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Do What Thou Wilt and learn.

Re: Do What Thou Wilt and learn.

Postby Shawn Blackwolf » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:09 pm

Shawn Blackwolf wrote:
chowderpope wrote:Is it not a common misconception that "Do what thou wilt" means do whatever you like? That's a very literal interpretation based on the meaning of the words but I think Crowley meant will as a greater destiny or purpose, and that it's the individual's goal to become in touch with that true will.


Absolutely , Chowderpope...

And one of our symbol sets , equals 894...

Thelema = 133

Law = 240

True = 255

Will = 267

= 895

The counterpoint set of symbols to that , equals 1318 :

Common Person's = 34

Law = 611

Restriction = 672

= 1317

Those who have truly read Crowley's work ,
know what he said about restriction... [thumbup]

This code is where he got his statements , based in gematria... [wink]


@InMalkuth...

This says very well how I see it , as I agreed with Chowderpope... [thumbup]
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Re: Do What Thou Wilt and learn.

Postby chowderpope » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:24 pm

Yeah taking "do what thou wilt" to mean "do whatever you want" is pretty superficial. That's like the exoteric meaning, maybe. Pretty dumb if you ask me.

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Awake from sleep! Remember you're the son of a Great King, see to whom you're enslaved!
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Re: Do What Thou Wilt and learn.

Postby inMalkuth » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:56 pm

Oh Im sorry, I misread something you said.
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Re: Do What Thou Wilt and learn.

Postby inMalkuth » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:01 pm

Its true that everything is allowed.

But it is also true that not everything is acceptable!

I am free to do what I will, the only thing that will stop me... is you.
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Re: Do What Thou Wilt and learn.

Postby darktruth77 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:46 pm

chowderpope wrote:Yeah taking "do what thou wilt" to mean "do whatever you want" is pretty superficial. That's like the exoteric meaning, maybe. Pretty dumb if you ask me.

thread closed

Yeah I think that do whatever you want is the exoteric meaning And the esoteric meaning is fin your own true will inside your real being and do this. You have to search deep down yourself to find what you really want.
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Re: Do What Thou Wilt and learn.

Postby Spida » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:11 pm

The first time I heard it. It was presented as "Do what thou will. That shall be the whole of the law." And I mistakenly, as many, took it to mean: do whatever you want. I believe this now to be incorrect. The correct interpretation isn't really any less malevelant, just more precise. So whatever your true will is, would be acceptable to act upon. With no Universal resistance. You are doing what the Universe has created you to do.

I remember hearing the added "Love under will" part after. Which appears to place more significance on your "true will" will Love being subordinate to this. Many will not like this much however, which is understood.

I also remember reading in one of Crowley's works that if a person chooses something that does not conform to their true will, then they will do it clumsily, at first!

That's what I recall without checking anything.
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Re: Do What Thou Wilt and learn.

Postby inMalkuth » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:37 pm

Its been awhile since I read the Book, but I want to go back and see if the "love under Will" part is actually something that was given, or something he added. If it was given, then I assume that this is a spiritual law, and not a literal one. If the actual only phrasing is "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole of the Law" then it is just as it appears. I mean, we are talking about Divine Gods, and they would know whether or not there is any consequence to our actions. Personally I think of it this way: I am free to do what I will; no God will stand in my way. The best example of this is any of the worst dictators or criminals in history. Its a fundamental truth that I can do anything I desire. This is "The Law" but, with any "Law", there is a consequence to your actions. If the Law is to do what I please, then there is no punishment and it is as they suggest, that everything is allowed. Personally I think a number of other things about this, but I see this to be the intention of the Law.

If Love is the Law, Love under Will is also "the Law" then I imagine that Do What Thou Wilt is the Whole of The Law= love, because the Law is now love. What greater love can there be other than liberty to do as I choose? However, Love under Will would imply that "Do What You Will, Love UNDER Will" means that love is not the precedent here, but will, and that whatever I will to do is what matters, and that love is subjected to my desire.

Essentially from any angle I propose it is still Do What Thou Wilt.

Now, if you are trying to become a God.... that is another story [evil]
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Re: Do What Thou Wilt and learn.

Postby Spida » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:07 pm

Part of the problem is attempting to anthropomorphize Divinity. You may not understand a need for Evil, in a Divine system. Some things just are, if something can exist, then it probably will. You may condemn it's existence an abomination, but was created through the Universe. What does this say about Divinity?

If you want the ultimate truth, then extrapolate from the Universe. It's not that hard really.

A man will condemn another for exercising his/her true will so it's an interesting dynamic how something created by the Universe disagrees with it.
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Re: Do What Thou Wilt and learn.

Postby inMalkuth » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:59 pm

If you want to live according to the Universe as God idea, then we would indeed have to acknowledge that things grow and die, are created and destroyed, and that it all happens for no apparent reason other than a continuous expansion of itself into all directions.

The fact is that mankind is not the Universe. True, we represent the Universe in as much as we are able to know and interact with it, but we simply are not the Universe. We are finite beings that must co-exist in a place that we must overcome together in order to survive. Simply saying that the Universe does not acknowledge good and evil is not legitimate. The fact is that in this need to survive, certain actions and behavior are detrimental to that need. You could also say that if God didnt like evil, then why does it exist? The fact is that all Gods acknowledge the Free Will of mankind, and that we are responsible for our deeds and words. Essentially, we create good and evil, but God acknowledges it also. Now, this might seem contrary to the premise that God made the Universe as a representation of who we are and how we are to act, but God in the sense that we understand it or Him as a deity has a personality and expectations. Regardless of whether you believe in a Divine Being with a personality, or whether you believe in the Universe as the "grand teacher" of what is, man must still abide by certain levels of what is generally considered to be good and evil.
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Re: Do What Thou Wilt and learn.

Postby inMalkuth » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:01 pm

The dilemma of magick as is so apparent in places like this, is that it misses the point in a couple of areas.

The first problem is that it teaches people that the only reason for knowledge is to use it to your own design, One may learn about compassion and understand it, but there is no guarantee of compassion, rather, it is simply showing the typical occultist what it can be used for. This is not compassion. Fundamentally it is deception to manipulate a genuine observation for your own ends when that observation is all about doing this for the concern for others. This is best represented by Chessed, which is mercy and charity. The Jews say that the highest form of charity is anonymous charity. This means giving without requiring anything in return. Apply this to a concern about other peoples welfare; and you realize that manipulating compassion isnt being true to what it is meant to mean. I cannot claim altruism when I want something in return.

The other problem is that the use of magick is to provide people with the knowledge of what they are doing, why they are doing it, how to observe the result of what they want, and it inspires them to knowledge about many insightful things like definitions of symbols, and cosmic principles of action and return. This is not the problem in itself; the problem is that we become reliant upon the system itself, and fail to see that this can be done without magickal ceremony or ritual or action. Essentially, all of this is done with the mind, and we need no vestments or elements or weapons etc. By encouraging people to make a physical effort for a mental result, we also encourage many superstitious pursuits like acquiring wealth through magickal action, and this actually proves detrimental to the spiritual element of progression through practicing magick to cause a recognition of the real goings on and needs of the world. On a spiritual level, should there be a destiny for our souls, it brings into being the result of a plane on which we will find ourselves having been constructed by our own greed. The point of any spiritual power should be for Chessed, and not for selfish ends. There will always be the self to consider, but why would a God care much about someone that cared so little for anyone else? What future world would need someone that couldnt integrate and assist a community? Would you want to enter into a community, or even be in one in this life, that was filled with people that only cared about themselves? Consider for a moment where that would lead us. Think of all the times that someone bent their will to yours, or bothered to assist you. Did you think that your magickal strength won some sort of combat that provided you with the wealth that you acquired from it? Or do you think that maybe what happened was that that other person was aware of compassion?
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Re: Do What Thou Wilt and learn.

Postby inMalkuth » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:08 pm

Magick itself is not bad, but untethered it is a trap. It is a trap for our souls to have an absence of chessed.

I cannot stress this point enough; there is no future world that needs selfish people. The only world that would need that, is an illusionary world where I am the only person, and I am king of it. We do not live in that world! That world will never be here! There is no need to pursue that world! All of this goes back to my first few posts about the Holy Spirit of Community, which was so gleefully disregarded as a legitimate view.

Feel free to worship Satan; it is necessary to know thyself. When youre ready to participate in community, let us know.
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