PROOF that magick works!

[LiberMagus]

Hello Fellows, I am not new to magick. Nevertheless, tell me by giving a real example (a scientific experiment, authentic video) of anything such as a servitor, a demon, invisible aural shield, telekinesis, literally anything esoteric that has been proven to even exist. I'm not talking here about mind altering techniques which are the core of chaos magick, or drugs that make you see things. I'm talking here about all those fairy stuff that is in fact just an imagination, a folklore, a superstition, the stuff about demons, ghosts, vampires, spirits etc. Also omit the subject of telepathy, because that's actually the spooky stuff in physics called quantum entanglement. Also children stories are of no interest to me.

I guess that's a good subject for Halloween and it's a shame we have to talk about it here not in a medieval cemetary.

[Vashta]

This might seem like a cop-out answer, but I'm not sure proof exists. Even under the tightest application of the scientific method, the results can almost always be explained away as random chance.

Closest I've seen:

But then, the jars weren't autoclaved, we don't know that they didn't use different spoons or sneeze in one jar, we only have their word to go by that the jars weren't tampered with, the jars haven't been tested for airtightness or spores, etc etc etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see empirical evidence, but I'm not sure there is any. Maybe someone else has something to share though?

[LiberMagus]

But again, that's reiki, it's not really magick. It's like acupuncture, these things work, there were scientific studies conducted on them and sufficient evidence was produced to even say that's not placebo! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/545019.stm
You said that even if you had some proof about things, scientists would always say it happened by chance, well I am a beginning scientist and I can tell you that's not that simple. Science is based on a fact and what is fact? You apply only a little from you own judgement here, most is data collecting and statistical analysis, however, even some fundamental laws of physics are still a theory!

But my question is an attempt to weed out all this bullshit that messed with my cognition of what is reality and what is not when I was studying magick when I was a kid. You know, invoking a demon that materializes in front of you, that kind of stuff I'm talking about here.

Have a look at this video, you will understand what I mean. Some people have gone so far in their imagination world that they get hurt!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

[Vashta]

Oh, I'm not saying that scientists would always say things happen by chance, that makes it sound like I'm being all anti-science, and I do have a science degree y'know ;P I'm saying there are always a ton of factors that need to be incorporated to rule out all other possibilities, and a good scientist will always endeavor to find every conceivable variable in the equation, peer review repeats the same process with however many sets of eyes, and a theory that stands up after some years of this becomes a hypothesis, and there is nothing in magic that has withstood this test, partly because a lot of the people who say they can prove it are charlatans using special effects, not in all cases, probably, but for example, ghost photos are easily explained as pareidolia or double-exposure. Demon videos are almost always special effects.

There is no empirical proof of Reiki, for example, and everyone who has tried to prove it has failed to do so, as I said, the rice experiment above hasn't been performed under the strictest application of the scientific method, and can't be accepted scientifically. I don't know if this experiment has been performed elsewhere with that kind of rigor, but I suspect not, because we'd hear about it, and this staement: "the serious methodological and reporting limitations of limited existing reiki studies preclude a definitive conclusion on its effectiveness." (vanderVaart, S; Gijsen, V; Wildt, S; Koren, G (2009). "A Systematic Review of the Therapeutic Effects of Reiki". The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 15 (11): 1157–1169) would not have made it through a peer review. Now, I'm not saying Reiki doesn't work, but scientific tests have failed to reach a conclusive answer on it, so to science, it is not accepted as true.

I guess I'm applying this to the more abstract magics, like doing a working to get money and then money turning up from somewhere unexpected: a direct causal link can not be derived empirically. If the world changes in conformance with your will, it is, at best, acausal, and deemed coincidence because no direct link can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

As for the kind of proof you're looking for - I don't believe it exists, not right now anyway, or if it does, it hasn't been scientifically verified. If it had, magic would be a scientifically accepted fact. If there was a real and genuine video of a materialising demon, which has been verified as something with no special effects, no trickery of any kind, like what you're asking for, then demons would be scientifically accepted.

Why continue in an absence of scientific backup? Because I don't believe it's been fully explored. The realm of the occult is a big unknown, the great mystery. And, I believe right now it's up to us to find the answers for ourselves, or wait for a working theory of everything. But science is a long way off a working theory of everything. Science, as you said, is still working out physical phenomena. As for losing your mind, well, you need to determine for yourself what is and isn't real, and be able to step back and look objectively at yourself. Accept nothing at face value, question everything. Even though I believe in magic, I don't accept it as an absolute. The gent in the video accepted his power as an absolute, and got a bloody nose for it, because his real power was probably a form of suggestion that relies on the recipient believing in the same.

I'll leave you with this for now:


“The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.” - Nikola Tesla

[Albion]

Just to pick up on one thing in this discussion.

Besides all the other areas of magic I work with I have practised Reiki for many years. Whilst many of the reiki-ites out their would probably contest this I would say Reiki is very much a magical system if only for the fact that it involves changing your state of consciousness; visualisation; and creation and use of energy...

Albion [wink]

[LiberMagus]

Reiki is very much a magical system if only for the fact that it involves changing your state of consciousness; visualisation; and creation and use of energy...
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then what isn't?

[Rauðolfr]

i would say that by the nature of magick, a truly scientific study is impossible.
Magick is based on attitude, perception, atmospherics and feelings, therefore there is no way to isolate this in a laboratory: everyone would have a vested interest in it going either way and therefore there would be so much static it likely wouldn't work.

that being said there have been studies which effectively 'prove' psi related phenomena:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Science-Psychic ... 085&sr=8-1
but you likely haven't heard of them. No scientist is going to hold up there hand and admit to a positive result, there is just too much at stake for that.

[Moth]

well, you might want to read Robert Jahn's write up of his telekinesis experiments with pachinko machines:

http://www.amazon.com/Margins-Reality-C ... 1936033003

and in case you have any doubts about him being a real scientist, here's his wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Jahn

You might also want to get in touch with the Society for Psychical Research (SPR) http://www.spr.ac.uk/ who have been scientifically investigating the paranormal since the late 19th century. Although the tone of your post suggests that you have already made up your mind...

EDIT: Also, shouldn't this be in the off-topic(occult) section or something?

[Rauðolfr]

It also occurs that 'proof' is interesting as an intellectual exercise, but is it really necessary?

I am reminded of some work my father has been involved in since his retirement. he is essentially an educational theorist and has come across a technique which could be touted as the 'cure for dyslexia'. at least in so far as reading ability goes. you can prove that consistently people who undergo the program improve their reading ability (both speed and comprehension) massively. so great is the difference that dyslexics are coming out as having a greater reading ability than so called normal people after the program.

however he has faced a lot of criticism with getting his research accepted as by the nature of the technique, there can be no double blind test.
but if it works then it works right? it doesn't matter whether its the placebo effect or the hawthorn effect or any other effect. none of the dyslexic people care WHY it works, only that it works.

If one practices magic and it has no observable effects whatsoever, then that person should not continue. if it does, then why stop?
proof is irrelevant in these circumstances.

I'm not telling you to go out and pick a fight with an MMA master though... difficult to beat the magic of a clenched fist.

[Moth]

It's difficult to apply the word 'proof' to something where the successful results are statistical in nature, and also when they rely on the nature of a human being's interactions in the experiment.

I feel that most of the problem is that normally, science proceeds forth from someone coming up with a theoretical framework to explain previously inexplicable results. They then use this framework to create more experiments, in order to prove or disprove the theory.

Magic currently has no overriding theoretical framework on which to base further experiments on. That, I think is the main sticking point, and what got me involved in magic in the first place. All of the frameworks I've seen (with the exception of Peter Caroll, at least) either have no point of contact with science's current theories/models of existence, are completely self-referential, or they seem to randomly throw the word 'quantum' around like it was as effective as 'Abracadabra'. They tend to look like this:



I've been researching this stuff for over twenty years now, and I'm just starting to get to the point where I have an theoretical explanation for magic, which builds on current physics. I'm finding that the reason it was so hard in the first place, was that, like Einstein trying to build a classical Unified Field Theory, there are a whole bunch of usual assumptions about the nature of things that you have to be prepared to chuck. I've mentioned bits in other threads, but I never know how much people actually want to read about theoretical underpinnings. After all, Crowley himself said "You don't need to know how a tractor works in order to drive one" but I think that is exactly what is holding back magic as a whole.

[LiberMagus]

You guys start writing books here, you 've ignored the question in this thread!

[LiberMagus]

It also occurs that 'proof' is interesting as an intellectual exercise, but is it really necessary?

If one practices magic and it has no observable effects whatsoever, then that person should not continue. if it does, then why stop?
proof is irrelevant in these circumstances.

I'm not telling you to go out and pick a fight with an MMA master though... difficult to beat the magic of a clenched fist.

So i elucidate the meaning of my query: the question wasn't about techniques you use to alter you consciousness or if it works for you or whatever, let me repeat: "I'm talking here about all those fairy stuff that is in fact just an imagination, a folklore, a superstition, the stuff about demons, ghosts, vampires, spirits etc. "

Alright? Please post your life experiences elsewhere and if you 've got authentic photo of a demon or a servitor, that's great, share it in this topic. I was asking about something solid not just what you've imagined to be and that it works, because I know it ok, i didn't start it to argue because that's an awful waste of time!

[Rauðolfr]

It also occurs that 'proof' is interesting as an intellectual exercise, but is it really necessary?

If one practices magic and it has no observable effects whatsoever, then that person should not continue. if it does, then why stop?
proof is irrelevant in these circumstances.

I'm not telling you to go out and pick a fight with an MMA master though... difficult to beat the magic of a clenched fist.

So i elucidate the meaning of my query: the question wasn't about techniques you use to alter you consciousness or if it works for you or whatever, let me repeat: "I'm talking here about all those fairy stuff that is in fact just an imagination, a folklore, a superstition, the stuff about demons, ghosts, vampires, spirits etc. "

Alright? Please post your life experiences elsewhere and if you 've got authentic photo of a demon or a servitor, that's great, share it in this topic. I was asking about something solid not just what you've imagined to be and that it works, because I know it ok, i didn't start it to argue because that's an awful waste of time!

well in that case. of course not. there is none.

[entropic]

Aww, somebody be nice and photoshop something for him? We cant let ppl down like this [grin]

[Moth]

He wanted telekinesis, I pointed him towards the most rigorous study ever done on telekinesis

"There's no pleasing some people."

"That's just what Jesus said, sir!"

[Nahemah]

To the OP,

Short answer: for further information consult your pineal gland. [greensmile]

Longer answer,but enigmatically short,all things being considered,mostly due to burst hands.

What can I say,vampirism has it's down sides,lolololol.....Porphyria,actually but some folk mistakenly believe it's linked with vampirism because of bad magickal misgivings and some rather strange old pseudoscience.... [bummed]

Genetic inheritance [re:genetic memory] Is one scientifically posited explanation for past lives/reicarnation/ancestral guidance and visions and other such 'fairytale related phenomena]

Tachypsychia: heightened physical awareness/ability of motor and sensory functions/altered perception of time,caused by hormonal surges in the brain.
Another scientifically posited explanation,this time for such fancies as berserkergang/bilocation/seething[ Seidr] and other such related superstitions and folklore.

There's tons more,but I can't type it out atm.Sorry.

Not all scientific study lies exclusively within the empirical domain by the way,it's not all coats and labs all the time.Most of it is,granted,but not all,also:Sociology is a Science,as is Anthropology.Just saying.

We don't live in a scientifically valid society,all the time either,lol. [crazy] Perhaps,just maybe, it's the parameters of current measurement that should be questioned?
It wasn't until Science began to question it'sprevious parameters that the joy of Quantum was truly unleashed,I think that's an important consideration,as others here have said already also.


...maybe these considerations and other areas of neurological,genetic,physiological and psychological research can answer,at least in part,those questions you have.

Look inside your own head too. [geek2]

[LiberMagus]

Nahemah , DUDE! you are now either totally taking the piss or you are entirely ignorant of what was the subject of this topic, the first line was 'I am not new to magick' alright? you don't need to educate me on inner journeys and pineal glands godsdammit!

[LiberMagus]

To finalize, I am pretty sure that all magick derives from kia while interactions between objects both inanimate and alive can be done on distance, but not possible to move them. It is not possible to take a picture of an entity which one is projecting because it is purely a deliberately induced hallucination and can be a group hallucination providing that minds will be working on the same frequencies, interconnected. In the case of group hallucination everybody will have more or less different perceiving of the projected entity.

Thanks for good effort, nice forum.

What is annoying, is that people write stuff that is just not happening even if you were Al Crowley. Things like methods to project energy to right hand and create a fireball or a snowball, invoke some demon and tell it to attack your foe, or tell it to find something for you, charging batteries with some 'servitors' wtf is this?

[Rauðolfr]

To finalize, I am pretty sure that all magick derives from kia while interactions between objects both inanimate and alive can be done on distance, but not possible to move them.

nice hypothesis, but with absolutely nothing to back it up.

It is not possible to take a picture of an entity which one is projecting

that's possibly true, but at this stage purely conjecture

because it is purely a deliberately induced hallucination and can be a group hallucination providing that minds will be working on the same frequencies, interconnected. In the case of group hallucination everybody will have more or less different perceiving of the projected entity.

this is a massive logical leap with no foundation. one which the evidence would seem to contradict. in my experience others have seen my servitors that had no apriori knowledge of those servitors existence... that's very difficult to explain within your model.

What is annoying, is that people write stuff that is just not happening even if you were Al Crowley. Things like methods to project energy to right hand and create a fireball or a snowball, invoke some demon and tell it to attack your foe, or tell it to find something for you, charging batteries with some 'servitors' wtf is this?

its a list of things you apparantly cannot do.

in my time i've made a woman concieve when the drs said it was medically impossible, I've rearranged my timeline so that things in my past that had happened now no longer have happened, i've sent a demon to knock two different people of motorbikes, i've seen gods in the flesh twice, fixed a computer without physically touching it, and many many more things. I'm not crazy, not a fantasist, i consider myself a sceptic.
I'm not boasting or talking myself up, I imagine that most accomplished magicians will have a list of similar feats. I see no reason to doubt them.

[Rin]

Instead of sitting there asking for other people to provide you proof, why don't you go to the effort of creating it for yourself?

[Vashta]

I'm a bit confused here, didn't you ask us to show you proof of magic? Is "There isn't any" not an answer to the question?

[LiberMagus]

in my time i've made a woman concieve when the drs said it was medically impossible, I've rearranged my timeline so that things in my past that had happened now no longer have happened, i've sent a demon to knock two different people of motorbikes, i've seen gods in the flesh twice, fixed a computer without physically touching it, and many many more things. I'm not crazy, not a fantasist, i consider myself a sceptic.
I'm not boasting or talking myself up, I imagine that most accomplished magicians will have a list of similar feats. I see no reason to doubt them.

Man, if you could just send a demon to knock people out like this, how many prominent people would be dying everyday, i.e. presidents, actors, musicians etc. i bet there are plenty of people hating, say , britney spears just a hypothetical example. if astral projection is not just an extraordinary activity of the brain and a real travel, we wouldn't bother going to mars physically, would we? actually US army spent millions on , i don't remember the name, but remember it was astral projection project to obtain information on enemy troops etc. but scrapped it because it didn't work.

Finally , if you could summon a demon and tell it to knock someone off a motorbike, if it is true, I should imagine A. Hitler to be able to produce thousands of such magicians and with such a great effort they'd be able to win the war within a few days. Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are a fantasy unfortunatelly or fortunatelly.

[Moth]

I don't think it's possible to argue with someone who's made up their mind in advance...

Like Grant Morrison says, Reading about magic is like reading about sex: it will get
you horny for the real thing but it won't give you nearly as much fun.

You need to do some magic, lift the seven veils and gaze on the tits of the infinite! (A phrase of Morrison's that always makes me giggle)

[Rauðolfr]

in my time i've made a woman concieve when the drs said it was medically impossible, I've rearranged my timeline so that things in my past that had happened now no longer have happened, i've sent a demon to knock two different people of motorbikes, i've seen gods in the flesh twice, fixed a computer without physically touching it, and many many more things. I'm not crazy, not a fantasist, i consider myself a sceptic.
I'm not boasting or talking myself up, I imagine that most accomplished magicians will have a list of similar feats. I see no reason to doubt them.

Man, if you could just send a demon to knock people out like this, how many prominent people would be dying everyday, i.e. presidents, actors, musicians etc. i bet there are plenty of people hating, say , britney spears just a hypothetical example. if astral projection is not just an extraordinary activity of the brain and a real travel, we wouldn't bother going to mars physically, would we? actually US army spent millions on , i don't remember the name, but remember it was astral projection project to obtain information on enemy troops etc. but scrapped it because it didn't work.

Finally , if you could summon a demon and tell it to knock someone off a motorbike, if it is true, I should imagine A. Hitler to be able to produce thousands of such magicians and with such a great effort they'd be able to win the war within a few days. Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are a fantasy unfortunatelly or fortunatelly.

you tire me.

[LiberMagus]

well then tell me last thing why magick wasn't used by hitler? surely if it worked (hitler's organization had occultist roots) hitler would order massive training of magicians, and according to your story, demons wouldn't hesitate to help them out would they? i tire you because when a strong argument is presented, you don't know what to say? it's always like that when people feel they r not right and by the way i didn't start any argument, and i don't say that magick doesn't work either you people only see what you want to see.