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What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

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What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Desecrated » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:24 pm

The occult community has come a far way since the beginning of the internet, but we can always improve and always get better.

SO, What do we need MORE of in the occult community?
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Napoli » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:18 pm

Tolerance and less arrogance. Many occult communities online seem to look down upon the LHP practitioners, or even refuse to offer them help. I came to OF after getting sick of the vanity of 'advanced' occult practitioners of a certain forum, who loves nothing better than to put others down and even bully the amateurs. The same goes for charging insane amount from practitioners just because they are the master, high priest or something.

I also think we need to spread more awareness of certain New Age ideologies which are false and/or dangerous. I wasted a year of my occult journey relying on New Age sources that taught me basically nothing.
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Sypheara » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:40 pm

We need less armchair magickians and more pragmatic, honest individuals with practical skillsets who want to teach and guide new people coming through.

This is made difficult by far too much ego in many magical circles. This has led to many with the knowledge, skills and time to do the above to just leave the online occult communities as they think its a lot of nonsense (95% of it is).

We also need less focus on making money in the occult community. Far too many people approach it with this mindset, many more do so but are also fraudulent and damage the perception of the occult on the whole. Im not talking about the few people that offer the odd tarot reading - but the people who have entire youtube channels around driving ridiculous made up claims to sell low quality merchandise and sucker in the new and ignorant.

These people do not serve the great work at all.
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Desecrated » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:00 pm

Sypheara wrote:We need less armchair magickians and more pragmatic, honest individuals with practical skillsets who want to teach and guide new people coming through.


It's hard to teach practical skills over the internet.
My assignment to you is to present 5 good practical training exercises for the rest of the forum to participate in this weekend. :)
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Desecrated » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:00 pm

Napoli wrote:
I also think we need to spread more awareness of certain New Age ideologies which are false and/or dangerous. I wasted a year of my occult journey relying on New Age sources that taught me basically nothing.


Make a new post about it. Top 10 things to avoid as a beginner.
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Sypheara » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:50 pm

Desecrated wrote:
Sypheara wrote:We need less armchair magickians and more pragmatic, honest individuals with practical skillsets who want to teach and guide new people coming through.


It's hard to teach practical skills over the internet.
My assignment to you is to present 5 good practical training exercises for the rest of the forum to participate in this weekend. :)


Not if its one on one necessarily. You also kinda need to know what level someone is at to help them as well. I'd honestly take that challenge if i wasn't buried in planning the next blog post, updating all my personal notes from a working retreat, and sorting part of a book out on top of my day job.

I might write something in the near future though, as thats a good idea. I'd have to think of what i'd find essential in my own practice to pull that out. I'm quite sure it would be relatively contentious however!
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Rin » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:46 am

More honesty about practical experience - both in terms of what people are experiencing and not talking about, and in terms of what they aren't experiencing but are leading people to believe that they are.
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Desecrated » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:02 am

Rin wrote:More honesty about practical experience - both in terms of what people are experiencing and not talking about, and in terms of what they aren't experiencing but are leading people to believe that they are.


One of the problem about this is that a lot of people don't want to reveal what kind of magic they are working with at the time. Hopefully we will have more and more magicians who have been doing this for 10 years or so that are willing to share what they did 7-8 years ago and talk about magic they've done that isn't in play anymore.
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Sypheara » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:30 am

Desecrated wrote:
Rin wrote:More honesty about practical experience - both in terms of what people are experiencing and not talking about, and in terms of what they aren't experiencing but are leading people to believe that they are.


One of the problem about this is that a lot of people don't want to reveal what kind of magic they are working with at the time. Hopefully we will have more and more magicians who have been doing this for 10 years or so that are willing to share what they did 7-8 years ago and talk about magic they've done that isn't in play anymore.


You both have a point. I've seen alot of people online and heard some stupid stories.Part of my point that I likely badly made was about this point, as I feel these claims sometimes are done to generate the money dollars. Not that this is anything new - if you look even back into history to say, the Delphi Oracle, its not like it was never used to generate money and influence once it got a bit corrupt.

Ive also seen people use things like 'astral projection' (obviously fake stories) to accuse other people of doing something they haven't done. I feel that sometimes people lack a bit of critical thought and common sense and immediately jump to the occult explanations in alot of cases.

As for what Desecrateds said. This is actually the current issue im having with my blog. Im doing alot of gate work, carving stuff, sigilising it, blooding it, and working with the resultant energies. But i'd never want to publicly talk about the methods, experiences sanitised from them, maybe, but not the actual methods, until I've come out the other side of the work and I am relatively confident in what I'd be telling / teaching people.

On a complete side note, have an idea for a topic. So thanks Desecrated!
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Desecrated » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:30 pm

Sypheara wrote:
You both have a point. I've seen alot of people online and heard some stupid stories.Part of my point that I likely badly made was about this point, as I feel these claims sometimes are done to generate the money dollars. Not that this is anything new - if you look even back into history to say, the Delphi Oracle, its not like it was never used to generate money and influence once it got a bit corrupt.


Well, obviously, money is always an issue. But as you pointed out, that has been around since the dawn of time. There are always going to be people abusing other people. This is something that most of us would probably want to see LESS of, But to balance that up, what do we want to see more of then?
What can we do to shift the energy away from these people?
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Desecrated » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:34 pm

Sypheara wrote:I feel that sometimes people lack a bit of critical thought and common sense and immediately jump to the occult explanations in alot of cases.


Is this something that we should work with more?
I've always avoided posting documentaries and information about things that isn't occult, but would the forum benefit from more information about critical thinking, Grammar, logic, and rhetoric?
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Rin » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:08 pm

Desecrated wrote:
Rin wrote:More honesty about practical experience - both in terms of what people are experiencing and not talking about, and in terms of what they aren't experiencing but are leading people to believe that they are.


One of the problem about this is that a lot of people don't want to reveal what kind of magic they are working with at the time. Hopefully we will have more and more magicians who have been doing this for 10 years or so that are willing to share what they did 7-8 years ago and talk about magic they've done that isn't in play anymore.


That's fair enough, but I feel like we're kind of getting past that point. We've got a generation of practitioners who grew up with the internet and online communities now entering into their 30's, and we have plenty of older practitioners who are participating in these communities as well.

I understand secrecy and generally keeping things on the DL is important to a point, but I feel like what we have is a lot of experienced practitioners who overdo this for one reason or another, and even among less experienced practitioners there seems to be a real taboo against discussing practical experiences (which I have to admit to falling prey to myself).

This is something I feel needs to be worked on, both because it's inaccurate and paints an inaccurate picture of the arts we practice, and because it also creates an environment which leaves the opportunity open for people to make certain claims, or to allow certain assumptions to be formed (intentionally or unintentionally), about what they can or cannot do, and by doing so to mislead people. You end up with those who are the real deal looking like the fakers because they understate their achievements, and the fakers end up looking like the real deal because they're the only ones willing to discuss actual metaphysical experiences and abilities. It leads to a lot of unhealthy situations and dynamics.
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Sypheara » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:27 pm

Ill be the first to admit that, other than do our own personal best and create avenues for people to learn / explore safely armed with good info, there isnt much I think we can do.

All we can do is offer our best, and help people find their feet and direction. Its the reason why I initially started by blog, and then I expanded it to be about my personal experiences to give people an honest look into where the work is going as best I can. I think that falls on each individual to have responsibility to know that some point, they are likely to be responsible teaching someone in some form and to be aware of that. Even in off hand posts - someone could read that and get something from it, technically receiving teaching from you when you didnt realise it.

I don't necessarily think you have to be an 'expert' to do this. After several years of practice, sincere people have at least something legitimate to contribute even if its documented experience stuff like Rins alluding to. I honestly think those people should get writing, publishing, and creating their own sites - that arnt restricted or hidden into closed circles or e forums (where of course the work is appropriate to share in this manner).

As for the thing about documentaries and stuff on critical thinking, grammar, logic, and rhetoric, I think that would be great. Also on philosophy, which basically relies on alot of that to get its point across. I genuinely feel that alot of people sometimes lack the required mindset before they approach occult related things, and that the above not only helps expands the skillset of individuals but also gives a certain degree of maturity.

Also, it never, ever harms to brush up on these kind of skills, as with any foundations, as they are so important.
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Napoli » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:00 pm

Desecrated wrote:but would the forum benefit from more information about critical thinking, Grammar, logic, and rhetoric?


Yes, definitely.
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Desecrated » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:33 pm

Rin wrote:
This is something I feel needs to be worked on, both because it's inaccurate and paints an inaccurate picture of the arts we practice


Okay.
How?
Were do we start?
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Desecrated » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:34 pm

Sypheara wrote: create avenues for people to learn / explore safely armed with good info,


And how do we do that?
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby fraterai » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:16 pm

Many famous occultists suggest a strong foundation in psychology. I would love to see a broad study of psychology catch on as one of the key steps in "foundations" training. Also, awesome thread Des.
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Caerdon » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:03 am

More tacos! Fajita's are acceptable as well ;)

In all seriousness though, what a community needs more of is fact checking, or atleast a system in place to show whether it is personal experience, a theory, or if it's something found with resources to back it up, maybe have a rule for posting that the poster has to say where the basis of the facts in the post is located, or if it is a theory (practical or purely theoretical).
For instance, if you are talking about a ritual that you know, you should say that it's from your experience that it works for the situation, or that you found it in so-and-so book, tried it, and it worked in (blank) manner for you, that way people know, when reading the post, how reliable it should be taken, and if there are resources given they can investigate it themselves, as well as have the poster research as well to give what they say more credibility.
I know that alot of the active and older members on the board do it and direct people to resources already, and I know that I always try (may not always succeed) to let people know what I write is based off of my personal experience, but it should be a standard to do.

Also, I think that it needs more basic entry level guides for certain aspects of the occult for beginners. We have the Beginners Info subforum, but it's just directing people to outside resources and books, doesn't really give any practical guides that people are looking for, or even the common mistakes that people can run into, and so forth. There's nothing really member-written on there as a resource to help people besides the book lists (excluding the very handing cleansing rituals topic). I'm not saying that one person should write all of it, but as a community, there should be a community written guide and information available which, every so often, should get revised into a new post based off of community input.

That's my two cents as of this point [yay]
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby 777Sloan » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:52 am

In all seriousness though, what a community needs more of is fact checking, or atleast a system in place to show whether it is personal experience, a theory, or if it's something found with resources to back it up, maybe have a rule for posting that the poster has to say where the basis of the facts in the post is located, or if it is a theory (practical or purely theoretical).


Sounds helpful; though I admit some of the fun comes with watching people figure out what is and isn't reliable and/or meaningful information.

For instance, I could say: The nature of self and origin of all magic is Consciousness, and that I know this based on real, living experience.

But perhaps that statement is all, or at least partially, lies.

Part of the fun is in figuring what is what for oneself in one's own experience. Even if something is technically "true" at the level of information, if it isn't true for *you* personally, at the level of real experience, that information may not be particularly relevant, regardless its veracity.
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Desecrated » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:50 am

fraterai wrote:Many famous occultists suggest a strong foundation in psychology. I would love to see a broad study of psychology catch on as one of the key steps in "foundations" training.


I'll try to include that. It's a valid point.
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Desecrated » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:54 am

Caerdon wrote:More tacos! Fajita's are acceptable as well ;)

In all seriousness though, what a community needs more of is fact checking, or atleast a system in place to show whether it is personal experience, a theory, or if it's something found with resources to back it up, maybe have a rule for posting that the poster has to say where the basis of the facts in the post is located, or if it is a theory (practical or purely theoretical).


That's a little bit harsh, but yeah why not, I'll try to add a more personal touch when I recommend books.


For instance, if you are talking about a ritual that you know, you should say that it's from your experience that it works for the situation, or that you found it in so-and-so book, tried it, and it worked in (blank) manner for you, that way people know, when reading the post, how reliable it should be taken, and if there are resources given they can investigate it themselves, as well as have the poster research as well to give what they say more credibility.


Yeah, that's not a bad approach.

Also, I think that it needs more basic entry level guides for certain aspects of the occult for beginners. We have the Beginners Info subforum, but it's just directing people to outside resources and books, doesn't really give any practical guides that people are looking for, or even the common mistakes that people can run into, and so forth. There's nothing really member-written on there as a resource to help people besides the book lists (excluding the very handing cleansing rituals topic). I'm not saying that one person should write all of it, but as a community, there should be a community written guide and information available which, every so often, should get revised into a new post based off of community input.


There has been some attempts to this with barton study guides and such, but I think I know what you mean and I think we can probably whip something up.
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Rin » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:22 am

Desecrated wrote:Okay.
How?
Were do we start?


By being honest and thorough. Don't do the whole "oh actually I'll leave that bit out because it's a bit too out there and people won't take my post seriously" thing that a lot of occultists do. Be willing to speak in public about all that stuff you usually only discuss in private correspondence with people who you know have had similar experiences. Engage with more exotic and tangible phenomena in a clear headed way.

And on the flip side - call people out. Not just the crazies and the obvious liars (although they need it too), but hold people in general to a higher standard, even those we respect, ask that they be precise about what they're saying and what they're doing, instead of allowing ambiguity to creep in which can mislead people.

This is an issue I've experienced from multiple angles - I've been the guy who holds back on saying something because I didn't think people would believe it, I've been the guy who's been mislead (intentionally and unintentionally) by people who've simply made insinuations or left out important facts and let people draw their own erroneous conclusions.

And I've also been the guy who, by not being totally clear about something I was describing, has lead people to believe things that aren't true about my experiences and capabilities. I make a point of clearing this up whenever I see it occur, but that's not always possible, and a lot of people either don't bother clarifying or actually thrive on the inflated perception of their achievements that people develop. These people thrive on the atmosphere of ambiguity and obfuscation which metaphysical communities so frequently cultivate, and it's often to the detriment of people who come to those communities looking for guidance.
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby 777Sloan » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:08 pm

These people thrive on the atmosphere of ambiguity and obfuscation which metaphysical communities so frequently cultivate, and it's often to the detriment of people who come to those communities looking for guidance.


While I could not claim to have encountered any such persons on this site personally, I do feel it is important to respect the experiences of others, and the way they choose to relate those experiences. Perhaps there is a purpose to that ambiguity. That said, it may just as well be no more than a cover for one's own lack of experience.

Such expressed, I think you are coming from the right place with what you are expressing all taken together, it's simply that sometimes it can get messy to try and 'call out' what is and is not true in someone else's experience. Certainly when we try to describe something as ineffable as the arcane topic of the occult through so shoddy a medium as mere transcribed text, it may become a bit more understandable how the breaking down of language can make communicating even the most basic ideas clearly, improbable.

Fortunately, telepathy is possible in more psychically evolved/magic-based circles, such be viable even on a public forum as this.

This is the space I assess most meaningful information from...I read and pick up on the emotion-energy reactions of individuals and groups; written text is little more than a training wheel facilitating such a process when all members present are not fully aware of such a "dimension" of communication.

In a sense, these words contain psychometric energy...this is the true medium of meaningful communication...

Or perhaps far more likely: That is all a bunch of BS and I'm no more than a passing keyboard jockey. Find out for yourself in your own experience what is and is not real. That is the point.
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby inMalkuth » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:09 pm

Well...

I am heavily influenced by Thelema and I believe that a huge portion of life is the ability to experience it on ones own terms. That means if a person wants to believe they have special powers then by all means, let them. If these powers reveal something secret to them then that's great. Personally I have forced myself into a box of boundaries in regards to this and I did so out of necessity. My point is that not a one of us should be limited by what someone else thinks is best in terms of experiencing and exploring (so long as our exploration does not inhibit another persons ability to experience and explore).

Yes I think that there is a lot of fluff out there, but that does not mean that what I see as fluff isn't grand to someone else. I also do not expect anyone to be able to jump from fluff to hard logic. It requires effort and those that put themselves towards achieving this deserve to acquire their own self mastery. For this reason we might consider that bunny magic is a necessary evil.

I am in agreement that there are people posing themselves as teachers and masters whose methods do not meet my standards or desires but this also is a necessary evil. I may have spent ten years at the feet of a real jerk who I ultimately reject in style, but what has been accomplished is a strong resolve to teach according to my own methods. The point of having what we look back upon as traps is that we are now able to better navigate the road ahead.

What do we need more of? Good signposts for the ones that are emerging from the traps!
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Re: What do we need MORE of in the occult community?

Postby Gate » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:26 pm

fraterai wrote:Many famous occultists suggest a strong foundation in psychology. I would love to see a broad study of psychology catch on as one of the key steps in "foundations" training. Also, awesome thread Des.


I got started with Derren Brown's Trick of the Mind & with this book on learning confidence The Tao of Badass. I feel jargon is the only thing which makes those 'not occult'. Psychology is a very strong place to begin.
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