Marduk and Jesus

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Spartra16

Well, again im forced to say this.
Jesus isn't based off anyone, he didn't steal anyones ideas and the similarities are simply just similarities...Its a big world.

Jesus was a Liberal Jewish Rabbi.
Nuff said

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: TelecultPower

MathewK, Lovecraft does indeed write about Marduk so I guess that part

Actually, you're totally wrong again. Marduk was never written about by Lovecraft. And he does not correspond to Mars. In the planetary system of correspondence from Sumer and Babylon the god of war, or Mars, was Nergal. Marduk was given the sphere of Jupiter. He's a Jovian god, you might say a Babylonian Zeus.

I'm actually misinformed? I can give you some interesting links.

Nimrod, Marduk and the Mars connection :
http://ldolphin.org/Nimrod.html

(or you can google Marduk and Mars)

As far as Lovecraft (the most popular Necronomicon used) you can check out :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AndyJ ... ar_culture

There is this part in here :

In H.P. Lovecraft's Necronomicon, Marduk is included various times and is stated as the 1st of the 50 Names. Also references to other Babylonian gods such as Tiamat are made.

So I guess I should ignore this part?

thus your repeated posts are doing nothing but showing how little you actually know about any religion except Christianity.

I didn't know Necronomicon was a religion? I actually love Babylonian God's and have the Cicero's work on it including the Babylonian tarot. I'm not actually Christian and study a variety of religions. Perhaps it is you who needs to familiarize yourself with Lovecraft?

I simply believe that Christ is Metatron. I have several references to believe so including The Occult Christ by Ted Andrews (http://www.dragonhawkpublishing.com) and Qabalatic texts that express that theory. If that theory is correct and the Christ energy was manifested through Metatron the real question is could Marduk (Simon's Neconomicon or otherwise) take Metatron (outside of the passive Christ role of compassion and love).

Metatron : http://www.sanandaseagles.com/gai/pages/metatron.html

"In noncanonical writings, Metatron is perhaps the greatest of all the heavenly hierarchs, the 1st (as also the last) of the 10 archangels of the Briatic world. He has been called king of angels, prince of the divine face or presence, chancellor of Heaven, angel of the covenant, chief of the ministering angels, and the lesser YHWH (the tetragrammaton). He is charged with the sustenance of mankind. In Talmud and Targum, Metatron is the like between the human and the divine. I his earthly incarnation he was the patriarch Enoch - although Tanhuna Genesis claims he was originally Michael. " A Dictionary of Angels: Including the Fallen Angels by Gustav Davidson.

Metatron is said to reside in the 7th Heaven, which is the dwelling place of God. When metatron appears, his appearance is that of "a pillar of fire, his face more dazzling than the sun." Metatron is the angel who led the children of Israel through the wilderness after Moses took them out of Egypt. Metatron is said to be the tallest angel in Heaven, with the exception of Anafiel. It is said in the Zohar that Metatrons height is "equal to the breadth of the whole world." While Metatron was still Enoch and arrived in Heaven, it is said that he was transformed into a spirit of fire and given 36 pairs of wings along with innumerable eyes. It is said that Metatron sits upon the throne that sits next to the divine throne. Metatron is the supreme angel of death. After being given the list of souls to be taken that day, Metatron mites out that list to Gabriel and Sammael. Metatron is the angel that governs the Tree of Life, and the teachings of the Kabbalah. Metatron is the "Angel of the Presence, World-Prince, archangel associated with Kether. According to some, the Briatic manifestation of Chokmah and the active principle of the Shekinah." Godwin's Cabalistic Encyclopedia by David Godwin

Ok so 36 pairs of wings, second in command to God, perhaps Enoch and equal to the breadth of the whole world. Coming from the talimud and ancient texts equal to where you read of Babylon in biblical texts lets see his stats compared to

Marduk. : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marduk

Marduk's original character is obscure but he was later on connected with water, vegetation, judgment, and magic.[2] He was also regarded as the son of Ea (Sumerian Enki) and the heir of Anu, but whatever special traits Marduk may have had were overshadowed by the political development through which the Euphrates valley passed and which led to imbuing him with traits belonging to gods who at an earlier period were recognized as the heads of the pantheon. There are particularly two godsâ??Ea and Enlilâ??whose powers and attributes pass over to Marduk. In the case of Ea, the transfer proceeded pacifically and without effacing the older god. Marduk took over the identity of Asarluhi, the son of Ea and god of magic, so that Marduk was integrated in the pantheon of Eridu where both Ea and Asarluhi original came from.

Or you can go by Simon's description....(fiction)

Thus leading Me to give the title over to Christ/Metatron!!

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: MatthewK

Tele, a great deal of the info you linked is given from the perspective that the Christian holy bible is canon, a scientific document of fact. While tent-dwellers in the desert were crouched down around tablets considering that the earth was about 2,000 years old and writing the basis of what would later become "the holy bible", they had no idea of the aeons this planet really had existed at that time.

Secondly, the Lovecraft Wiki quote is inaccurate. I re-state: The Simon Necronomicon which is centered around Marduk and six other zonei was not written by Lovecraft and has nothing to do with him, as he never wrote about any of the forces found within the Simon Necronomicon.

Name one single story written by Howard Phillips Lovecraft where Marduk is introduced as a fictional character (which is what you originally stated in your first post in this thread) and I will admit error on my own part; that is, error in not being conversant with the particular story in which Lovecraft mentioned Marduk.

If you read that link you posted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marduk), it also states towards the bottom under "Astrology" that Marduk was associated with the planet Jupiter. This is a matter for astrologists to explain, but as a Christian who reads the Bible as a history book and law book you yourself will not accept this information as factual, so I'm not going to try to convince you. Marduk's recorded actions throughout Enuma Elish and other Babylonian documents shows him as a Zeus-like god, and Zeus was also associated with Jupiter. Any attempts to connect Marduk to Mars, Nergal, Sekhet or any other war-god came about due to the Christian perception, and Marduk is not the only example: Christianity has a history of attempting to describe every god other than its own as a warlike, malevolent and essentially evil god. Meanwhile, the Old Testament does a fine job of describing Jehovah as vengeful, jealous and angry. The New Testament, however, is full of love and light, birds chirping in trees and fluffy white clouds sailing across bright blue skies. Pour quoi?

You're going in circles by posting links to articles (mostly based on Samuel Noah Kramer's work) that actually affirm what I've written about Marduk so far. One cannot accept the Biblical account of Marduk as accurate because it came about thousands of years after Marduk was the center of worship in the cradle of civilization. By that same token Genesis has the Christian god creating man, and then the animals, and then man naming them one and all: archaeological evidence shows that dinosaurs predated man by several epochs of change - DRASTIC change - on this planet. No Christian has ever been able to explain this inconsistency, and that in and of itself is a nail in the coffin for the theory that the holy bible is a reliable source of information for anything predating the time of Christ - and I might add that every account within the bible of events occuring during and after the time of Christ are colored by the percept that the Christian god is the only "good", "benevolent" and "proper" god. That all other gods are evil. That worshipping them is forbidden.

But then it contradicts itself by stating that Jehovah says, at several points, that he is the ONLY god. So there's another popular inconsistency for you to mull over.

The Bible is not a reliable source of anything except for inspiration and guidance for worshipping the god of Christianity. That much is factual. Your god is available in its every page; indeed, his word (rather, the words of those inspired by him) fills a handsome volume with hundreds of pages. The Bible is a guide to worshipping your Christian god - NOT a source of factual information about any other gods.

TelecultPower, I appeal to your Christian nature in saying that I wish you the best in communion with your god, that he guide you true and that you find peace in his presence, that his wisdom helps you stay on what you feel is the correct path for your life. Use the Bible to worship your god and steer your life in the direction you want it to go.

But you cannot use the Bible for accurate, factual information about anything except how to worship the Christian god. This does NOT devalue the worth of the text in my eyes. Whatever empowers you is POSITIVE, GOOD and JUST. End of story. Use the book to empower yourself and learn to become closer to your god
- not to deride the belief systems of others (even if they happen to pre-date your own and contradict what your book of worship tells you).

Anathema_Oracle: my position is that most of the Necronomicons are indeed made up - mostly fiction - and assembled with a little bit of chaos magick, Enochiana, and simple fiction (which Jung could have a field day explaining the implications of). In the end they are either for entertainment or to be put to great use by the chaos mage who dares harness powers which may or may not be useful.

Of the many Necronomicons, one exception to the rule of them being fictional remains.

The contents of the Simon Necronomicon are culled from various sources which Simon himself cites in "Suggested Reading" at the beginning of the book, including Limnuti texts, Maqlu texts, Chaldean Oracles of Zoroaster, Reports of the Ancient Astrologers of Babylon and Nineveh, etc. In a sense it is the closest thing to a guide to discovering the world of Babylonian, Akkadian, Assyrian, and Sumerian religion as it may have existed during those respective eras that the occultist could hope to have.

It is not 100% accurate. It is not as old as it claims, but a great deal of the information assembled within it is of legitimate origin. I've spent a very long time skeptically researching the contents of the Simon Necronomicon, and the deeper you look, the more you immerse yourself in it, the more you will find that while it is an incomplete system that's not meant to be taken as a complete grimoire, it is all based upon previously existing documents, rituals, practises and belief systems that are tied together by Mesopotamian sources.

This matter becomes self-evident if you are willing to put forth the effort to track down the suggested reading list Simon offers, to read Samuel Noah Kramer's works, and to read basically anything else you can get your hands on that's written about Mesopotamia from the perspective of an unbiased, scientific examination of its available remaining artifacts.

And apart from that regardless of how badly the information may have been put together, how accurate some of the translations are, how tasteful or amateurish some of the text may have been once translated into English to be palatable to a wider audience, the magick of this system works, and it works without insulting, deriding, or otherwise ridiculing ANY other belief system.

I defend my position thusly and refuse to insult the religion of another. I will not hesitate to point out someone else's error, however, when making such a statement as "Marduk is a fictional character from HP Love crafts type writer." Which I translate (:eh:) to mean "H.P. Lovecraft or another similar author of fiction created Marduk."

Who obviously existed several thousand years before H.P. Lovecraft (or another similar author). Again, PAX! I'm trying to defend my own point of view without attacking everyone else's, without citing my own system of belief as evidence that "yours is wrong, and yours is wrong, and yours is evil, and my god is better than your god".

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: TelecultPower

MatthewK,

I must certainly admire your tenacity and polite ways of defending your ideas with intellect and substance. I see your point of how my comment comes off insulting to Marduk, however when I think of the ancient Babylonian being "Merodach" I respect him and when I hear "Marduk" I associate it with the coined name for Lovecraft's Marduk which is so popularized in the occult circles by Necronomicon fans and most of their history on him comes from this. I stand by my point of Simon's Nec. being fiction but I see these two name differences as wild as Santa Clause and St. Nick to the real entity. Catholics pray to St. Nicholas for the needy and American children write letters to Santa Clause for Nintendo Wii's with a bic pen. As you know Marduk is also Merodach in a sense of the name for sure so cheers to that mate, we're cool. hehe

That was fun though wasn't it?

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Rena_Logn

Stretching Jesus to Marduk would be a feat that a contortionist would be in awe of. There's not much similarity between them at all. Marduk has much more in common with Ninurta or Enlil, who were Sumerian gods (same region, older time period). The all powerful hero types who'd crush skulls and ask questions... never. I remember reading somewhere that an early version of the Enuma Elish actually had Enlil as the main character, but I've never been able to find the actual text to confirm this.

The only Mesopotamian deity who most closely resembled Jesus was actually a woman. Enki's daughter, Nanshe. She was the goddess of social justice, meant to give aid to those in need - widows, orphans, debt slaves, the infirm, so on. She'd handle disputes on New Year's and determine which people were just and which needed to be punished.

Her symbols were both the fish and pelican - both later attributed to Jesus - and she also cleansed her visitors in a river (this might be a slight mistranslation, however, as her brother's name could be translated as 'river of ordeal'). She also apparently had her priests conduct a ritual of death and rebirth, but... she was never a rebirth kind of deity, so the resurrection kind of stuff may not apply to her directly. Granted, lots of Sumerian tablets remain undiscovered, so maybe she was a rebirth goddess at some point. Who knows.

I suppose you could link Jesus and Enki for some things, but... really, Jesus did come along much later than any of these other gods. So similarities will be very vague at best. Nanshe would have been barely remembered by the time the Old Testament was written, for example.


But Marduk? Nah. Not unless Jesus actively wandered around crushing skulls.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Thodin

May Cuth,ullu eat and stick his ancient tenticals up christ the usserper Ass and eat Jehova not the original YHVH wich is only word and letters not translations from monkeys who can not understand the original prime mortals gods and understanding of such knowlage.THODIN

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: TelecultPower

If Christ is like anyone it would be Osiris

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Marquise De Sade

Matt you wrote an awesome post! Thanks for that.

Thodin:

How freaking old are you man? You have contributed the least to this thead.

Anyway I always thought that Jesus was more like Inanna or Enki. But i guess every religion needs a savior. Something else many world religions agree on is a flood. Ducalion for the greeks, can't remember the sumerian version, and Noah for the Hebrews.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Qryztufre

I can see the connection between Jesus and Marduk, as it was Marduk that did strive for a more monotheistic approach to his temples.

Which of course would place sort of a god/enki connection, as it always seemed to be Enki pulling the strings...

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Thodin

To answer mr De Sade old!Also nice use of the necromicon seal as to your photo avatar.THODIN

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: MatthewK

Thanks, everyone, for the kind words - and for having taken the time to consider what I wrote. Even if you don't follow the path yourself.

In short, Marduk is Marduk, Jesus is Jesus, Enki is Enki; while one may say gods of one culture may correspond to an earlier culture... really the best way to draw a parallel is in the mythology surrounding that god rather than to draw parallels between those gods themselves.

For example, Inanna descending to the underworld and being slain for three days and rising again is very similar to many other resurrection stories (including that of Christ). This is in no way a slight to Christ, who I do not worship, but rather my pointing out an apparent correlation between the stories surrounding the two. Inanna is my goddess, and in her deeds of the past I see that many other gods and goddesses have followed her.

Perhaps as a way of attaining similar powers or dominion of influence like as unto her - who can know for sure that the gods do not emulate one another to become more powerful? Allegorically speaking, this is an interesting concept, and if I weren't on drugs right now I'd probably look into it further.

Examining the beliefs of ancient Sumer, one finds not only an analogue to other religions / gods / practises from civilizations that arose after Mesopotamia but also within the Necronomicon itself: Inanna did, after all, pass through seven gates, and in order to do so she had to lose some of the substances of her earthly existence. She was stripped of the earthly symbols of her "ego", one by one, as she passed through each gate.

It is said Gatewalking within the Simon Necronomicon accomplishes a similar goal, that of gaining understanding of or communion with one's higher self as you ascend, and then descend, within the seven gates.

This is why when one finishes the ritual of walking a Gate (again, as found in the Simon Necronomicon) it is advised to recite this part of the Magan Text, the part concerned with Inanna's three days dead on the stake. It solidifies the experience in the magickian or priest's psychology, the Gate begins to manifest itself within the walker even as the walker did manfiest him or herself within that Gate before.

By the way, when Inanna arose, it was because Enki heard of her fate and sent two elementals to aid her with some of the essential powers of life which he does possess.

The number '7' is also of importance in many belief systems. For more insight into this I suggest the interested reader search Google for Daoist practises related to the Celestial Gate and the afterlife, or if you're conversant with the sephira you could do some independent study on the Zonei and find the philosophical correspondences therein. Another good source of information is in the Egyptian book of the Gates to the Underworld, Am Tuat, as well as the Opening of the Mouth ritual and the celestial correspondences in the stories of Set and Osiris.

In closing, to draw our attention away from similarities between Mesopotamian priesthood and Christian faith, let us examine Enki a bit further.

Enki gave unto his brother the rulership that was rightfully his: Enlil is the king of our earthly domain while Enki, though his name may mean "King of the Earth", rules from Abzu, the waters between our earthly realm and the realm of the underworld Irkalla, or Kur (verily, whatever one chooses to call it, this is the domain of Ereshkigal, the Queen of the underworld and the ruler of the dead).

There is no solid correspondence here to Christianity either, I wouldn't liken Enki unto anyone except for Enki (although when using tables of correspondence I've found the sphere of Neptune resounds quite nicely with Enki - resonances with other ancient beliefs abound when discussing Sumer, Babylon, Assyria, etc).

The relationship between my goddess Inanna, her sister Ereshkigal, Nammtar, Nergal, Tammuz/Dumuzi, and Ninshubur can be examined and understood as an analogue also to the story of Persephone, who went to Hades and is only allowed out during certain times. Tammuz/Dumuzi, old beloved of Inanna, must take Inanna's place in the underworld for half of the year...

synchronicities abound.

This can be seen symbolically also as winter and fall, masculine power, and sterility versus the time of spring and summer, birth and blooming and growth: feminine aspects, the goddess returns from the underworld in the sign of Taurus, the Bull of Set or Menthu tied to a stake.

Which is a bit like Ursa Major (the Big Dipper, called the Great Bull by Egyptians, a parallel being thus drawn to Set's appearance in the stars as a great Bull tethered to a stake: Set was associated with this asterism)... Ursa Major, the Great Bull, the Plough, the Big Dipper, revolving around the star Polaris throughout the seasons of the year. The pole star. The pole to which Set was tied.

The "Pole Star", or the Maypole; Beltane celebrations come to mind here.

There are many other correspondences...

all of which may lead to a greater understanding of exactly which symbols common to all religions are important and which are cultural anomalies, specific to era, custom, and the respective time period to which they belong.

That's all I have to say right now... know that more knowledge can be found in the writings of Simon apart from his editing of the Necronomicon, that even National Geographic books about Ancient Egypt can be helpful, books like "The Chaldean Oracles of Zoroaster" and even the legend of King Arthur or Chu Chulain.

I hope some of you follow my suggestions and search to understand cultural differences and how they relate to the gods and goddesses we each may worship or pay homage to, where their stories connect and perhaps why they connect at some points and diverge completely at others. Good luck.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: TelecultPower

It was a fun conversation and very informative. Thanks for the time you put into the discussion MatthewK. Also, woah...we got Qryztufre on the thread.. it's an official classic now. He made it go platinum!! heh

Also - haha - Marquise De Sade - I know Thodin actually, he lives close to Me.
He is always calling someones God or spirit guide a usurper and refering to the Necronomicon as the good book. It is actually very funny at times the reaction he gets.

Also very interesting material here MatthewK ->

The number '7' is also of importance in many belief systems. For more insight into this I suggest the interested reader search Google for Daoist practises related to the Celestial Gate and the afterlife, or if you're conversant with the sephira you could do some independent study on the Zonei and find the philosophical correspondences therein. Another good source of information is in the Egyptian book of the Gates to the Underworld, Am Tuat, as well as the Opening of the Mouth ritual and the celestial correspondences in the stories of Set and Osiris.

Have you ever read the scientific study of the number 7 in nature and how
many times it shows up in patterns. Very divine in nature. Another Indiana Jones google adventure.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: MatthewK

[QUOTE=TelecultPower;342166]
Have you ever read the scientific study of the number 7 in nature and how
many times it shows up in patterns. Very divine in nature. Another Indiana Jones google adventure.[/QUOTE]

LOL Indiana Jones! Yes, I've noticed the number 7 crops up all over the place: superstitions, religions, magick, aspects of nature, horticulture - it's just everywhere. Amazing thing if you have a few decades to devote to studying it and nothing else, I'd bet, but even as it is now I'm fairly awed by it. That is minus spending decades on it. I've only spent a few years reading and experiencing it.

And according to the life and times of Q, with the Necronomicon being such a central issue in this thread (and with some intelligent contributions to the thread relating to that tome) it was almost a given that he would show up sooner or later

ZI QRYZTUFRE KANPA!

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: syxle

"jesus represents actions"

I think it could be more to do with the power of reason.

2c

[Occultess]

Original post: TelecultPower

Jesus = real person with documented miracles
Marduk = fictional character from HP Love crafts type writer.

Should we put money on Buddha and a character from a John Grisham novel next? heh

You clearly are not familiar with Babylonian mythology. HP Lovecraft did not create Marduk. He is a god from the Babylonian/Sumerian tradition from thousands of years ago. Heck, Marduk's son Nabu even has a temple/library in Nineveh. There are ancient relief pictures of Marduk and the other gods in that pantheon. There are relief statues as well. There are or atleast were cities named after the gods in this pantheon as well.

And then there is the Marduk Prophesy, which very much resembles the Second Coming of Christ.

[Occultess]

Original post: TelecultPower

Jesus = real person with documented miracles
Marduk = fictional character from HP Love crafts type writer.

Should we put money on Buddha and a character from a John Grisham novel next? heh

You clearly are not familiar with Babylonian mythology. HP Lovecraft did not create Marduk. He is a god from the Babylonian/Sumerian tradition from thousands of years ago. Heck, Marduk's son Nabu even has a temple/library in Nineveh. There are ancient relief pictures of Marduk and the other gods in that pantheon. There are relief statues as well. There are or atleast were cities named after the gods in this pantheon as well.

And then there is the Marduk Prophesy, which very much resembles the Second Coming of Christ.

Ok. Ok. I posted before I finished reading the whole thread.