The light finally dawned (seeing through Patriarchy)

[Rebis]

I'll presume this is the place for such a post.

It won't be long-winded. Simply seeking to relate my personal awakening.

My childhood (from age 6) was intense born-again Christian. Gladly left that scene in my late teens. In early 20's, a brief experience with "New Age spirituality"; was helpful to a point, learned to respect and accept myself. But overall NAS proved superficial; I moved on.

In mid-1990s I did a lot of "comparative religion" reading. First real exposure to occult (Wicca, Paganism, ceremonial magick, etc.). Being pre-internet, I felt too isolated, and ongoing arguments in Letters sections of magazines/periodicals were confusing and off-putting. I also read some feminist literature, which mostly struck me as being written by men haters who might have come from abusive homes or whatever.

Went on to read/study a lot of secular philosophy. Became quite enamored of the 18th century and its Enlightenment philosophers. Discovered Carl Jung! [smile]

During this time, my husband involved himself in an allegedly progressive Christian church; highly educated congregation which does a lot of charity work and etc. He attended alone for years; I refused.

After his health took a scary nosedive and he continued going alone, I felt guilty and decided to introduce myself to his church...on the basis of volunteering at a mid-week program for teens and children (hot meal provided, activities, games).

Well.

Did I ever find out - TRULY see - the bias against women.

Yep, some of those "crazy FemiNazis" whose stuff I'd read years prior?...I owed them an apology! [stare] Sad to say, they were mostly right. [oh]

I was continually scrutinized, became the brunt of intense and ongoing gossip (which spilled over into the community [businessmen]), a small group of men began making very aggressive advances; because I'm pretty, apparently wanting/hoping I were a "Jezebel." When I began resisting, some turned their wives against me. [bummed] It didn't take long to figure out why unmarried women are absent, and lots of wives DON'T attend anything with their husbands. Stalking behaviors, etc. - including in a store parking lot. Laughing, jeering, making sport of me (and who else?).

I informed my husband (and their pastor). Of course we left!!

No matter what I'd have said or done, those men would have made me wrong. And that's THE mark of misogyny: She must be wrong.

It blew my mind. These so-called progressive, egalitarian, educated Christian men. And I flashed back to all I'd experienced in church as a kid/teen (always made wrong somehow; subjected to constant put-downs and double standards), which somehow I'd thought was exclusive to my hometown and two fundamentalist denominations.

Nope. [mad]

Here I am, facing all that again. [bummed]

*Click!* On came the light.

Doesn't matter if it's here or there (State), which denom, white collar or blue collar, etc. It's Patriarchal religion.

Christianity (and Islam and Judaism) are rooted in degrading and reviling women. And despite some Christian groups supposedly claiming equality, the root is still there. I've come to think that most, if not all, of our societal ills are a result of those life-hating religions. Women conceive, bear, nurture the young. Degrade and abuse that, and anything else is up for being degraded and abused.

So this "agnostic" suddenly understood the importance of Paganism. The truth, beauty, true gender equality which is Paganism. What I'd read years ago, about Paganism - that clicked too. And I've embraced it! [yay] It is female-embracing and so is also truly life-embracing.

It's only been within Witchcraft and Paganism, and also secular groups (science), that I've felt accepted and dignified (by the men within these groups) as an equal human.

Thank you for reading.

[Asurendra]

"Yep, some of those "crazy FemiNazis" whose stuff I'd read years prior?...I owed them an apology! [stare] Sad to say, they were mostly right. [oh] "
- FloraDevotee

So, what does FloraDevotee think of the males who post on this Forum? She's free to express whatever she wants, really, but I think there should be full disclosure. Perhaps it can be found by examining those to whom she sadly apologized.

“I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honourable and viable political act.” – Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor

“To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.” -– Valerie Solanas

“I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.” — Andrea Dworkin

“Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear” — Susan Brownmiller

“All heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent.” — Catherine MacKinnon

“The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” — Sally Miller Gearhart

“Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.” – Catherine Comins

“All men are rapists and that’s all they are” — Marilyn French

“Probably the only place where a man can feel really secured is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release.” — Germaine Greer.

Reading this menagerie of the core beliefs of those "FemiNazis" (the term used) reminds me why I am so thankful to be a homosexual male!

[Nahemah]

I advise all participants to break out your Asbestos suits as,it's gonna get really hot in here... [eg]

Perhaps we should first take a little step back and look at context,before diving further into the Inferno?

Did I ever find out - TRULY see - the bias against women.

Yep, some of those "crazy FemiNazis" whose stuff I'd read years prior?...I owed them an apology! [stare] Sad to say, they were mostly right. [oh]

I was continually scrutinized, became the brunt of intense and ongoing gossip (which spilled over into the community [businessmen]), a small group of men began making very aggressive advances; because I'm pretty, apparently wanting/hoping I were a "Jezebel." When I began resisting, some turned their wives against me. [bummed] It didn't take long to figure out why unmarried women are absent, and lots of wives DON'T attend anything with their husbands. Stalking behaviors, etc. - including in a store parking lot. Laughing, jeering, making sport of me (and who else?).

I informed my husband (and their pastor). Of course we left!!

No matter what I'd have said or done, those men would have made me wrong. And that's THE mark of misogyny: She must be wrong.

Rebis's experience led her to say what she did and note she said mostly and also included the fact that she is referring to a small group of men within a greater community.

Given that, though, a small yet powerful sub group like the one she has described, usually possesses a disproportionate amount of power within the community and often leads the opinions and actions of others within that community.

It's very brave to run against that kind of closed perception and it rarely ends well for the persons who do so.

Context is very important here.

Also,using the term Feminazi as Rebis did,'within brackets', is indicative of irony and not necessarily showing or expressing full agreement with an extreme point of view.
So,running with this small part of what she said and only this part, is further justifying those extreme points of view and is by no means a fair assessment of either her experience or her post here about it.

It excludes the middle and it serves only to minimise and ridicule the very real and very important struggles of all those who have been disenfranchised and marginalised by Abrahamic supremacy and privelege,over a very long period of time.

Here's a wee starter article,which is relevant to Rebis's experience,to explain a few of her points further and in greater detail,they apply mostly to American religious denominations,but as that is where Rebis experienced her ordeal,it's appropriate,it dosn't catch everything and it's not meant to either :

http://www.alternet.org/belief/10-thing ... ibly-wrong

Are you playing Devil's advocate here,Asurendra or did you perhaps not pick up on the indication of irony around Flora's use of the term 'Feminazi' ?

I have lot more to contribute here and I'd like to see a fruitful discussion evolve out of this topic,but we all need to remember a few things,including this very salient point:

Loss of privelege is not synonomous with loss of rights and others gaining equality with those who have always had full rights and indeed priveleges under law ,is not an attack on Western society or civilisation as we know it,either.


Suit up now people. [eek]

[Rebis]

Me, in initial post:

It's only been within Witchcraft and Paganism, and also secular groups (science), that I've felt accepted and dignified (by the men within these groups) as an equal human.

Me, in a private exchange with a male member of this board (today):

Also, I did extend credit to reasonable men (science, Paganism) who are gender equitable and fair. I've had good experiences with these men for years, and stated such.

Asurendra: I'm only familiar with Marilyn French, in your list of quotes. And I don't agree with the bulk of those reactionary/incendiary comments. I see men as EQUALS.

reminds me why I am so thankful to be a homosexual male!

I'm friends with Clive Barker (the author/filmmaker/artist), who is completely "out" as a proud gay man. Recently his personal assistant, a young artist who is also openly gay, participated in a fundraiser walk to raise money for AIDS research. I contributed money to Alex as a participant.

Some of my best friends have been gay males: Van, Richard, Brent.

p.s.: Asurendra, I'm currently penning two novels, which hopefully will be published; in each are believable (I hope!) and dignified homosexual characters; I also advocate for marriage equality in the one especially. Hopefully I'm handling it well, as a heterosexual female. I'm also writing a very talented transvestite on Mars!

I hope you will see that I am not wanting to be an enemy.

[Rebis]

And I'd like to clarify regarding what feminist literature I read (around 1993/1994). I don't recall the author's names; Marilyn French is a name I recognize, though I'm unsure if I actually read her.

I stopped reading feminist literature because quite a bit of it struck me (still does) as unfair and reactionary. I also stopped subscribing to a feminist Pagan periodical for the same reason. Quite a few of those women were not seeking to be constructive, to beneficially address certain issues; some were merely angry/bitter, and seeking to "get even." I've a female relative who is that way; when she's married, she's pleased as punch and everything's rosy. When there's a breakup/divorce, SHE HATES ALL MEN!! [rolleyes]

A man at the time (don't remember his name - it's been years) pointed out that some women were making "Mother Goddess seem like Father God in a skirt." I agreed.

Where's the true balance? The true equality?

But a couple of points did stay with me, one of which was "The female (in patriarchal systems/religions) is always dealt a handicap." I didn't want that to be true, but my own experiences have borne it out. A good secular example is unequal pay for equal work. I don't make as much money per year as my male colleagues, because I might become pregnant and take maternity leave (a difficulty for the company). Well? We're childless, didn't have children, won't have children (our choice)...so why am I still not getting equal pay for equal work?

There will always be radicals and nuts in any group, even amongst the well intended.

Asurendra, the Patriarchal religious systems with which I had continual and ongoing troubles (put-downs, scrutiny, double standards applied to me, emotional and mental abuse) are just as hostile to homosexuals (their scriptures, laws, etc). In that sense, we're on the same side.

[Rin]

Loss of privelege is not synonomous with loss of rights and others gaining equality with those who have always had full rights and indeed priveleges under law ,is not an attack on Western society or civilisation as we know it,either.

Just want to point out that It isn't really fair to assume that any male distaste for feminist ideology stems from a fear of losing male privilege. There are plenty of reasonable objections to feminism, especially in it's modern iterations, that don't involve 'but I like being better off than woman!" Not to mention that the very notion of male privilege is, in this day and age, somewhat questionable.

That said, I'll certainly agree that women get the short end of the stick in most of the Abrahamic religions. Blew my mind when my intelligent, educated and very much independent sister, who converted to Greek Orthodox in her 20's, swore to 'honor and obey' her husband at her wedding :/ I get that the vow is probably traditional, and knowing her and her husband, most likely not applicable to them in practicality, but it's still a pretty crazy thing to have said in 21st century Australia, and left me wondering how many other couples get married in that Church and take it seriously.

[Nahemah]

Rin,The point you've quoted is the one I made which applies to all those who've not been priveleged under the Abrahamic Patriarchy and who've been disenfranchised/marginalised and that encompasses more than women's rights alone,a lot more and it dosen't only apply to feminism.

Did you read the article I posted?

It mentions various wrongs perpetrated by Abrahamic religion,including slavery.The point you quoted is a broadly made one,which I stated because I was aware that the issues of equality,apply to all of us,not just those of us born female.

And I would like you to clarify this part of what you said,please,in particular:

...Not to mention that the very notion of male privilege is, in this day and age, somewhat questionable.

Is it?

Not from where I'm standing and from what I see around me,but perhaps it's very different where you are.

Wage inequality is still rife here as are many of the other inequalities that have been prevalent in UK society for a very long time.Gay men still get beaten up and often killed here,purely because of their sexual orientation/identity and rape culture is unfortunately still far too widespread and acceptable for comfort,to name a few examples and these are not extreme examples either.

The following is an anecdotal evidenced story,based on what I understand from one of the many people I've engaged with in regard to issues of feminism and equality,it's informal but it's relevant,so I've included it anyway:

According to one of my Greek friends,domestic violence is still considered acceptable chastisement for a 'disobedient wife' in her culture.She grew up with it and is still shocked that her own mother didn't consider her beatings anything out of the ordinary.My friend recalls the many times she and her sister hid under the kitchen table while it was happening and how her big sister covered her ears to drown out the noises.She lives over here now,granted and she left Athens behind her as soon as she was legally able to.I can't say how common her experience is,though,as I really don't know enough to quote statistics yet,but I'd still say that is unacceptable whether it's quite rare or otherwise.

There are plenty of reasonable objections to feminism, especially in it's modern iterations, that don't involve 'but I like being better off than woman!

Could you also please give some of these reasonable objections?

I'd like to know what they are,as your statement is both unqualifiable and unanswerable without any idea of what these objections actually are.

More later.

[Rebis]

That said, I'll certainly agree that women get the short end of the stick in most of the Abrahamic religions. Blew my mind when my intelligent, educated and very much independent sister, who converted to Greek Orthodox in her 20's, swore to 'honor and obey' her husband at her wedding :/ I get that the vow is probably traditional, and knowing her and her husband, most likely not applicable to them in practicality, but it's still a pretty crazy thing to have said in 21st century Australia, and left me wondering how many other couples get married in that Church and take it seriously.

I don't presume to know your sister, but want to say that she might not truly realize the overall issue/matters at stake. I'm in my 40s, and didn't until very recently; and I feel so dumb! [confused] Females seem highly socialized to "humor the male"; just go along with it, doesn't really mean anything, c'mon be a good sport, you're over-reacting and it's no big deal, you're being silly...etc. Sure. Make a person of one race to say that to a person of a different race; there'd be rightful outrage!

I willfully (a lot of pain to forget) did not "process" my childhood religious experiences. Wanted to put it behind me, and move on. Most of adulthood has been as agnostic; focused on science, space exploration, philosophy; thought I understood life overall.

Well, no...I had quite a wake-up call recently.

I've had years of good and quality interaction with male friends, both in real life and online (especially the latter), revolving around science and philosophy. And what a shock it was, involving myself on a volunteer basis at my husband's ex-church, and again encountering blatant and institutionalized sexist attitudes. And that church allegedly progressive, whose congregation is mostly white collar/highly educated.

I sure did flash back fast to experiences as a teenager and childhood church (a fundamentalist blue collar denomination).

Once again: Immense scrutiny, certain men (not all; but enough [to make it miserable]) behaving as though they're absolutely entitled to judge your moral worth, those men justifying every attitude and behavior of theirs (gossiping, making advances, etc.) and meanwhile you'd better watch every breath. I'm not exaggerating; it's disturbing and hypocritical. Those particular men also had "Stepford" type wives; very agreeable, very sweet, not much personality, very quiet. To them, a woman's "not allowed."

It occurred to me: This isn't about "certain folks back home and my childhood church"...it's Patriarchal religion overall. How could I have not really "gotten that" prior?

What a contrast to most men who are away from Abrahamic religion(s)! The difference is like night and day; it's a profound difference.

Speaking only for myself, I think I'm just starting to understand how overall destructive and throttling and human-hating these religions truly are. Puritanism, the Inquisition, monasticism, celibacy, hijabs, requiring women to endure the pains of childbirth "because of Eve" (supposedly Jesus made women equal, but St. Paul said "Not so fast! Eve bit that apple first, all women will continue to pay!"). On and on it goes, and it effects men too!

I do require healing. I'm getting that through embracing Paganism ... embracing LIFE and balance; truly understanding and appreciating those concepts! I've begun reading (alongside feminine-oriented Pagan stuff) about The Green Man, The Horned God, etc. I have a good relationship with my Animus, who assists with my writing.

I don't reject the male, never have. But I sure have seen, like repeated punches to the face, how the female is often rejected or denied or deprived.

[Asurendra]

First, I have said in a number of posts that I believe people are entitled to hold and express any view they like, no matter what I or anyone else happen to think of it. I disagree with censorship of any form (but, I don't like under the emerging Soviet-style tyranny of the EU like Nahemah & Vasta - waves a flag to hide NSA -). So, if Flora had responded saying that she was divorcing her husband to take his bank account and move to a lesbian commune to magically castrate patriarchy I would hope she would be happy.

My views on Jehovah are also well established. I worship the Supreme Being and God of gods (boosterism!) Lord Shiva and one of the ways He manifest Himself is as my dear sweet ol' Mother, Kali Maa.

Flora wrote, "I stopped reading feminist literature because quite a bit of it struck me (still does) as unfair and reactionary" so the error of the original post was to mention those passé Gender Feminists (whom I quoted) at all. They are what is meant, specifically, by the term 'FemiNazi.' The origin of this term is from the right-wing talk show host Rush Limbaugh. He dubbed them this in the early 1990's and it became a part of the culture. Flora was thinking of this broadly (without that piece of information), while I was thinking of it specially, referring to one defined group.

By the way, Flora, Andrea Dworkin wrote a book attacking women like you who think you are equal to men and that we are not evil, it is called 'Right Wing Women.' They are no different from any Patriarchy in that they demand conformity to the power structure above all else. Look into Camile Paglia on her experiences.

In the way I was reading this, was I wrong to bring-up this issue? I don't think so. Flora actually said "crazy FemiNazis" in quotes which communicates that the irony is they were considered 'crazy,' but are not (although she is speaking without knowing them). That's why she said they were 'mostly right' and apologized to them. I thought about this a long time and decided to test this statement with others like:

"After I was mugged by the third black man the light finally dawned. Yep, some of those "crazy KKK" whose stuff I'd read years prior?...I owed them an apology! [stare] Sad to say, they were mostly right. [oh]"

So, Nahemah, would you be defending me in the same way for such a statement? Would you excuse it with "well, he only mostly (more than 50%) agrees with the KKK, so, it's okay." The 'hate' of the KKK is no different from the 'hate' of the FemiNazi Gender Feminists.

I'm glad to hear Flora does not agree with them.

[Rebis]

... reminds me why I am so thankful to be a homosexual male!

Note to the Moderators: You needn't worry about a big flame war erupting. This will be my only in regards to him (and perhaps my last in the thread itself).

I was going to ignore Asurendra after his latest, but a previous comment (above) returned to mind. I'd like to address it (but not to him personally, as he apparently does me the ongoing unwarranted discourtesy of not directly replying to me; so I'll do likewise).

Frankly, it doesn't ring true - considering my friendships and social exposure to gay men - that Asurendra is what he claims. My experience with gay men is they're friendly or neutral. Not hostile, and especially not carrying around a readily collected "laundry list" of comments by nuts and radicals to use against honest women (like myself) who mention social ills they've faced on the basis of gender. No, Asurendra's comments and behaviors are in line with men who've been romantically aggrieved by women.

I don't have a "laundry list" of stupid and/or incendiary comments made by gays. Why should I? I do recall one (a call for childless married [hetero] couples' marriages to be legally dissolved, on the basis of certain Christians insisting traditional marriage is primarily for procreation)...wow, just one. Maybe I should track down a handful? But why?

His seeming insistence that a woman either totally agrees with any and all feminists 100% or that she can't have any basis whatsoever of complaint against society is another mark of bitterness (relationships with women gone sour).

Not interested in "mixing it up" with trolls. Asurendra seems not to want to understand or sympathize in the least...which is the mark of a straight man who's been hurt.

I've never encountered a gay man who begrudged an honest woman for what unfairness she's encountered. Frankly I still don't believe I have. A gay person knows about unfairness all too well, and doesn't seek to make another person deny or diminish unfairness they've faced. Not in my 25+ years of ongoing friendships with gays.

I hope Asurendra finds peace of mind...and a hobby (aside from disgracing the gay community by behaving borishly while claiming to be gay).

Life's too short for silly games.