Original post: Anika Divinorum
It's kinda cool that no one has proof that entities are real. If we had scientific evidence, everyone would be out making offerings to demons and your next door neighbor would be stealing your ritual tools when you're on vacation.
Are they real?
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Are they real?
Original post: Kath_
I think you have a really really healthy & smart approach Veritas. skepticism & open-mindedness are the ideal marriage for anyone seeking knowledge.
I tend to do like you, i don't immediately jump to the conclusion that entities are real, that magick isn't psychosomatic, etc. However, with compounding evidence that such things are something more substantial than 'mental masturbation'... I seem to find myself not being so quick to reach for my skepticism.
I've always had a very strong interest in 'validate-able information', things which you can learn through nonphysical means, which you can later go and confirm. And '3rd party perceptive' content. Listening to the impressions & perceptions of other people, without giving them any hints regarding what you'd be looking for in a matching description of perceptions.
I would say this though, that I have come to model 'mind' as being something which in it's entirety is substantially larger than the physical brain itself. So In this context, a 'thoughtform' could in fact be *both* psychological in nature, *and* be tangibly substantial.
for some reason I want to go rent Forbidden Planet again now.
anyways
Kath
I think you have a really really healthy & smart approach Veritas. skepticism & open-mindedness are the ideal marriage for anyone seeking knowledge.
I tend to do like you, i don't immediately jump to the conclusion that entities are real, that magick isn't psychosomatic, etc. However, with compounding evidence that such things are something more substantial than 'mental masturbation'... I seem to find myself not being so quick to reach for my skepticism.
I've always had a very strong interest in 'validate-able information', things which you can learn through nonphysical means, which you can later go and confirm. And '3rd party perceptive' content. Listening to the impressions & perceptions of other people, without giving them any hints regarding what you'd be looking for in a matching description of perceptions.
I would say this though, that I have come to model 'mind' as being something which in it's entirety is substantially larger than the physical brain itself. So In this context, a 'thoughtform' could in fact be *both* psychological in nature, *and* be tangibly substantial.
for some reason I want to go rent Forbidden Planet again now.
anyways
Kath
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Occult Forum Archive
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Are they real?
Original post: filthofstars
[QUOTE=Alekhine;336520]if you're interested in an alternative perspective, read
Simulacra and Simulation
--apply what it says to your magick[/QUOTE]
Along with Marshall Mcluhan.
[QUOTE=Alekhine;336520]if you're interested in an alternative perspective, read
Simulacra and Simulation
--apply what it says to your magick[/QUOTE]
Along with Marshall Mcluhan.
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Occult Forum Archive
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Are they real?
Original post: January
[QUOTE=VeritasRequiem;336489]I recently performed my first evocation, and am starting to have some serious questions about the practice, although my doubts are probably the reverse of what is expected. I like to consider myself somewhat of a realist. I believe in what i can see, smell, taste...prove. When i first began studying ceremonial magick, i was under the impression that it was something generated from the unconscious mind. The whole Jungian theory of Collective Unconscious, or perhaps reaching something hidden away in your subconscious. I guess i kind of figured that it would be something kind of lucid, like hypnosis or guided meditation. However, after the events that transpired I find myself starting to find myself really starting to believe in the existence of these entities in a real way, not just a thought or a dream, but something more solid.[/QUOTE]
I had the same experience as you, so I know where you're coming from.
I used to believe that the spirits you call in evocation were simply aspects of the mind, until I actually did an evocation myself. The good thing about that experience, and the ones after it, is that it left no doubt in my mind - the bad thing about it was it utterly negated all my thoughts about how reality works up to that point, and those thoughts then seemed very childish and silly.
There is only so much that Freud or Jung or whoever else can tell you, their framework can only go so far. Even though people have been dealing with what you have for thousands of years it's STILL uncharted territory, we have the means along with speculation as to how it all works written by the magicians and mystics of the ages, but when reading their writings what they say never seems sufficient.
[QUOTE=VeritasRequiem;336489]I recently performed my first evocation, and am starting to have some serious questions about the practice, although my doubts are probably the reverse of what is expected. I like to consider myself somewhat of a realist. I believe in what i can see, smell, taste...prove. When i first began studying ceremonial magick, i was under the impression that it was something generated from the unconscious mind. The whole Jungian theory of Collective Unconscious, or perhaps reaching something hidden away in your subconscious. I guess i kind of figured that it would be something kind of lucid, like hypnosis or guided meditation. However, after the events that transpired I find myself starting to find myself really starting to believe in the existence of these entities in a real way, not just a thought or a dream, but something more solid.[/QUOTE]
I had the same experience as you, so I know where you're coming from.
I used to believe that the spirits you call in evocation were simply aspects of the mind, until I actually did an evocation myself. The good thing about that experience, and the ones after it, is that it left no doubt in my mind - the bad thing about it was it utterly negated all my thoughts about how reality works up to that point, and those thoughts then seemed very childish and silly.
There is only so much that Freud or Jung or whoever else can tell you, their framework can only go so far. Even though people have been dealing with what you have for thousands of years it's STILL uncharted territory, we have the means along with speculation as to how it all works written by the magicians and mystics of the ages, but when reading their writings what they say never seems sufficient.
Re: Are they real?
I believe we are much more powerful than we suspect. Perhaps we create the gods, rather than the other way around. Zoe Seven believes we emit a psy-emp each time we make a choice, and that psy-emp creates a whole new reality in which the opposite of the decision we made plays out, so that all possible realities play out.
Free or drug free? America can't be both!
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Thoth The Atlantean
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Re: Are they real?
Great posts shared. To those of you who speak of/have had direct experiences with these other-dimensional beings, can you describe those experiences in more detail? Do you actually see them manifest right in front of you in full form? Do they communicate with you? Do they speak outloud to you or through telepathy? Do they make facial expressions like anybody would? Do they know exactly why they are being summoned and everything about you, or are they just as clueless of your existence as you are of theirs? Can/do they help you? In which ways? How easy/difficult is it to successfully summon a being to manifest for you? I have so many questions and I would be highly appreciative to anybody with experience who can answer them in truth. If you rather share your answer privately, then just PM me. Thank you!
Re: Are they real?
I've seen what McKenna describes as "self transforming machine elves" on several occasions. They notice humans but are pretty indifferent to us. Sometimes they seem very busy "blowing up" (creating really, they don't seem to breathe) these "cartoon speech bubbles" (for lack of a better description). All they ever say is, "Do this!". They sometimes look like they're riding a unicycle, but the unicycle is actually part of their body. They morph seemingly responding to what they're doing.
Free or drug free? America can't be both!
Re: Are they real?
I quote the Original post: VeritasRequiem
"I recently performed my first evocation, and am starting to have some serious questions about the practice, although my doubts are probably the reverse of what is expected. I like to consider myself somewhat of a realist. I believe in what i can see, smell, taste...prove. When i first began studying ceremonial magick, i was under the impression that it was something generated from the unconscious mind. The whole Jungian theory of Collective Unconscious, or perhaps reaching something hidden away in your subconscious. I guess i kind of figured that it would be something kind of lucid, like hypnosis or guided meditation. However, after the events that transpired I find myself starting to find myself really starting to believe in the existence of these entities in a real way, not just a thought or a dream, but something more solid. The experience just seemed to be too vivid, too real to doubt.
Any thoughts or opinions?"
It’s hard to answer this question outside of a broader, theoretical construct. Hermetic philosophy postulates that the broader universe has, within the consciousness of each human, a smaller reflection of that whole. This is akin to the modern concept of the Holographic Universe, because, in a hologram, each bit is a full reflection of the entire hologram.
This microcosm relates to the macrocosm through resonance. So, when one constellates an archetype, to use the Jungian term, a subjective aspect enters into consciousness, but, one also touches on a transpersonal aspect. It is ‘real’ although in its ‘objective mode’ it is actually a matrix of consciousness and energy alone. This has no form (which is an aspect of the cube of space). The ‘form’ as the medium or magician perceives it is the subjective aspect which is a projection.
A similar way to look at this is through this analogy: The Universe is a great and endless ocean filled with many creatures. Each person is an island of ego consciousness (which is really a part of the ocean but just thinks it is distinct) with a lagoon in the middle of the island. This lagoon, or subconscious, has in it creatures similar to those in the broader ocean although, perhaps, in different numbers and types. But, sometimes things can swim into the lagoon or maybe things may swim out and be connected with that broader world.
This is how look at it, anyway!
"I recently performed my first evocation, and am starting to have some serious questions about the practice, although my doubts are probably the reverse of what is expected. I like to consider myself somewhat of a realist. I believe in what i can see, smell, taste...prove. When i first began studying ceremonial magick, i was under the impression that it was something generated from the unconscious mind. The whole Jungian theory of Collective Unconscious, or perhaps reaching something hidden away in your subconscious. I guess i kind of figured that it would be something kind of lucid, like hypnosis or guided meditation. However, after the events that transpired I find myself starting to find myself really starting to believe in the existence of these entities in a real way, not just a thought or a dream, but something more solid. The experience just seemed to be too vivid, too real to doubt.
Any thoughts or opinions?"
It’s hard to answer this question outside of a broader, theoretical construct. Hermetic philosophy postulates that the broader universe has, within the consciousness of each human, a smaller reflection of that whole. This is akin to the modern concept of the Holographic Universe, because, in a hologram, each bit is a full reflection of the entire hologram.
This microcosm relates to the macrocosm through resonance. So, when one constellates an archetype, to use the Jungian term, a subjective aspect enters into consciousness, but, one also touches on a transpersonal aspect. It is ‘real’ although in its ‘objective mode’ it is actually a matrix of consciousness and energy alone. This has no form (which is an aspect of the cube of space). The ‘form’ as the medium or magician perceives it is the subjective aspect which is a projection.
A similar way to look at this is through this analogy: The Universe is a great and endless ocean filled with many creatures. Each person is an island of ego consciousness (which is really a part of the ocean but just thinks it is distinct) with a lagoon in the middle of the island. This lagoon, or subconscious, has in it creatures similar to those in the broader ocean although, perhaps, in different numbers and types. But, sometimes things can swim into the lagoon or maybe things may swim out and be connected with that broader world.
This is how look at it, anyway!
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DawningSun777
Re: Are they real?
Well I am 5 years late haha
The way I see it, no matter how strong an experience like this (invocation) is it does not warrant being called "real" in the objective sense. That is, you are still experiencing something created by your own mind. Think about it; people of all religions, even contradictory ones, tend to have experiences like this that are so powerful it seems they absolutely must be real. Obviously, as pointed out, there is contradiction. A is A, even in spiritual experience, contradictions violate this. However, I think that subjective deities, entities, etc are still "real" in a sense. During magick and such you are certainly experiencing something real, even if it is a change in brain chemistry as opposed to being contacted by an external entity.
The way I see it, no matter how strong an experience like this (invocation) is it does not warrant being called "real" in the objective sense. That is, you are still experiencing something created by your own mind. Think about it; people of all religions, even contradictory ones, tend to have experiences like this that are so powerful it seems they absolutely must be real. Obviously, as pointed out, there is contradiction. A is A, even in spiritual experience, contradictions violate this. However, I think that subjective deities, entities, etc are still "real" in a sense. During magick and such you are certainly experiencing something real, even if it is a change in brain chemistry as opposed to being contacted by an external entity.