Powered By Saaraan

Mainstream occult ideas that you consider really pernicious?

Exploring the Philosophical side of the Occult.

Mainstream occult ideas that you consider really pernicious?

Postby Cybernetic_Jazz » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:01 am

As I've been pacing back from my practices (and working 80ish hours per week) my drives to work are getting philosophical again, especially considering how many of my core precepts have been rattled.

I'd have to say that I'm first of all having a tougher time staying in the theist or pantheist camp and a sort of atheistic animism is ringing more truth bells at this point. Some people theorize that consciousness is trying to expand into space and that said animism will become a pantheistic deity at sometime in the future - that's all well and good, and I don't discount that possibility, just that I see a great deal of life just being ice-cold chance and all kinds of suffering that there's absolutely nothing to learn from morally unless one considers cynicism and atheism a gain.

In this I've had one idea come back to me again that I always thought was a bit crazy, at first I ran from it just because I assumed that I was too much of a lumpen and rationalite/materialist-lite thinker but I have to say, it just seems like a really really bad idea.

I don't know the proper name for it, whether it's truly a Rosicrucian axiom or just a popular Golden Dawn one, and it's what Aleister Crowley dubbed the 'paranoia pledge':

'I will look upon at every circumstance in my life as a communication with God'

Some things I'd absolutely have to knock this down with:

1) Being at Hobbsian workplaces where everyone's keeping a conformity and 'displayed weakness' dossier on the next person. What is God telling you there? Ape's gotta eat and the meal tastes even better if it's taken at another person's expense.

2) Being in the position where people seem to want to kill you for being different, as if some planetary immune system has encountered a foreign element. I'd have to suppose that's God telling us about His right new right-hand deputy who replaced Lucifer after his fall - Conformitas. I've often make the deity mixology joke of there being a Jupiter Carlito (half Zeus, half Carlito from NWO) who spits apple in the face of the uncool at the final judgment and sends them to hell, a place that smells a lot like apple cider. Is cleanliness next to godliness, or is it conformity's next to godliness, or is it just having center-of-the-bellcurve genes that's next to godliness?

3) In public interaction the people who move power are generally people who've weaponized their pathologies. It's also an environment generally speaking where stroking one's own ego with inanities or demanding that the next person does to takes far more precedence to truth or problem solving. What's God telling you with these encounters? Mendacity's the spice of life maybe?

4) The way the genders generally are damn near forced to treat each other from biology that short-circuits choice well before it reaches volition. I won't even take a guess here.


Overall we seem to be in a world where organized evil makes as little sense as organized good. It seems overall like we're in a wrestling match with the remnants of evolution, adaptations - even amoral ones - which gave us procreative advantages over other primates. When dodging the back-stabs of hungry coworkers, stopping for the person who refuses to use turn arrows because the people around them just aren't worth it, or having to read pages and pages of contracts because people will exploit any loophole they can find - even the ability to draw silver lining gets abstract enough that to place the praise for it at God's feet seems like a stretch. Also - I think it's really clear that if a person's life is absolutely stomping them out they're at much higher risk, and it's an incredible torturous idea to think that a self-aware being with immense power is not just watching every moment but actively rolling it out 'for your own good', or the good of most people around you if you want to multiply it on grotesque scales.
You don't have to do a thing perfect, just relentlessly.
User avatar
Cybernetic_Jazz
Forum Member
Forum Member
 
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:12 pm
Location: On a play date with the Universe.

Re: Mainstream occult ideas that you consider really pernici

Postby violetstar » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:22 pm

If we look into the original Jewish Kabbalah we discover that God,while being essentially good has the inherent capability to become evil.Basically it is inherently a component of His necessity to dispense Divine Judgement in order to combat sin.Thus to rectify sin and re-install good,an act of evil is required.

The nature of evil, its origins and its relations to the divine realm are questions that Jewish philosophers and Kabbalists were interested in. Kabbalists gave different answers to these questions,yet many of them agreed that the roots of evil were to be found within the divine system, and that the power of evil was dependent on an imbalance or disharmony between the Sefirots.

According to many Kabbalists,the source of evil was to be found in the fifth sefirah called Gevurah or Din, judgment or power.One of the earliest Kabbalistic texts, sefer Ha-Bahir,identifies it as Satan and as the attribute of evil.We learn that the Holy One has an attribute whose name is Evil. And it lies to his north.
As it is written,out of the north evil shall break forth. What is it? It has the shape of a left hand,and it has many emissaries, which are all called, evil. Later Kabbalists did not accept this view. For them, the powers of evil emanate from Gevurah, but as long as this sefirah is balanced by the powers of mercy, it is not evil.Gevurah becomes evil from midnight until sunrise.

Nonetheless, when divine judgment is not mitigated by the attribute of mercy,the powers of evil emanate from Gevurah and become independent.According to another perception which is found in one of the sections of the Zohar called the Idra Rabba,evil was formed from imperfect realms that were emanated before the Sefirot and were destroyed because they did not have a feminine counterpart.

The Zohar proposes that an allusion to this imbalanced realms can be found in Genesis 36 verse 31. "These are the kings who reigned in the land of Edom before any king reigned over the Israelites." The Zohar explains that the kings of the Israelites are the Sefirots and interprets the kings of Edom as the powers of Evil that preceded them. Isaac Luria and his disciples further developed this idea,claiming the potential for evil already existed in the En Sof, before the zimtzum.( the process of creation by "contracting" his Ein Sof (infinite) light in order to allow for a "conceptual space" in which finite and seemingly independent realms could exist.) According to some of Luria disciples the roots of judgment were concealed within the infinite Divine light.

Hope this helps in some way.
Woe if I reveal,Woe if I do not reveal...
violetstar
Forum Member
Forum Member
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:13 am
Location: UK

Re: Mainstream occult ideas that you consider really pernici

Postby Cybernetic_Jazz » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:53 pm

It helps explain that a lot of what's going on in Kabbalah, at a minimum even if it weren't literally correct, is an attempt to yoke the universe into concepts and unite some human system of understanding to nature and deify certain collections of function with similitude - ie. give them conscious personalities - in order that they could be civilized.

I've heard in different places that the experience of samadhi had a lot of influence over the philosophy and so they came to the conclusion that the joy and bliss of the one central light was largely surrounded by apparent meaninglessness or something close to it. If they were as abstract and non-committal perhaps as Buddhists in that they meant YHVH only in the most abstract 'what would we call paranirvana' kind of sense I would leave it go.

I do think there's a cultural clash though in a lot of the west, I especially notice this here in the US, where a lot of people have made Rosicrucianism sort of their fundamentalist Christianity and I have noticed a lot of the orders I've been a member of do believe the whole concept that every experience in your life is an interaction between you and God but even though few of them are ostensibly Christian what remains of their baggage still seems to do a lot of the interpreting on that - ie. they seem to internalize a bit the idea that all of the good and bad things in their lives must have a meaning that reflects back on them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I think you're saying that this phrase is just more slippery than incorrect because it was originated by people with a much more abstract definition of God. That could be, I just think we're doing a number on ourselves with it in the west.
You don't have to do a thing perfect, just relentlessly.
User avatar
Cybernetic_Jazz
Forum Member
Forum Member
 
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:12 pm
Location: On a play date with the Universe.

Re: Mainstream occult ideas that you consider really pernici

Postby violetstar » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:03 pm

Well,in this abstract story the Bride is seduced by the lustful Serpent and he defiles her.The Bridegroom flees lest she now defiles him.Meanwhile,everything they had built has been destroyed.In order to resolve this,God has no choice but to punish the Bride after which she is purified but in doing so intrinsically punishes the innocent Groom-which is an act of evil.

At the time when the powerful Serpent on high awakens,because of the sins of this world,he dwells and unites with the female, and defiles Her.The Male departs from her,because she was defiled,and she is called impure.It is not proper for the Male to come close to Her,for woe if he becomes impure by Her when She is defiled.
The powerful Serpent on high has awoken,and poured his filth in a place he shouldn't have,uniting with the female.And the hair of the male grows,and the female is defiled,and her hair grows long,and her fingernails grow long.Then judgment begins to emerge in the world and everything becomes defiled,as it is written "for he has defiled the Lord's Sanctuary.God's sanctuary is defiled because of humans sins."

The Serpent on high is the demonic male figure, Satan or Samael.The female which he defiles and the male who separates from the female are the masculine and feminine Sefirot: Tiferet and Malkhut.Zohar describes how when the power of evil awakens and becomes strong,he can penetrate the divine system.Then he dominates the divine female,contaminates and defiles her,and thus causes a separation between the divine male and divine female.

When Malkhut is dominated and defiled by Satan,she becomes a demonic figure herself,and her hair and finger nails grow wild.Thus,then stern judgments govern the world and God's sanctuary,the Temple in Jerusalem is destroyed and defiled.According to the Zohar, human sins are the reasons for the dramatic event that it describes,the Awakening of the Serpent on high,the Defilement of the Divine Female,and the Destruction of the Temple.
When the Serpent sleeps Malkhut and Tiferet are reunited and the Temple restored.However,at midnight Gevurah again becomes evil and its demons seek opportunity to shatter the two vessels again.The way to thwart this eternally impending rift according to Judaic belief is through dedication to God,prayers sacrifices and observances.Central to that belief is the idea that damage to God's emnations can be healed through acts of goodness on earth.Other cultures have similar beliefs but the Kabbalist also believed that God sometimes needed a blessing himself.

A fascinating story found in the Babylonian Talmud tells us of the high priest,Rabbi Ishmael, who met God inthe inner sanctuary of the temple during the Yom Kippur service.According to the story,which is found in Tractate Brakhot,God asked the high priest to bless him.
In the story,it is God who is asking for a blessing from a human being.The blessing the high priest offers God is,"May your mercy suppress your anger and your mercy prevail over your other attributes,so that you deal with your children according to the attribute of mercy and limit your strict judgment."

The gist of the story is that God needs human blessing in order to increase his mercy and overcome his anger and strict judgment.In turn this exempts him from committing acts of evil.
Woe if I reveal,Woe if I do not reveal...
violetstar
Forum Member
Forum Member
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:13 am
Location: UK

Re: Mainstream occult ideas that you consider really pernici

Postby Cybernetic_Jazz » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:29 am

I'm starting to wonder then if Qabalah, even if abstracted, synchretic, and big-tent-hippy, still owes enough of it's thinking to that to where I'll find myself increasingly unable to relate to it.

When I hear about serpents I can't help thinking we're talking about analogies for Fohat, which makes me then ask what seems like the obvious question. Kabbalah as far as I can tell is a pantheistic system. If Kallah merged with some sort of energy there isn't any room for it to be properly 'satanic' (at least in any Christian sense) in that it couldn't be foreign to God, and perhaps the only story that makes much sense at all to account for that, at least for me, is the idea that what we call 'God' is still expanding outward, still metabolizing what's really an infinite or near infinite plain of entropy, and where God's borders of harmony mix with that entropy you might have a world with something like good and evil mixed and evil really only seems to amount to antisocial/anti-civilizational urges that come from prior runs of evolution, ie. habits that made one heck of a stud or alpha chimp but make for tyranny and retrograde motion in civil society. It's a bit like the first taste of a new plane is quite bitter, it's the first twitching of either RNA or something like it, from there billions of years of cruelty, cannibalism, and barbarism ensue until something intelligent enough to organize it into something better arises, starts building larger feedback loops where the sort of protoconscious 'stuff' in their vicinity starts acting like a buffer to help keep them from destroying themselves and starting from nothing again once the technology gets precarious enough (like it has in the last hundred years or so), and from then on the planetary egregore matures, society unifies, lots of painful fits and purges still happen as past strategies for survival are deemed dangerous and culled, and from there who knows exactly how things meld. Some people have said space seeding, ie. that we're in something that's becoming but not yet God - it makes a certain kind of sense if information is so entwined with spacetime, matter, etc..

A lot of what happens in between all of that of course involves exquisite agony, barbarous stupidity, cruelty, and domination. The increase in numbers, what it takes to be top dog or control one's environment, all of these things seem to have a hand in turning ambition to at least pronounced cruelty and even baseness.

It's really tough for me to think of another story that fits with with the Kabbalistic narrative, and then trying to fit it in it seems like there's an awful lot of Madonna/Whore complex in it. I can't take it in the literal, ie. if it were simple moral curmudgeonry it would be stupid, and who knows - considering past centuries it could be nothing more than that. To try and sensibly abstract it out though I have to put my Jordan Peterson hat and start talking about order, chaos, and clean rooms. The dark goddess, really any of them whether Tiamat, Lilith, Kali, etc., would fit as something like a ground level energy meant to bring life without necessarily bringing order because without at least some cultivation of that there's no place for order to latch on - and order, or really the whole Logos impulse would have nothing more than kelp and lichens to try and bring its will through - to which it probably wouldn't get all that far, which who knows - that's a good reason for the bridegroom to step away until he can actually do something with what's there. I also have to say, Lilith's been interesting to me because the story of her as Adam's first wife sounded like it wasn't a discussion of an insubordinate wife but of a natural world full of animals that were dominating and eating men and women, that Eve might be an analogy for the start of the agricultural revolution. Similarly I think of working with Lilith as a goddess as working with someone who U-bends the perigee of energy, as it sinks and putrefies it she transforms it, a bit like composting certain kinds of psychic energy, and that pet black snake that's wrapped around her is likely none other than that energy on the return, ie. that she's quite akin to a western Kali in being not just a dark goddess but a goddess whose in the business of managing power and teaching people how to cultivate and regulate it.

Hopefully I'm not abstracting this stuff into something it isn't, guys like Dillahunty or Dawkins could be right and a lot of it could just be blunt literal backwardness of human thought at the time. I have to at least partially decline their analysis because for there to be as much congruence across cultures in these stories, again going the Peterson or Weinstein direction here a bit, this has to be in a way channeling the voice of nature itself and telling us something about the story of evolution, the consciousness of evolution, the flavor of evolution, and when we were in our sort of magical dream time culture where the hunter gatherers had their tribal shaman our forms of more discursive logic were still in the oven and, like the words Nietzche mentioned of Sophocles saying of Aeschylus - they operated subconsciously but did what was right. For as much as people try to invent pure fiction at times I don't think we'd have the faintest idea how to, and similarly these tales I think have to come from somewhere even if trying to deal with them at an archetypal level can be daunting.
You don't have to do a thing perfect, just relentlessly.
User avatar
Cybernetic_Jazz
Forum Member
Forum Member
 
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:12 pm
Location: On a play date with the Universe.

Re: Mainstream occult ideas that you consider really pernici

Postby Spida » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:10 am

I suppose I am in the minority when it comes to actual definitions as to what God is, i.e. I spend my time trying to rationalize a God that functions mechanically and creatively as opposed to anthropomorphically; a creator God in lieu of a personal God. Of course I have the luxury of doing so since life doesn't have any hardships to speak of, and I don't require any answers from God as to why my life appears to have been dealt a sub-standard hand that requires some sort of explanation or resolution - aside from all of my injuries from years of MMA Sparring, but that is my own doing. So other than that all is well, and I have nothing to complain about really.

I believe that God establishes the best possible system for creation that does not account for each individual aspect, but as a whole. And again this would not be analogous to some mundane mental anthropomorphic process, but a divine one which of course transcends human thought in some obscure way. Perhaps as just doing or knowing what is optimum without the error prone thought process, or trial and error type thing.

I believe the pieces of the puzzle have fallen together for me rather well since I started my contemplation from a science/theoretical physics entry point which is more heavy on the objective rather than the subjective processes. I then branched out into a mystical/syncretic paradigm from there and got really lucky in choosing Qabalah since both Models begin with a Zero Volume Existence, e.g. I can make no distinction between a "Singularity" and a "Primordial Point" which I believe to be paramount, and I haven't run into any snags really. So I feel I have chosen the correct path.

Anyway, I don't believe the Divine Source is the type of existence that will yield any compassion or explanation for a lack thereof, but perhaps lower down in the universal hierarchy where there are beings that are closer to us where we can relate more to each other, e.g. Angels, et cetera perhaps, but I don't have any relevant type of experience with such beings in this regard, and can't say the results would be any more rewarding. So maybe we are on or own to resolve any shortcomings.
User avatar
Spida
Forum Member
Forum Member
 
Posts: 1682
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:48 pm
Location: New England

Re: Mainstream occult ideas that you consider really pernici

Postby Cybernetic_Jazz » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:12 am

Spida wrote:Of course I have the luxury of doing so since life doesn't have any hardships to speak of, and I don't require any answers from God as to why my life appears to have been dealt a sub-standard hand that requires some sort of explanation or resolution - aside from all of my injuries from years of MMA Sparring...

Ahh! A fellow martial artist! I knew I liked ya for a reason. What styles?

Spida wrote:I believe that God establishes the best possible system for creation that does not account for each individual aspect, but as a whole. And again this would not be analogous to some mundane mental anthropomorphic process, but a divine one which of course transcends human thought in some obscure way. Perhaps as just doing or knowing what is optimum without the error prone thought process, or trial and error type thing.

One of the things that was helpful for me was going to a BOTA retreat and talking to the minister as well as some of the other veterans with the order and I think they'd agree also that they, and most kabbalistic/qabalistic orders don't interpret the tree of life as a deific system that interacts with us in a typically Abrahamic or self-conscious or humanly attentive way. That's a huge relief because I really can't look out at the universe, or even within, and see a supreme guiding force that would do that. Angels, gods, goddesses, saints, sure, but a very clear or direct feedback system - at least not without rigorous interpretation and having excluded most straight-forward or obvious interpretations - doesn't seem to be available to us (and perhaps its true that no such thing does exist necessarily unless enough human adepts invent such a thing).


Spida wrote:I believe the pieces of the puzzle have fallen together for me rather well since I started my contemplation from a science/theoretical physics entry point which is more heavy on the objective rather than the subjective processes. I then branched out into a mystical/syncretic paradigm from there and got really lucky in choosing Qabalah since both Models begin with a Zero Volume Existence, e.g. I can make no distinction between a "Singularity" and a "Primordial Point" which I believe to be paramount, and I haven't run into any snags really. So I feel I have chosen the correct path.

The way I'm thinking of it there may be no ultimate meaning, there may every well be multiverses and this particular universe could simply be on of infinitely many. Still, it's clearly - at least as far as I can tell - very haunted in content and listening to Gordon White and Conner Habib recently I can relate quite well to what they called animistic essentialism - ie. a bit like naturalism in its feel and structure but really with a panspcyhist twist.

Spida wrote:Anyway, I don't believe the Divine Source is the type of existence that will yield any compassion or explanation for a lack thereof, but perhaps lower down in the universal hierarchy where there are beings that are closer to us where we can relate more to each other, e.g. Angels, et cetera perhaps, but I don't have any relevant type of experience with such beings in this regard, and can't say the results would be any more rewarding. So maybe we are on or own to resolve any shortcomings.

A couple thoughts on this:

1) Mark Stavish, in his Sanctus Spiritual Fire lectures on Youtube (Institute for Hermetic Studies channel) relates that Agrippa wrote about the saints and that many magicians, as well as Catholics, have sought just that - ie. what's closer to us and more relatable, and it makes sense.

2) I've actually found some of the dark goddesses, especially Lilith, quite approachable and I think there's something to the notion that you can examine your life, examine what you need, examine who'd already like what you have in you, start touching base with them increasingly over the course of a year or two and the relationship can flourish. That said, for the moment I'm still not the kind of person who typically has something like verbal conversations with said deities that I remember. I'm more the type of person who'll get woken up at 3AM for a snuggle, sometimes have something shooting itself in through the top of my head or trying to work its way into the soles of my feet (the later are usually just annoyances and occasionally I will hear them verbally threaten me before they wake me up), and at other times throughout the day I'll get loud/notable ringing in one ear or the other. What I still still have yet to work out is what it means to have the right ear ring rather than the left, or vice a verse, and if that says anything about what's talking to you or whether its simply an arbitrary thing.

Any which way I do have some additional good news - I was working 60-80 hours a week (and driving two hours round trip five days a week) for work for the last three or four months pretty solid and it looks like I might not only have a free weekend now but this craziness might even be dialing back to 40-50 hours of work per week again. I'm hopeful that that's the case, some of the stress will be relieved, and I'll be back to doing what I like to do in my free time - like martial arts, reading philosophy (occult and otherwise), studying my monographs, and maybe even getting a spell in or getting back into music production here and there when I have the chance.
You don't have to do a thing perfect, just relentlessly.
User avatar
Cybernetic_Jazz
Forum Member
Forum Member
 
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:12 pm
Location: On a play date with the Universe.


Return to Reason and Unreason

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Bridge by mehdiplugins.com