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Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Vashta » Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:01 am

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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Nahemah » Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:17 pm

I think a very important distinction should be made, regarding what it actually meant to be ' a white woman' in Europe, during the Witch craze period:

What was the status of women, generally speaking, in regard to men in Europe?

Was Social status and class also relevant to women's position in European Society in this period?

What would the population statistics [for instance ] say too, for the places where 'witchcraft' and ' the black man/ goat/ Auld Nick' interactions are claimed to have occurred, in regard to how closely people of different 'races' and social classes could have physically interacted?

Or indeed how they were most likely to have interacted in society, in what ways and at what times, and what, we might also consider, were the social.political and religious demographics like generally, in these places, at the time of the craze ?

Who were regarded as 'white' at that time, in these areas ?

How might concepts of 'race' and 'race distinction' have change over time too, especially from then to now?

All these are critical thinking points that should be considered and explored in relation to this topic's theory, perhaps before we consider further the actual subject content of the theory as posted here.

I've only outlined a few thinking points, but they are significant ones to consider here.

http://ieg-ego.eu/en/threads/europe-and-the-world/racism

"...The early modern world contained social orders that were organised along racial criteria; however, the theoretical justifications for discrimination against people with a different skin colour did not exist. The transatlantic slave trade managed to do without a rationale. Explicit theories of race clearly belong to the modern era..."

"...By the end of the 18th century, unabashedly racist statements remained the exception. This can be seen in the hate-filled pamphlet by the Göttingen philosopher Christoph Meiners (1747–1810) on the nature of the African "Negro" published in 1790. Meiners put forward an assortment of prejudice, primitive hierarchical views of the world, justifications for slavery and – in another section – anti-Semitic tirades. He was, on the one hand, undoubtedly an early theorist of race who anticipated the racist argumentation of the late 19th century. On the other hand, at the end of the 18th century, he was discredited as a prolific but superficial writer; his works barely achieved an audience and met with vehement criticism and accusations of unscientific bigotry from scholars.23..."
▲22

"...However, at the turn of the 18th and 19th century, the European perception of other peoples changed. In the past, the Chinese and other inhabitants of Far-Eastern Asia had been generally defined as "white"; now, they were increasingly perceived as "yellow".24 In addition, an assumption of superiority over other peoples and cultures grew in Europe from the beginning of the 19th century as a result of the expansion of colonialism. In connection with the appearance of nationalism, myths which later could be interpreted in exclusively racial terms appeared in numerous European states. Examples include the legends of the Franks and the writings (whose impact at the time is, however, often exaggerated) of "Count" Arthur de Gobineau (1816–1882) , which from a reactionary perspective postulated differences in social standing as immutable racial characteristics..."

Please click on the article link to find full contexts of and criteria for these statement excerpts and also for further information and linked sources for the materals referenced and discussed in the article itself.
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Nahemah » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:34 pm

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Q0Y_E1qVRcMJ:web.clark.edu/afisher/HIST253/lecture_text/WitchcraftCrazeEurope.doc+&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

The full pdf version has the numbered sources links attached, but I had to use the cached version atm.


...By the late 15th century evidence was being found in certain areas of the German states that the devil was being worshipped by witches. To investigate whether the presence of malevolent witches empowered by the devil was true, the Pope assigned two Dominican friars to go to Germany and look for the presence of witches. Malleus Maleficarum or Hammer of the Witches, published in 1486 was the result. The monks stated why witches were women: "it is self-evident that witches are female...where there are many women there are many witches...men, like Jesus are protected from lures of the devil, but women because they are feebler both in mind and body are easy prey just like their predecessor Eve...furthermore women are more carnal then men...they are sexually insatiable."
It then itemized all the crimes witches committed, and how to torture, convict and execute them. As many scholars have attested, this was the single most influential work on the witch craze of the early modern period that led to so many accusations and executions of women.[1] Numerous vernacular translations and thirty editions appeared rapidly, pointing out the popularity of this propaganda.

By the sixteenth century Europeans were convinced the continent was literally swarming with witches. Even the educated people including philosophers and scientists believed in witches. The first witch in a village was always the easiest to name. She was a poor outcast woman who was not liked. She would be formally accused, then tortured and convicted. This would then lead to more accusations. Witch finders were hired to ferret out the witches. One method they employed was to stick pins into the accused woman's flesh. It was thought that she would not feel anything if the devil had touched her there. Based on artifactual evidence, these pins were collapsible models, and when these women were poked, no point was there.

Some men took up this job as it was lucrative because they were paid on the number of accusations and successful prosecutions. No proper court procedures were conducted for women accused of being witches. To convict, either two witnesses or a witness linked with a confession were enough evidence for a guilty verdict. Confessions came from the torture that was inflicted on these women (although around a fourth of the victims were men.) It was believed that torture would free the witch from the devil's power. Mankind has always been extremely creative when it comes to devising endless varieties of torture methods, and this timeframe was no different. They used the strapado, rack, sharp iron fork to mangle breasts, red hot pincers to tear flesh and breasts off, red hot anal irons, turcas to tear out fingernails, gouging out of eyes with irons, and horsewhipping.[2]

Once deemed guilty then horrific ways of execution were employed to these "witches": burned at the stake or in a tar barrel, boiled in oil, killed in ovens specially built for this purpose, and hung. By the end of the sixteenth century in southwestern Germany accusations and executions were out of control. As courts secured more confessions, people were satisfied that the witch persecutions were doing the job of getting rid of witches. There are court records of confessions that seem to indicate Europe was alive with witches. Yet historians have uncovered no evidence that satanic rituals involving witches took place. What has been determined is that the majority of people accused and convicted were women alone, over fifty and from the lower social economic class...
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Horny Goat » Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:00 am

My apologies to Nemehah for any offence caused. I must have been confused as to what I put in my own post. I'm sorry. Please continue your good work here as this is I think the best such forum on the Internet. I do not post elsewhere. It is certainly the best laid out and easiest to follow so well done to all involved.

Still, in academia - and history in particular, when you have studied hard and long and consider yourself very knowledgable on a subject then someone comes along with new theories that challenge your knowledge, it is hard to allow such a thing. Many an expert has reacted badly to such a threat to their expertise.
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Ramscha » Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:02 am

Horny Goat wrote:My apologies to Nemehah for any offence caused. I must have been confused as to what I put in my own post. I'm sorry. Please continue your good work here as this is I think the best such forum on the Internet. I do not post elsewhere. It is certainly the best laid out and easiest to follow so well done to all involved.

Still, in academia - and history in particular, when you have studied hard and long and consider yourself very knowledgable on a subject then someone comes along with new theories that challenge your knowledge, it is hard to allow such a thing. Many an expert has reacted badly to such a threat to their expertise.


Which does not mean that a new theory has to be given the lead just because it is new [wink] Often it turns out to be garbage or misinterpretation. Or it turns things upside down. Or it has no impact at all. Or is overlooked.

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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Nahemah » Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:09 pm

What wasn't made public at the time of the thread is that the OP is also a known and noted racist, with a public presence and is also the author of several racist and hate riddled attempts to revise history. He is known and noted around the online community and not well recieved generally.

There is more that could be said in refutation of his argument, but the thread got pulled in another direction.

I'm putting this back in the roasting pit, so our policies can be seen to be very clear. We do not do racism or racist revisionism, though we will allow the ideas to be put forward as we don't do unreasonable or in advance censorship either.


You may speak, but you are not free from the consequences of that speech, as the forum terms and rules are based around current UK discrimination laws.
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Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.


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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Nahemah » Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:23 pm

There are so many holes in the OP's argument that were not addressed properly, due to the thread going off at a tangent.

What it meant to be white in the 1600s. A measure of social class as well as skin colour. How were laws and rights for poor folk different from the rich/ aristrcratic and especially in regard to women?

Who were the victims in the witch trials?

When did slavery become popular/ common in Europe/in individual countries/ the UK?

Symbolism and representation in European art of thee period/s in question, is another factor, but not the most immediately significant, in a sea of significant and important points that seek to blame and create a backstory for racial prejudice, in an attempt to validate hate through pseudo-historical means.

Some of the sources above were given to begin addressing these problems in the author's line of thinking, but if anyone wants to explore this some more, ask about it and we can carefully continue. I'd rather people see the evidence, go through it and take a critical eye to ALL views presented here than have you accept my refutation without due consideration.

The author's time frames are problematic. But this is only one of the major flaws in his argument.
"He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel."

Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.


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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby the_spiral » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:40 pm

That poster is Steven L. Akins, a rather unstable individual who trolls white supremacist forums, runs fraudulent Scottish ancestry scams and has a well-documented fetish for underage girls and posting child pornography. In addition to his virulent racism, bizarre obsession with interracial sex and general nuttiness he's also quite the vile misogynist (https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t909538-9/). People here arguing he has a "solid theory" (even though theories are based on EVIDENCE and since he failed to produce any evidentiary historical records, this remains a poorly researched SPECULATION - and yes, I'm a historian by trade) should really check their gullibility and critical thinking skills. You're fighting the good fight here N but the dude is a mess and better off gone. Even the white supremacist forums had the sense to ban this shit-stirring troll: https://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=139365
http://www.thephora.net/forum/archive/i ... 88898.html
Sorry to link to these cesspools but people should really do some basic research before co-signing a pile of ahistorical speculative crap with some pretty pictures attached.
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby Nahemah » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:19 pm

Thanks The_spiral and good call, I wasn't going to name him, though. Akins is beyond a joke, way beyond, fools like him can be dangerous though, when allowed to proliferate and go unchallenged, right enough.

I was concerned about this topic, mostly due to the rather alarming fact that some members read this at the time and actually thought he'd made a decent case. That was why I allowed the discussion to continue, at least for a while. The OP was duly banned, once he had shown his own inability to relate to known facts or to be able to accept valid criticisms of his hypotheses without logical fallacies and personal attacks, but then the topic took off in another direction.
In the end I let it go as we got busy elsewhere, so I pitted this and moved on, but the statement by horny goat, in particular, regarding the 'discovery' of 'new' or non mainstream history and how that is claimed to 'upset' the status quo, need to be dealt with still and I recently rediscovered this topic on one of my searches here.
There was nothing in this 'new history' that held any validity whatsoever and those with a knowledge of history can see this right away, but this piece is not targeted to us, as it uses speculation to build on supposition and can lead the naive eye, the ignorant, or the otherwise bemused soul, quite well towards justification for hatred and fear.

The links can stay, they are lovely places to go aren't they, lol, though we wouldn't usually allow them to be posted here at OF.org in other circumstances or folders, as they serve to show the reality of who this OP actually is, what he stands for and why we [the staffers] were misinterpreted as 'dealing harshly' with this muppet, for a muppet he truly is indeed.

Akins had also tried to establish himself as a Celtic historian/ academic, to justify his polemic revisionism and he published a book on 'druidry' which was resoundingly eviscerated upon publication and rightly so, there are no words for him, but Dunning- Kruger certainly might apply well, lol, among other saltier terms, perhaps. This man seems to remain stubbornly unaware of his own reflection, regardless.
"He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel."

Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.


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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby the_spiral » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:01 pm

Haha yes, I don't normally name and shame either, but since he proudly signs his name to his trolling nonsense all over the internet and has a link in his profile here to his website with his full name across the top of his terrible poems about shagging little girls...well, I figured he wouldn't mind the extra publicity. And of course take the links down if they violate TOS, but I do think they provide a more "complete" picture of this individual and his motivations. This was one of the first posts I came across when I started lurking OF and I almost didn't join because of this fool and the people lauding him in the comments. Thankfully I kept reading and realized it wasn't representative of the general level of discourse here. I wonder how much interracial and/or kiddie porn one might find on this brilliant historian's hard drive? And if you're here defending the academic authority of someone who can't provide a shred of concrete historical evidence for any of his claims, and who even the most virulent of Neo-Nazis find too mendacious and slimy for their presence...well, what does that say about you? It never ceases to concern me when practicing occultists display this level of gullibility, and in fact I think this entire thread is a wonderful demonstration of the Dunning-Kruger effect as well as other social science theories that probably haven't even been discovered yet [yay]
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Re: Was interracial sex the real cause of the "Witch" hunts?

Postby LoneWolf » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:58 pm

I see pretty words behind of which emptiness abideth.

Of course my neanderthal pack could kill me because the hair in my bottocks caused rain. What does it matter?

Thanks for trying though

My regards

EDIT: Oops 2014
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