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Metaphysically understanding the destruction of people

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Metaphysically understanding the destruction of people

Postby Cybernetic_Jazz » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:04 pm

This got me thinking a bit more, especially as I've had to really wrap my mind around the idea in the last few years that not only does merit and effort not requisitely yield success but people can be absolutely destroyed for their best. I like the idea of calling that last idea a symbolic truth, ie. that you act as if its true to guide yourself to have merit and put in effort but you know full well - at least by the time you grow up - that we're morally in the cold of outer space and there are plenty of ways that such notions and efforts still hit a brick wall with a universe that isn't even remotely anthropocentric. In that sense life sometimes just feeds people head-first directly into the plastic shredder. It would be one thing maybe to have ten seconds of unbearable pain as such but there are whole lives that can be lived where that destruction of a person is stretched out from a relative high-point in early childhood on a downward ramp through the shredding blades and very little might be left by the time they find their biological end.

So out of curiosity - thinking of that in a metaphysical sense - how would you describe what's happening in that case? Does it have any sort of meaning, is the universe just amoral math in motion where sometimes the math is pleasant, sometimes it's really ugly, and being alive amounts to a dice-roll whether you'll get beaten with the ugly stick? Is that an indication that the naive materialists are right at least about morality and nature being an oxymoron when put together and does that also apply on the metaphysical levels of being?

I get the impression that a lot of people are tough enough to survive nearly anything, but - there's a catch. They have to have the right story that gets them through it. Without that right story they're as likely to fall to the shame, fall to the judgments, and fall to the snow-balling effect I think of as social stigma and punishment where when one starts to head into hard times people see them heading into hard times, assume like Job's friends that they must have deserved it if they get screwed enough, and rather than any sort of support base or prevention of that fall coming together it actually fuels and expedites a total fall to rock bottom. What I do understand is that people are primarily ape, there's a little bit extra that comes in through the heart chakra and might reside in the mind as well but otherwise there's not a whole lot chimpanzees do that we don't still do (or with added telecommunications capacity do far more brutally and effectively). To fall behind your friends, to watch other people succeed as you run on not just an eternal treadmill but one where you run twice as fast not even to stay in the same place but to still be farther behind but just not as far as you would be if you didn't run - surviving that morally takes a hell of a good story and a heck of a lot of personal conviction, I mean you have to be able to not just think from first-principles but feel from them and become the type of person who truly, absolutely, doesn't care what people think of them.

Not sure to what degree people here can relate to these questions but any thoughts in particular? I get this might be a tough question because among culture, and possibly a lot among 'manifesting reality' types of people the only issues worth considering are those of the winners/victors. Technically though I think it can happen to just about anyone and I'd love to think, especially if the deck is stacked, that there's more for people to do than just honor suicide themselves if life doesn't go exactly according to plan. If the later were the case I'd have to say that we're still in a very backwards and pathetic culture, one that's more bent on stabbing people to take their stuff than worry about how such 'devil take the hindmost' approaches to life retard human progress.
You don't have to do a thing perfect, just relentlessly.
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Re: Metaphysically understanding the destruction of people

Postby blindwake » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:38 am

This is difficult to me because there's multiple perspectives to consider. For example, if you've ever almost died, you'd probably have noticed that as your mental faculties start to shut down, it becomes apparent that the things you take for granted as being you are not to be taken for granted. It'd be like if you had been seeing a face in the moon for ages, only to realize that there is no face, only your interpretation.

I'm biased to believe that the universe is mostly neutral. I find it hard to think otherwise, because it seems natural that for every good thing there's an opposite bad thing. In that sense, I see it like a roller coaster ride. Maybe it gets intense at some points, but later you often find the bumpy parts nostalgic. Rather than think of things as "why? that's not fair!" think of it as "it could have happened, so it did". There's no point in justifying suffering any more than there's any point in arguing with yourself about your own stupid decisions: it's not your job to choose the "perfect" choice, but to understand your choices regardless.

I don't believe in "toughness". I don't think you can enter a difficult scenario without knowing you'll win or not already. No matter how hard you "try" to be strong, you just are who you are. It's like Dungeons and Dragons where people have to do stat checks with dice; you don't make up those traits on the fly.

If you can unsee the optical illusion that is your own ego, just for a second, you'll probably know what I mean. It's just a script. The actors do what they do because they think they have to. Part of the process is exhausting all the possible scripts until the actors understand enough to do something else.

Here's how you can test this: visualize something arbitrary, now apply an arbitrary meaning. Note that the visualization in no way implies the meaning, it's just a convention. Keep doing that until every time you see the visual, you automatically think of the meaning. That's why you pull your hand away when you accidentally touch a hot stove. That's why you close your eyes when you're tired. The feelings don't mean anything until they make you do something; it's just convention.

If you reach near death, your fear reflex actually seems to cut out because the "human" part of experience partially disappears. Pain stops hurting because the human doesn't respond to it anymore, etc.

So to me, the destruction of a person just means making them no longer act like themselves. That's not a bad thing. It means the good guys can try being the bad guys, and vice versa. Or maybe some people want to try being the ocean, ants, or anything else.

Maybe this is all abstract. My point is that for any reason / understanding you achieve, it'll only seem right to you. The difficulty is that we apply meanings to things that don't have intrinsic meanings. That's not to say everything is meaningless, quite the opposite, that everything must mean something to everyone, like it or not. The point is just that there is no single meaning.
If all brains are made roughly the same, then why do I perceive through my own? What special characteristic places me in this skull?
I do not move throughout the world. The engines do not move the ship, but the universe.
The law of synonyms: my experience is synonymous with my brain, I change my experience to change my brain. so I change the physical with my thoughts.
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Re: Metaphysically understanding the destruction of people

Postby Kath » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:10 pm

Seems this is about aspirations vs. reality.

No detailed plan survives first contact with the enemy. If anyone wants to get out the seppuku knife over that, then they're just conserving oxygen for realists.

Sometimes the universe beats you, and you let it slide.
Sometimes the universe gives you a break, and you take it.
Sometimes the universe gets out the beat stick, and you do not let it slide.
The last case, is when you 'enter the game' so to speak, and roll your Will vs. the fates.
I would submit, that unlike an rpg where there are maximum stats, that the only limit on your Will is the limits you accept.
If you have a "then we will fight in the shade" attitude, you can roll shockingly high.

You may not win. But you can at least usually go out in a blaze of glory. Of all possible ways a mortal existence can end, there's probably no better one.
Don't underestimate the potency of Will to manifest though. Particularly if one's Will is a single refined diamond of self, un-fractured, and fully self aware.

Or, you can slip on a wet floor and crack your skull on the bathroom sink, irregardless of your gusto.
In 2008 I very very nearly died from something dull and mundane. No sinks were involved, but so to no opportunity for victory or epic last stands or meaningful endings or last words...
I was certain I was going to die, in the immediate sense. Fortunately, i was mistaken.
I had 3 thoughts. One, was "well I guess that's that." Two, was more a feeling, a sinking sensation in the pit of the stomach, not fear exactly, but mildly unpleasant. Three, was a sense of all of the things in my life, attachments, pulling at me like strings. Both "unfinished dreams" things I wanted in my life but never got to do, AND attachments to things that were in my life, even silly attachments to objects, will the food in my fridge just spoil? That sort of thing. Like a sort of web of needs, wants, connections, responsibilities, relationships, property, etc. no one of which standing out distinctly, but cumulatively pulling like a thousand threads. The subtle feel of it left me with the impression that it would have been much worse if I had OCD. Perhaps it illustrates that we all have "some" OCD, which we allow to flourish, so that we don't do things like leave our purse behind at the mall. But it did a bit drill home the idea that we don't own things, they own us.

I find I feel a little bit distasteful towards the sensation of those strings. Not that one should avoid enjoying value in their life, but that I didn't quite like the manner in which I was (on a visceral level which I was not until that exact moment conscious of) connected to the myriad variables that define my living existence. It felt 'off', misaligned.

The last thing was a searing white-out pain, as I experienced about 50 g's of force for a moment. And then it was just sparkling white as the pain kinda went past capacity to process it and i was just weightless in sparkling whiteness. That much force is enough to cause bruising in places that didn't even bump into anything, so it didn't feel good. But the whiteness receded, and sensations gradually started to filter back in. First pain again, then a sense of time, self, place, injury, etc. There was blood in my eyes so i couldn't see, and so i was very attached to finding out if being blinded was among my injuries. was that yet another string? One I forgot to fret over when i thought i was going to be smooshed? an attachment to vision?

What does any of that mean? I can't say.
One thing I'd point out, is that "meaning" is a construct in the mind of an observer, not a trait in that which is observed.
So if I did tell you what it means, it would really just be opinionated prothelytizing, as is all defining of meaning.

I do feel as though a near death experience should have had a more profound impact. Like I went through something you generally only get to experience once. And it should have some deep deep aspect to it. It wasn't totally uninstructive, but I've had more profound sensations of epiphany without smashing a bunch of bones. Eventually I'll get to see again, maybe I blinked during the punchline.

As far as satisfaction with life while you're alive...
"life sucks, the trick is to ignore it and have fun anyway"
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