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Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

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Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Shekem » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:01 am

1) Is there an actual difference in conscious awareness or mental phenomena (ex: vivid visualization) that take place using these two methods, or are they basically different methods of achieving the same state?

2) If there is a significant difference, what is it and which method is better suited for a beginning / developing occult practitioner?
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Desecrated » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:36 pm

Yes, they are different in the same way that thinking and daydreaming are different.
Our current society seems to think that there is either consciousness or unconsciousness, but they forget about all the steps in between.

Meditative trance is better for blocking out the outside world, whereas hypnotic trance is better for receiving information from the outside world. So it's not that one is better than the other, it depends on what you are trying to do with them.
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Shekem » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:50 pm

Desecrated wrote:Yes, they are different in the same way that thinking and daydreaming are different.
Our current society seems to think that there is either consciousness or unconsciousness, but they forget about all the steps in between.

Meditative trance is better for blocking out the outside world, whereas hypnotic trance is better for receiving information from the outside world. So it's not that one is better than the other, it depends on what you are trying to do with them.


Awesome. So which of the 2 would be better suited for developing the ability to visualize clearly?
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Desecrated » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:50 am

Shekem wrote:
Desecrated wrote:Yes, they are different in the same way that thinking and daydreaming are different.
Our current society seems to think that there is either consciousness or unconsciousness, but they forget about all the steps in between.

Meditative trance is better for blocking out the outside world, whereas hypnotic trance is better for receiving information from the outside world. So it's not that one is better than the other, it depends on what you are trying to do with them.


Awesome. So which of the 2 would be better suited for developing the ability to visualize clearly?


Visualization is an internal process, so meditative trance state is best of those two option, but deep mediation is even better.
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Shekem » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:32 am

Desecrated wrote:
Shekem wrote:
Desecrated wrote:Yes, they are different in the same way that thinking and daydreaming are different.
Our current society seems to think that there is either consciousness or unconsciousness, but they forget about all the steps in between.

Meditative trance is better for blocking out the outside world, whereas hypnotic trance is better for receiving information from the outside world. So it's not that one is better than the other, it depends on what you are trying to do with them.


Awesome. So which of the 2 would be better suited for developing the ability to visualize clearly?


Visualization is an internal process, so meditative trance state is best of those two option, but deep mediation is even better.


Okay. I've begun meditating for 20 minutes, twice a day. I feel really relaxed during and after, but I haven't felt a shift in consciousness yet. Is meditative trance a state that you gradually begin to achieve thru repeated meditation, or is it a state that i should be able to achieve every time, if I'm meditating properly? If the latter, then I must be doing something wrong, or the trance is so light that I'm just not aware of it. I slow my breathing down to the point where I'm at 4 complete breaths per minute. I figured I would at least shift to Alpha or something after 20 minutes of that -- that is unless it's something that will happen with time.
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby chowderpope » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:55 am

What is your method of meditation? Are you focusing on your breath? I understand meditation as a gradual process of training your mind, with the result being a gradual unfoldment of deeper states of consciousness. It's not something you'd get instant results in.
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Shekem » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:49 am

chowderpope wrote:What is your method of meditation? Are you focusing on your breath? I understand meditation as a gradual process of training your mind, with the result being a gradual unfoldment of deeper states of consciousness. It's not something you'd get instant results in.


Yeah, I just breath in slowly, hold for a few seconds, exhale slowly, hold for a few seconds, while 'watching' my breath. I do that for like 10-15 minutes then just breath normally and continue focusing on my breath. I've timed myself and I usually at about 3 or 4 breaths per minute. I guess it's kind of like an unstructured meditation for now, but I bought a couple books on meditation and I'll be trying the methods suggested by the authors shortly and see how that works.
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Desecrated » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:35 pm

Shekem wrote:
chowderpope wrote:What is your method of meditation? Are you focusing on your breath? I understand meditation as a gradual process of training your mind, with the result being a gradual unfoldment of deeper states of consciousness. It's not something you'd get instant results in.


Yeah, I just breath in slowly, hold for a few seconds, exhale slowly, hold for a few seconds, while 'watching' my breath. I do that for like 10-15 minutes then just breath normally and continue focusing on my breath. I've timed myself and I usually at about 3 or 4 breaths per minute. I guess it's kind of like an unstructured meditation for now, but I bought a couple books on meditation and I'll be trying the methods suggested by the authors shortly and see how that works.


You are doing everything right.
So now you need to stop worry about that. stop counting, stop trying to make it correct, fuck the structures, just sit.

As my zen teacher always told me: Relax harder,
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby chowderpope » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:48 pm

Shekem wrote:
chowderpope wrote:What is your method of meditation? Are you focusing on your breath? I understand meditation as a gradual process of training your mind, with the result being a gradual unfoldment of deeper states of consciousness. It's not something you'd get instant results in.


Yeah, I just breath in slowly, hold for a few seconds, exhale slowly, hold for a few seconds, while 'watching' my breath. I do that for like 10-15 minutes then just breath normally and continue focusing on my breath. I've timed myself and I usually at about 3 or 4 breaths per minute. I guess it's kind of like an unstructured meditation for now, but I bought a couple books on meditation and I'll be trying the methods suggested by the authors shortly and see how that works.


I guess there are several methods and goals of meditation. I am currently following one of Franz Bardon's instructions in IIH which is to focus on the mechanism of breathing, and anytime your mind wanders you gently direct it back to the breathing. It's very simple and easy to practice. Getting distracted and correcting the distraction is an essential part of the method. It doesn't mean you're doing it wrong when you get distracted. As long as you bring your focus back to the breath, you are doing it right. Eventually, I think that's supposed to help you enter a deeper state without thought, which I think is something like what Desecrated is referring to.
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Shekem » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:15 am

Desecrated wrote:So now you need to stop worry about that. stop counting, stop trying to make it correct, fuck the structures, just sit.

As my zen teacher always told me: Relax harder,


Lol. Will do. Thanks.
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby chowderpope » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:19 am

Aren't the structures a means of getting to a place where you're technically capable of saying "fuck the structures"? Don't you have to crawl before you walk?
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Shekem » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:30 am

chowderpope wrote:I guess there are several methods and goals of meditation. I am currently following one of Franz Bardon's instructions in IIH which is to focus on the mechanism of breathing, and anytime your mind wanders you gently direct it back to the breathing. It's very simple and easy to practice. Getting distracted and correcting the distraction is an essential part of the method. It doesn't mean you're doing it wrong when you get distracted. As long as you bring your focus back to the breath, you are doing it right. Eventually, I think that's supposed to help you enter a deeper state without thought, which I think is something like what Desecrated is referring to.


I'm actually pretty good at blocking intruding thoughts and mental chatter during meditation. My only issue, that I'm aware of, is dozing off when I meditate too close to bed time. Other than that, and based off what Desecrated said, I think I'm starting out okay.

My worry was not achieving the trance state right away. I didn't know it takes time to arrive at that ability to shift gears to a different state. Most of the books I've skimmed thru and own say "go into trance and do such and such", as though a neophyte is supposed to be able to just sit Indian Style for 20 minutes and be in trance doing all sorts of cool, vivid visualizations and journeys right away. I guess the misunderstanding might be on my part. Maybe the authors expect those who read their material to already be at a point where they can shift consciousness fairly easily, and their books are for further developing the reader's abilities or helping the reader/practitioner take it to the next level. It's cool tho, because I'm going to get there. I don't know how soon, but I'll arrive at that point. I'm determined :)
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Procel » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:46 am

I just read an excellent book on exactly this subject. "Hypnotism and Meditation" by Ormond McGill gives the topic a better treatment than a forum thread can.

Short version is they are different trance experiences but you gain from both. McGill was a hypnotist of great renown in his time. He also spent many years in India and had at least some understanding of Eastern mysticism.

Not a super long read. Well worth it.
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Shekem » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:20 am

Procel wrote:I just read an excellent book on exactly this subject. "Hypnotism and Meditation" by Ormond McGill gives the topic a better treatment than a forum thread can.

Short version is they are different trance experiences but you gain from both. McGill was a hypnotist of great renown in his time. He also spent many years in India and had at least some understanding of Eastern mysticism.

Not a super long read. Well worth it.


Ouch. That's a pretty expensive read -- though it covers exactly what I was inquiring about. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Shawn Blackwolf » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:21 am

One thing not covered yet , is individuals...

For instance I never followed a book or a teacher...

Ever since I was very young , I was able to slip into a trance state ,
and did , without even trying...sometimes it happened in school ,
to the point my eyes could be wide open , I could hear everything
around me , but I was also elsewhere...

I could not respond , or move , until I came fully back...

My parents took me for testing at two university medical centers ;

UCLA and UC Berkeley...they found I had a serotonin imbalance...

So they called it...I felt balanced quite fine...just liked going elsewhere...

Years later , I used walking , dance , looking at a river , or hearing it
gurgle , looking at and listening to the ocean , hearing the wind whisper
through the trees , and many more ways to enter the trance state...

Standing in line at the store or post office , or , in the days before cable ,
white noise on the television...listening to some very boring teacher drone on...

I had a zen teacher tell me not to bother studying with him...he said I was
already there...and I had attained the zen state and the laugh that went with it... [wink]

Looking at a candle , or looking into the flames of a fire...all these are possible
techniques for attaining trance...one point focus , visualization , pathworking ,
astral journeying , dreamwalking , shapeshifting...those are all different things ,
one may explore , just for a beginning from there...

Do not rely *just* on the books...

*However* , there are some older books on pranayama , and how different types of breathing
affect consciousness...try the nine breath...in for nine beats , hold for nine , out for nine...

That is a very old technique , that has great results...not just from my experience... [thumbup]

Both counting , and non counting , serve purposes...just different ones...

Just remember , as you progress...first there is a mountain , then there is no mountain , then there is...

( first there is something blocking progress , then there is not , then as you move forward there is )

Just one way of seeing that zen riddle... [wink]
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Desecrated » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:23 am

chowderpope wrote:Aren't the structures a means of getting to a place where you're technically capable of saying "fuck the structures"? Don't you have to crawl before you walk?


Yes! but the structures will only get you 95% of the way. You need to throw them off to achieve the last 5 % where you can work without structures. And it sounds like OP is on the last stretch.

There is that weird little jump just before you switch from walking to running. And some people think that they will start to run if they just walk fast enough, but walking fast and running is not the same.
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Desecrated » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:28 am

Shawn Blackwolf wrote:One thing not covered yet , is individuals...

For instance I never followed a book or a teacher...]


Books are roadmaps, they tell you where to go (and sometimes how to get there.) But you still have to do all the work.
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Shawn Blackwolf » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:06 am

And just because someone wrote it , whether trained / entrained / brainwashed
by academia , or by a guru or some other teacher , or because they read someone
else's work and mixed it with their own gnosis , ( UPG ) does not mean it is correct...

You can be looking at a totally incorrect roadmap , or one with just the right amount
of incorrect / mistaken pathways delineated , to lead you into a pit , swamp , or off the edge...

Books are just as fallible as anything else...wise discrimination is always needed...

( being me , you can imagine I would little trust a book written by an academic on pranayama ,
than one by a practicing guru , yet even then , I would seek out other advanced practitioners
and their wisdom , before fully embracing the teachings in the book...same with oral teaching )
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Shekem » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:30 am

I really appreciate all the responses and input. Thanks a lot everyone. [happyface]
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Procel » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:33 am

Shekem wrote:
Procel wrote:I just read an excellent book on exactly this subject. "Hypnotism and Meditation" by Ormond McGill gives the topic a better treatment than a forum thread can.

Short version is they are different trance experiences but you gain from both. McGill was a hypnotist of great renown in his time. He also spent many years in India and had at least some understanding of Eastern mysticism.

Not a super long read. Well worth it.


Ouch. That's a pretty expensive read -- though it covers exactly what I was inquiring about. Thanks for the suggestion.



Looks like I scored the last cheap copy. Keep your eyes open for a copy. Everything turns up if you look for it.
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Desecrated » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:41 pm

Shawn Blackwolf wrote:And just because someone wrote it , whether trained / entrained / brainwashed
by academia , or by a guru or some other teacher , or because they read someone
else's work and mixed it with their own gnosis , ( UPG ) does not mean it is correct...

You can be looking at a totally incorrect roadmap , or one with just the right amount
of incorrect / mistaken pathways delineated , to lead you into a pit , swamp , or off the edge...

Books are just as fallible as anything else...wise discrimination is always needed...

( being me , you can imagine I would little trust a book written by an academic on pranayama ,
than one by a practicing guru , yet even then , I would seek out other advanced practitioners
and their wisdom , before fully embracing the teachings in the book...same with oral teaching )


YES, there is a lot of crappy books out there.
That is why you read as many as you possible can, figure out the main course and then do the trial and error on your own.

This is why I like book recommendations from people who read a lot. If they have read 20 books on a subject and tells you that this book is the best of them, it's usually worth checking out. But from time to time it turns out that it isn't the best book, it just happens to co-respond with how they view the work and it doesn't fit your narrative.

The whole academic versus practitioners is another interesting debate. Because sometimes words don't describe something accurate and you have to have that first hand experience to really get it. BUT sometimes religious-teachers are lazy or stupid or somewhere along the line the teachings have been disturbed and it's actually good to have academics come in and look at the original texts, as well as having experts come in and date objects used by the sect or back up claims with new archeological claims.
There is a lot of Wiccans out there who claim to have objects that are hundreds years old that has passed down in hereditary lines, but if you did a carbon radio dating on them, they would hail from sussex flee market circa 1940.
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Shawn Blackwolf » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:02 pm

Only my opinion , yet in my opinion , excellent post , Desecrated...

I agree with you...

( oh gods ! the end of the universe must be near ! lol ! )
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Desecrated » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:11 pm

Shawn Blackwolf wrote:Only my opinion , yet in my opinion , excellent post , Desecrated...

I agree with you...

( oh gods ! the end of the universe must be near ! lol ! )


Of course you do, I'm always right. Hail me.
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Re: Meditative Trance -vs- Hypnotic Trance

Postby Shawn Blackwolf » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:00 am

At least you did not say Heil... [thumbup] ... [razz]
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