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Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

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Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Master Baphomet » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:56 am

Having looked over dozens of different trial records and confessions of accused Witches brought before European courts throughout the Middle Ages and up through the 1600's, a common feature of such documents becomes immediately apparent - in nearly every case of a woman accused of cavorting with "the Devil", the Devil is almost invariably described as being a "black man". Could race-mixing have been the real reason behind the thousands of cases of women being accused, convicted and executed in their own communities?

I should probably state here that I am not suggesting that actual Witchcraft or Witches had anything at all to do with interracial sex with negroes. I'm merely stating that it is possible that in a number of cases women were convicted and executed for being "Witches" when in fact they weren't Witches at all, but were White women who disregarded social convention and had affairs with Black men - something that was not itself an actual crime, but in order to punish these women for breaking the cultural taboo against interracial sex, they were accused of being Witches and having relations with the Devil - which at that time was a crime punishable by death.

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Temptation on the Mount, painted circa 1311, shows the devil as a black man

The Witch hunt hysteria that swept through much of Europe beginning in the Middle Ages seemed to have reached a fevered pitch during the Renaissance, particularly during the period of religious upheaval brought about by the Protestant Reformation in the 1600's. This was also a time when negroes, who had been imported into Europe as servants since the Middle Ages, began to be seen more and more frequently as Spanish, Portuguese, English and Dutch traders became involved with the African slave trade, supplying negro slaves to the plantations in the New World colonies, but also importing them as domestic servants in the households of European gentry.

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A Knight With Two Pages, painted by Paris Bordone (1500-1571)

Since the vast majority of such Africans practiced their own pre-Christian tribal religions that were native to their culture, which often involved the practice of magical rites and rituals; such beliefs would have accompanied their introduction into European society and they may have revealed these to members of the White peasant-class, with whom the negro servants would have had the closest association, as many European peasants were employed in servile positions themselves.

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Two Peasant Boys and a Negro Boy by Bartolome Esteban Murillo, painted in 1660

The 1664 confession of Isobel Gowdie, a Scottish woman, provides what must be the most detailed description of her dealings with "the devil", who she describes as "a great, black, rough man":

As I was going between the towns of Drumdewin and the Headis, the Devil met with me, and there I covenanted with him, and promised to meet him, in the night time, in the Church of Aulderne ; which I did. He stood in the Readers desk, and an black book in his hand; where I stood before him, and renounced Jesus Christ and my baptism; and all between the sole of my foot and the crown of my head, I gave freely up and over to the Devil. Margaret Brodie, in Aulderne, held me up to the Devil, until he re-baptized me, and marked me in the shoulder, and with his mouth sucked out my blood at that place, and spat it in his hand, and sprinkling it upon my head and face, he said, ' I baptize ye, Janet, to my self, in my own name!' Within a while thereafter we all removed. And within few days he came to me, in the New Wards of Inshoch, and there had carnal copulation with me. He was a very great black rough man. He will lie all heavy upon us, when he has carnal dealing with us, like an malt-sack. His members are exceedingly great and long; no mans members are so long and big as they are. He would be amongst us like a wild horse amongst mares. He would lie with us in presence of all the multitude; neither had we nor he any kind of shame; but especially he hes no shame with him at all. He wold lye and have carnal dealing with all, at every time, as he pleased. He would have carnal dealing with us in the shape of a deer or any other shape that he would be in. We would never refuse him. He wold come to my house-top in the shape of a crow, or like a deer, or in any other shape, now and then. I would know his voice, at the first hearing of it, and would go forth to him and have carnal copulation with him. The youngest and lustiest women will have very great pleasure in their carnal copulation with him, yea much more than with their own husbands; and they will haw a exceeding great desire of it with him, as much as he can have to them, and more; and never think shame of it. He is abler for us that way than any man can be (Alas! that I should compare him to any man!) only he was heavy like a malt-sack; a huge nature, very cold, as ice.


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In the 1591 trial of Barbara Napier, one of a number of women arrested and accused of being Witches in North Berwick, Scotland, the "devil" was described in a similar manner:

"The Devil started up in the pulpit, like a large, black man, with a black beard sticking out like a goat's beard; and a high-ribbed nose falling down sharp like the beak of a hawk"


In her 1662 confession, a Scottish Witch named Marie Lamont stated:

"The Devil came to Katherine Scott's house in the midst of the night, he was in the likeness of a large black man, and sang to them and they danced. He gave them wine to drink and wheat bread to eat and they were all very merry."


The trial record of Annabel Stuart, one of several members of a family in Paisley, Scotland, accused in 1677 of being Witches, contains a strikingly similar description:

As first of Annabel Stuart of the age of fourteen years or thereby, who declared that she was brought in the presence of the justices for the crime of Witchcraft; and declared that on harvest last, the Devil in the shape of a black man came to her mother's house, and required the declarant to give herself up to him; and that the Devil promised her that she should not want anything that was good.

Declares that she being enticed by her mother, Janet Mathie, and Bessie Weir who was officer to their several meetings, she put her hand to the crown of her head, and the other to the sole of her foot, and did give herself to the Devil.

Declares that her mother promised her a new coat for her doing of it. Declares that her spirit's name is Enippa, and that the Devil took her by the hand and nipped her arm, which continued to be sore for half an hour.

Declares that the black man, Janet Mathie, the declarant's mother (whose spirit's name was Landlady), Bessie Weir, whose spirit's name is Sopha, Margaret Craig, whose spirit's name is Rigerum, and Margaret Jackson, whose spirit's name is Locas, were all present....Declares that the black man's name is Ejoall.


Among the various trial records are confessions made by alleged Witches that when their coven met, everyone had to bow down and kiss the "Devil" on his buttocks (irrespective of their gender).

In her last confession, the Scottish Witch, Isobel Gowdie, offers a vivid description of the sort of activity that often occurred when her coven met, some of which verges on BDSM type behavior:

When we are at meat, or in any other place whatever, the Maiden of each Coven sits above the rest, next to the Devil; and she serves the Devil, for all the old people that he cares not for, and are weak and unfit for him. He will be with her and us all like a wild horse after mares; and sometimes a man, but very willful in carnal copulation at all times; and they even so as willful and desirous of him. Sometimes, among ourselves, we would be calling him "Black John" or the like, and he would know it, and hear us well enough; and he even then would come to us, and say, "I know well enough what ye were saying of me!" And then he would beat and buffet us very sore. We would be beaten if we were absent any time, or neglected anything that would be appointed to be done. Alexander Elder, in Earlseat, would be very often beaten. He is but soft, and could never defend himself in the least, but would grieve and cry, when he would be scourging him. But Margret Wilson, in Aulderne, would defend herself finely, and cast up her hands to keep the strokes off from her; and Bessie Wilson would speak crustily with her tongue, and would be belling again to him stoutly. He would be beating and scourging us all up and down with [wool] cards and other sharp scourges, like naked gouges; and we would be still crying, "Pity! pity! Mercy! mercy, our Lord!" But he would have neither pity nor mercy. When he would be angry at us, he would grin at us like a dog, as if he would swallow us up. Sometimes he would be like a steer, a bull, a deer, a roe, or a dog, etc., and have dealing with us ; and he would hold up his tail until we would kiss his ass. And at each time, when we would meet with him, we behoove to rise and make our curtsey; and we would say, "Ye are welcome our Lord!" and "How do ye, my Lord!" etc.


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A period illustration of the "Devil" giving a Witch her familiar spirit, from "A Complete History of Magick, Sorcery, and Witchcraft" by E.Curil J. Pemberton and W. Taylor, 1715-16

If White women were in fact having clandestine trysts with Black men in villages across medieval and Renaissance Europe, certainly the accusation of their being Witches would have afforded a convenient criminal charge with which they could ostensibly be prosecuted and punished for the socially reprehensible (though not illegal) act of fornication with a man of a different race. The crime of Witchcraft being punishable by death, would likely have suited the purposes of outraged family members, neighbors and community leaders in those days as a means of ridding society of women who dared to have sexual relations with Blacks during that era.

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Othello and Desdemona, by Leo Lerch, depicting characters from Shakespeare's 1603 play The Tragedy of Othello, the Moor of Venice, in which Othello is accused of seducing Desdemona by means of Witchcraft.

The Bideford witch trial resulted in hangings for witchcraft in England. Temperance Lloyd, Mary Trembles and Susannah Edwards were tried in 1682 in the town of Bideford in Devon. Much of the evidence against them was hearsay, although there was a confession by Lloyd, which she did not fully recant even with her execution imminent. They often get labeled as the 'last' witches to be hanged in England but there are several not so well documented cases after this.

On Saturday, July 1682, Thomas Eastchurch, a Bideford shopkeeper, complained to some of the town’s constables that Temperance Lloyd had been practicing witchcraft. The constables arrested Temperance Lloyd and locked her in the old chapel at the end of the bridge, where she remained until taken before the justices, Thomas Gist, Mayor of Bideford, and John Davie, Alderman, on the Monday morning. The charges were: "suspicion of having used some magical art, sorcery or witchcraft upon the body of Grace Thomas and to have had discourse or familiarity with the devil in the likeness or shape of a black man." Grace Thomas thought that Temperance Lloyd was responsible for her illness, because the previous September, Lloyd had wept with joy and expressed pleasure in seeing that Thomas had regained her health.

Another woman, Anne Wakely, had seen a magpie fly to Thomas's chamber window. Suspecting witchcraft, she questioned Lloyd, and found her in the company of another. They found "in her secret parts two teats hanging nigh together like unto a piece of flesh that a child had sucked. And that each of the teat was about an inch in length."

All the other evidence against Lloyd was hearsay, mostly claims to have overheard confessions by her. There were six such statements, including a claim by Anne Wakely that Lloyd was visited by the "black man" in the form of a bird. Wakely also said that Lloyd told her the black man had sucked at her extra teats.

Thomas Eastchurch’s statement was held to be important, as he was a respected town gentleman; however, again his evidence was simply that he overheard Lloyd confess while she was in Bideford lock-up the previous day. He stated that she confessed to meeting "something in the likeness of a black man" who tempted her to go and torment Grace Thomas. Eastchurch claimed that at first she refused but then agreed, following him to Thomas's home where the black man told her to pinch Thomas several times. She is then said, on leaving the house, to have seen a tabby cat go into Eastchurch's shop; she believed it to be the Devil.

At a later date, she met the black man again, who told her to kill Thomas, "whereupon Temperance did go to his house with the black man and that she went into the chamber where Grace Thomas lay, and further did confess that she did pinch and prick Grace Thomas again in several parts of her body, declaring with both of her hands how she did do it, and that thereupon Grace Thomas did cry out terribly." The black man, according to Eastchurch's statement, had told Lloyd she would be invisible during this attack. He also claimed that another, similar attack on Thomas followed.

Eastchurch then gave evidence that Grace Thomas sought medical help for her complaints.

His wife Elizabeth, Grace’s sister, stated that Thomas found nine pricks in her knee, and suspecting witchcraft, confronted Lloyd, who replied that she had pricked a piece of leather nine times.

The justices gave their permission for Lloyd to be questioned by the rector, Michael Ogilby. Although she confessed to turning into a cat, stealing a doll and placing it in Thomas's bedchamber, she denied using image magic despite specific questioning by Ogilby.

William Herbert was the final witness against Temperance Lloyd. On 2 February 1671, he had heard his father William "declare on his deathbed that Temperance Lloyd... had bewitched him unto death." After he died, William saw marks on his body, and had Lloyd charged with witchcraft; she was acquitted at the ensuing trial.

On July 3, Temperance Lloyd was herself questioned by the justices, and she admitted all the charges made against her. The following day, in prison she admitted killing William Herbert, Lydia Burman and Anne Fellow, and blinding Jane Dallyn in one eye. She admitted all of this as she believed she was still under the black man's protection.

On July 8, Temperance Lloyd was committed to Exeter Gaol to await trial for witchcraft. At the trial she maintained her guilt.

At the execution, she tried to give a reason for her actions: "the Devil met me in the street, and bid me kill her, and because I would not he beat me about the head and back."

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Witches being instructed by the "Devil" in the form of a black man on how to make use of effigies to perform malefic magic, from Joseph Glanvil's Saducismus Triumphatus, published in 1681

In the trial of the North Berwick Witches, who were accused of plotting to bring about the death of King James VI of Scotland using Witchcraft, Barbara Napier, one of the accused testified:

Upon Lammas-eve last, at the new haven called Aitcheson's Haven, between Musselbright and Prestonpans, since his Majesty came forth of Denmark; where was assemble nine principals....which nine persons, the Devil, who was with them in likeness of a black man, thought most meet to do the turn for which they were convened; and thereafter, he set them nine nearest to himself, in a company; and they, togther with the wife of Saltoun Mile and the rest of the inferiors, to the number of thirty persons, standing scarce the length of a board from the foresaid nine persons, in another company; Agnes Sampson proposed the destruction of His Highness' person, saying to the Devil "We have a turn to do, and we would soon be at it if we could, and thereafter help us to it." The Devil answered, he should do what he could, but it would be long to, because it would be thwarted; and he promised to her and them a picture of wax....At which convention, His Highness' name was pronounced in Latin; and Agnes Sampson was appointed to make the picture and to give it to the Devil to be enchanted, which she made indeed, and gave it to him; and he promised to give it to the said Barbara and to Effie McCalaine, at the next meeting, to be roasted.....and suchlike the said Barbara was accused, that she gave her bodily presence upon All Hallows' Even lastwise 1590 years, to the frequent convention held at North Berwick, where she danced endlong the churchyard and Gillie Duncan played on a trump, John Fian led the ring; Agnes Sampson and her daughters and all the rest followed the said Barbara to the number of seven or more persons.....At which place and time, the women made first their homage, and were turned six times widdershins about; John Fian blew up the church doors, and blew in the lights, which were like black candles, held in an old man's hand, 'round about the pulpit. And the Devil....called on every one of them, desiring them all to be good servants to him, and he would be a good master to them, and they should have enough and never want. For Robert Greirson and John Fian stood on his left hand; and the said Robert found great fault with the Devil, and cried out, that all which were beside might hear, because His Highness' picture was not given them, as was promised; the said Effie McCalaine remembered and bid the said Robert Grierson to ask for the picture, meaning his Majesty's picture which should have been roasted. Robert Grierson said their words, "Where is the thing ye promised?" meaning the picture of wax, devised for roasting and undoing His Highness' person, which Agnes Sampson gave to him; and Robert cried to "have the turn done," yet His Highness' name was not named, 'til they that were women named him; crafted in plain terms His Highness' picture. But he answered, "It was not ready at that time". Robert Grierson answered, "Ye promised twice and beguiled us". And four honest-like women were very earnest and insisted to have it. And the said Barbara and Effie McCalaine got them a promise of the Devil, that His Highness' picture was the cause of that assembly.


The longstanding notion that the Devil of Christian mythology was a black man may in fact be derived from ancient classical literature which provides accounts of the mythological race of beings known as Satyrs, who had the upper bodies of men, but the legs and horns of goats, which were said to be native to Africa.

In his work Natural History, the first century Roman writer, Pliny the Elder includes Satyrs among "the manifold, strange, and wonderful forms and shapes of men" inhabiting Ethiopia:

As for the position and situation of Ethiopia, it lies southeast and southwest. In the meridian south parts thereof, there be great woods of Ebene especially, always green. Toward the middle of this region, there is a mighty high mountain looking over the sea, that burns continually, which the Greeks call Theon-ochema, that is to say, the chariot of the gods: from the which it is counted four days journey by sea to the promontory or cape called Hesperion Ceras, which confines upon Africa, near to the Hesperian Ethiopians. Some writers hold, that this tract is beautified with pretty little hills, and those pleasantly clad and garnished with shadowy groves, wherein the Aegipanes and Satyrs do converse.


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Statue of a Satyr as depicted in Greek mythology. Satyrs were frequently portrayed as sexually insatiable and indiscriminate beings, with a strong fondness of drink and music, attributes often associated in the popular imagination with men of sub-Saharan African descent.

In many versions of the Bible, Isaiah 13:21 and 34:14, the English word "satyr" is used to represent the Hebrew se'irim, "hairy ones," from "sa'ir" or "goat". There is an allusion to the practice of sacrificing to the se'irim (KJV "devils"; ASV "he-goats") in Leviticus 17:7. They may correspond to the "shaggy demon of the mountain-pass" (azabb al-‘akaba) of old Arab legend. It may otherwise refer to literal goats, and the worship of such.

In subsequent Christian legends, St. Nicholas of Myra is said to have defeated and enslaved a demon, making him a servant. In later folklore this demon is usually depicted as black and accompanies St. Nicholas in annual Christmas visits to children, serving as a warning to naughty boys and girls that bad behavior will be punished. In the Netherlands this character is known as Zwarte Piet ("Black Peter") and is usually depicted as a Blackamoor, though in Austria is is known as Krampus and is portrayed as a satyr-like black devil.

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19th century depiction of Krampus punishing naughty children

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Early 20th century postcard showing Krampus accompanying St. Nicholas on his Christmas rounds.
"If I beheld the sun when it shined, or the moon walking in brightness; and my heart hath been secretly enticed, or my mouth hath kissed my hand....I should deny that there is a God above.....neither have I suffered my mouth to sin."
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby EternalReturn » Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:40 pm

Bravo! Great article [thumbup]
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Nahemah » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:06 pm

I think you are conflating a colour with a group of people erroneously.

Lots of pictures, next to lots of text, which incidentally appear unrelated to each other in any meaningful form apart from the time frame they share, does not build a representative case for your argument.

Correlation also does not equal causation.

I would advise also, that you refrain as much as possible from using the term 'Negro' unless it's in direct reference to a quoted source from the period, as it is considered a perjorative term these days and rightly so.

The Witchcraft hysteria in Europe was politically and socially motivated.It was a deliberate stirring up of fear and hatred designed to purge any ideas of equality and social justice that the poor and disenfranchised might have possessed, it was a terrible abuse on all concerned, whatever their 'race' or ethnicity might have been.

I can bring as many factual evidences and resources as necessary, to back what I'm saying here, unless I hit the search in a lazy moment,as I've done this previously multiple times over before.

If you think you do have a case for this idea, you need to provide evidence which directly ties witchcraft and skin colour together and it needs to be cohesive enough to show that you have a sound basis for this argument. One rare example would not be enough and there must be recorded evidence of it, such as multiple accusations or court records and so on.

The North Berwick trials use of the term 'likeness of a black man' does not mean what you think either, as recorders would have used the term 'negro' [or worse] to define a dark skinned living person,so the' black 'is a literal reference to the actual colour,as in demonically coloured, which along with red,were the two most often used colours, associated with the 'devil' or 'demons' at that time. Anti Papery was in full flow in Scotland in the 1600s and this is a significant factor in these interpretations of 'evil tones'. So, the mentioning of the colour black in trial records and Christian theology etc. does not mean what you think it does, as we knew of and used this colour for various themes and identifications, long prior to slavery in Europe.

You should perhaps also, read a lot more thoroughly on the origins and traditions of Krampus.

We do know there was slavery in Europe, so that's not being questioned here and we know there were witch trials too, but what we still don't know however, is whether they are connected, or connected enough, to carry your argument.

And, as previously mentioned, pictures of slave owners with their slaves shows us nothing, other than that they owned slaves.
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Master Baphomet » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:14 pm

What race was Tituba?

I'll pose another question to you: If you were a White man living in Europe in the 1600s and you had the mindset and motivation of a White man of the 1600s, how do you think that you would have reacted to the discovery of a White woman of your community having carnal relations with a black man? Do you think that White men of the 1600s would have had any reaction other than wanting to punish such a woman with a brutal death, or that they would have hesitated to use religion as a means of carrying out her execution for having relations with a man of sub-Saharan African descent?

Also, why is the word "negro" pejorative? It merely means "black" from the Latin word, niger meaning "black"; which the last time I checked was the name of a country in Africa.
Last edited by Master Baphomet on Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If I beheld the sun when it shined, or the moon walking in brightness; and my heart hath been secretly enticed, or my mouth hath kissed my hand....I should deny that there is a God above.....neither have I suffered my mouth to sin."
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Nahemah » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:23 pm

I believe she was of the human race, just like the rest of us.Why?

And, If you are switching you argument to the Americas, you'll need to rewrite most of your previous post content, by the way.

Also, the rest of your last post is entirely speculative and quite wildly so, but I will respond to it later, with all due consideration, when I return.

I have to go offline now. IRL to do.
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby EternalReturn » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:41 pm

He presents a really compelling case. If it is true or not, I cannot say nor I will put it in either category. It merely is a hypothesis.

But it is interesting to see this associations like:

Devils, demons - black with a goatee, animals, uncivilized, screams, blood, fear

It kinda seems to have some kind of connection with the culture of the African people seen from the perspective of "civilized" Europeans of that time. Even during 19th century, enlightened, learned men tried to "civilize" a barbarian because he has some kind of disability that can be overcome with intellect and learning. Also:

Hell - hot place, no water, flames, death and it is sometimes said to be south or in the opposite direction of Heaven (up, north)

Kinda reminds you of Sahara desert.
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Master Baphomet » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:49 pm

EternalReturn wrote:He presents a really compelling case. If it is true or not, I cannot say nor I will put it in either category. It merely is a hypothesis.

But it is interesting to see this associations like:

Devils, demons - black with a goatee, animals, uncivilized, screams, blood, fear

It kinda seems to have some kind of connection with the culture of the African people seen from the perspective of "civilized" Europeans of that time. Even during 19th century, enlightened, learned men tried to "civilize" a barbarian because he has some kind of disability that can be overcome with intellect and learning. Also:

Hell - hot place, no water, flames, death and it is sometimes said to be south or in the opposite direction of Heaven (up, north)

Kinda reminds you of Sahara desert.


If Tolkien's Middle Earth was the world we live in, Mordor would be located in the Middle East and the Haradwaith would be Saharan Africa.
"If I beheld the sun when it shined, or the moon walking in brightness; and my heart hath been secretly enticed, or my mouth hath kissed my hand....I should deny that there is a God above.....neither have I suffered my mouth to sin."
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Master Baphomet » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:52 pm

Nahemah wrote:I believe she was of the human race, just like the rest of us.Why?

And, If you are switching you argument to the Americas, you'll need to rewrite most of your previous post content, by the way.

Also, the rest of your last post is entirely speculative and quite wildly so, but I will respond to it later, with all due consideration, when I return.

I have to go offline now. IRL to do.


You seem defensive and overly anxious to maintain the approved of version of history that has been vetted by those who make it their job to decide what the rest of us are taught to believe in order to serve the agenda of those in charge.

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"If I beheld the sun when it shined, or the moon walking in brightness; and my heart hath been secretly enticed, or my mouth hath kissed my hand....I should deny that there is a God above.....neither have I suffered my mouth to sin."
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Nahemah » Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:48 pm

You seem defensive and overly anxious to maintain the approved of version of history that has been vetted by those who make it their job to decide what the rest of us are taught to believe in order to serve the agenda of those in charge.


Perspective is everything, lol.

So, by refuting your poorly laid out argument, I must therefore 'seem' to be 'anxious' and/or 'defensive'?

And does your complete lack of credible evidence so far,really mean that anyone, myself included, who refutes your statements must therefore be conspiring to keep the truth hidden from you and/or 'the rest of us' ?

I put it to you that it is you who is coming across as defensive here and perhaps also, more than a little aggresively so.

Please put your straw men away now and address the counter points that were made, if you can.

I've used that Voltaire meme dozens of times myself,it is rather lovely isn't it?

But, did you know that Voltaire, like so many European, light skinned wealthy men of his time, was quite the racist himself?

No one on this forum is immune to criticism,incidentally, but only if that criticism actually comes from the arguments and points they make or defend or introduce, rather than their member status, personality or perceived/implied personal qualities. For further information on this, please regard what is meant by the term 'straw man argument' and for further details on all of the above, look up the terms : 'Logical fallacy' and 'critical thinking.'
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Master Baphomet » Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:54 pm

Nahemah wrote:
You seem defensive and overly anxious to maintain the approved of version of history that has been vetted by those who make it their job to decide what the rest of us are taught to believe in order to serve the agenda of those in charge.


Perspective is everything, lol.

So, by refuting your poorly laid out argument, I must therefore 'seem' to be 'anxious' and/or 'defensive'?

And does your complete lack of credible evidence so far,really mean that anyone, myself included, who refutes your statements must therefore be conspiring to keep the truth hidden from you and/or 'the rest of us' ?

I put it to you that it is you who is coming across as defensive here and perhaps also, more than a little aggresively so.

Please put your straw men away now and address the counter points that were made, if you can.

I've used that Voltaire meme dozens of times myself,it is rather lovely isn't it?

But, did you know that Voltaire, like so many European, light skinned wealthy men of his time, was quite the racist himself?

No one on this forum is immune to criticism,incidentally, but only if that criticism actually comes from the arguments and points they make or defend or introduce, rather than their member status, personality or perceived/implied personal qualities. For further information on this, please regard what is meant by the term 'straw man argument' and for further details on all of the above, look up the terms : 'Logical fallacy' and 'critical thinking.'


I'm guessing that you are a liberal.
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby EternalReturn » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:07 pm

Political stance is quality of man/argument? Really?
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Nahemah » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:08 pm

Stop now.

No really, stop it.

I really do advise you check the terms I gave you in my last post, it may help you understand why you should stop before you ruin your own topic.That would be a shame,as there is much within it that can be easily addressed and /or refuted by remaining civil and keeping the references and points pertinent to the discussion rather than the people involved in the discussion.

I've begun my refutation now :

Lets start with Negro and why it is considered perjorative:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/negro


Negro
[nee-groh]

Word Origin

noun, plural Negroes.
1.
Anthropology. (no longer in technical use) a member of the peoples traditionally classified as the Negro race, especially those who originate in sub-Saharan Africa.
2.
Older Use: Often Offensive. a black person.
adjective
3.
Anthropology. (no longer in technical use) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of one of the traditional racial divisions of humankind, generally marked by brown to black skin pigmentation, dark eyes, and tightly curled hair and including especially the indigenous peoples of Africa south of the Sahara.
4.
being a member of the black peoples of humankind, especially those who originate in sub-Saharan Africa.

Explanation 4, is of the more traditional colonial style,but the preceding 3 explanations are more than enough to tell why it is considered perjorative to us now.

'Negro' is an enforced term of reference and one which the people it refers to did not know themselves by or refer to themselves as before European colonialism.You are correct that it has Latin origins, though here it was mostly relative to Portugese and if you click the link and look at the map you will see why it was given to the slaves taken from Sub Saharan Africa, originally.
The country Niger is also named after the European terms for the river that flows through it but it is also known by multiple other and older names, depending on which ethnic group you ask to name it.

I'l return with more to back up my viewpoints in a little while.I have fact checked and I'm now collating the information to present here later.

It would be most constructive if you could now do similar, instead of making personally directed comments at me.
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Nahemah » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:10 pm

To digress, momentarily:

I was merely pointing out the irony in using Voltaire in this discussion, that is all.
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Master Baphomet » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:23 pm

Nahemah wrote:
Perspective is everything, lol.

So, by refuting your poorly laid out argument, I must therefore 'seem' to be 'anxious' and/or 'defensive'?

And does your complete lack of credible evidence so far,really mean that anyone, myself included, who refutes your statements must therefore be conspiring to keep the truth hidden from you and/or 'the rest of us' ?

I put it to you that it is you who is coming across as defensive here and perhaps also, more than a little aggresively so.

Please put your straw men away now and address the counter points that were made, if you can.


Okay, I guess I can do that:

Nahemah wrote:I think you are conflating a colour with a group of people erroneously.

Lots of pictures, next to lots of text, which incidentally appear unrelated to each other in any meaningful form apart from the time frame they share, does not build a representative case for your argument.

Correlation also does not equal causation.


When someone uses the phrase "a black man" what does it mean to you? I tend to apply Occam's razor when subjectively attempting to discern the situation of any given scenario. If we apply Occam's razor to the above question, the answer is obvious.

Nahemah wrote:The Witchcraft hysteria in Europe was politically and socially motivated.It was a deliberate stirring up of fear and hatred designed to purge any ideas of equality and social justice that the poor and disenfranchised might have possessed, it was a terrible abuse on all concerned, whatever their 'race' or ethnicity might have been.


I haven't in any way argued otherwise. In fact my argument goes along with what you stated quite perfectly.

Nahemah wrote:I can bring as many factual evidences and resources as necessary, to back what I'm saying here, unless I hit the search in a lazy moment,as I've done this previously multiple times over before.


Reminds me of what a certain group always says about another certain group who they claim committed genocide against them "They kept very good recods" and yet none of these records are ever produced.

Nahemah wrote:If you think you do have a case for this idea, you need to provide evidence which directly ties witchcraft and skin colour together and it needs to be cohesive enough to show that you have a sound basis for this argument. One rare example would not be enough and there must be recorded evidence of it, such as multiple accusations or court records and so on.


I've already do this. You just weren't happy with my conclusion.

Nahemah wrote:The North Berwick trials use of the term 'likeness of a black man' does not mean what you think either, as recorders would have used the term 'negro' [or worse] to define a dark skinned living person,so the' black 'is a literal reference to the actual colour,as in demonically coloured, which along with red,were the two most often used colours, associated with the 'devil' or 'demons' at that time. Anti Papery was in full flow in Scotland in the 1600s and this is a significant factor in these interpretations of 'evil tones'. So, the mentioning of the colour black in trial records and Christian theology etc. does not mean what you think it does, as we knew of and used this colour for various themes and identifications, long prior to slavery in Europe.


Are you seriously suggesting that an actual black demonic spirit in the form of Old Nick convened with Dr. Fian and company?

Nahemah wrote:You should perhaps also, read a lot more thoroughly on the origins and traditions of Krampus.


Perhaps you should.

Nahemah wrote:We do know there was slavery in Europe, so that's not being questioned here and we know there were witch trials too, but what we still don't know however, is whether they are connected, or connected enough, to carry your argument.


So you are admitting that you reacted defensively to uphold the status quo version of history without knowing if the alternative I put forth might be equally plausible?

Nahemah wrote:And, as previously mentioned, pictures of slave owners with their slaves shows us nothing, other than that they owned slaves.


They prove that a few negroes were running around in Europe during the times when accused Witches confessed to having had sexual relations with black men.
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Master Baphomet » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:30 pm

Nahemah wrote:Lets start with Negro and why it is considered perjorative:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/negro


Negro
[nee-groh]

Word Origin

noun, plural Negroes.
1.
Anthropology. (no longer in technical use) a member of the peoples traditionally classified as the Negro race, especially those who originate in sub-Saharan Africa.
2.
Older Use: Often Offensive. a black person.
adjective
3.
Anthropology. (no longer in technical use) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of one of the traditional racial divisions of humankind, generally marked by brown to black skin pigmentation, dark eyes, and tightly curled hair and including especially the indigenous peoples of Africa south of the Sahara.
4.
being a member of the black peoples of humankind, especially those who originate in sub-Saharan Africa.

Explanation 4, is of the more traditional colonial style,but the preceding 3 explanations are more than enough to tell why it is considered perjorative to us now.

'Negro' is an enforced term of reference and one which the people it refers to did not know themselves by or refer to themselves as before European colonialism.You are correct that it has Latin origins, though here it was mostly relative to Portugese and if you click the link and look at the map you will see why it was given to the slaves taken from Sub Saharan Africa, originally.
The country Niger is also named after the European terms for the river that flows through it but it is also known by multiple other and older names, depending on which ethnic group you ask to name it.


So basically what you are saying is that we have to stop using certain words of our own language because those words take on the negative associations of the inherently undesirable traits that are found in those things that the words are used to designate?

This only leads to a continual limiting of our own language since whatever words we use to designate things or individuals who possess inherently undesirable qualities will always become associated with the negative traits of those who they are used to designate.

Sorry, but shit will always be shit, no matter what you call it (manure, feces, turds, poop, caca, its all the same thing).

Orwellian New Speak much? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak
Last edited by Master Baphomet on Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Master Baphomet » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:33 pm

Nahemah wrote:To digress, momentarily:

I was merely pointing out the irony in using Voltaire in this discussion, that is all.


I fail to see the irony, sorry.
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Master Baphomet » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:37 pm

EternalReturn wrote:Political stance is quality of man/argument? Really?


Liberals react emotionally. Liberalism is reactionary by its very nature, and as such is irrational.

No point in arguing with irrational people unless you do so to show them and everyone else just how irrational they are.
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Nahemah » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:46 pm

Enough, in fact more than enough.

The topic is getting locked. If any members wish it to continue or be reopened they must pm me about it and I may consider reopening, but not unless there is something reasonable,coherent and constructive to be added.

This is nothing short of an overtly racist rant without any merit or foundation in either evidenced facts or logical reasoning.

Despite several requests for evidence and facts in support of the argumentto be produced, the OP has continued on in the same vein.

This notice is public for the sake of clarity and as both a benefice and warning to those reading here.

This is in keeping with our site posting policy which can and should be accessed by all:

http://www.occultforum.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3&Itemid=5
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Nahemah » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:31 pm

This thread is now reopened.

Please be aware that any further racism posted here will not be accepted or tolerated.

All and any considered, coherent and reasonable commentary, is however, most welcome. [thumbup]
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Horny Goat » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:57 pm

This is a very interesting theory that I have never read before, and I believe myself to be very well read. I'm not aware of anyone putting this forward before.

Here, in Britain, at the early part of the 21st century racism is very much alive and (un)well. Presumably it is much the same throughout the whole of Europe - a 'white man's land'. If it's this bad nowadays it must have been even worse centuries ago. The idea that the black should dare to allowed sexual relations with a white woman must have been seen by many as a terrible affront.

One of those resonding has mistakenly taken umbrage at this and consideresit racist, but we do live in a racist society, pretending otherwise us nonsense.

The idea that these 'witches' were merely white women who dared to gave intercourse with black men is a concept well worth coonsidering for those historians of these matters.
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Nahemah » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:40 pm

One of those resonding has mistakenly taken umbrage at this and consideres it racist, but we do live in a racist society, pretending otherwise us nonsense.

The idea that these 'witches' were merely white women who dared to gave intercourse with black men is a concept well worth coonsidering for those historians of these matters.


As both a student historian and sociologist I do have more than a little experience in this subject area and my formal studies stand alongside my lifelong fascination for and long term study of, the Witch craze in Europe.

Now I've stated this I do hope it is a little clearer to you why I refuted this 'theory' so resoundingly and did so before I give hard factual evidences that will back my refutation.

A little side note here is pertinent too: We do not allow racist ideology to go unchallenged here and we always ban those who promote it.
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B. Your contributions should be within the scope of the discussion at hand, and and of an occult nature in general. Off-topic discussions should be kept to the off-topic areas, and we reserve the right to move or remove anything which is deemed inappropriate.

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D. You may not post anything which has been emailed to you without the express permission of the sender. You may still forward email to the forum administration, should you feel that this is appropriate.


I advise treading carefully with this subject and please do not fall into the same straw man trap the OP created for himself.

Now, I did not 'overreact' here and I will infract any one who wants to continue with personal commentaries or unfounded accusations, whether they are about me or about any other contributor here.

I'm also not going to dance around that, this is the only warning that is going to be given, so please pay attention and consider your words carefully before posting here.

And, I will be only too happy to explain further why this is an empty theory and about the overt racism that underpins it, but I will do so once I've finished collating the documents necessary to do so and not before.

I was unaware you were living here in the UK and I also think your statement regarding our 'racist society' is a contentious one.

I do suppose local experiences would perhaps colour that view more than a little,though.

So where in the UK are you, loosely speaking of course..?
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Horny Goat » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:21 pm

I quote you, Nemehah:

A little side note here is pertinent too: We do not allow racist ideology to go unchallenged here and we always ban those who promote it.

Quite rightly so. Racism has no place here. It is supposed to be a forum on occultism not society. It would be like having lengthy discussions on party politics or economics. They belong elsewhere.

With regards to your comment on my saying that our UK society is racist is contentious. ALL societies are racist. Nowhere on earth does everyone like everyone else regardless of skin colour, ethnicity and religion. The human race is essentially racist. It divides itself into tribes. them and us. I do not claim this is right as it is one of our biggest failings as a species. But it is a fact of life.

It does not matter where in the UK I live as I would never dream of being nasty to folk just for their skin colour/ethnicity.

If you believe that the idea of a black man having sexual relations with a white woman is not an issue in this day and age; it was only a few years ago that in the USA, under George W. Bush's presidency, that porn showing intercourse between blacks and whites was deemed so wrong that law enforcement agencies were to prevent its distribution and to seize it and prosecute those distributing it. Black & white sex was considered on a par with child porn, bestiality, rape porn and violence!? If that's the white man's reaction to interracial sex now, how much worse must it have been centuries ago in a less civilised era?

I shall drop out of this discussion now for fear of being labelled racist. But the original poster has raised an interesting alternative view on the which trials, which is that racism was part of their motivation. It is naive to think that white people's anti-black bias was never a part of their legal proceedings when such bias is even now commonplace in the law. All studies of law prove it.
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Nahemah » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:33 pm

Please don't drop out of the discussion.

I only asked where you are as it is important in regard to your own experiences and your own experiences are of course valid, especially in this conversation.

Where I live, in a social housing area that is working class, in Glasgow, we do have the odd racist, but they are not the majority, far from it in fact and we've seen a lot of very positive changes in recent times.

I understand this may be different for you and I'm not challenging that.

The us and them dichotomy where I live is much more about social class and wealth than it is about racism, but the mainstream media does try to keep it going on and they keep publishing articles designed to divide and rule.

We do have the ugliness of sectarianism up here, though, with a very vocal minority who are also racist and mysoginistic and homophobic to boot. So there is that. But, at least most people here are disgusted by this behaviour and wish to see them gone, despite our local government mirroring Westminster and doing their best to keep people divided along religious lines, so there is a growing and strong impetus for further change in that regard despite their propaganda and lies.

I do think we can have a good discussion here and it's fine for us to digress a bit before returning to the historical context of the topic.

I'd like to know more abut your experiences and thoughts and I'd like to hear from others on this too, if that's ok?
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Horny Goat » Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:20 am

I believe that a part of my second post has disappeared. I've just read it and noticed that something I'm sure I put in has been removed?! This is not a topic I need to continue with.

One thing I will add though, historians do NOT like new theories that challenge their facts. History, and archeology, as sciences are full of bitter, reputation destroying fights between established experts and young upstarts with new discoveries and ideas that contradict established truths. It's an ugly business that gives men of science a bad reputation as narrow minded.
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Nahemah » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:23 am

I believe that a part of my second post has disappeared. I've just read it and noticed that something I'm sure I put in has been removed?! This is not a topic I need to continue with.


None of your post content has been removed, by any staff member.

Every forum action here is logged and checkable, whether it's been performed by a member or by staff.

I'm immediately passing this over to Vashta as I'm too close to this accusation for comfort, given that I've also been a participant in this discussion.

I went straight to the admin panel on seeing this and I can state categorically that no actions on your posts have been taken and especially not ones in this topic.

I'm going to check the user and moderator logs now too and message Vashta on this matter also.

I strongly suggest that any member who suspects anything like this has happened on the forum, should immediately message Vashta about it right away.

I also feel it bears saying that I am a confident enough debator not to have to hide behind shady or dishonest tactics and I take my staff role here very seriously, having invested most of the last five years of my free time into helping build and run this place. I would not jeopardise any of that to score a cheap point nor to win an argument through such means.
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