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

For of Christ our God is the dominion, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen

Deacon: Let us pray to the Lord.

People: Lord, have mercy.

Priest: O Lord of Sabaoth, the God of Israel, Who heals every malady and every infirmity: Look upon Your servant; prove him (her) and search him (her) and root out of him (her) every operation of the devil. Rebuke the unclean spirits and expel them, and purify the works of Your hands; and exerting Your great power, speedily crush down Satan under his (her) feet; and give him (her) victory over the same, and over his unclean spirits.

That, having obtained mercy from You, he (she) may be made worthy to partake of Your heavenly Mysteries; and may ascribe glory to You, the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages.

People: Amen.

A Prayer

Deacon: Let us pray to the Lord.

People: Lord, have mercy.

Priest: O Lord and Master, You created man in Your own likeness, and gave him the power of eternal life. You do not despise those who have fallen away through sin, but provide salvation for the world through the incarnation of Your Christ. Likewise, O Lord, deliver this Your created one from the bondage of the enemy, receive him (her) into Your heavenly kingdom. Open the eyes of his (her) understanding, that the illumination of Your Gospel may shine brightly in him (her). Assign to his (her) life an Angel of light who shall deliver him (her) from every snare of the adversary, from encounter with evil, from the demon of the noonday, and from evil thoughts.

The Priest then breathes gently in the form of a cross over the mouth, brow and breast of the Candidate, saying three times:

Expel from him (her) every evil and unclean spirit which hides and makes its lair in his (her) heart, (3x)

"the spirit of deceit, the spirit of evil, the spirit of idolatry and of every covetousness; the spirit of falsehood and of every uncleanness which operates through the prompting of the devil. And make him (her) a reason-endowed sheep in the holy flock of Your Christ, an honorable member of Your Church, a consecrated vessel, a child of the light and an heir of Your kingdom, that having lived in accordance with Your commandments, and preserved inviolate the seal, and kept his (her) garment undefiled, he (she) may receive the blessedness of the Saints in Your kingdom."

Through the grace, and compassion, and love for mankind of Your Only-begotten Son, with Whom You are blessed, together with Your all-holy, good, and life-creating Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages.

People: Amen.

The Candidate, with shoes removed, (and the Sponsors) turn around and face the West, with their backs to the Priest. The Priest then asks the following question three times:

Priest: Do you renounce Satan, and all his works, and all his angels, and all his service and all his pride? (3x)

And each time the Candidate (or Sponsor), answers:

Candidate: I do renounce him!

Priest: Have you renounced Satan? (3x)

And the Candidate (or Sponsor), responds each time:

Candidate: I have renounced him!

Priest: Breathe and spit upon him!

The Candidate (and the Sponsors) now turn back to the East, and they stand facing the Priest. and the Priest asks three times:

Do you unite yourself to Christ? (3x)

And each time the Candidate (or Sponsor) answers:

Candidate: I do unite myself to Christ.

Priest: Have you united yourself to Christ?

Candidate: I have united myself to Christ.

Priest: Do you believe in Him?

Candidate: I believe in Him as King and God.
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Re: 'Philosophical' Question

Postby RoseRed » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:25 pm

Sorry, that was too much to read.

The short answer - no.
When my wings get tired I grab my broom.
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Re: 'Philosophical' Question

Postby Ramscha » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:16 pm

King James Bible wrote:1) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain


That should answer the question
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