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How far does the rabbit hole go?

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Re: How far does the rabbit hole go?

Postby blindwake » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:48 pm

Spida, yes, but they might also have gotten 11 from the fact that there are 10 numerals (0-9) and 10 + 1 = 11. Or that the flying spaghetti monster owns eleven cats (six of which are black, one of which is yellow, and the others some other color). Your correlation is valid, but my point is that it cannot show causation.

I studied kabbalah for a short while until I realized that all the symbols were arbitrary at best, and that it was essentially circle jerk to use them. Don't get me wrong, the symbols as a language, are highly effective, and a key aspect of magick is to be able to convey meaning with symbols. However, a language is still arbitrary. You can't use it for logical reasoning unless it is well defined.

I'm actually extremely curious as to why rituals like the Kabbalistic Cross and LBRP work. I can't deny that they cause interesting effects, but I can get similar results with other non-kabbalistic symbols too.
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Re: How far does the rabbit hole go?

Postby Cerber » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:10 am

blindwake wrote:I know, but that's still abstract.

It's meant to be. There cubes and there are hypercubes, concepts and "hyper-concepts", or tools and "hyper-tools". For the most part you can make do with your "3d" somewhat easily defined static tools (ideas, concepts) like most people do, if you stick to your patch of land. But when intentionally or unintentionally interdenominational barriers crossed you encounter "stuff" that don't play by the "comfortable" rules, "stuff" that suddenly have infinite "perceivable" sides and shapes, stuff that you can't actually perceive in it's entirety, yet you can observe some part, a "slice" of it at many different "angles", and if you look at it enough times flipping it around, eventually your mind can grasp the concept of it, develop a "feel" for it, and you gain partial spacial "understanding" of this or that abstract concept. Now what it is, what part or slice of it you use for this or that context entirely depends on you and that context, you don't necessarily have to or even should use the same projection, part, slice of it you used yesterday. you just turn, push and flip it around, that "hypercube" until you get the "shape" that fits your "context". So "warping" back to the beginning, any "non-abstract" definition of a soul is impractical, it doesn't have much uses in your every day "3d" life, you don't ride soul to work, you don't use it as a currency when buying milk, and all "non-abstract" definitions of it is impractical on the greater scale. It does not really exist as something specific with clear boundaries, it's not everything either, but it surely has plenty of infinity about it.
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Re: How far does the rabbit hole go?

Postby house6and12 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:25 am

argumentation today i agree is mostly combat but its real use was to reinforce the body
to reinforce
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Re: How far does the rabbit hole go?

Postby blindwake » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:36 am

Cerber,

[smile] Abstract concepts are still valid as definitions. I'm actually quite relaxed about what I might accept as a valid definition. For example, even though I can't personally imagine having a 360 degree field of view, I know it can exist because vision is just about color data, and the idea that color data has to form a grid like structure is unfounded.

I think I understand the analogy. I'd argue though, that if such an abstract object has many components, slices, each of which can be used for different things, the abstract object isn't really a single object in itself; it can probably be reduced into groups of smaller objects. That's part of what I'm getting at here with definitions.

If you told someone who didn't understand modern technology that you drove a car to work today, you could show them a picture of a car, etc. You could also tell them that a car consists of an engine, frame, tires, etc. However, until you explain the car to them in simplest terms, they'd never really understand what a car is, and how it works. For example, there's a big difference between understanding a car's components and what they do, and being able to explain the atomic structures of the materials which comprise those components. The difference is similar to how a script kiddie isn't a real hacker.

I agree, there's no day to day use for a soul, but it could have applications outside of day to day life. For example, if I want to make one, think about how I could theoretically raise a zombie, etc.

You've actually made a very good point. A soul has no applications in day to day life. But then why do we even have a word for a soul? If it isn't practical and doesn't have any real uses, it's a vacuous term. Redundancy says it shouldn't exist then. The very fact that we can't explain what it is points to it not having a reason to exist as a concept.

House6and12,

???
If all brains are made roughly the same, then why do I perceive through my own? What special characteristic places me in this skull?
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Re: How far does the rabbit hole go?

Postby Kath » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:29 pm

I think the comment about the dots might have been for me, since i abuse the hell out of dots... but for the life of me, i can't recall what i might have posted.

anyway, when it comes to drawing connections like there's 10 spheres in the kab, and 10 dimensions in m-theory... i mean... that's so wildly arbitrary. Might as well say it's because you have 10 fingers, or, as has been suggested, the spaghetti monster's cat count.

to answer the question though, i do like the deep conversations. I don't feel i've learned enough to lose interest in talking about it, and i don't imagine any conversation is totally unable to get pregnant with epiphany :P

to address the idea of superiority in mentality: I think there is a kind of continuum, on one end is the totally confident ignorant fool, the person who does not know that they know nothing, but gets by on bravado. On the other end of the continuum is the very wise person who is clever enough to know that even if they second guess themselves constantly, they could very easily still be wildly wrong.

Personally I think that neither of those 2 states is ideal for the purpose of making progress in a goal oriented fashion. There's a sort of synthesis of egotistical 'can do/will do', willfully ignorant of the concept of failure, and not overly eager to uptake dogma and fantasy presented as fact... mixed with a humility where all that you think you know is open for regular deconstructing, and an awareness of the relative warping of any perception of reality caused by a thousand things, even being in this species.

Cocky, but not too cocky to learn, just cocky enough to apply what's learned effectively, and cocky enough to know that anything that needs to be learned, will be learned.

Obviously, the unstoppable conquering heroine who slays all dragons of unknowing... is kind of a fantasy, but it's the sort of fantasy which is surprisingly self fulfilling.

and yeah, it had to have been me abusing the dots, poor things...
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Re: How far does the rabbit hole go?

Postby Spida » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:22 pm

Kath wrote:anyway, when it comes to drawing connections like there's 10 spheres in the kab, and 10 dimensions in m-theory... i mean... that's so wildly arbitrary. Might as well say it's because you have 10 fingers, or, as has been suggested, the spaghetti monster's cat count.


I apologize for saying so, but the above comment is simply an ignorant assessment. It's no fault of the Poster as most do not have knowledge of these Paradigms sufficient enough to see beyond the Number Ten(which is actually 11) which is understandable :-)

These two Paradigms are not "Wildly Arbitrary" in comparison as they are representative of Cosmic Origins, Anabolism, and resulting Manifestations. Granted there are a lot of gray areas, but I would prefer to call it a work in progress in lieu of "Wildly Arbitrary"

And to further deviate from the "Wildly Arbitrary" I would merely indicate a correlation between The Singularity of The Big Bang with that of Kether, the Primordial Point. I go out on a Limb here and call these Zero Dimensional Points that exist in the absence of Four Dimensional Spacetime.

So there are correlations(and as stated also gray areas) that go beyond random; arbitrary things that also happen to contain sets of 10(we know now its 11), e.g. Fingers and Toes, et cetera.

No comment on the Spaghetti Monster's Cat Count. I had him figured for a Dog Monster :-)
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Re: How far does the rabbit hole go?

Postby Cerber » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:53 pm

Spida wrote:
I apologize for saying so, but the above comment is simply an ignorant assessment. It's no fault of the Poster as most do not have knowledge of these Paradigms sufficient enough to see beyond the Number Ten(which is actually 11) which is understandable :-)

So how many you've managed to count so far? And are you sure you were counting the strings of beads and not the beads on a single string? How sure? Mathematically or philosophically sure?
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Re: How far does the rabbit hole go?

Postby Spida » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:29 am

Cerber wrote:So how many you've managed to count so far? And are you sure you were counting the strings of beads and not the beads on a single string? How sure? Mathematically or philosophically sure?


And yet another post gets eaten. I guess it can also happen when I am stone cold sober. Let me try again.

It depends on which exotic theory you are referencing. In one Theory there are 9 Dimensions plus Time, and in another there are 10 Plus Time. I am only certain what the Theorists say, and not about what they say.

In a Multi-Universal Theory how ever many Dimensions exist within a single universe would exist in every Universe. The number of Universes would be infinite, and extend indefinitely into the Bulk of the Multiverse. So pertaining to the metaphor, the number of beads would be 10 or 11, but the number of beaded strings would be infinite.

More important to the Occultist would be that they are stating the existence of these micro dimensions, or inner worlds. That have fewer or Zero Exterior Spatial Dimensions. The entire existence of these Micro Dimensions would be within. An inner progression similar to the Spiral, or how you can keep zooming in indefinitely on a Fractal Pattern. So you have Micro infinity in lieu of the more commonly thought of Macro Infinity.

These Micro Dimensions are possibly Portals to Inner Realities, perhaps at times we may visit these and not even be aware that we are doing so.

It could be merely coincidence that there are Six Sephiroth of Yetzirah, Six points of the Hexagram, and these Six Micro Dimensions, but its worth mentioning anyway.

The post that got eaten was better I think. Only because I enjoyed writing it, and to have to retype it amounts to nothing more than a pain in the ass :-) But lets not give up because of it shall we. I do remember in the past timing out and having to use the back arrow to recover, which in some cases is no longer an option, oh well.
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Re: How far does the rabbit hole go?

Postby Cerber » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:59 am

Nvm, I must have misread your post. For a moment it seemed as if you were mocking somebody's ignorance as if you would know better, but it seems you meant something else. My bad [zomg]

p.s. I think you got it upside down. Infinite number universes does not imply infinite number of dimentions . You began counting strings, and half way to went on to counting beads. And to me that seems a bit wrong both mathematically and philosophically. A universe is a bead on a string, not string of beads.
A string can be infinite, only in theory, but the number of dimensions is kept as low as necessary for the healthy existence of the multi-verse, otherwise we might get all tangled up rather quickly. At least it is so according to my believes
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Re: How far does the rabbit hole go?

Postby Shawn Blackwolf » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:13 pm

Okay , Spida...

Here is another possibility...

In our Tree , there are 11 dimensions...

Yet , the center seven , ( which if you remove some outer lines I drew is
the shape of Crowley's Unicursal Hexagram we showed him ) , have a value
of 692 , which equals Time Travel ;

Now the very center pair is pronounced Payuurt + Eel , thus Payuurt Eel / Portal ;

The entire 11 pairs of symbols has a standard low value , as in the Obri / Hebrew
Aleph - Beth , of 1495 ;

So , I just checked for the fun of it...and look what came out :

Eleven = 156
Dimensions = 356
Plus = 176
Time = 624
System = 183
= 1495

Now , to check it by another formula :

Manifestation = 19
Eleven = 156
Dimensions = 356
And = 44
Time = 624
Dimension = 296
= 1495

Just thought I would throw *that* into the stone soup... [wink]
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Re: How far does the rabbit hole go?

Postby Spida » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:59 pm

@Cerber


You are right. There are Models that I haven't adapted to with regard to these String Theories. Sounds like you are referencing the one that is similar to Discs(Universes) that are stacked upon one another.

Anyway. I suppose what I did was to incorporate Multiverse Theory with the Big Bang Theory. So initially you have the inflation of a single Universe which is spherical. This includes our 4D Spacetime Plus the 6 Micro Dimensions, and the way I have looked at the Spatially Extended Dimension is like a Brane, or Membrane ergo M theory that would be the 11th Dimension that encapsulates an entire Universe, granted that laws may not be replicated exactly from universe to universe.

So what I end up with is a Macrocosmic reflection maybe similar to how some Quantum Particles Vibrate and Propagate. Something analogous to a soap bubble scenario, bouncing around in the infinite void :-)

@Shawn
Thank you SIr. I will have to get back to that one, got a time issue :-)
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Re: How far does the rabbit hole go?

Postby Cerber » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:55 am

Spida wrote:Anyway. I suppose what I did was to incorporate Multiverse Theory with the Big Bang Theory. So initially you have the inflation of a single Universe which is spherical. This includes our 4D Spacetime Plus the 6 Micro Dimensions, and the way I have looked at the Spatially Extended Dimension is like a Brane, or Membrane ergo M theory that would be the 11th Dimension that encapsulates an entire Universe, granted that laws may not be replicated exactly from universe to universe.

But we don't know for sure if it's spherical. An even if it looks somewhat spherical in 3D, that doesn't automatically mean it is spherical in 4D, 5D or any other nD, does it?
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Re: How far does the rabbit hole go?

Postby Shawn Blackwolf » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:29 pm

Cerber wrote:
Spida wrote:Anyway. I suppose what I did was to incorporate Multiverse Theory with the Big Bang Theory. So initially you have the inflation of a single Universe which is spherical. This includes our 4D Spacetime Plus the 6 Micro Dimensions, and the way I have looked at the Spatially Extended Dimension is like a Brane, or Membrane ergo M theory that would be the 11th Dimension that encapsulates an entire Universe, granted that laws may not be replicated exactly from universe to universe.

But we don't know for sure if it's spherical. An even if it looks somewhat spherical in 3D, that doesn't automatically mean it is spherical in 4D, 5D or any other nD, does it?


Just out of curiosity , I typed into google search "sperical in Nd" :

https://www.google.com/search?q=Spheric ... 66&bih=646
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