Original post: Noxlux
[QUOTE=Grab]Check out page 2 in the goetia-pdf - michael inside triangle, "god" outside the triangle. Check out Kraig or Konstantinos too. Konstantinos writes "The name of the Archangel of Fire, Michael, along with three Divine Names are written inside the Triangle of the Art." Not that he is any authority whatsoever...
/Grab[/QUOTE]
Yup, you are totally right. (Now Kraig I do not have but nevermind)
I have always taken the black circle to be the area left without angelic energies for the demon to feel at home in.
And when I draw a triangle of my own I will always have, like I mentioned, the names in the border of the triangle.
How I arrived at this interpretation I have no idea. Does anybody know offhand if Bardon or Crowley proposes this way? Or anyone else for that matter?
nox
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Original post: John S. Brackett
I am a Hermetic magician and have worked with the Goetia for about 4 years. One of the demons that I summon on a regular basis is Orobas. This demon works out well most of the time when I need help in financial matters. For example, once when I needed some money despretely, I evoked Orobas and within 2 weeks I received some money from an unexpected source, not a lot of money but enough to get me through the crisis.
I must say that the Goetia (the one translated by Mathers with a contribution by Aleister Crowley) is a well written book, but I mostly work with the book "Solomon's Magic" by Carroll Poke Runyon. This book follows the tradition of using a black mirror inside the Triangle of Art and viewing demons in the mirror by facial distortion. I must admit that you will rather feel the demons' presence more than see them, except for fleeting glimpses of frightening proportions.
I haven't had any problems with after effects of using the Goetia like a few people I'd heard about such as nightmares, paranoia, seeing menancing shadows, and feeling a frightening atmosphere. I attribute my success to using the Golden Dawn's banishing rituals and praying to God and Jesus for protection before and after the rituals.
My advise to you is to use the Goetia only if you think you can handle it, otherwise leave it alone.
I am a Hermetic magician and have worked with the Goetia for about 4 years. One of the demons that I summon on a regular basis is Orobas. This demon works out well most of the time when I need help in financial matters. For example, once when I needed some money despretely, I evoked Orobas and within 2 weeks I received some money from an unexpected source, not a lot of money but enough to get me through the crisis.
I must say that the Goetia (the one translated by Mathers with a contribution by Aleister Crowley) is a well written book, but I mostly work with the book "Solomon's Magic" by Carroll Poke Runyon. This book follows the tradition of using a black mirror inside the Triangle of Art and viewing demons in the mirror by facial distortion. I must admit that you will rather feel the demons' presence more than see them, except for fleeting glimpses of frightening proportions.
I haven't had any problems with after effects of using the Goetia like a few people I'd heard about such as nightmares, paranoia, seeing menancing shadows, and feeling a frightening atmosphere. I attribute my success to using the Golden Dawn's banishing rituals and praying to God and Jesus for protection before and after the rituals.
My advise to you is to use the Goetia only if you think you can handle it, otherwise leave it alone.
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Original post: Grab
[QUOTE=Noxlux]Does anybody know offhand if Bardon or Crowley proposes this way? Or anyone else for that matter?[/QUOTE]
Good question, because it made me take out the books again!
Crowley edited the Goetia, so let's assume that he agrees with the triangle shown there.
Bardon's book 2 doesn't deal with Goetia-like spirits, so I don't see any reason to bind them with Michael. Bardon basically states that the more one knows about the symbology of the number 3, the stronger the evocation will be. The number 3 is the symbol of manifestation, Saturnic powers, the holy whore and the Trinity of the religions (such as Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva). No angelic stuff.
/Grab
[QUOTE=Noxlux]Does anybody know offhand if Bardon or Crowley proposes this way? Or anyone else for that matter?[/QUOTE]
Good question, because it made me take out the books again!
Crowley edited the Goetia, so let's assume that he agrees with the triangle shown there.
Bardon's book 2 doesn't deal with Goetia-like spirits, so I don't see any reason to bind them with Michael. Bardon basically states that the more one knows about the symbology of the number 3, the stronger the evocation will be. The number 3 is the symbol of manifestation, Saturnic powers, the holy whore and the Trinity of the religions (such as Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva). No angelic stuff.
/Grab
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Original post: John S. Brackett
Under no circumstances should any magician make any pacts with demons. When the magician stands in the protective circle he or she is magically standing in the center of the universe and if he or she prays correctly becomes God's representative, like Jesus was, (or as some magicians say the magician assumes the creator's form which makes the magician God itself--called assuming God forms). Because the magician is God's representative (or as some magician assume, becomes God), he or she commands the demons to do what the magician desires; in effect, demons are servants of the magician, so making pacts is unneccessary. Making pacts with demons also weakens the will of the magician, because it is the will is what makes magical things happen. If the magician thinks he has to make pacts with demons to affect change, then his or her will is weak or becomes weakened. The magician commands demons to affect changes, and if the demons refuse the magician's commands, then they are punished by the magician by a variety of techniques too numerous to list here.
Under no circumstances should any magician make any pacts with demons. When the magician stands in the protective circle he or she is magically standing in the center of the universe and if he or she prays correctly becomes God's representative, like Jesus was, (or as some magicians say the magician assumes the creator's form which makes the magician God itself--called assuming God forms). Because the magician is God's representative (or as some magician assume, becomes God), he or she commands the demons to do what the magician desires; in effect, demons are servants of the magician, so making pacts is unneccessary. Making pacts with demons also weakens the will of the magician, because it is the will is what makes magical things happen. If the magician thinks he has to make pacts with demons to affect change, then his or her will is weak or becomes weakened. The magician commands demons to affect changes, and if the demons refuse the magician's commands, then they are punished by the magician by a variety of techniques too numerous to list here.
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Original post: John S. Brackett
A magician must understand the psyche of demons in order to properly control them. Demons are first and foremost stupid. They have tremendous egos. They are evil and cannot comprehend goodness. A magician does not have to be mean when it comes to punishing demons, but he must be firm with them. There are different ways to punish demons, most of these techniques relate to ego crushing procedures. For example, threatening to burn their sigil is effective because demons see their sigils as an extension of themselves. Telling them that you will ignore them for eternity is effective because demons crave human's attention. Also threatening to lessen their status by conversing with other magicians about their ineptness is effective. In other Grimores there are other just as effective techniques. If you surround yourself with the protection of God and Jesus, demons can not hurt you. However, people who are emotionally and mentally insecure should not mess around with the Goetia or other demon books, because, although demons are stupid, they will know when the magician feels fear and they will use that fear against the magician. Jesus is a good example when it comes to a magician controlling demons. He always commanded demons, never bargained with them. When he exorcised the demons "Legion" he felt compassion for them and honored their requests to be sent into swine. Yet because the demons were stupid, they did not foresee the pigs reaction to their presence. Remember the swine jumped off the cliff to rid themselves of the evil beings. My advice to you is not to mess with the Goetia or other demon grimores unless you are under the tutelage of a more experienced magician, or until you have a lot of practice performing meditations and banishing exercises, prayer is a GREAT defense too.
A magician must understand the psyche of demons in order to properly control them. Demons are first and foremost stupid. They have tremendous egos. They are evil and cannot comprehend goodness. A magician does not have to be mean when it comes to punishing demons, but he must be firm with them. There are different ways to punish demons, most of these techniques relate to ego crushing procedures. For example, threatening to burn their sigil is effective because demons see their sigils as an extension of themselves. Telling them that you will ignore them for eternity is effective because demons crave human's attention. Also threatening to lessen their status by conversing with other magicians about their ineptness is effective. In other Grimores there are other just as effective techniques. If you surround yourself with the protection of God and Jesus, demons can not hurt you. However, people who are emotionally and mentally insecure should not mess around with the Goetia or other demon books, because, although demons are stupid, they will know when the magician feels fear and they will use that fear against the magician. Jesus is a good example when it comes to a magician controlling demons. He always commanded demons, never bargained with them. When he exorcised the demons "Legion" he felt compassion for them and honored their requests to be sent into swine. Yet because the demons were stupid, they did not foresee the pigs reaction to their presence. Remember the swine jumped off the cliff to rid themselves of the evil beings. My advice to you is not to mess with the Goetia or other demon grimores unless you are under the tutelage of a more experienced magician, or until you have a lot of practice performing meditations and banishing exercises, prayer is a GREAT defense too.
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Original post: Noxlux
[QUOTE=YupThisAlex]i think that i will just wait until my package comes and go from there. i did already pay for it so why waste my time getting materials myself and everything. but i did d/l that book from the cm library and i will read it when i come back from vacation.[/QUOTE]
I hope, if it be permissible, to read of your exploits.
[QUOTE=Grab]Good question, because it made me take out the books again!
Crowley edited the Goetia, so let's assume that he agrees with the triangle shown there.
/Grab[/QUOTE]
I was more thinking along the lines of his writing in book 4, part II, which I at the moment do not have access to.
[QUOTE=John S. Brackett]Also threatening to lessen their status by conversing with other magicians about their ineptness is effective. [/QUOTE]
:-) Brilliant!
[QUOTE=YupThisAlex]What are some ways to punish the demon? Cant they just kill you if you disrespect them?[/QUOTE]
I don't want to understate the dangers involved, yet I do not think that is particularly common. In fact I do not recall reading about a single case of magickian killed during ritual by angry demon.
[QUOTE=YupThisAlex]i think that i will just wait until my package comes and go from there. i did already pay for it so why waste my time getting materials myself and everything. but i did d/l that book from the cm library and i will read it when i come back from vacation.[/QUOTE]
I hope, if it be permissible, to read of your exploits.
[QUOTE=Grab]Good question, because it made me take out the books again!
Crowley edited the Goetia, so let's assume that he agrees with the triangle shown there.
/Grab[/QUOTE]
I was more thinking along the lines of his writing in book 4, part II, which I at the moment do not have access to.
[QUOTE=John S. Brackett]Also threatening to lessen their status by conversing with other magicians about their ineptness is effective. [/QUOTE]
:-) Brilliant!
[QUOTE=YupThisAlex]What are some ways to punish the demon? Cant they just kill you if you disrespect them?[/QUOTE]
I don't want to understate the dangers involved, yet I do not think that is particularly common. In fact I do not recall reading about a single case of magickian killed during ritual by angry demon.
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Original post: Grab
/Grab
I checked before my previous post, but there is nothing written about triangles in Liber 4/II, so I forgot to comment about it.Noxlux wrote:I was more thinking along the lines of his writing in book 4, part II, which I at the moment do not have access to.
I read something about someone who woke up about half an hour later, with scratch marks and what not, after invoking some goetia demon.In fact I do not recall reading about a single case of magickian killed during ritual by angry demon.
/Grab
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Original post: Gryzlgreedigutt
If you go into the ritual thinking you can be killed you are going to give a lot of power to that entity. i myself only proceed with the certain knowledge that an entity would not DARE, and also with respect for the entity. Mutual respect between two divine beings has never failed me as an approach. Even if they are "evil". Entities, smell fear. Remember however that a case of the creeps before and during the ritual is ok and perfectly normal. But you must rise above! People give lots of warning for Goetic entities with second and third person accounts of what may or may not have happened to some random faceless nameless mage during a ritual after pissing off a demon. But IMO if you get your ass thrown around the room you had no idea what you were getting into and you probably had it cxoming. Demons don't like to be messed with anymore then we do.
If you go into the ritual thinking you can be killed you are going to give a lot of power to that entity. i myself only proceed with the certain knowledge that an entity would not DARE, and also with respect for the entity. Mutual respect between two divine beings has never failed me as an approach. Even if they are "evil". Entities, smell fear. Remember however that a case of the creeps before and during the ritual is ok and perfectly normal. But you must rise above! People give lots of warning for Goetic entities with second and third person accounts of what may or may not have happened to some random faceless nameless mage during a ritual after pissing off a demon. But IMO if you get your ass thrown around the room you had no idea what you were getting into and you probably had it cxoming. Demons don't like to be messed with anymore then we do.
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Original post: John S. Brackett
[QUOTE=Gryzlgreedigutt]If you go into the ritual thinking you can be killed you are going to give a lot of power to that entity. i myself only proceed with the certain knowledge that an entity would not DARE, and also with respect for the entity. Mutual respect between two divine beings has never failed me as an approach. Even if they are "evil". Entities, smell fear. Remember however that a case of the creeps before and during the ritual is ok and perfectly normal. But you must rise above! People give lots of warning for Goetic entities with second and third person accounts of what may or may not have happened to some random faceless nameless mage during a ritual after pissing off a demon. But IMO if you get your ass thrown around the room you had no idea what you were getting into and you probably had it cxoming. Demons don't like to be messed with anymore then we do.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you about having respect for the demon, all god's creatures deserve it even when we eat them. But you must not treat the demon as an equal. It is not your equal. It is a smelly, stupid, egotistical, evil being. Jesus (who is perhaps one of the greatest magicians) understood this when he exorcised demons. If the demon ends up throwing the magician around the room, it is time for the magician to run like hell and find a different occupation.
[QUOTE=Gryzlgreedigutt]If you go into the ritual thinking you can be killed you are going to give a lot of power to that entity. i myself only proceed with the certain knowledge that an entity would not DARE, and also with respect for the entity. Mutual respect between two divine beings has never failed me as an approach. Even if they are "evil". Entities, smell fear. Remember however that a case of the creeps before and during the ritual is ok and perfectly normal. But you must rise above! People give lots of warning for Goetic entities with second and third person accounts of what may or may not have happened to some random faceless nameless mage during a ritual after pissing off a demon. But IMO if you get your ass thrown around the room you had no idea what you were getting into and you probably had it cxoming. Demons don't like to be messed with anymore then we do.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you about having respect for the demon, all god's creatures deserve it even when we eat them. But you must not treat the demon as an equal. It is not your equal. It is a smelly, stupid, egotistical, evil being. Jesus (who is perhaps one of the greatest magicians) understood this when he exorcised demons. If the demon ends up throwing the magician around the room, it is time for the magician to run like hell and find a different occupation.
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Original post: Noxlux
[QUOTE=John S. Brackett]I agree with you about having respect for the demon, all god's creatures deserve it even when we eat them. But you must not treat the demon as an equal. It is not your equal. It is a smelly, stupid, egotistical, evil being. Jesus (who is perhaps one of the greatest magicians) understood this when he exorcised demons. If the demon ends up throwing the magician around the room, it is time for the magician to run like hell and find a different occupation.[/QUOTE]
I find them some of them to posess enormous intelligence.
[QUOTE=John S. Brackett]I agree with you about having respect for the demon, all god's creatures deserve it even when we eat them. But you must not treat the demon as an equal. It is not your equal. It is a smelly, stupid, egotistical, evil being. Jesus (who is perhaps one of the greatest magicians) understood this when he exorcised demons. If the demon ends up throwing the magician around the room, it is time for the magician to run like hell and find a different occupation.[/QUOTE]
I find them some of them to posess enormous intelligence.
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Original post: Grab
[QUOTE=John S. Brackett]If the demon ends up throwing the magician around the room, it is time for the magician to run like hell and find a different occupation.[/QUOTE]Please note that I wrote invoke, not evoke. It was an experiment on behalf of that magician, "what will happen if I give up all control..."
Pretty wild and cool, IMHO.
/Grab
[QUOTE=John S. Brackett]If the demon ends up throwing the magician around the room, it is time for the magician to run like hell and find a different occupation.[/QUOTE]Please note that I wrote invoke, not evoke. It was an experiment on behalf of that magician, "what will happen if I give up all control..."
Pretty wild and cool, IMHO.
/Grab
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Original post: Grab
[QUOTE=Noxlux]I find them some of them to posess enormous intelligence.[/QUOTE]
I would love to read about someone trying to play a game, like chess, or whatever, with a demon! So cool!
[QUOTE=Noxlux]I find them some of them to posess enormous intelligence.[/QUOTE]
I would love to read about someone trying to play a game, like chess, or whatever, with a demon! So cool!
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Original post: Gryzlgreedigutt
I always treat an evoked entity with respect. Its just polite. As far as treating them as an equal thats all I mean. I'm polite. I venture treating them like nasty little things you can eat will not get you as far with them as me. what if the roles were reversed? Think about it.
I always treat an evoked entity with respect. Its just polite. As far as treating them as an equal thats all I mean. I'm polite. I venture treating them like nasty little things you can eat will not get you as far with them as me. what if the roles were reversed? Think about it.