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Warned not to Summon Angels?

Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby violetstar » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:41 pm

Why is it that the New Age movement always claim the demons have been put in a bad light by mainstream religions? By the same thought process you will tell me next that Christianity stole the 'old' gods or Christianised 'pagan' festivals.

The above is information from respected academic sources analysing the oldest known sources of the names cited.I can also show evidence that Lilith and other names may not be what you think and provide you with details of the oldest known MSS where the names you cite originate.

But of course as you make it clear you do not recognise academic facts like those I set out above in order to aid the person I replied to.

With all due respect Shawn you are out of your depth on this, Sorry.
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby Amavisso » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:47 am

violetstar wrote:The above is information from respected academic sources analysing the oldest known sources of the names cited.

There is gigantic difference between academic sources and direct experience. As one old witch said: "All the books contain nothing but lie and craziness". Surely, it is slight exaggeration, but point stands. There is nothing Demonic about Death, neither it is Samael or Satan. Neither Lilith is Mother of Demons, and it was IHVH who "seduced" Chava. The whole myth about apple is just corrupted ciphered teaching about some profound properties of matter. Bible is like a frankenstein, consisting of many teachings, one demonizes IHVH, the other - Adonay Elohim, etc.

Heptameron might help with direct experience (though a lot of preliminary work must be done before that). Couple it with works of actual adepts (and not academics) like, e.g. Bardon, and you will be able to access the real knowledge firsthand.

Also, Samael is Arabian Semsamael.
Shawn Blackwolf wrote:I will not say anything about the validity of the Heptameron , though I know a bit...

It is interesting what you can say on the matter of Heptameron (and maybe Liber Juratus), if of course you are not bound by some oath of silence.
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby Shawn Blackwolf » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:13 am

First , Violetstar , that is not for you to determine *anything* about me
being out of my depth...secondly , it is not New Age information I draw from...

You should have the sense to know that by now , since I have made that *more*
than clear what I draw from...which you do not recognize due to your own prejudices...

Not only do I know the real spelling of Lilith , the symbols for that spelling , and the
code that spelling comes from , make the shape of her form , with the rings and rods
she is holding , and the lions and owls at her feet...

https://api.ning.com/files/5t*CACvEt46X ... ef.Med.jpg

But , you will probably try to tell me that image is disputed to be Lilith by some academic source...

And thus , I say to you...you are out of line , and out of your depth on this...

However , we can agree to disagree... [wink]

Oh , and yes , the Christians did just what you mentioned...

For instance , magic square of Venus = 1225 ( 12 / 25 )

Center square in magic square Venus , is value 25 ( 5x5 ) ,
which relates to magic square of Mars...thus , a martial
energy born of Venus...

In the columns I work with , one column makes shape of sword...

Other column by number value , equals Yehoshua / Joshua / Jesus...

( I came not to bring peace , but a sword )

Same column that makes sword , makes shape of human body , and adds to blood...

( Body and Blood Of Yehoshua )...

So yes...as I said...you are out of your depth as you are not an initiate into the ancient
tradition , as I tried to convey to you before , and you got pushed out of shape...
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby Shawn Blackwolf » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:40 am

"It is interesting what you can say on the matter of Heptameron (and maybe Liber Juratus), if of course you are not bound by some oath of silence."

I work with an extremely ancient code system , that has had , and still does , many different names
through time , and in different cultures , Amavisso...

One of many , many names was Language Of Birds for one part of it...Green Language for another...

Wietch's Book Of Shadows , by another tradition , Pillars Of Masonic Temple by another , and by still
another culture , part of it was called Spider Woman's Language , another part Copper Woman's Language ,
and so on far back into the past...

Some called it the knowledge given by the Sons Of Gods to the Women Of Earth...

( and the two columns below by gematria , equal "Angel Raziel's Book Of Knowing" )

( I am pretty sure you will hear what I am saying )

Think of a language with 77 levels of understanding and application for each symbol...

Think of a beginning structure of 44 base symbols...

As far as Heptameron...I can not afford the time in my life to show how someone or series of someones ,
pulled the information from the code to create it , but for now...

The column on left has a gematria value of 391...

Column on left 603...

Opera = 391

Name + Heptameron = 602

Those who know the Code , use the Code... [wink]
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby violetstar » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:46 am

Shawn.Lets start from the beginning.Throughout this forum you have attempted to ram down our throats your 'ancient tradition' which you told us has been handed down without being corrupted in an oral form.You have also claimed this tradition to be "aeons older" than the MSS I referred to at Qumran.

I offered you the chance to show us elements of your tradition which you said was secret.You responded by mocking academic analysis in the belief your oral tradition could not be traced.My reply was that we can in fact trace oral traditions and in places chart their development over time.I eventually stated that because you could provide no provenance for this tradition it has to be classed as a personal belief-which you are entitled to.

Your response was to tell me to stick this up my proverbial and as you have done above to flood the board with your own version of a form of Gematria and Runic numerology.This smoke screening is employed by you to divert attention away from further challenges to your claims and to take the thread off topic.

This thread was originally about summoning Angels and my input was in regard to a post concerning the Heptameron ,a magical MS attributed to Peter D'Abano.You decided to enter the thread with a counter-argument against historical facts based on your personal beliefs.You then say I am the one out of my depth as I am not an Adept of your tradition..This after you admonished me for my lack of knowledge about your abilities yet apply the same to me in retaliation.

To return to the topic,in response to the myth of Christianity being responsible for the demonisation of Samael and Lilith you wrote:

For instance , magic square of Venus = 1225 ( 12 / 25 )

Center square in magic square Venus , is value 25 ( 5x5 ) ,
which relates to magic square of Mars...thus , a martial
energy born of Venus...

In the columns I work with , one column makes shape of sword...

Other column by number value , equals Yehoshua / Joshua / Jesus...

( I came not to bring peace , but a sword )

Same column that makes sword , makes shape of human body , and adds to blood...

( Body and Blood Of Yehoshua )...


In the context of this thread your response is pure gibberish and carries meaning only to you.This is because it originates from your own personal system of numerology and tradition.Which is fine but makes for a poor argument.
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby violetstar » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:19 am

Amavisso wrote:
violetstar wrote:The above is information from respected academic sources analysing the oldest known sources of the names cited.

"There is gigantic difference between academic sources and direct experience. As one old witch said: "All the books contain nothing but lie and craziness". Surely, it is slight exaggeration, but point stands. There is nothing Demonic about Death, neither it is Samael or Satan. Neither Lilith is Mother of Demons, and it was IHVH who "seduced" Chava. The whole myth about apple is just corrupted ciphered teaching about some profound properties of matter. Bible is like a frankenstein, consisting of many teachings, one demonizes IHVH, the other - Adonay Elohim, etc.

Heptameron might help with direct experience (though a lot of preliminary work must be done before that). Couple it with works of actual adepts (and not academics) like, e.g. Bardon, and you will be able to access the real knowledge firsthand."

Also, Samael is Arabian Semsamael.


The problem of the Arabic,Greek or Hebrew is the transliteration into Latin which most of the magical texts are written in.I think you are aware of that.Often the process is causal to the loss of the original essence of a word or concept,Lucifer being a prime example.

Yes,a gigantic difference between academic sources and empiric reflection.Yet the Heptameron was itself penned by a scholar.History shows that virtulaly all genuine magical texts were composed by Adepts who were foremost scholars such as Agrippa,Peter D'Abano,Trithemius.John Dee et al.

In more modern times,and whether people like it or not,Crowley was also a scholar.Andrew D.Chumbley was both Adept and scholar and for example many of today's scholars also hold an interest in the Occult.Stephen Skinner is one and there are many more who do not express their interest in public.

Franz Bardon I would not personally cite as being able to impart 'real knowledge' any more than any other for example Israel Regardie.
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby Shawn Blackwolf » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:30 am

First of all that is a lie , that I would not show you , as I have posted , even as you admit here ,
in a snide and derogatory manner , which has been your tactic since I came here , that I have
posted , not "flooded" ( [razz] ) , information as pages of symbols , as reference sheets , and
examples of the gematria drawn from the code sheets...

I have never tried to "ram anything down anyone's throat" but to honestly share what I know from
both initiation , and years of extremely hard work , and persistence , up to 16 hours a day , for
25 years...

When attacked , of course I will tell someone where to stick that attitude...

Just because academia wants to pigeonhole things , does not mean I , or others , here or elsewhere ,
need to , or will , buy into your categories , especially if we know different ; IE : not personal belief ,
yet tradition you , and others , academic community included , are unaware of...there are many who
do know this , I have met and interacted with a number of them...from different cultures , different
traditions , and organizations and lodges...

I have also told you it has been passed down in oral form , yet as well encoded into baskets , blankets ,
carvings , statues , paintings , bas reliefs , books , etc...but if one does not know the code all they see
is the surface reality...not the depths beneath...

If one does not take the time to study the code from the inside , for as many years at the very least one
would put into acquiring a masters degree , one will not know the code , or how to utilize it...

That would be the only responsible way to truly judge it's validity , and possible usage...

I have already far more than done that...you have not , therefore your judgement of it's validity is to me ,
ignorant...and shows a lack , in your reasoning , as a good researcher would spend the time learning a system
unknown to them , which could give them previously unknown information...

I did just state in my post to Amavisso , this Code has been said by some from different traditions , to be the
knowledge given to humans by angels...whether truth , or allegory , it does then pertain to the thread , as if
one truly wishes to communicate with anyone , angels or otherwise , as equals , one must learn their language...

As far as this :

"By the same thought process you will tell me next that Christianity stole the 'old' gods or Christianised 'pagan' festivals."

Was why I posted what you then did not listen to nor read properly , and then accused me of gibberish , not pertaining to
the thread , or relating to Samael and Lilith...which is incorrect , as it was in direct reference to your statement above...

Your continual insistence of the Code being *my* personal belief and system , is flawed in it's statement , as there is no
way you can prove that , nor is it true...however , I shall not waste more time trying to convince you , yet I shall continue
to post , as you do here...

I feel you have been very insulting , again and again , trying to ram academia down others throats , as the only valid way...

Not just to and with me , yet others...yet , post away , and I shall do the same... [thumbup]

Do note : far more than once , I have offered to agree to disagree...yet you won't let it be that way...hopefully , this time ,
you shall finally get the message , and act in accordance...I truly hope so... [wink]
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby violetstar » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:41 pm

Firstly I do not attempt to ram academic and historical facts down anyones throat but simply put forward evidence to help forum members decide if what is genuine Occult information and what is forwarded as a personal belief that contradicts all known workable systems.This allows those new to the Occult to balance out what is what.If you decide this approach to be 'ignorant' and an 'attack' that is your choice.How challenges to your claims can be deemed 'insulting' is beyond me.

If you did not choose to discard academic input you would learn that some accepted belief had no basis in fact and most Practitioners would be glad to know of inherent flaws in any system they intended to employ.This includes ideas that are outdated and worthless in the light of new discoveries.

Here is an example.In answer to your image of 'Lilith' posted earlier.Lets look at the facts against previously accepted folklores:

Burney Relief, Babylon (1800–1750 BCE). Some scholars (e.g. Emil Kraeling) identified the figure in the relief with Lilith, based on a misreading of an outdated translation of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Modern research has identified the figure as one of the main goddesses of the Mesopotamian pantheons, most probably Ishtar or Ereshkigal.There is also the possibilty it represents Inana.

Now lets look at Lilith as a demon or angel:

The Lilith of Isa. xxxiv, 14 appears to be a wild animal, and not a demon;it occurs in a list of animals, and does not seem to be in any way distinguished from the others.
We conclude that hairy beings and all the other animals mentioned in Isaiah 13:21-22 and 34:11-15 are portrayed as ordinary animals which might be expected to dwell in uninhabited regions, not as
demons, and this position is supported by Toy and John Skinner.1

1Skinner, John. The Book of the Prophet Isaiah, "The Cambridge Bible forSchools and Colleges." 2 vols. Cambridge University Press
C.H.Toy. Wisdom 11 Encyclopaedia Biblica, Vol. IV, cols.
5336-5349.


This in turn is supported by:

Hebrew: וּפָגְשׁוּ צִיִּים אֶת-אִיִּים, וְשָׂעִיר עַל-רֵעֵהוּ יִקְרָא; אַךְ-שָׁם הִרְגִּיעָה לִּילִית, וּמָצְאָה לָהּ מָנוֹח
Hebrew (ISO 259): u-pagšu ṣiyyim et-ʾiyyim w-saʿir ʿal-rēʿēhu yiqra; ʾak-šam hirgiʿa lilit u-maṣʾa lah manoaḥ
34:14 "And shall-meet desert creatures with jackals
the goat he-calls his- fellow
lilit (lilith) she-rests and she-finds rest[29]
34:15 there she-shall-nest the great-owl, and she-lays-(eggs), and she-hatches, and she-gathers under her-shadow:
hawks[kites, gledes ] also they-gather, every one with its mate.


Without academic input you will continue to believe in the Lilith created by mis-translation and folklores.But as always you are entitled to your personal beliefs-but please stop using them to challenge historical fact.I think that is a fair request.
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby Amavisso » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:53 pm

violetstar wrote:The problem of the Arabic,Greek or Hebrew is the transliteration into Latin which most of the magical texts are written in.I think you are aware of that.Often the process is causal to the loss of the original essence of a word or concept,Lucifer being a prime example.

Indeed, e.g., a lot of prayers on old languages turned into some "barbaric" conjurations after being corrupted by careless copyists.

However, Crowley, Regardie and whoever was with them weren't scholars, they were profanators, they took some old teachings (or rather whatever little they had access to), ripped them apart, inserted some Horus/Aiwass/Samael in there and called it Magic. Their books are dangerous to read, because readers will get corrupted understanding of all Occult Arts and teachings.

Bardon, on other hand, was quite a sincere man, he had some amazing practices shown in his books, though I admit, his books aren't sufficient on their own; still Bardon has shown himself as a man who knows what he writes about. His "Initiation into Hermetics" beats all books of Crowley, Regardie and Chumbley taken together.
Shawn Blackwolf wrote:I work with an extremely ancient code system , that has had , and still does , many different names
through time , and in different cultures , Amavisso...

I am not familiar with the exact code you are writing about, though I am quite familiar with that kind of Cabbala.

What concerns Runes, well, they are quite a... complicated subject on its own. One of practitioners whom I know works with very expanded set, part of it you can see here:
image
His expanded set is quite large (and it is set after specific Universal Laws), so it can't fit standard set of 22, nowhere near close. I might give some more info if you are interested, though it would be going off-topic.
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby violetstar » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:43 pm

"Bardon, on other hand, was quite a sincere man, he had some amazing practices shown in his books, though I admit, his books aren't sufficient on their own; still Bardon has shown himself as a man who knows what he writes about. His "Initiation into Hermetics" beats all books of Crowley, Regardie and Chumbley taken together."

I cannot see how Bardons Initiation into Hermetics could offer more than the whole of Crowleys,Regardies and Chumbleys work combined as it offers advice on psychic ability more than general ritual practice.I prefer his Practice of Magical Evocation though its far more complex.But that is my personal opinion and may not be fact!
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby Amavisso » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:13 pm

violetstar wrote:I cannot see how Bardons Initiation into Hermetics could offer more than the whole of Crowleys,Regardies and Chumbleys work combined as it offers advice on psychic ability more than general ritual practice.I prefer his Practice of Magical Evocation though its far more complex.But that is my personal opinion and may not be fact!

Bardon's "Practie of Magical Evocation" book is very good too, though he omitted a lot of key material for various reasons, and "Practice" itself is quite advanced material. "Initiation" is less or more self-sufficient and stuffed with tons of serious material. What concerns Crowley and Regardie - neither of them knew even the basics of what they were writing about, they made a huge unsalvageable mess on occult field.

Chumbley is different subject. Person who dies from trivial disease in his 30s can't be considered a serious magician. I am not going more in-depth about what kinds of teachings he perverted, I am simply going to say that 5$ books by "undeducated" village brujos worth thousands times more than Chumbley's overpriced stuff.

So, if someone wants to contact Angels, going by books of Crowley and his camp will ensure that practitioner will talk with "portions of his own mind" (as Crowley himself described the spirits) and not with actual Angels. Bardon laid out the major key to most of occult works in his books openly, once you find it, your practice will move to entirely new level. I myself, found such key relatively recently, and I was upset that I didn't notice it before laid down before my eyes in book of Bardon, and I had his 1st book in my possession for almost 20 years.
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby violetstar » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:33 pm

"Chumbley is different subject. Person who dies from trivial disease in his 30s can't be considered a serious magician."

This remark is totally unacceptable.A trivial disease? Someone dies young and that makes them invalid?

You are a fucking asshole.Now go and report this post you pathetic moron.

I was a personal friend of Andrew but I will pass on your remarks to his family.
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby Amavisso » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:30 pm

violetstar wrote:<snip>

I am not arguing about the nicety of that person. World has many good and nice people, but who happen to be just common people with little knowledge of occult. I don't argue that he was a nice person, who read a lot of books, but that doesn't make him "a witch".

Also, there are a lot of illusions about what concerns of Witchcraft. The first thing which is important to know: Witchcraft is based on knowledge and practice. Which also includes healing. Healing (or at least neutralizing) one's basic sicknesses is almost like first steps of Witchcraft.

I won't report you. It is up to you - to get upset by my words or focus on achieving real knowledge. I am not going to insist to be right and to push my "agenda" or smth, I am just calling to your senses so that you'd question yourself - what exactly Chumbley could do? if someone calls himself "a witch", he should know at least the very basics of the Art, otherwise he is just a quack. Do you want to be able to heal the sick, to learn the ways of Nature, to interact with various Spirits around and to learn various wonderful things? Or your way is to read books of some academics, who don't even know the world outside their small window, and to listen to "witches" who barely know the basics of Occult Art? Choice is yours, sincerely sorry that I made you upset.
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby blindwake » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:50 pm

Amavisso,

Your argument is flawed. First you idolize Bardon, then you discredit someone else because they died of sickness. Yet, from what I have read, Bardon was sick his entire life.

If you're going to say that the first steps are to be able to heal yourself, you've pretty much got to discredit Bardon as well.

You're cherry picking.

If the basics are healing, why aren't all the ancient masters still alive? Shouldn't they be "powerful" enough to be immortals? Everyone dies.
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby Amavisso » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:21 pm

blindwake wrote:Amavisso,

Your argument is flawed. First you idolize Bardon, then you discredit someone else because they died of sickness. Yet, from what I have read, Bardon was sick his entire life.

Bardon was healing quite a number of people, and some of that backfired on him (lot of people these days have various dirt and contagious diseases not only in their physical bodies but in astral bodies as well). It disrupted his health, so later he became more selective with whom he might heal.

He suffered from high blood pressure, and fixed it by one of his tinctures, but that made his overall blood pressure quite low. Which wasn't a big obstacle for him anyway.

IIRC he also suffered from thyroid, but he simply neutralized the flow of this sickness. He was almost not eating at all (by this I mean at all), exception was a weekly dinner with his relatives. With that he was quite fresh and healthy.

He was a man of high honor and he died in prison just in spite to power-hungry mongrels who incarcerated him. It doesn't compare to death from asthma. And he attained a place in better world.

His books also speak ahead of himself. If you read them properly (hard task in current age) and practice them, you will be surprised with results. They are also straight to the point.

Now what about Chumbley? Whom did he heal? Is Lumiel real? Why are conjurations in his books are totally devoid of any real *triggers*? And what is the aim of those conjurations? Who exactly is "Opposer"? His books are good as fantasy books with cool pictures. You won't heal a single person with it, won't charm anyone or protect anyone, won't call any Spirit outside of those from "Low" Astral, and even that will be just random occurrence.
blindwake wrote:If the basics are healing, why aren't all the ancient masters still alive? Shouldn't they be "powerful" enough to be immortals? Everyone dies.

This place is like Hell, so most truly accomplished Masters try to move to better worlds and never come back to this domain of lie, grief and pain. And of course there are "beings" who live physically on this Earth for hundreds of thousands of years. Eventually you might meet one of them, and your worldview will change radically. But with more knowledge comes great sorrow.
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby violetstar » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:16 pm

Amavisso wrote:
violetstar wrote:<snip>

I am not arguing about the nicety of that person. World has many good and nice people, but who happen to be just common people with little knowledge of occult. I don't argue that he was a nice person, who read a lot of books, but that doesn't make him "a witch".

Also, there are a lot of illusions about what concerns of Witchcraft. The first thing which is important to know: Witchcraft is based on knowledge and practice. Which also includes healing. Healing (or at least neutralizing) one's basic sicknesses is almost like first steps of Witchcraft.

I won't report you. It is up to you - to get upset by my words or focus on achieving real knowledge. I am not going to insist to be right and to push my "agenda" or smth, I am just calling to your senses so that you'd question yourself - what exactly Chumbley could do? if someone calls himself "a witch", he should know at least the very basics of the Art, otherwise he is just a quack. Do you want to be able to heal the sick, to learn the ways of Nature, to interact with various Spirits around and to learn various wonderful things? Or your way is to read books of some academics, who don't even know the world outside their small window, and to listen to "witches" who barely know the basics of Occult Art? Choice is yours, sincerely sorry that I made you upset.

You are a despicable moron that believes one persons death is less honourable than another.You did not know Chumbley or understand what he wrote.Now you begin to attack academics and try to convince us Incest is ok.And you say I should come to my senses??
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby blindwake » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:46 pm

Amavisso,

He was a man of high honor and he died in prison just in spite to power-hungry mongrels who incarcerated him. It doesn't compare to death from asthma. And he attained a place in better world.


There is never honor in death. Either way, the dead are a lost resource. The death method is irrelevant. You are biased.

His books also speak ahead of himself. If you read them properly (hard task in current age) and practice them, you will be surprised with results. They are also straight to the point.


I agree. IIH is one of my favorite books. I find that he did a rather poor job of explaining himself though, at least for the theory. It's all there, but you'll never understand it in the way he presents it, unless you already know what he means. It needs to be supplemented with other study.

Now what about Chumbley? Whom did he heal? Is Lumiel real? Why are conjurations in his books are totally devoid of any real *triggers*? And what is the aim of those conjurations? Who exactly is "Opposer"? His books are good as fantasy books with cool pictures. You won't heal a single person with it, won't charm anyone or protect anyone, won't call any Spirit outside of those from "Low" Astral, and even that will be just random occurrence.


I haven't read his works. I'm merely attacking your logic. You can't discredit someone's work based on how they died. Discredit their works for their works. Personal attacks are petty.

Reality seems to disagree with your opinion of his books though. Looking at goodreads, his books are all rated on average at 4.5 stars (out of 5). I just briefly looked at The Dragon-Book of Essex, and though it appears a little overly poetic, at the very least, it is a unique material that must provide much food for though. Again, you seem biased.

This place is like Hell, so most truly accomplished Masters try to move to better worlds and never come back to this domain of lie, grief and pain. And of course there are "beings" who live physically on this Earth for hundreds of thousands of years. Eventually you might meet one of them, and your worldview will change radically. But with more knowledge comes great sorrow.


I am sure there are very old masters, but on a whole, I think it's safe to say that most witches die.
Home is where the heart is. What is a "better" world? If a master had conquered this world, I don't think it would be hell anymore, as they would no longer be powerless. It would be their plaything. Their heaven.

Side note at violetstar,

try to convince us Incest is ok


Incest IS ok: https://www.quora.com/Is-incest-okay
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby violetstar » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:09 pm

"Side note at violetstar,

try to convince us Incest is ok


Incest IS ok: https://www.quora.com/Is-incest-okay"


I do not know where you reside but here in the UK incest is illegal and the majority view here is that it is a sick act committed by sick people.It is a criminal offence.Says a lot about anyone who advocates it.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/39/part/I/crossheading/incest-and-related-offences
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby Amavisso » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:52 pm

blindwake wrote:There is never honor in death. Either way, the dead are a lost resource. The death method is irrelevant. You are biased.

Some ways of death are harder to avoid than the others. And if death was inflicted by some evil person, be sure, the very Universe will calm the heart of the dead for this injustice. On other hand, Bardon could resist, he could escape, and it could lead to another cycle of war, to more deaths, because it would only provoke those power-hungry people for more bloodshed.

But if someone pretends to be electric but dies because he puts two fingers in the electric sockets, no matter how good that person is, he knows nothing about electricity. And if someone pretends to be dentist but dies from tooth abscess, well.... I am not sure why Witchcraft should be exception. We don't speak about death from cancer or aids here, we speak about banal asthma...
I agree. IIH is one of my favorite books. I find that he did a rather poor job of explaining himself though, at least for the theory. It's all there, but you'll never understand it in the way he presents it, unless you already know what he means. It needs to be supplemented with other study.

I fully agree with that. Reading his books requires a certain level of "attunement", but what I found as best approach is simply working step by step and seeking similar information in other sources.
I haven't read his works. I'm merely attacking your logic. You can't discredit someone's work based on how they died. Discredit their works for their works. Personal attacks are petty.

It isn't personal attack. I am simply too pragmatic to the point I slightly hate myself. We have a lot of people in my land who claim to be clairvoyants and such, but reality test shows them as simply pretenders. It is easy to fall for illusion in this world full of illusions, and there are no traces in C.'s books that show him as a wise man. His books are very misleading and deceptive with all that self-invented alphabet, pentagrammaton, etc.
Reality seems to disagree with your opinion of his books though. Looking at goodreads, his books are all rated on average at 4.5 stars (out of 5). I just briefly looked at The Dragon-Book of Essex, and though it appears a little overly poetic, at the very least, it is a unique material that must provide much food for though. Again, you seem biased.

I did read Dragon Book couple years ago and I was disappointed with C. even more. It is like he describes some exotic ways to make big picnics with no real goal. The few straightforward energy practices in the book are subpar to initial levels of Yoga and without proper purifications, which C. omits, it is not possible to get anything good out of them. Pictures are cool, but that's it. People like cool pictures and seemingly enigmatic and creepy texts, so they rate it so high. And people also don't like to feel as if they wasted their money, so they try to justify expenses. And you can see it yourself, this book is shamelessly overpriced to the point when it is not even funny. I feel sad for those people who paid their last money for this and found nothing but blah-blah-blah inside...
I am sure there are very old masters, but on a whole, I think it's safe to say that most witches die.
Home is where the heart is. What is a "better" world? If a master had conquered this world, I don't think it would be hell anymore, as they would no longer be powerless. It would be their plaything. Their heaven.

What seems to be some "super power" in this world are actually normal abilities in better worlds. And they are better worlds because there is no strife, no wars, no hunger, etc. Higher worlds are filled with more love, more stability, there you can easily see true Occult Sun, and it is easier to improve from there. So it is easy to see why most of masters and witches prefer to not remain in this world for longer than needed.
Violetstar wrote:I do not know where you reside but here in the UK incest is illegal and the majority view here is that it is a sick act committed by sick people.It is a criminal offence.Says a lot about anyone who advocates it.

There are still countries where practicing Witchcraft is illegal. Only few decades ago same-sex relationship was considered a crime punishable by death in many countries. So what? Don't judge others for what doesn't concern you, unless you want to be judged for something which doesn't concern others.
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby blindwake » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:53 am

Some ways of death are harder to avoid than the others. And if death was inflicted by some evil person, be sure, the very Universe will calm the heart of the dead for this injustice. On other hand, Bardon could resist, he could escape, and it could lead to another cycle of war, to more deaths, because it would only provoke those power-hungry people for more bloodshed.

But if someone pretends to be electric but dies because he puts two fingers in the electric sockets, no matter how good that person is, he knows nothing about electricity. And if someone pretends to be dentist but dies from tooth abscess, well.... I am not sure why Witchcraft should be exception. We don't speak about death from cancer or aids here, we speak about banal asthma...


I suppose that's fair. But even the best of people make mistakes. An easily avoidable death is not necessarily indicative of a lack of ability. It could be just poor circumstance. I still hold that death is not directly related to skill (though a correlation is there).

It isn't personal attack. I am simply too pragmatic to the point I slightly hate myself. We have a lot of people in my land who claim to be clairvoyants and such, but reality test shows them as simply pretenders. It is easy to fall for illusion in this world full of illusions, and there are no traces in C.'s books that show him as a wise man. His books are very misleading and deceptive with all that self-invented alphabet, pentagrammaton, etc.


They look verbose. Agreed.

I did read Dragon Book couple years ago and I was disappointed with C. even more. It is like he describes some exotic ways to make big picnics with no real goal. The few straightforward energy practices in the book are subpar to initial levels of Yoga and without proper purifications, which C. omits, it is not possible to get anything good out of them. Pictures are cool, but that's it. People like cool pictures and seemingly enigmatic and creepy texts, so they rate it so high. And people also don't like to feel as if they wasted their money, so they try to justify expenses. And you can see it yourself, this book is shamelessly overpriced to the point when it is not even funny. I feel sad for those people who paid their last money for this and found nothing but blah-blah-blah inside...


Looking at prices just now, that seems accurate. A glance at the book reminds me of correspondence circlejerk: this means that, which means that, which means... never actually gets to a rooted meaning.

What seems to be some "super power" in this world are actually normal abilities in better worlds. And they are better worlds because there is no strife, no wars, no hunger, etc. Higher worlds are filled with more love, more stability, there you can easily see true Occult Sun, and it is easier to improve from there. So it is easy to see why most of masters and witches prefer to not remain in this world for longer than needed.


"super" just means "difficult" within a specific environment. Walking is normal here, but in some other world where everyone crawls because of high gravity, it is an amazing feat.
I'm not sure "better" is accurate. I see worlds more like games. You don't go where it's safe. You go where there's a challenge / fun. I could see bored souls coming here again and again for entertainment.
For the less masochistically inclined, however, I can see where you have a point.

I do not know where you reside but here in the UK incest is illegal and the majority view here is that it is a sick act committed by sick people.It is a criminal offence.Says a lot about anyone who advocates it.


So what if something is illegal? That doesn't make it bad. I don't have a working definition for "sick", so that sentence lost a lot of gravity on me. Unless you mean sick in the medical sense, but I don't think atypical belief systems would qualify as mental illnesses. I agree with that last statement. Advocacy makes me a free thinker (pats self on back).
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Re: Warned not to Summon Angels?

Postby Stukov » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:46 am

Having an opinion about someone dying or not liking the magical practice is not a reason to get upset and attack them. Making comments about someone dying as a measure to dismiss their ideas only serves to inflame the community.

Discuss the ideas. Conversely keep the topics on point. Thread will be locked for people to cool off, after that keep the subject on topic, if you wish to discuss something other than what the OP is about, go make a new thread. If someone says something you don't like, walk away, if it is something rule breaking or warrants my attention, report it. Consider the words you say and how it can have an impact on the community. Further back and forth in this thread after it is unlocked will result in warnings.
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