OccultForum.org

Original post: Dunhill

So if I may paraphrase what I think is being said -
There is no direct correlation between good intent and good results.
There may be underlying alternate causes you are unaware of so you can't depend on or predict the results - only perhaps improve the odds a little.
However since it is the actual intent of the act and not the act itself, acting in a good way means nothing without good intentions just as acting in a perceived bad way meant nothing if you didn't know they were bad.

Like attracts like so to speak. If you want to be happy, make other people happy but your happiness can't be the main reason for this as the intent is what is important.

A bit off topic perhaps, but what was the initial Primal Karmic Cause (Unmoved Mover as it were) or has it been eternally cyclical?

Original post: Rin Daemoko

Dunhill wrote:So if I may paraphrase what I think is being said -
There is no direct correlation between good intent and good results.
There may be underlying alternate causes you are unaware of so you can't depend on or predict the results - only perhaps improve the odds a little.
However since it is the actual intent of the act and not the act itself, acting in a good way means nothing without good intentions just as acting in a perceived bad way meant nothing if you didn't know they were bad.

Like attracts like so to speak. If you want to be happy, make other people happy but your happiness can't be the main reason for this as the intent is what is important.

A bit off topic perhaps, but what was the initial Primal Karmic Cause (Unmoved Mover as it were) or has it been eternally cyclical?

Original post: Frater Manjet

Dunhill wrote:Like attracts like so to speak. If you want to be happy, make other people happy but your happiness can't be the main reason for this as the intent is what is important.

I won't exactly say that like attracts like as opposites also attract. I do not think in terms of attraction af these effects exactly as much as I do creating or accumulating their presence.

Picture that drawer we all have.. you know the one that collects all the useless but might come in handy sometime items, or things you don't know what they are and are afraid to dispose of for fear they may be important.

The more importance you place on these items or the more fear you have of their possible importance the more of them you will toss in that drawer. This leads to the drawer becoming increasingly full. If unchecked in an extreme example " pack rats" such as myself can end up trading in our drawer for a whole room. ( yes I had a junk room full of stuff I wouldn't throw away) Hence my environment became infused with my perception of value to what others would see as useless junk. This manifest in an ever increasing accumulation of this junk.

My perception colored my judgement...which influenced my actions... which manifest in a house full of crap.

edit: In my defense I am an artist and work in assemblage scuplture as well as many other mediums... hence my assesed value of otherwise meaningless junk.

- VVV

Original post: KCh

Karma is Inertia.

Original post: DualMetal

I wouldn't say ignorant, I would put a different aproach rather than say put a blame on what works for some... And why not stay centered in one's own belief rather than state how unuseful the other belief is, Spirituality is about building, not destroying. I personally would do some research on what karma has to offer, it can't be off the wall that one has to crittize, heh?

Original post: Dunhill

I have a (probably fairly common) question regarding the concept of infinite regression. How is this differentiated from pre-destination? I am not speaking theistically but rather from the cause and effect pov. Using the chemistry example, if you put sodium in water it will burn and there is not much the sodium can do about it.

To take a stab at answering my own question, is it that while the results may be beyond your control, the choice is still your own? It may seem contradictitory but there is free will even though the results are pre-determined. Kind of like playing three card monte - you have three cards set in value that you can choose from. The different results of your choice have already been determined, which one becomes reality rather than probability is dependent on you.

Original post: Frater Manjet

KCh wrote:Karma is Inertia

While I don't think that this is a complete summation, it is a very potent description; and so very concise. Cudos!

Dunhill wrote:I have a (probably fairly common) question regarding the concept of infinite regression. How is this differentiated from pre-destination? I am not speaking theistically but rather from the cause and effect pov. Using the chemistry example, if you put sodium in water it will burn and there is not much the sodium can do about it.

To take a stab at answering my own question, is it that while the results may be beyond your control, the choice is still your own? It may seem contradictitory but there is free will even though the results are pre-determined. Kind of like playing three card monte - you have three cards set in value that you can choose from. The different results of your choice have already been determined, which one becomes reality rather than probability is dependent on you.

Dunhill, I would love to see you give this it's own topic in Philosophy.

- VVV

Original post: Dunhill

[QUOTE=Frater Manjet]While I don't think that this is a complete summation, it is a very potent description; and so very concise. Cudos!Dunhill, I would love to see you give this it's own topic in Philosophy.

- VVV[/QUOTE]
That is the problem with these things - complete summations. Look at Summa Theologica for example. I try to put such concepts into smaller bit size pieces for easier digestion. I have found that while concepts like karma or sin may seem reasonably simple at first, the ramifications can be quite extensive an dmuch more complex.

Poke poke prod prod... I was wondering when it would get moved to the Eastern Religions section. Looks like I win. It will need a little more thought - and coffee.

Original post: Fell

[QUOTE=Dunhill]To take a stab at answering my own question, is it that while the results may be beyond your control, the choice is still your own? It may seem contradictitory but there is free will even though the results are pre-determined. Kind of like playing three card monte - you have three cards set in value that you can choose from. The different results of your choice have already been determined, which one becomes reality rather than probability is dependent on you.[/QUOTE]Are you familiar with Schrödinger's Cat?

[QUOTE=DualMetal]Spirituality is about building, not destroying. I personally would do some research on what karma has to offer, it can't be off the wall that one has to crittize, heh?[/QUOTE]Are you familiar with Tantra's destruction of the self or the alchemical "poisonous waters" as described by Julius Evola? If not, Fight Club does a swell job of exalting such ideals. Desctruction is as much a part of spirituality as creation is. The two are simply reverse sides of the same coin.

Original post: Frater Manjet

fell wrote:Are you familiar with Schrödinger's Cat?

Thank you fell,
Exactly why I would like to see this brought up in the philosophy forum!

- VVV

Original post: captaincrappy

Here is what a wise man said to me once. "Locks keep honest people honest"


And guess who the wise man was? a cop...

Original post: intangiblechaos

I think people need to study what Karma is. It's just cause in effect. You push the on button on a remote, and a television turns on.
This also plays into sociological influences, you think the choices you are making are yours; but really they are just the manifestation of the choices that have been made surrounding you since your birth. If your parents beat you black and blue, you may end up being a sociopath.
Your actions are dictated.

On a more grand scale, the more "evil" you contribute to the world the more your individual choices and actions are effecting individuals. The more individuals you effect(and the degree you effect them), the more people each of those people effect. Now depending on the person, they may also contribute "more evil" to the world. I think that's where the buddhist thing of transfering negative energy to positive comes in. When something bad happens to you, rather than taking it out on someone else, you continue acting positive.
It's sort of like a sociological butterfly effect, except you have to include all the butterflies effects, instead of just one.


Too many people consider Karma some great Divine power... but then, I suppose some schools of thought consider it that. I just always thought it odd that for someone or something that doesnt inherintley have an ego, you manage to carry "Your" Karma around with you, incarnation to incarnation. Maybe that's all part of the illusion.

Original post: Ludi

you may end up being a sociopath. Your actions are dictated.

If one's actions were dictated, one would not have the option of ending up a sociopath, it would be inevitable.

Original post: EccentricSage

[QUOTE=punxzen]

what you assert flavors your reception, and what you recieve flavors your assertion. i think that is the most concise i can describe it[/QUOTE]
Wow, that sums it up for me! You explain it a lot better than I do, so you've spared us all an essay.

Original post: EccentricSage

[QUOTE=intangiblechaos]I think people need to study what Karma is. It's just cause in effect. You push the on button on a remote, and a television turns on.
This also plays into sociological influences, you think the choices you are making are yours; but really they are just the manifestation of the choices that have been made surrounding you since your birth. If your parents beat you black and blue, you may end up being a sociopath.
Your actions are dictated. [/QUOTE]
Wrong. I've met people who've had horible childhoods and have not become sociopaths. There are also sociopaths out there who have had pretty decent childhoods. Things aren't so neat and organised. Yes, there is a system, and yes, many fit your description, but there are LOTS of wildcards in the deck. For all it's efort my environment still hasn't redused me to a simpering girl who's wish is to be a wife and mother. It also has not sucseded in forcing Christianity or any other ideology apon me. We DO have our own free will. Some just are weaker than others, and some deal with more adversity than others. Hence the reson many do allow their environment to control them.

Original post: Anathema_Oracle

Ok, but back to Karma, the issue of nurture v nature is an interesting one, and how much it jives with Karmic notions of causal relationships, only the Gods know...or do you?

If you have a good response let's hear it!

Original post: intangiblechaos

"you may end up being a sociopath. Your actions are dictated"

Thanks for bolding out the may, of course there are wildcards. which is why i said this:

"It's sort of like a sociological butterfly effect, except you have to include all the butterflies effects, instead of just one."

*EDITED*

Okay, cancel all that, i got it worked out.

Does anybody know who robert anton wilson is? He's the best known person who talks about this, so i will referance to him. Basically, one of the "meditations" he does is he sits around and thinks why he's doing whatever he's doing. Why's he reading this book, why's he doing this.
So just as a partial joke on yourself, sit around and think about why you're on this message board. It might go something like this.

I typed occult into yahoo search browser and this popped up
i was researching Occult(or insert name of practice) because a book peaked my interest
I read that book because a friend reccomended it
a friend reccomended it because when I was 14 i wrote about all kinds of crazy crap and later found it prevelent in already established religions.
the religions were established because in 1924 some artist produced some books/paintings that became of interest to people
the artist produced books/paintings because of blah blah blah

Now of course, there are about 50 subtangents to every little thing. Like the establishment of the internet to even be here, for the search browser to exist, the people who created the search browser for whatever purpose(making money), the creaters of this site deciding to make something for people to be able to share opinions, those people somehow going through a process that made them interested in occult, the creater of this thread being here, him deciding to start a thread for whatever reason, everyone responding in a similar manner, me deciding someone needs to be devils advocate because im a jerk like that, me having listened to robert anton wilson's audio tapes, me having made this post. You responding.

Original post: Ludi

eh

Original post: Rhiannon

The word karma means action, and it's used as short-hand for the idea that every action you take causes a reaction in the future. Positive, caring actions will bring positive results back to you, whereas negative, hurtful actions will result in your suffering.

Many people believe that both good and bad karma can return to you at any time, even after this lifetime. Hindus believe that the soul is immortal and is reborn in a new body after a person dies. Thus, you have an endless series of lives to work on your karma. In each life, you should strive to do good works and evolve spiritually so your next life will be better than this one. Hindus seek to eventually break free of the cycle of reincarnation and attain eternal bliss of the soul, called moksha.

A god does not administer the law of karma. There is no cosmic judge who doles out punishments and rewards, although some suggest that there is a "cosmic accountant" who tracks each person's karma. Ultimately, each individual is responsible for his or her own actions and karma.

The Buddhist perspective on karma isn't very different than that of Hindus. Every action you take will have a repercussion in the future, and you have to live with the
consequences of your actions. Most Buddhists believe in reincarnation, and their goal is to transcend constant birth and rebirth to achieve nirvana, similar to the Hindu moksha.

Buddhism also places importance on the intent of one's actions. For example, if you accidentally step on a bug and kill it, you won't create bad karma. But if you purposefully kill it, you create bad karma. Likewise, if your actions unintentionally benefit others, you do not create good karma. Only when you mindfully do good, do you create good karma.

Just my thoughts.

Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon

Original post: Ludi

Buddhism also places importance on the intent of one's actions

Then, it seems to me, it isn't really cause and effect, because with cause and effect your actions would have an effect regardless of the intent.

Beyond the immediate effect of an action, what effect is there from karma?

Original post: Anathema_Oracle

That's an interesting point, stating Karma is shorthand for cause and effect, a causal relationship that determines outcomes doesn't account for, as stated, the notion of intent.

In law, there is the notion of Actus Reus and Mens Rea, Actus is action, the physical steps taken in the commission of an offence or legal transgression and Mens Rea, the mental process involved in said act.

If you accidentally shot someone while duck hunting with the correct permit, and you took neccesary precautions or avoided acting in a dangerous manner, it is unlikely you would be charged with murder.

However, if you were duck hunting, saw a person you didn't like and intentionally shot and killed them, then that'd be murder. Or course there are degrees of seriousness, premeditation, provokation, blind rage, accident as stated.

So the law has a notion of cause and effect with intent thrown in...however:

There are also criminal offences caused by inaction or indirect harm..acts by omission, does Karma work for a building constructor who makes a shoddy bridge to save money and then it collapses and kills some motorists, if he had no intent to cause harm, but was motivated by other issues, is his transgression the same as "accidentally stepping on a bug" or in other words, not garnering bad karma?

In the western legal system he is liable for prosecution, his intent being irrelevent, so here as some issues.

1.) If intent is a factor in Karma, how is it determined and by whom? If it is simply a causal chain with no determinist factors, what is its purpose in regards to ethical behavior, behavior being a province of the mind/psyche being linked with intentionality.

2.) Can Karma act regardless of whether the intent was relevent to the cause and the effect as stated by legal ideas about Omissions?

Original post: punxzen

karma is not a law, think of it as an observation. like the theory of relativity, that is an observation.

That's an interesting point, stating Karma is shorthand for cause and effect, a causal relationship that determines outcomes doesn't account for, as stated, the notion of intent.

think of it not as determining outcomes, but as coloring or flavoring the way you perceive future events, and try not to thnk so rationally about it if possible, it might make more sense if you relax your wits and accept the possibility of it and watch for patterns which you might be able to relate to what you think of as karma

Original post: punxzen

Ludi wrote:Then, it seems to me, it isn't really cause and effect, because with cause and effect your actions would have an effect regardless of the intent.

perhaps you could try to relax your understanding of cause and effect to open it up to the possibility?

Beyond the immediate effect of an action, what effect is there from karma?

when you act in a way that enhances or affirms your paradigm (either in your own mind, or in the minds of others), then you will most likely draw results from that action which would be flavored by your paradigm.

i tried to word that in a way that you might relate to better, ludi

Original post: Anathema_Oracle

I agree that sometimes we need to 'relax' and sometimes we need to be vigilant in our logic, having both sides is probably a prerequisite for a balanced human being.

Original post: punxzen

[QUOTE=Anathema_Oracle]I agree that sometimes we need to 'relax' and sometimes we need to be vigilant in our logic, having both sides is probably a prerequisite for a balanced human being.[/QUOTE]aye, balance is nice

karma is one of those things that is not really man made, and probably understood by few if any. from my experience, it seems that it is a very fey concept, one which does not lend itself to being caged or grasped, kinda like tao. now, there may be a karma meme which is man made, and that is the karma which i would agree is a law for the ignorant, similar to the concept of divine judgement. but for future reference, when i refer to karma, i am referring to a phenomena that i have passively observed, and which my intuition tells me does not lend itself to being fully understood.