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Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby TheSpoonyOne » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:24 pm

All right, I have heard many different theories on this subject, and cannot be sure which is correct, or the most commonly accepted. Some people say that Satan, Lucifer, and the Devil, are three separate entities, while some say they are the same. I've heard others say that Satan and the Devil are the same while others believe Lucifer and Satan are the same being. Never Lucifer and Satan though...

I just wanted to know what people here thought on the topic. Illuminate my mind a bit.
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby Uman » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:44 pm

This distinction has always puzzled me as well. For a long while I considered Lucifer and Satan to be the same entity - this is based on my exoteric Christian upbringing. After later biblical analysis, studying the Judeo/Christian texts and Midrashim i've changed my opinion somewhat. I'm thinking the two represent a type of dialectic whole - [notwithstanding their untoward textual description] - like the sun wrapped in clouds? Lucifer has been translated as light bearer [approximation] while Satan is simply translated as adversary. Perhaps there is a deeper meaning and the two are in fact one?

my two cents
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby TheSpoonyOne » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:09 pm

Uman wrote:This distinction has always puzzled me as well. For a long while I considered Lucifer and Satan to be the same entity - this is based on my exoteric Christian upbringing. After later biblical analysis, studying the Judeo/Christian texts and Midrashim i've changed my opinion somewhat. I'm thinking the two represent a type of dialectic whole - [notwithstanding their untoward textual description] - like the sun wrapped in clouds? Lucifer has been translated as light bearer [approximation] while Satan is simply translated as adversary. Perhaps there is a deeper meaning and the two are in fact one?

my two cents


So what you are suggesting, is that though it is stated outright, it is implied? I would accept that, had it not been for the Bible being written by, well, man. The meaning of the original text has been so twisted and bastardized, that it almost impossible to tell what the text originally meant, or said for that matter.
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby Uman » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:19 pm

They can change the words around all they want but the Truth is in the symbolism, can't hide what you can't see. But don't take my word for it, in fact don't take anyone's word for it until you discover it for *yourself




*that would include crazed fundy occultists with da morals ;)
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby TheSpoonyOne » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:23 pm

Uman wrote:They can change the words around all they want but the Truth is in the symbolism, can't hide what you can't see. But don't take my word for it, in fact don't take anyone's word for it until you discover it for *yourself




*that would include crazed fundy occultists with da morals ;)


Well personally, I believe in the three entities theory, but have no proof. I wanted to get a sense others thought on the subject. And I am definitely not going to try to communicate with them until I gain more experience in Magick. Specifically banishing.
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby Uman » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:14 am

TheSpoonyOne wrote:
Uman wrote:They can change the words around all they want but the Truth is in the symbolism, can't hide what you can't see. But don't take my word for it, in fact don't take anyone's word for it until you discover it for *yourself




*that would include crazed fundy occultists with da morals ;)


Well personally, I believe in the three entities theory, but have no proof. I wanted to get a sense others thought on the subject. And I am definitely not going to try to communicate with them until I gain more experience in Magick. Specifically banishing.



A very responsible and prudent approach.
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby TheSpoonyOne » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:55 am

Uman wrote:
TheSpoonyOne wrote:
Uman wrote:They can change the words around all they want but the Truth is in the symbolism, can't hide what you can't see. But don't take my word for it, in fact don't take anyone's word for it until you discover it for *yourself




*that would include crazed fundy occultists with da morals ;)


Well personally, I believe in the three entities theory, but have no proof. I wanted to get a sense others thought on the subject. And I am definitely not going to try to communicate with them until I gain more experience in Magick. Specifically banishing.



A very responsible and prudent approach.


Actually, I'm just not fond of the thought of getting killed... Or having my soul torn to pieces... Or subjected to torture, via Rebecca Black's singing... Or all three. I'm not sure what I would be dealing with, so I decided. TO leave it be. In my experience, curiosity kills a lot more than cats.
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby Uman » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:57 am

TheSpoonyOne wrote:
Actually, I'm just not fond of the thought of getting killed... Or having my soul torn to pieces... Or subjected to torture, via Rebecca Black's singing... Or all three. I'm not sure what I would be dealing with, so I decided. TO leave it be. In my experience, curiosity kills a lot more than cats.


That's funny. [grin2] Apparently it's something you never get used to, getting killed that is.

On a more serious note, i met a young man in my travels who thought it might be cool or fun to summon demons while drinking and getting high. He had no magic training whatsoever. He went through half a grimoire [not sure which one]. He said nothing happened immediately it was gradual change. First he started to become paranoid and began believing that people were out to get him. It was a feeling of continual anxiety. Then he began to visualize images of brutality like faces which had been destroyed through physical violence these images would be accompanied by surges in adrenaline and he thought at some of those moments that he could literally rip someones heart out and gorge himself on the flesh. He told me that he thought he was going to hurt his family so he left his home and took to the streets to protect them. He also said that he felt like he needed to hide from people out of fear that they would hurt him or he would hurt them - these feelings all the while accompanied by a paranoic anxiety. I only interacted with this guy for a few days and the last i saw him he was talking to pigeons and chasing them around on the sidewalk.

The moral of the story is don't open any doors you can't close.
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby TheSpoonyOne » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:36 am

Uman wrote:
TheSpoonyOne wrote:
Actually, I'm just not fond of the thought of getting killed... Or having my soul torn to pieces... Or subjected to torture, via Rebecca Black's singing... Or all three. I'm not sure what I would be dealing with, so I decided. TO leave it be. In my experience, curiosity kills a lot more than cats.


That's funny. [grin2] Apparently it's something you never get used to, getting killed that is.

On a more serious note, i met a young man in my travels who thought it might be cool or fun to summon demons while drinking and getting high. He had no magic training whatsoever. He went through half a grimoire [not sure which one]. He said nothing happened immediately it was gradual change. First he started to become paranoid and began believing that people were out to get him. It was a feeling of continual anxiety. Then he began to visualize images of brutality like faces which had been destroyed through physical violence these images would be accompanied by surges in adrenaline and he thought at some of those moments that he could literally rip someones heart out and gorge himself on the flesh. He told me that he thought he was going to hurt his family so he left his home and took to the streets to protect them. He also said that he felt like he needed to hide from people out of fear that they would hurt him or he would hurt them - these feelings all the while accompanied by a paranoic anxiety. I only interacted with this guy for a few days and the last i saw him he was talking to pigeons and chasing them around on the sidewalk.

The moral of the story is don't open any doors you can't close.


I guess I don't fear death itself... Just what comes after it. The act of dying is unavoidable, and so should not be feared. However, if I were to be eternally tortured by these spirits I'm trying to envoke... Yeah...
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby sinistor666@gmail.com » Thu May 09, 2013 5:30 am

TheSpoonyOne wrote:All right, I have heard many different theories on this subject, and cannot be sure which is correct, or the most commonly accepted. Some people say that Satan, Lucifer, and the Devil, are three separate entities, while some say they are the same. I've heard others say that Satan and the Devil are the same while others believe Lucifer and Satan are the same being. Never Lucifer and Satan though...

I just wanted to know what people here thought on the topic. Illuminate my mind a bit.


"Satan" comes from the Egyptian Set. But, as Westerners, when we think "Satan" we are thinking about the Judaic/Christian version. So...
In Ancient Judaism there was not one Satan - there were many. Anything that stood in the way of God's will was considered a "Satan." In the Old Testament, a Satan is only really mentioned twice, the most notable of these two occurrences is the Book of Job. Here, the Satan is called "Ha-Satan" or "THE Satan." While there were many Satans, Ha-Satan was the one in charge of the others. He wasn't evil though, he was simply another angel in God's service.

Lucifer is a Latin word from the roots Lux and Ferrus. It is found in the Old Testament Book of Isaiah. This Book was written in Hebrew and the author did not know Latin. So, how do you figure one Latin word (Lucifer) got into an All-Hebrew Book of Isaiah? It was added in by Jerome when he translated the Bible from Hebrew into Latin. "How art thou fallen, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" Originally said, "How art thou fallen, O Nebuchadnezzar, son the morning!" And was, of course, referring to the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar. Jerome confused the verse to be a reference to the Devil and thus Lucifer (Light Bearer) became a name for the Devil, and from this the concept of Lucifer being a fallen angel was born.

Returning to Satan, it wasn't until the Book of Revelations that Satan was equated with the fallen angel Lucifer. In the Gospels, Jesus is quoted as saying "And I saw Satan fall from the heavens like Lightening." Jesus was talking about whatever stood in the will of God, rather than an angel falling from the sky. BUT John of Patmos, who wrote Revelations, took this verse to mean that Satan was a fallen angel (fallen from the heavens like lightening). And so he wrote the story about Michael the Archangel throwing Satan from the Heavens. Later, the Church Fathers linked John's fallen angel to Jerome's Lucifer...and this is where we get the story that Satan, aka Lucifer, was cast out of Heaven by the Angel Michael and is now on the earth in the form of the Devil.

So Satan isn't Lucifer or the Devil. In fact, when taken from the perspective of Judeo-Christianity, Satan is not even relevant - he's just another angel in God's company.
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby Lucifer91 » Sun May 26, 2013 4:03 pm

All I know is that Lucifer means enlightenment. IDK about satan or devil.
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby Belial » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:36 pm

Generally it's more appropriate to equate the idea of adversary with Sammael, also known as "the dragon", or whatever horrendous interpretation of that one might have.It fits the proposition of the position a lot better than Lucifer, even though Lucifer generally seems to be more popular.Personally I consider the concepts of Satan or the devil to be more of a conceptual title or label, though I find in many interpretations it appears people just wrap up a bunch of qualities from various scary entities and call it the devil, ironically neither Sammael nor Lucifer are beings of darkness.

Personally, given the choice between a fiery advocate of free rights and a pretty illuminator of wisdom, I would choose terrible darkness with unrelenting evil and self indulgence, but that's just my personal preference.

Back on topic, I consider Lucifer an actual entity, but I consider the other two concepts, and as I voiced earlier, I just feel Sammael fits one of those two concepts best.I don't feel either of them would eat you or tear your soul apart really, more than likely it's the things that aren't them you'd have to watch for.As long as you don't violate any of their ethics or ordinances you're probably alright.

Just to emphasize once more, if you're considering any dealings with these, it's important to make sure you don't get any imposters stopping by for lunch.Thus research is always advisable.
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby DawningSun777 » Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:57 pm

Satan - Well, ha-satan is Hebrew for "the adversary", something I assume to be well known. In Judaism, God is not a part of the whole but the whole. In religions like Christianity you have good and evil, and they are quite separate. During Jewish time in Babylon Judaism was exposed to Zoroastrianism, which is very adamant about good and evil being separate. However, this is not the original view of the Jewish God. I was raised Jewish and I can tell you we are taught that God creates good and evil (God says this himself in Isaiah), that God is vengeful, the God is jealous, etc. The myths support this idea of God, not one of an all loving or forgiving being. Judaism also can be described as elitist, though I do not mean this in a bad way (I am still proud of my Jewish blood, believer or not). Hell, conversion to Judaism takes multiple years! On top of this, the Jewish people are supposed to be God's chosen people. There is hardly even talk of an afterlife because the purpose is to honor / serve / obey God in life. What I am getting at is the God tests his followers, expects a lot from them. He did this through angels who would assume the title of "adversary" (Satan). This was not an enemy of God or man but a tester.

The Devil - the devil is a Christian entity. Christianity often claims it stems from Judaism but what it actually did was pervert Jewish ideas and texts and then convince the world their interpretation is the correct way. This included taking the concept of an adversary to the extreme.

For example, where is it said that the serpent in Eden is evil in Genesis? I have yet to find it. In fact, I always saw the story as God giving mankind a choice; reason or submission. Adam and Eve made a choice and were gifted / cursed with reason. They did not handle it, cowering in fear and being ashamed of their natural nakedness, and so God kicked them from the garden to keep them from the Tree of Life, a path to enlightenment requiring intense reasoning, commitment, study, etc that Adam and Eve were obviously not capable of. It never says Adam's first wife was banned from the garden...

Anyways, I digress. The devil is the devil, Satan is just the most common name Christianity calls him by. I guess it works since the devil is the adversary of man, but it is not exactly what is meant in Judaism by "satan".

Lucifer - Lucifer is not related to the devil or Satan except through misinterpretation. In the KJV of the bible, the term "Helel" (shining one), a name used for the Babylonian king in Isaiah 14:12, was translated to "Lucifer". This come from Latin "Lux" (light) "Ferre" (bearer), a concept likely associated with the morning star / the planet Venus. In Revelation, Jesus even calls himself "the bright morning star", a contradiction most miss ("whaaat, Jesus was Satan?!").

Lucifer is not actually even a name, it is a title. Not only this, but it is only in Latin. Prometheus in Greek mythology is analogous to the term "light-bearer" as he brought the fire of the Gods. Khepri in Egypt literally pushes the sun into the sky after Ra successfully defeats Apep an Duat. The list goes on and on. This is why Luciferians, like myself, are very outspoken against the association between "Luciferianism" and Satanism. They are, in no way, connected except through ignorance (darkness).
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby thestudyingalchemist » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:07 am

Lucifer means litterally "the son of light" wich in satanism is also "satan". Satanism has nothing to do with evil and good, in ebraic satan means enemy, and the judeochristian impose us this name. At the origin satanism (well it has another name) judaism, christianism, islamism were the same philosophy but they divide themselves because some groups wanted power so they declare the others as enemy "satan". The christians says that we are the devil but in fact they dont know anything about us and call everybody that doesnt agree with them an antichrist so thats just a stupid cultural propaganta that unfortunatly never changed and I'm very sad that people can't see what our philosophy is really about.
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby Cybernetic_Jazz » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:14 am

sinistor666@gmail.com wrote:Lucifer is a Latin word from the roots Lux and Ferrus. It is found in the Old Testament Book of Isaiah. This Book was written in Hebrew and the author did not know Latin. So, how do you figure one Latin word (Lucifer) got into an All-Hebrew Book of Isaiah? It was added in by Jerome when he translated the Bible from Hebrew into Latin. "How art thou fallen, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" Originally said, "How art thou fallen, O Nebuchadnezzar, son the morning!" And was, of course, referring to the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar. Jerome confused the verse to be a reference to the Devil and thus Lucifer (Light Bearer) became a name for the Devil, and from this the concept of Lucifer being a fallen angel was born.

Returning to Satan, it wasn't until the Book of Revelations that Satan was equated with the fallen angel Lucifer. In the Gospels, Jesus is quoted as saying "And I saw Satan fall from the heavens like Lightening." Jesus was talking about whatever stood in the will of God, rather than an angel falling from the sky. BUT John of Patmos, who wrote Revelations, took this verse to mean that Satan was a fallen angel (fallen from the heavens like lightening). And so he wrote the story about Michael the Archangel throwing Satan from the Heavens. Later, the Church Fathers linked John's fallen angel to Jerome's Lucifer...and this is where we get the story that Satan, aka Lucifer, was cast out of Heaven by the Angel Michael and is now on the earth in the form of the Devil.

A truly bizarre tidbit to throw in on this one (as an RHP'er whose just wanted to blow the dust off the ol' paranoia) is that Revelations hosts another thing that's shockingly strange but rather it's in the letter to the seven churches:

Revelations 2:26-28 wrote:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’[j]—
as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star.

Here we are talking about morning stars again. Even just to read the list of other gifts for overcomers seems to point at a very, very different psychology than anything modern bible-belt covers, such as white stones with secret names (sounds like concepts from Egyptian, Babylonian, Canaanite magic - ie. control by name) or being made an eternal pillar in God's temple which in itself sounds very hmm... immortal and immovable which sits very plushly with neoplatonist and Hermetic ideas of perfection. Add Revelations 4 to that with the telescoping effect of the vision of God and the old cosmic-cross and four elements of the cherubim repeated you very quickly get the impression that it takes a lot of denial to make something properly watered-down and churchy of it (I don't want to quite say it reminds me of a bunch of isolated tribal fetishists worshiping a washer or drier that got dropped on the shore of an island but it feels comparable at times).

Another one even more eye-popping:
Revelations 22:16 wrote:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”


Despite Max Romeo's best intentions he might have been a little confused.
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby Dybbuk » Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:30 am

the word lucifer was used as a title for Jesus Christ too lol
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby Etu Malku » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:03 pm

Lucifer has no place in the Christian paradigm, he is not the Abrahamic Satan and/or Devil.
The word Lucifer is found in only one place in the Christian bible -- Isaiah 14:12 -- but only in the King James and related versions: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning?" The King James Version is based on the Vulgate, the Latin translation of Jerome. Jerome translated the Hebrew helel (bright or brilliant one) as "Lucifer," which was a reasonable Latin equivalent. The association is clearly in regards to King Nebuchadnezzar and is in reference to the Morning Star which is a title that Jesus uses for himself as well (as mentioned just before)
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby Mello23 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:35 pm

I know the post was made a year ago, but thought i would put in my knowlege in as well.


When I grew up I too thought they were all the same person/entity, but as I did some research on my own I learned that its not the case. For start I'll go over the definitions.

--now this is just a simplified version--

Devil-- this is mainly used in christian and other related religion to be another name form for 'Satan' which means chief evil spirit (or the main bad guy in the spiritual tense). Now the word 'devil' can be used to point towards 'Satan' or another demon depending on how you use it. example-- the devil (indicates 'Satan'), a devil (indicates a demon).

Satan-- In the christian an other similar beleifs is the main bad guy in the religion, however, if you look through some more modern Demonolatry Satan is the true creator. (he is everything and nothing)

Lucifer-- One of the biggest mistakes ive seen is how everyone thinks Lucifer is one of the two (satan/Devil), which is not the case AT ALL. Lucifer is a completley different person from Satan, it's hard to see this at first, but when u do a little research it becomes pretty clear. Its is stated clearly in S. Connoly's demonaltry books that Satan and Lucifer are two different beings.


well, theres my thought/info on this [grin]
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby Cybernetic_Jazz » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:39 pm

Etu Malku wrote:Lucifer has no place in the Christian paradigm, he is not the Abrahamic Satan and/or Devil.
The word Lucifer is found in only one place in the Christian bible -- Isaiah 14:12 -- but only in the King James and related versions: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning?" The King James Version is based on the Vulgate, the Latin translation of Jerome. Jerome translated the Hebrew helel (bright or brilliant one) as "Lucifer," which was a reasonable Latin equivalent. The association is clearly in regards to King Nebuchadnezzar and is in reference to the Morning Star which is a title that Jesus uses for himself as well (as mentioned just before)

AFAIK both Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, everyone's twist chapters, are in regard to Tyre. Tyre was brought down when Alexander the Great came through, destroyed the city while the Phoenicians hung out on an island, and the bricks from the city were used to create a land bridge to get to the island where they massacred the Phoenicians. Remnants of that are still visible today, if you Google map southern Lebanon it's that odd peninsula that comprises the city of Sour.
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby ExCineribus » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:10 am

In Jewish commentary that I have read, Lucifer has always been a separate concept from satan/the devil (samael). Lucifer can be tied to Azazel, however (see: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=34061#p480116 for a rough explanation).

One frees us from our sin, and the other accuses of it. Both are obviously necessary (without one, the other wouldn't be needed). In truth, of course, kabbalistic thought shows these may be thought of as manifestations of attributes of the divine (like the sephiroth/pillars of mercy and severity).
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby Cybernetic_Jazz » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:18 am

ExCineribus wrote:In Jewish commentary that I have read, Lucifer has always been a separate concept from satan/the devil (samael). Lucifer can be tied to Azazel, however (see: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=34061#p480116 for a rough explanation).

Very good post in the other thread you just linked. My knowledge of Hebrew is almost all second-hand and there was a lot here I simply wouldn't have caught.

ExCineribus wrote:One frees us from our sin, and the other accuses of it. Both are obviously necessary (without one, the other wouldn't be needed). In truth, of course, kabbalistic thought shows these may be thought of as manifestations of attributes of the divine (like the sephiroth/pillars of mercy and severity).

This sounds a lot like how serpent and messiah are gematrically related? All of this stuff just keeps getting more interesting as I read more about it, particularly from the standpoint that for a while I doubted the claims that Kabbalah was the source of the three Abrahamics but after taking a look at the blatant Hermetic Qabalah that is the communion of saints (minor deities), angels, and Mary/Isis of Catholicism to complement the ToL that piece of it really got nailed down - ie. Catholicism really seems to be a Hermetic Qabalah that forgot what it was. Now that I'm studying the tarot via the Case system I'm seeing even more of the old testament stories figure out this way as well and the multidimensional attributes to the coding of the letters themselves (ie. equalling numbers, words themselves, same addition = correlated meaning, etc.). Seems like the more of this I try to figure out the more I'm able to sort of deflate the misguided myths of documentary hypothesis that love to pretend that the bible was written by a German engineer in the 20th century to be read in a German tech manual or history book kind of manner.
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby ExCineribus » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:10 am

Thank you for your comments. I did not actually know that the gematria for serpent and messiah were related, but it does appear so. It sounds as if that may have been first noted by the Kohen brothers in the 13th century: http://www.kheper.net/topics/Kabbalah/t ... ons_AE.htm It is unfortunate that much of what was written on Hebrew mysticism and kabbalah, from what I've read, remains untranslated (or only available in a few languages). The English translation of that should be this text: http://www.amazon.com/Early-Kabbalah-Cl ... y+Kabbalah

It was apparently also mentioned by Regardie in Garden of Pomegranates, but I haven't read that either: http://books.google.com/books?id=phzGhH ... 58&f=false

Reading Regardie, it sounds like him and Pike would have gotten along very well.

People try to do a bunch of things with gematria, like applying it to modern languages like English or Hindi. While I am adamantly against things like that, since the English language was not designed in a way that encourages that at all... and while I do think at least some of the connections are contrived, there is probably something to gematria with respect to Hebrew and Greek. Especially Hebrew, given its arguably mystical nature. These languages were such that each character actually did represent a number as well, and there is clear reference to the gematria of certain things in the core texts.

Thank you, again, for pointing that out - lift high the brazen serpent! I also stumbled upon this tidbit, which corroborates:

Nehushta (Hebrew, NChShThN, "brass object") is the serpent of brass made by Moses and placed on a pole (Numbers 21:8-9) to cure the Israelites of the venomous bites of the fiery serpents in the wilderness. The word Nehushtah "thing of brass" contains a Hebrew pun, the first three letters, NChSh, mean "serpent" and the final two, ThN, mean "dragon."

In Hebrew gematria, the numerical value of MShICH, "Messiah" and NChSh "serpent" are identical, 358.


Is it also interesting, if nothing else, that the gematria for 358+358 = 716 = ושתי, which is shenayim (the word for "two"). להתרפא, which is rapha' - meaning 'heal' - also makes an appearance. Again, I don't know how much can be read into these kind of connections, but it is not entirely without merit.
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby Cybernetic_Jazz » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:46 am

Out of curiosity, do you think you've found your theodicy yet and if so are there any particular mystic/magic orders that hit it dead on or at least pretty close?

I'm in a position where I tend toward the material optimist camps. I'm in two Rosicrucian groups, also very interested in eventually finding a good Martinist order albeit while they seem to be 'where it's at' in the occult-tech they also tend to, at least as far as I can tell, lean on the fence between material optimism and pessimism.
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby Asurendra » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:02 am

Speaking for myself, I don't think Hebrew is any more or less holy than any other expression of human consciousness through speech. What would make Hebrew unique or special? It cannot be the grammar or vocabulary. The Canaanite dialects were almost identical to Hebrew yet they were cursed by the Hebrew god. All of them come from Akkadian, which is older, so age cannot be the source of holiness.

On the other hand, if it has a particular resonance for you then by all means work with it and approach Divinity through that path.

But still, I'll throw some more cold water around! I remember how these gematria and word games would drive me crazy when I was younger. I'm sure synchronicity sometimes speak through this but I am deeply skeptical of it as an applied study to reveal things which are hidden. I'll give you an example:

The root BKR in Hebrew. From this you get 'boker,' morning & 'bakar,' cow. You play around with it more and get (this similarity of sound is often used) with the BCHR root 'buchor,' an unmarried young male so are we to learn that young men should take the cows out in the morning? We need a secret code for that?

It's something to think about.
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Re: Differences between Satan, Lucifer, and The Devil

Postby Cybernetic_Jazz » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:42 am

Asurendra wrote:Speaking for myself, I don't think Hebrew is any more or less holy than any other expression of human consciousness through speech. What would make Hebrew unique or special? It cannot be the grammar or vocabulary. The Canaanite dialects were almost identical to Hebrew yet they were cursed by the Hebrew god. All of them come from Akkadian, which is older, so age cannot be the source of holiness.

I tend to think of it in a rather different manner - ie. a regionally globe-trotting group of what were essentially Chaldean people lived under the Egyptians at the height of their mysteries, lived under the Babylonians at the height of their mysteries, and were able to filter this through the Canaanite language which seemed to be a phenomenal rubric by which to share this data in a very three-dimensional manner (ie. the language and the web of interelations) and at the same time keep those relationships hidden from those who would misuse the information. Hence the real deliverable or finished product is probably a lot closer to a western Vedas or Upanishads albeit interlinked and interacted with in a very different manner based on this construction. As for Moses writing the Torah - I strongly doubt it at this point and particularly with so much of Genesis pointing to Babylon. Some have suggested the old testament being a joint project between Ezra and Cyrus the Great - it makes a lot of intuitive sense albeit I can't rule out that some of the scripts like Job and perhaps other proto-scripts weren't floating around between 12th and 7th century BCE in Israel.

Asurendra wrote:But still, I'll throw some more cold water around! I remember how these gematria and word games would drive me crazy when I was younger. I'm sure synchronicity sometimes speak through this but I am deeply skeptical of it as an applied study to reveal things which are hidden. I'll give you an example:

The root BKR in Hebrew. From this you get 'boker,' morning & 'bakar,' cow. You play around with it more and get (this similarity of sound is often used) with the BCHR root 'buchor,' an unmarried young male so are we to learn that young men should take the cows out in the morning? We need a secret code for that?

It's something to think about.

Admittedly I'm too new to it to really say whether the true Egyptian Book of Thoth or all of the stuff Pythagoras gained from the Egyptians is hidden in the Torah. This is one of those things where it's probably incredibly difficult for a person to really get their own fix of certainty on whether it's really what people claim it is or more hype than not until they've soaked it in long enough to have the whole picture in front of them which is what I'm pretty sure I'll need to do. For all that the various western mystery fraternities seem to consistently make of it - just from an outsider's perspective - if it were all fluff I would have thought that there'd be enough studious adepts calling for it to be discarded and enough people agreeing with their assessments that most of the orders would be pitching it out the window.
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