...deep in the very heart of the science?
This question has bothered me for a long time.And why?
1.Carl Jung (in his book "Aion") discusses the origins of the modern science, the materialism, rationalism and realism(which he seems to despise it and considers for a pathological event) from the tradition of the alchemy.
2.We know well, that from the astrology comes the astronomy; from the alchemy comes the chemistry, the psychology; Paracelsus has studied a variety of the witchcraft practices and this helped him found the basics of the modern pharmacy.
3.There is more direct connection between the rationalism/materialism/atheism and realism and the alchemy and hermetic tradition: the dialectical materialism of Hegel. About this, there are a lot of Internet sites, which discuss this problem.
4.It is useless to discuss the connection of the Freudian psychoanalysis and Cabala. This is very obvious. Actually, Freud and Jung recognized the occult phenomena.At first, Freud was sceptic, but later he published a book "Dreams and Telepathy". Carl Jung has his "Psychology and the occult".
5. For the rationalists, the scientists, the atheists and realists, the people, who are into the occult are delusional idiots or at least, ignorant fools(correct me if I am wrong). Occultism and science were incompatible. However, many of the the great scientists from Galileo Galilei till Nicola Tesla were esoteric/occult fans. Their occult interests do not seem to prevent them from making great scientific discoveries.
6.Finally: are there valid scientific proofs for ESPs, occult phenomena etc? I came to the conclusion, that there are and they are not hidden, as many conspiracy theories would claim, but the scientific community refuses to accept them.For example, the famous scientist Hermann von Helmholtz is heard to say, that despite the claims of the Royal Academy, the claims of many great scientists he refuses to accept, that it is possible to transmit thoughts in any other way, different of the conventional channels of the 5 senses. He was firm and no proofs or claims would change his mind. There are known some proofs, concerning the esoteric / parapsychology investigations in Russia and the countries "behind the Iron Curtain". They were widely discussed and lately "forgotten".
7.Do you remember, when the invisible cloak of Harry Potter was made real by the means of the nanotechnology? We know, that the air plane is considered to be the flying carpet/ the witches broom. The topic concerning the technology and magic (especially those of the fairy tales) could be widely discussed.
The hate of the scientific community(or at least the avoidance of the topic) towards the occult and magic seems to be similar to those of the christian church(and all the monotheistic religions at all) towards everything pagan.The story of Jesus is known to have origins in the pagan myths(those of Horus and Prometheus for example) and the similarities to be obvious. The image of the Christian/Jewish/Muslim God is a synthesis of the images of many other pagan deities.The name Yehovah comes from Yah, which is one of the names of the egyptian god Toth. "The Living God" or "The living one" is a name /title of Enki. El Shadai, who helped the Jews to pass through the Desert is Seth etc...However, if you explain this to a christian fundamentalist(or muslim...or a jewish) you will make him/her sick. The scientific fundamentalists react the same way. This is so, because the Magician/Occultist/Alchemist is the Shadow of the Scientist. And what are the relationships between the Personality and the Shadow Self, I think you know well. All this explains why the scientific community will reject to recognize the spirituality.
However, I do not say, that all the magic, alchemy and mysticism are the basis of the science, but any part of them certainly is. My question is, how big is this part and which aspects of the occult/the magical may be vital in the sphere of the science(but the scientists may be still unaware of them).
Why this is interesting?Knowing this, 3 ways are possible.
The first way is to create an occult paradigm, which will overcome the arrogance of the materialists and the "realists", it will shut their m and may make the occult accepted by the society. I have an idea how to do this. There is an metaphor, according to which, the world, governed by the materialism, rationalism and the pure science is a world made by concrete and steel. What about to re-create the matrix of the magical consciousness by a diamond? Remember, that the "concrete and the steel" (in Kaballa - Geburah and Binah???) and the "diamond"(Keter??) are just symbols.
The second way is a diabolical possibility: it is possible to control the development of the science(and the rationalism, the realism etc). All methods for psychological control over a personality or the masses are based on the shadow and the problems, hidden in the subconsciousness. Well, by saying "to control the development" I do not mean to make something bad.It is possible to speed up the development of the technology(this is possible due the fact, that many technological miracles seem to be found in the fairy tales and the folklore).
And the 3th way is to create the so called synthetic paradigm, which can unify both- science and magic. When the Personality and the Shadow become one, so the human being becomes whole and Carl Jung describes this as divine state.
Is there any hidden magical principle...
Re: Is there any hidden magical principle...
There is actually quite extensive scientific proof for what parapsychologists call 'psi phenomenon' (ESP, telepathy, psychokinesis, and to a lesser extent past life recall and out of body experiences). The problem is as you said, that the mainstream scientific community rejects this evidence both because to accept it would mean a substantial reframing of the worldview they've based all of their work on, and just out of sheer indoctrination and fear of the damage they can do to their career for not toeing the party line, so to speak. Too many of them are heavily invested, both in emotional terms and financial/career terms, in maintaining the status quo of hardcore materialism, and so they (I'm sure for a lot of them, unknowingly) use all sorts of logical fallacies and cognitive dissonances to ignore the evidence. If you want a more thorough look at the topic, both an evaluation of the evidence available and a discussion about why it's ignored by the scientific mainstream, look into the works of Dean Radin (himself a previously skeptical scientist), particularly his book 'The Conscious Universe' or his google tech talk on youtube:6.Finally: are there valid scientific proofs for ESPs, occult phenomena etc? I came to the conclusion, that there are and they are not hidden, as many conspiracy theories would claim, but the scientific community refuses to accept them.For example, the famous scientist Hermann von Helmholtz is heard to say, that despite the claims of the Royal Academy, the claims of many great scientists he refuses to accept, that it is possible to transmit thoughts in any other way, different of the conventional channels of the 5 senses. He was firm and no proofs or claims would change his mind. There are known some proofs, concerning the esoteric / parapsychology investigations in Russia and the countries "behind the Iron Curtain". They were widely discussed and lately "forgotten".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_O9Qiwqew
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"
- DDJ, Verse 27
"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"
- DDJ, Verse 27
"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett
Re: Is there any hidden magical principle...
This is a serious work to examine: http://www.amazon.com/The-Reality-ESP-P ... 0835608840
Re: Is there any hidden magical principle...
Interesting notion. Wink wink. But what you speak of would need a NEW paradigm of inquiry to be considered. The sources that you listed that considered the possibility are in the soft sciences, psychology and philosophy. More recently concepts (though not real understanding in many cases) of quantum physics have been used to justify or explain spirituality. These explanations are not going to be heard in the scientific community. In the realm of physical, physical explanations are the only things that can be heard. The paradigm, I would think, in order to be effective magical effects (manifestations of alterations in the physical world) would need to be both repeatable and measurable.The first way is to create an occult paradigm, which will overcome the arrogance of the materialists and the "realists", it will shut their m and may make the occult accepted by the society. I have an idea how to do this. There is an metaphor, according to which, the world, governed by the materialism, rationalism and the pure science is a world made by concrete and steel. What about to re-create the matrix of the magical consciousness by a diamond? Remember, that the "concrete and the steel" (in Kaballa - Geburah and Binah???) and the "diamond"(Keter??) are just symbols.
Spiritualism greatest weakness when discussing matters with those oriented to physical rationality is that the evidence is mainly circumstantial or antidotal. The evidence would need to at least be presented to the scientific community in a manner which reflects considerations of some of their most basic principles, and this is not likely with the current state of magical practice. Such a mind shift, in the overall field of human thought and awareness may indeed require a diamond, but would also need to be based within the realm of the current state of human conceptual reasoning skills.
Since Jung was mentioned, he also wrote of the collective unconscious. To influence such developments would simply be a matter of accessing the human mind field and speaking with the subconscious (or conscious as the case may be) mind of an individual who fits a TYPE who has the skills and the research interests to be able to accomplish the goal. That TYPE bit is actually quite important. While you may think you have in mind the perfect person for the job, that does not necessarily mean they are. There is no sense mucking up results because you contacted the wrong person. It is best to implant the idea of a TYPE and stipulate the skills needed then just wait for the results to come from wherever they will come from. As long as the job gets done, who cares who does it.The second way is a diabolical possibility: it is possible to control the development of the science(and the rationalism, the realism etc). All methods for psychological control over a personality or the masses are based on the shadow and the problems, hidden in the subconsciousness. Well, by saying "to control the development" I do not mean to make something bad.It is possible to speed up the development of the technology(this is possible due the fact, that many technological miracles seem to be found in the fairy tales and the folklore).
Speaking of which, I would not consider such a skill diabolical (Thank you for acknowledging it as merely a possibility). Quite simply, humans are talking to themselves and each other all the time in their minds (even in their sleep, yap yap yap). What are you to do? Ignore it?
What you seem to be referring to is the oft repeated ethical question. Is speaking to another mind, without that person’s conscious awareness, a violation of their free will, thus falling within one of their definitions of “evil”? The answer would be not necessarily.
In the scenario of which you speak, what is needed is the advancement of technology. Since it does not matter who fulfills the goals (though some are “better” able to do so than others), it would not of necessity violate free will. It would be the equivalent of posting a “job” for a needed technology on a job board, and seeing who volunteers to hear more. If they are aware enough (and you are loud enough), they know that the ideas come from the outside. If not, consider it inspiration. If someone won a Nobel Prize for their invention, I don’t think they would be complaining too loudly about the little subconscious “nudge” that got them moving in the right direction.
The sort of magik you seem to be describing, the opening and awareness of self, is already grasped within the realm of the science it relates to (psychology). It is not that science rejects magic, it is that the biologists and physics are not accepting evidence from psychology and philosophy as valid in their field. If the paradigm of magic were altered, it would need to be altered at the core in order to develop and implement a system of magic that consistently produces physically measurable and observable results.And the 3th way is to create the so called synthetic paradigm, which can unify both- science and magic. When the Personality and the Shadow become one, so the human being becomes whole and Carl Jung describes this as divine state.
If you speak, however, of more long term goals of the unification of the two branches of inquiry, then I would suggest that such things take time. In order to maintain a sustainable working system, the “natural” development of both fields would be needed. To force open the consciousness of the masses to their individual “divine selves” would currently shock their collective conscious. The most common result for individuals undergoing such a procedure is madness, and so I would not advise the tactic overall.
Re: Is there any hidden magical principle...
The thesis under consideration here requires an epistemological analysis of the meta-narrative of what one may define, within the perimeters set by the universe of possibilities which emanate from the predicate, what parvenu so quaintly call 'science.' In deconstructing the verbal hierarchy the core binary pair of 'hidden' in contra 'known' impose a phallo-pneumonic chain of artificial signifier which only serve to obscure this power dynamic.
One may gaze from a myriad vantage points upon this set of grammatical utterances devoid of the imperative, so clearly to those who have drunk from the well of wisdom, of the absolute relativity of logos in situ. The construct 'paradigm,' implies a mode of psycho-sexual dominance via verbal colonialism, attempting to obscure the plasticity of the dialogue into a text of heterosexual intercourse. Here the grammar of 'indicative' is a necessary corollary of that of 'subjunctive.' Hence, the true motive is exposed:
[tongue]
One may gaze from a myriad vantage points upon this set of grammatical utterances devoid of the imperative, so clearly to those who have drunk from the well of wisdom, of the absolute relativity of logos in situ. The construct 'paradigm,' implies a mode of psycho-sexual dominance via verbal colonialism, attempting to obscure the plasticity of the dialogue into a text of heterosexual intercourse. Here the grammar of 'indicative' is a necessary corollary of that of 'subjunctive.' Hence, the true motive is exposed:
[tongue]
Re: Is there any hidden magical principle...
I agree with your quandary and objection overall, but fault the language 
. A paradigm is not necessarily mutually exclusive and thus edging on verbal colonialism. The conjugation, as you note, depends on the syntax. There in too would be the plasticity, and freedom, of intellectual speech. Not in a word, but in all the lexicon combined.
So let us define our terms. In taking the poster’s subjunctive as indicative, I reflected the perfect (Or was that pluperfect? Time is such a silly thing.) This does not mean all other positions are negated in the affirmative, nor fetishes rejected. If the subjunctive becomes optative, then the conditional becomes potential.
. A paradigm is not necessarily mutually exclusive and thus edging on verbal colonialism. The conjugation, as you note, depends on the syntax. There in too would be the plasticity, and freedom, of intellectual speech. Not in a word, but in all the lexicon combined. So let us define our terms. In taking the poster’s subjunctive as indicative, I reflected the perfect (Or was that pluperfect? Time is such a silly thing.) This does not mean all other positions are negated in the affirmative, nor fetishes rejected. If the subjunctive becomes optative, then the conditional becomes potential.
Re: Is there any hidden magical principle...
Thanks for sharing your opinions 
.
Asurendra : I am thankful for the link of the book, you posted(of Russel Targ). Both books, of Dr. Dean Radin and Russel Targ will be examined.I hope to find more serious works, considering valid and serious scientific investigations of psi.
Ne1 :
These books and the opinion of other serious scientists make me doubt the objections(or at least one big part of it) of the majority of the (hard) materialistic scientists and people. Especially,when these objections are made emotionally, arrogant, offensive and even manipulative. It is strange, that the materialists and the rationalists use always the name of James Randi, a man, who is not scientist and even didn't finish his high school, but avoid the mentioning the names of PhD scientists, who have done a sofisticated research.
I will agree with the scientific community, that the attempts to explain psi with the quantum physics and super string theory is pseudoscience. I have made my research in this field and noted the mistakes, made by the parapsychologists.When the quantum physicists talk about "observer", they do not mean a conscious/intelligent observer. The observer may be a device or even something unorganic. Here the problem is the same as in the classical mechanics with the "starting point". Even the russian theory of the torsion fields, which was much more promising, didn't solve the problem, not at 100% at least. It is needed to distinguish between science and pseudoscience - it is in no favour neither for the scientists, nor for the occultists.
Whatever proofs to show to Mr.Randi, he is known, that he won't accept it and everybody, who has the stupidity to apply for his "prize", will meet rude awakening. I have thought(but I am not sure do I want it ), that he may deserve the same rude awakening. What about, if somebody attempts to break him with (black) magic? With this, the firm belief and the arrogance of the sceptics will be weakened. But once again, this is not a good idea - it may make the sceptics to obey, however it may make the occultists much more "outcasts"...
The idea of planting a thought in the collective unconsciousness is good and I have thought about this. It is possible, but it is necessarily to involve a large group of people. This may activate the Morphogenetic field( you may know the 100th monkey effect) and the effect of the (psychic) contamination. And this means, that anyway, a magical paradigm should be created. A magical paradigm, that will have to influence the society. Actually, every other occult paradigm does it: chaos magic, wicca, satanism, thelema...And this is so, because the people and the egregores are not separate, but are a part of the whole society, the planet and even beyond.A paradigm, that is very precisely structured , may have success with this.
.Asurendra : I am thankful for the link of the book, you posted(of Russel Targ). Both books, of Dr. Dean Radin and Russel Targ will be examined.I hope to find more serious works, considering valid and serious scientific investigations of psi.
Ne1 :
These books and the opinion of other serious scientists make me doubt the objections(or at least one big part of it) of the majority of the (hard) materialistic scientists and people. Especially,when these objections are made emotionally, arrogant, offensive and even manipulative. It is strange, that the materialists and the rationalists use always the name of James Randi, a man, who is not scientist and even didn't finish his high school, but avoid the mentioning the names of PhD scientists, who have done a sofisticated research.
I will agree with the scientific community, that the attempts to explain psi with the quantum physics and super string theory is pseudoscience. I have made my research in this field and noted the mistakes, made by the parapsychologists.When the quantum physicists talk about "observer", they do not mean a conscious/intelligent observer. The observer may be a device or even something unorganic. Here the problem is the same as in the classical mechanics with the "starting point". Even the russian theory of the torsion fields, which was much more promising, didn't solve the problem, not at 100% at least. It is needed to distinguish between science and pseudoscience - it is in no favour neither for the scientists, nor for the occultists.
Whatever proofs to show to Mr.Randi, he is known, that he won't accept it and everybody, who has the stupidity to apply for his "prize", will meet rude awakening. I have thought(but I am not sure do I want it ), that he may deserve the same rude awakening. What about, if somebody attempts to break him with (black) magic? With this, the firm belief and the arrogance of the sceptics will be weakened. But once again, this is not a good idea - it may make the sceptics to obey, however it may make the occultists much more "outcasts"...
The idea of planting a thought in the collective unconsciousness is good and I have thought about this. It is possible, but it is necessarily to involve a large group of people. This may activate the Morphogenetic field( you may know the 100th monkey effect) and the effect of the (psychic) contamination. And this means, that anyway, a magical paradigm should be created. A magical paradigm, that will have to influence the society. Actually, every other occult paradigm does it: chaos magic, wicca, satanism, thelema...And this is so, because the people and the egregores are not separate, but are a part of the whole society, the planet and even beyond.A paradigm, that is very precisely structured , may have success with this.
Re: Is there any hidden magical principle...
I find it ironic that this statement:
Hey, Pot, how's the Kettle doing?
As far as this Randi dude is concerned. Who fucking cares? He is uneducated and so cannot actually advance the mathematical and technological arena, and he doesn't practice so cannot advance the magical arena. If you want to spend your time trying to figure out how to access the collective unconscious so you can go torture this dude, that's your choice. But it won't make a drop of difference in the scheme of things in terms of actually ADVANCING the fields. I would recommend that if you value the potential for science that you adopt the methodology of rationality.
This mismatching of scientific terminology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphogenetic_field) and the IDEA (hypothesis, which was discredited) of some phenomena that has nothing to do with embryonic development of the cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_monkey_effect). They are two different "sciences" and the second one didn't use proper scientific method to back up it's claims.
https://webspace.utexas.edu/cokerwr/www ... ience1.jpg
THAT is why the hypothosis was rejected by the scientific community. The original studies into this proposed phenomenon, founded in part on the works of this dude: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake.
Again there are a number of generalizations and nifty words being used here, but I would suggest you actually take a look at what those different "occult paradigms" that you lumped together there and see what they actually say about all this (and since you are talking about mind raping this Randi dude, I recommend you also look up what they have to say about using magic to violate or remove someone's free will, just a hint).
Here's another hint if you are thinking of touching the human mind field directly: Volunteers work better than conscripts.
The same thing goes with trying to plant some idea into all their heads like "You believe in magic so therefore science accepts magic" (If you want to be really cool about it you could make ghost sounds while you are doing it, like "OOooooOOooo! You now BELIEVE it!" What if they don't want to believe it? What if this Randi dude has every right as an individual to NOT believe? That's his choice. Note the word: CHOICE. To implant such a thought (even if the human collective unconscious wouldn't vomit up such attempts at manipulative control) would violate their choice to be as blind as they feel like being.
It is one thing to use scientific method in the practice of magic and manifestation as a way to communicate to science. But it is the duty of magic to speak in the language of science if it wants to be accepted by science. Such efforts could help the the advancement of both fields, and these things take time and process and, well, science. This means work, not "implanting" some thought in the living collected that somehow "automatically" gets passed on....
If you wish to continue considering these sorts of lines of thought, I recommend that you read more peer reviewed sources for your science (even Wiki has some "peer" review, so it is a good place to cross check and make sure the "science" you are learning from spirituality isn't just using a bunch of fancy terms and outdated theories. Learn what it is that both the sciences and the different branches of magic actually have to say about these things. Bonus points if you can figure out which magical theory addresses scientific process.
Is shortly followed by this statement:Especially,when these objections are made emotionally, arrogant, offensive and even manipulative. It is strange....
Whatever proofs to show to Mr.Randi, he is known, that he won't accept it and everybody, who has the stupidity to apply for his "prize", will meet rude awakening. I have thought(but I am not sure do I want it ), that he may deserve the same rude awakening. What about, if somebody attempts to break him with (black) magic? .....
Hey, Pot, how's the Kettle doing?
As far as this Randi dude is concerned. Who fucking cares? He is uneducated and so cannot actually advance the mathematical and technological arena, and he doesn't practice so cannot advance the magical arena. If you want to spend your time trying to figure out how to access the collective unconscious so you can go torture this dude, that's your choice. But it won't make a drop of difference in the scheme of things in terms of actually ADVANCING the fields. I would recommend that if you value the potential for science that you adopt the methodology of rationality.
Yeah, sure. In theory perhaps, but since you are using the generalization of the theory and mismatching terminology, it looks like you haven't figured out how to actually do this. (And considering your emotional reaction and desire to use such as skill to go torture some dude who is completely useless in obtaining the overall goal anyway, perhaps humanity can be grateful for this.... pft.)The idea of planting a thought in the collective unconsciousness is good and I have thought about this.
Nope, but that is another story.It is possible, but it is necessarily to involve a large group of people.
Wait, what?This may activate the Morphogenetic field( you may know the 100th monkey effect) and the effect of the (psychic) contamination.
This mismatching of scientific terminology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphogenetic_field) and the IDEA (hypothesis, which was discredited) of some phenomena that has nothing to do with embryonic development of the cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_monkey_effect). They are two different "sciences" and the second one didn't use proper scientific method to back up it's claims.
https://webspace.utexas.edu/cokerwr/www ... ience1.jpg
THAT is why the hypothosis was rejected by the scientific community. The original studies into this proposed phenomenon, founded in part on the works of this dude: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake.
He didn't follow scientific method. He did not follow the guidelines of the scientific community. Those guidelines are there for a reason. Scientific process is there for a reason.Sheldrake's "morphic resonance" hypothesis is widely rejected within the scientific community with some calling it pseudoscience and magical thinking. Concerns include the inconsistency of the hypothesis with accepted scientific theories and associated evidence for them, lack of evidence for the hypothesis, and concern that the hypothesis is overly vague and unfalsifiable.Sheldrake's experimental methods have been criticised for being poorly designed and subject to experimenter bias,and his analyses of results have also drawn criticism.
Again, nope. I recommend that you go read up on Jung's theories (and their critiques) of the collective unconscious for one thing. It looks like you are drawing ideas off of new age hooey and acknowledged pseudoscience.And this means, that anyway, a magical paradigm should be created.
A magical paradigm, that will have to influence the society. Actually, every other occult paradigm does it: chaos magic, wicca, satanism, thelema...And this is so, because the people and the egregores are not separate, but are a part of the whole society, the planet and even beyond.A paradigm, that is very precisely structured , may have success with this.
Again there are a number of generalizations and nifty words being used here, but I would suggest you actually take a look at what those different "occult paradigms" that you lumped together there and see what they actually say about all this (and since you are talking about mind raping this Randi dude, I recommend you also look up what they have to say about using magic to violate or remove someone's free will, just a hint).
Here's another hint if you are thinking of touching the human mind field directly: Volunteers work better than conscripts.
The same thing goes with trying to plant some idea into all their heads like "You believe in magic so therefore science accepts magic" (If you want to be really cool about it you could make ghost sounds while you are doing it, like "OOooooOOooo! You now BELIEVE it!" What if they don't want to believe it? What if this Randi dude has every right as an individual to NOT believe? That's his choice. Note the word: CHOICE. To implant such a thought (even if the human collective unconscious wouldn't vomit up such attempts at manipulative control) would violate their choice to be as blind as they feel like being.
It is one thing to use scientific method in the practice of magic and manifestation as a way to communicate to science. But it is the duty of magic to speak in the language of science if it wants to be accepted by science. Such efforts could help the the advancement of both fields, and these things take time and process and, well, science. This means work, not "implanting" some thought in the living collected that somehow "automatically" gets passed on....
If you wish to continue considering these sorts of lines of thought, I recommend that you read more peer reviewed sources for your science (even Wiki has some "peer" review, so it is a good place to cross check and make sure the "science" you are learning from spirituality isn't just using a bunch of fancy terms and outdated theories. Learn what it is that both the sciences and the different branches of magic actually have to say about these things. Bonus points if you can figure out which magical theory addresses scientific process.