Original post: lQairah
It is in Quintscher's book 'Kabbalistik' where you can find the correct positive and negative Saturnian entities which Bardon has mis-printed. This is available on my site (it is only in German for now):
http://lqairah-mysteries.tripod.com
The book also contains the negative Mercury sphere genii that are not in PME and more detailed instructions on making their seals and invoking them.
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Original post: lQairah
repeat post.
repeat post.
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Original post: Frater C.
http://english.grimoar.cz/
An excellent website. It's great to see that some of the works of Quintscher and Musallam are getting translated. Another version of Kabbalistik, called "Die Adonistische Kabbalah", can be found at the following site:It is in Quintscher's book 'Kabbalistik' where you can find the correct positive and negative Saturnian entities which Bardon has mis-printed. This is available on my site (it is only in German for now):
http://lqairah-mysteries.tripod.com
The book also contains the negative Mercury sphere genii that are not in PME and more detailed instructions on making their seals and invoking them.
http://english.grimoar.cz/
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Original post: Athena
[QUOTE=Frater C.;359490]I'm not familiar with all the odds and ends of German occultism because of the language-barrier, but as I understand it Bardon based at least part of his works on Rah Omir Quintscher. It is from Quintscher that Bardon took his cipher, for example, that is used in PME. Also, I believe, the spirits that Bardon lists as those of the Jupiter sphere are in fact the spirits of the sphere of Saturn as they appear in some book of Quintscher. This is evident when you look at the sigils of Bardon's jovial spirits where the planet of Saturn with its rings freuquently appear. This information taken together with what is brought up on Paul Allen's site, etc., makes me a little sceptic to the whole grimoire part and lists of spirits of PME.
Peace profound,
Frater C.[/QUOTE]
Apparently he "borrowed" a lot of material from Quintscher. I'd love to see English versions of the Quintscher work, but I didn't realize there were any until seeing the links above :>
Athena
[QUOTE=Frater C.;359490]I'm not familiar with all the odds and ends of German occultism because of the language-barrier, but as I understand it Bardon based at least part of his works on Rah Omir Quintscher. It is from Quintscher that Bardon took his cipher, for example, that is used in PME. Also, I believe, the spirits that Bardon lists as those of the Jupiter sphere are in fact the spirits of the sphere of Saturn as they appear in some book of Quintscher. This is evident when you look at the sigils of Bardon's jovial spirits where the planet of Saturn with its rings freuquently appear. This information taken together with what is brought up on Paul Allen's site, etc., makes me a little sceptic to the whole grimoire part and lists of spirits of PME.
Peace profound,
Frater C.[/QUOTE]
Apparently he "borrowed" a lot of material from Quintscher. I'd love to see English versions of the Quintscher work, but I didn't realize there were any until seeing the links above :>
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Original post: Kamenwati
On page #167, "Fig. 6", of Practice of Magical Evocation...Is "Lilitha" the same as Lilith the female demon of the Qliphoth?
Please excuse me if that sounds foolish. But as you can see, the names are pretty similar, and I'm not to the point where I am evoking spirits so that I can see for myself.
Thanx.
On page #167, "Fig. 6", of Practice of Magical Evocation...Is "Lilitha" the same as Lilith the female demon of the Qliphoth?
Please excuse me if that sounds foolish. But as you can see, the names are pretty similar, and I'm not to the point where I am evoking spirits so that I can see for myself.
Thanx.
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Original post: Anika Divinorum
Is there an English version of the Kabbalistik too? That would be awesome.
Is there an English version of the Kabbalistik too? That would be awesome.
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Original post: Yog-Sothoth
Hmmm, i've worked with every single spirit of PME, lol, just kiddding
Good topic, certainly creates questions for me especially the blinds in which work, and the mysteries they hide , who knows? i'm nowhere near to step 8 in IIH so there is no chance for me in evocation yet. As for Abramelin, heard of it but never read it. so it has been informative for me also the link MagiAwen posted was great.
Hmmm, i've worked with every single spirit of PME, lol, just kiddding
Good topic, certainly creates questions for me especially the blinds in which work, and the mysteries they hide , who knows? i'm nowhere near to step 8 in IIH so there is no chance for me in evocation yet. As for Abramelin, heard of it but never read it. so it has been informative for me also the link MagiAwen posted was great.
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Original post: destructive_metaphysician
this is a very different discussion of pme than i have ever read...i have been told that the entire grimoire part of pme was written to be useless, plain and simple. it was a giant distraction, and the notion that there is a cipher is also incorrect. i believe rawn clark draws this out clearly...i will repost a link after i find it....but the idea is that bardon makes damn plain that one is not supposed to fuck with pme until one has completed step 8 of iih, and by that time, one no longer needs books and should do all of the exploration work on one's own. this makes sense in the context of how he wrote key to the true kabbalah, in such a way as to be meaningful only to someone who is already an adept at his system.
so i don't think that the spirits in his grimoire are real at all...they might be subjective beings, but not the objective planetary entities. as i have read, i am as well not near section 8.
i'll post the link i'm thinking of when i can find it, should be soon...
this is a very different discussion of pme than i have ever read...i have been told that the entire grimoire part of pme was written to be useless, plain and simple. it was a giant distraction, and the notion that there is a cipher is also incorrect. i believe rawn clark draws this out clearly...i will repost a link after i find it....but the idea is that bardon makes damn plain that one is not supposed to fuck with pme until one has completed step 8 of iih, and by that time, one no longer needs books and should do all of the exploration work on one's own. this makes sense in the context of how he wrote key to the true kabbalah, in such a way as to be meaningful only to someone who is already an adept at his system.
so i don't think that the spirits in his grimoire are real at all...they might be subjective beings, but not the objective planetary entities. as i have read, i am as well not near section 8.
i'll post the link i'm thinking of when i can find it, should be soon...
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Original post: destructive_metaphysician
here we have what i was talking about...note that this is rawn's answer to paul allen's arguments...
My Response to Paul Allen's "Bardon's Errors" and "Did Bardon Commit Suicide?" Articles
© 2002
RE: "Bardon's Errors" --
Dear Paul,
I just received a very excited email telling me to rush to your website! ;-) This note came with the warning: "the latest addition should bring some controversy!"
THANK YOU, Paul! I truly enjoyed your excellent article about Bardon's errors, etc. I wanted to read the "bardonsend.html" but that link isn't working (I get the "That page doesn't exist!" note from Geocities).
The great secret about PME is that only the first part -- the theory section -- is worth anything at all. Yet nearly everyone buys it for the grimoire and ignores the theory section.. ;-) They also ignore everything Bardon says about how you should go out and meet the beings of the Elements and Spheres on your own, without relying on things like grimoires. Of course most who pursue PME do so without having yet completed Step 8 of IIH and haven't gained the insight to realize that they've entirely missed the point of PME.
I've often wondered and theorized as to why Bardon included the grimoire at all. Over the years I've come up with three theories:
1) Perhaps he thought that the only way the theory section would see print and remain available was to include such a hot selling item as a grimoire. This would also perhaps lead folks to IIH if they were unaware of it.
2) Perhaps he thought that the only way his theory section would fall into the hands of practicing evocationists was to include a grimoire.
3) Perhaps he meant the grimoire as a test of whether or not one had listened to, and understood, what he said in the theory section. If one had and if one had indeed completed Step 8 of IIH prior to pursuing PME, then it would be obvious that the grimoire was pointless. But if one had not listened to the theory section nor understood it, then the grimoire would be all that one focused upon and what he revealed in the theory section would be "safe".
Personally, I adhere to my third theory the most strongly. I think the Stejnar "controversy" (over nothing of importance, in my opinion) and now your "Bardon's errors" article, both support my pet theory. I think this air of uncertainty over the PME grimoire is a very good thing! Hopefully it will make people stop and think, and force them to ask, "what's really of importance in this book?"
if you want to think about bardon, i suggest reading over rawn clark on abardoncompanion.com for many good thoughts.
here we have what i was talking about...note that this is rawn's answer to paul allen's arguments...
My Response to Paul Allen's "Bardon's Errors" and "Did Bardon Commit Suicide?" Articles
© 2002
RE: "Bardon's Errors" --
Dear Paul,
I just received a very excited email telling me to rush to your website! ;-) This note came with the warning: "the latest addition should bring some controversy!"
THANK YOU, Paul! I truly enjoyed your excellent article about Bardon's errors, etc. I wanted to read the "bardonsend.html" but that link isn't working (I get the "That page doesn't exist!" note from Geocities).
The great secret about PME is that only the first part -- the theory section -- is worth anything at all. Yet nearly everyone buys it for the grimoire and ignores the theory section.. ;-) They also ignore everything Bardon says about how you should go out and meet the beings of the Elements and Spheres on your own, without relying on things like grimoires. Of course most who pursue PME do so without having yet completed Step 8 of IIH and haven't gained the insight to realize that they've entirely missed the point of PME.
I've often wondered and theorized as to why Bardon included the grimoire at all. Over the years I've come up with three theories:
1) Perhaps he thought that the only way the theory section would see print and remain available was to include such a hot selling item as a grimoire. This would also perhaps lead folks to IIH if they were unaware of it.
2) Perhaps he thought that the only way his theory section would fall into the hands of practicing evocationists was to include a grimoire.
3) Perhaps he meant the grimoire as a test of whether or not one had listened to, and understood, what he said in the theory section. If one had and if one had indeed completed Step 8 of IIH prior to pursuing PME, then it would be obvious that the grimoire was pointless. But if one had not listened to the theory section nor understood it, then the grimoire would be all that one focused upon and what he revealed in the theory section would be "safe".
Personally, I adhere to my third theory the most strongly. I think the Stejnar "controversy" (over nothing of importance, in my opinion) and now your "Bardon's errors" article, both support my pet theory. I think this air of uncertainty over the PME grimoire is a very good thing! Hopefully it will make people stop and think, and force them to ask, "what's really of importance in this book?"
if you want to think about bardon, i suggest reading over rawn clark on abardoncompanion.com for many good thoughts.
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Original post: Yog-Sothoth
good post
Rawn's great.
Still so much to discover....
good post
Rawn's great.
Still so much to discover....
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Original post: Anika Divinorum
If none of the spirits are real, why do their sigils look so similar to the ones in the Kabbalistik by Quintscher? Wouldn't he just make up some names and draw some total nonsense for their sigils?
If none of the spirits are real, why do their sigils look so similar to the ones in the Kabbalistik by Quintscher? Wouldn't he just make up some names and draw some total nonsense for their sigils?
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Original post: Asterion
the spirits and seals are as real as it gets, except for some just the office is given , not the name.
thisd is quite frequent in traditional authors , like Agrippa or Arbatel, telling the mage that not the name is important , but the office, because it might change.
The only ones denominated by office are the Sun and the Moon spirits.
The spirits of the Sun are Arabic Stars encoded, and the moon heads are Arabic Mansions encoded.
the spirits and seals are as real as it gets, except for some just the office is given , not the name.
thisd is quite frequent in traditional authors , like Agrippa or Arbatel, telling the mage that not the name is important , but the office, because it might change.
The only ones denominated by office are the Sun and the Moon spirits.
The spirits of the Sun are Arabic Stars encoded, and the moon heads are Arabic Mansions encoded.
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Original post: MagiAwen
Destructive Metaphysician and Rawn are in cahoots to let out all our "secrets" lol.
It does give people something to think about that is for sure. What's more, it's all theory. To me, the only way to know for yourself is to read everything and then do the evocations in PME. Then for sure you'd be able to tell...right? Though personally, having gone through his books and saving evocations from PME to the last, it is quite revealing personally and I think everyone should do it.
destructive_metaphysician wrote:here we have what i was talking about...note that this is rawn's answer to paul allen's arguments...
(snip)
The great secret about PME is that only the first part -- the theory section -- is worth anything at all. Yet nearly everyone buys it for the grimoire and ignores the theory section.. ;-) They also ignore everything Bardon says about how you should go out and meet the beings of the Elements and Spheres on your own, without relying on things like grimoires. Of course most who pursue PME do so without having yet completed Step 8 of IIH and haven't gained the insight to realize that they've entirely missed the point of PME.
(snip)
3) Perhaps he meant the grimoire as a test of whether or not one had listened to, and understood, what he said in the theory section. If one had and if one had indeed completed Step 8 of IIH prior to pursuing PME, then it would be obvious that the grimoire was pointless. But if one had not listened to the theory section nor understood it, then the grimoire would be all that one focused upon and what he revealed in the theory section would be "safe".
Personally, I adhere to my third theory the most strongly. I think the Stejnar "controversy" (over nothing of importance, in my opinion) and now your "Bardon's errors" article, both support my pet theory. I think this air of uncertainty over the PME grimoire is a very good thing! Hopefully it will make people stop and think, and force them to ask, "what's really of importance in this book?"
Destructive Metaphysician and Rawn are in cahoots to let out all our "secrets" lol.
It does give people something to think about that is for sure. What's more, it's all theory. To me, the only way to know for yourself is to read everything and then do the evocations in PME. Then for sure you'd be able to tell...right? Though personally, having gone through his books and saving evocations from PME to the last, it is quite revealing personally and I think everyone should do it.
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Original post: destructive_metaphysician
yeah, i can't wait until i'm to the level where i can start to practice pme and ktttk and find out some of these things for myself.
asterion, the things that you say are very interesting, but i still don't understand it all naturally. i look forward to coming back to your comments when i am able to engage you meaningfully.
anika, as i understand it, some of these spirits might be real, but they are experienced subjectively and therefore
will appear differently to some folks, for example. this is in contrast to the objective existence of elementals, for example, which always take on one of 4 forms - salamanders, sylphs, undines, and gnomes - which supposedly always take the same appearance no matter what your paradigm is. magi and asterion, is this correct as you have experienced it? i am talking only from reading, not from experience here, and so i could easily miss some nuances that are left for me to experience as i actually do the workings.
yeah, i can't wait until i'm to the level where i can start to practice pme and ktttk and find out some of these things for myself.
asterion, the things that you say are very interesting, but i still don't understand it all naturally. i look forward to coming back to your comments when i am able to engage you meaningfully.
anika, as i understand it, some of these spirits might be real, but they are experienced subjectively and therefore
will appear differently to some folks, for example. this is in contrast to the objective existence of elementals, for example, which always take on one of 4 forms - salamanders, sylphs, undines, and gnomes - which supposedly always take the same appearance no matter what your paradigm is. magi and asterion, is this correct as you have experienced it? i am talking only from reading, not from experience here, and so i could easily miss some nuances that are left for me to experience as i actually do the workings.
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Original post: Asterion
D M , what i mean is this:
In some cases, many medieval authors claim that celestial beings can be summond better by means of their office, aka function, rather than name. In some instances , the name changes, and we could get a different aspect of that being in accordance with the time in which its called.
So maybe we take the Guardian of the West called Sanarel ( FICTITIOUS EXAMPLE) In a certain time he might be called SANAREL, then his name changes to NASAREL , then to RASANEL, then to RANASEL and so on, according to precise laws of permutation.
This is just a theory, but depends.
The spirit is the same, his seal is the same, but instead of calling him by one name it would be easyer to call him by the office:
O Thou Guardian of the West, hear my plea and answer truthfully by the power of your office and sign!
etc etc
The same goes for the 28 heads of the lunar houses and for the 45 (if im correct) of the sun domain.
So we will call The Head of the First Mansion of ALNATH, because his or her name might be changing. Once called he can tell us the name.
Or in the sun sphere, we call
O thou head of the sun sphere under the office ruled by the fixed star ALCHAMETH.
we have his seal, his personal signature, and that will be enough.
D M , what i mean is this:
In some cases, many medieval authors claim that celestial beings can be summond better by means of their office, aka function, rather than name. In some instances , the name changes, and we could get a different aspect of that being in accordance with the time in which its called.
So maybe we take the Guardian of the West called Sanarel ( FICTITIOUS EXAMPLE) In a certain time he might be called SANAREL, then his name changes to NASAREL , then to RASANEL, then to RANASEL and so on, according to precise laws of permutation.
This is just a theory, but depends.
The spirit is the same, his seal is the same, but instead of calling him by one name it would be easyer to call him by the office:
O Thou Guardian of the West, hear my plea and answer truthfully by the power of your office and sign!
etc etc
The same goes for the 28 heads of the lunar houses and for the 45 (if im correct) of the sun domain.
So we will call The Head of the First Mansion of ALNATH, because his or her name might be changing. Once called he can tell us the name.
Or in the sun sphere, we call
O thou head of the sun sphere under the office ruled by the fixed star ALCHAMETH.
we have his seal, his personal signature, and that will be enough.
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Original post: Frater C.
I'm of the opinion, at least at the moment, that the so called "cipher" of Quintscher should be seen as something similar to the tables of permutations used in the Kabbalah, i.e. a way to transform words using specific rules to create new words with new meanings still connected with the original words. So the "cipher" creates from ordinary words new barbarous words of power that in a magical setting can be used with more effect than the original ones. Thus I don't think the use of the cipher is for the purpose of hiding something, or a blind, but a part of Quintscher's magical techniques. I think this is obvious when you look how he used his "cipher" to change the biblical verses attributed to the angels of the Schemhamphorasch into invocations of barbarous words that could have come straight out of some old grimoire.
I'm of the opinion, at least at the moment, that the so called "cipher" of Quintscher should be seen as something similar to the tables of permutations used in the Kabbalah, i.e. a way to transform words using specific rules to create new words with new meanings still connected with the original words. So the "cipher" creates from ordinary words new barbarous words of power that in a magical setting can be used with more effect than the original ones. Thus I don't think the use of the cipher is for the purpose of hiding something, or a blind, but a part of Quintscher's magical techniques. I think this is obvious when you look how he used his "cipher" to change the biblical verses attributed to the angels of the Schemhamphorasch into invocations of barbarous words that could have come straight out of some old grimoire.
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Original post: Asterion
the code is not kabbalistic , to my knowledge. its just a code, it does not follow any tables of permutations of Agrippa or Eleazar, it s not based on Hebrew, it does not hold any speciffic magical imprint other than ..encoding, so that the grimoire can be used only by trusted disciples.
the verses used by Quintscher are not traditional hebrew ones, but German verses, with the name ADONIS instead of Adonay
the code is not kabbalistic , to my knowledge. its just a code, it does not follow any tables of permutations of Agrippa or Eleazar, it s not based on Hebrew, it does not hold any speciffic magical imprint other than ..encoding, so that the grimoire can be used only by trusted disciples.
the verses used by Quintscher are not traditional hebrew ones, but German verses, with the name ADONIS instead of Adonay
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Original post: Anika Divinorum
Does anyone have any idea what inspired the section on elemental spirits? Were those beings taken from another source like his planetary spirits or are they totally original to Bardon?
Does anyone have any idea what inspired the section on elemental spirits? Were those beings taken from another source like his planetary spirits or are they totally original to Bardon?
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Original post: destructive_metaphysician
thanks asterion, that made clear sense now, i couldn't get it with the first explanation for some reason.
thanks asterion, that made clear sense now, i couldn't get it with the first explanation for some reason.
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Original post: Frater C.
The verses are the same as the Hebrew and Latin ones, except they are translated into German, with Adonis/Evisul instead of Adonai, and then put into cipher.
So it is your opinion, if I understand you correctly, that Quintscher meant for all the words and texts in cipher to be deciphered by his trusted disciples, even the names of the spirits?
I didn't say that the cipher had a Kabbalistic origin, but that I believed that it could have been used in a similar way to Kabbalistic permutations.the code is not kabbalistic , to my knowledge. its just a code, it does not follow any tables of permutations of Agrippa or Eleazar, it s not based on Hebrew, it does not hold any speciffic magical imprint other than ..encoding, so that the grimoire can be used only by trusted disciples.
the verses used by Quintscher are not traditional hebrew ones, but German verses, with the name ADONIS instead of Adonay
The verses are the same as the Hebrew and Latin ones, except they are translated into German, with Adonis/Evisul instead of Adonai, and then put into cipher.
So it is your opinion, if I understand you correctly, that Quintscher meant for all the words and texts in cipher to be deciphered by his trusted disciples, even the names of the spirits?
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Original post: Asterion
most certainly... he goes to such lengths from mere pleasure of a cat and mouse game , because not only does he also invent words, like paracelsus, but he givesthe code, payoab, right in his books, openly!!!Frater C.;367708 wrote:I didn't say that the cipher had a Kabbalistic origin, but
So it is your opinion, if I understand you correctly, that Quintscher meant for all the words and texts in cipher to be deciphered by his trusted disciples, even the names of the spirits?
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Voici mon blog et un forum de recherche Quintscher et Adonis.
http://adonisme.forumpro.fr/
http://adonisme.eklablog.com/
http://adonisme.forumpro.fr/
http://adonisme.eklablog.com/
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hello, everybody probably does not know or about me, but I remember you ...
I'm with you and I desire that things being what they are take oneself to be sympathize a official family. So decidedly it all later to petition and demand what next ...
regards
I'm with you and I desire that things being what they are take oneself to be sympathize a official family. So decidedly it all later to petition and demand what next ...
regards
Re: the 360 Bardon genii
Can anyone here suggest any books that detail the demon prince Magot, his powers and what he's good for? The book I have, the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage doesn't say much about him. Google hasn't been overwhelmingly helpful on this point.
Thank you in advance for your serious replies.
Thank you in advance for your serious replies.