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I stop believing in it

Is a form of banishment. You are expelling it from your beliefs.So you do it in your own way.
Honestly banishment is just a bad name for it. If you do them long enough you start to understand that there is a lot more going on in a good one then throwing a pent at something to make it go away.

if you can't handle it don't do it

How do you go about learning to handling it then or do you just give up?

Also, not everyone believes the earth isn't flat either

Nothing is True and Everything is Permitted. [rofl]

Zenick wrote:

I stop believing in it

Is a form of banishment. You are expelling it from your beliefs.So you do it in your own way.
Honestly banishment is just a bad name for it. If you do them long enough you start to understand that there is a lot more going on in a good one then throwing a pent at something to make it go away.

if you can't handle it don't do it

How do you go about learning to handling it then or do you just give up?

Also, not everyone believes the earth isn't flat either

Nothing is True and Everything is Permitted. [rofl]

I'm not sure I would call it banishing, banishing is a rather specific technique that almost always involves ceremony / ritual. Not only this, but banishing is sending something that exists independent of you away for the time being, not changing your belief.

Learning how to handle things, magick in this case, involves build up. You should have a pretty good grasp of the science and basics before beginning the practice. Then it is just that; practice. For a very long time.

Also, who said that quote? I can't for the life of me remember!!

I'm not sure I would call it banishing, banishing is a rather specific technique that almost always involves ceremony / ritual. Not only this, but banishing is sending something that exists independent of you away for the time being, not changing your belief.

Imo it's a type a banishment it's just a different way of going about it due to different views of the universe and like I said before most ritual banishings are more then just to banish something.

Learning how to handle things, magick in this case, involves build up. You should have a pretty good grasp of the science and basics before beginning the practice. Then it is just that; practice. For a very long time.

I find with magick there's a need to study and practice to get a complete understanding. I do understand what you mean and to a point I would agree.

Also, who said that quote? I can't for the life of me remember!!

Peter j. Carroll
It shows up in places it's amusing to see it like in Assassin's Creed it's the Creed's maxim.

Oh yes! I remember it in AC. Damn, that game had such potential.

I thought I'd throw in my two cents here, note that everything said below is from my own experiences and personal bias.

From OP:

Prometeo wrote:Hi,
I was thinking, Chaos magick seems to focus in darkness, ... Are there Chaos groups or individuals who aren´t dark? Also, the dicotomy between Right Hand Path and Left Hand Path doesn´t seem satisfactory to me. In the Right Hand Path you abandon your needs, and in the Left Hand Path your ideals, [...] Are there Right Hand Path and Middle Hand Path Chaotes?

Definition of Chaos Magick
Let me start by stating this:
Chaos Magick is to LHP and RHP as Agnosticism is to Theism and Atheism. CM is a philosophy, not a path or religion in its own right. Chaos magic deals with stripping away the unnecessary to find tools that work for you, personally, to achieve the results you will. Like agnosticism, where there can be agnostic theist and agnostic atheists, there can be CM LHPers and CM RHPers. Another common name is Paradigm Piracy, which is a good example of how many use CM, as a framework for "stealing" ideas from other cultures or workings in order to implement their own.

Definition of LHP/RHP
I expect some may take offense to this definition, but it's the one I use to define the different hands. The terms can be generalized as this: A Right-Hand Path worker believes that changes are made above, and then form below, or "as above, so below." An Left-Hand Path worker, instead believes that their workings start below and then affect the above, or "as below, so above." The paths themselves are generalized concepts of where power is drawn from for the working. An RHPer may pray to a god, or bind some being in order to use their power, an LHPer will instead draw from themselves.

Now this is a rough guideline. Drawing "universal energy" to bolster your own in an LHP working could be considered "rhp," while physical acts such as blood sacrifice in a pact could be considered LHP. Likewise, an RHPer may believe in releasing "good vibrations" into the world in order to heal it rather than believe in a God (Gaians or white lighters), while an LHPer may still believe in gods. Here, there is a second part of the definitions that defines a working: which will is considered to be in control? If you are directing everything, it is LHP whereas if you believe other sentients control the working (or handle the actual job in cases of binding) then it's more RHP.

Definition of LHP/RHP regarding GodHead
Not touching this one, but I saw a few mentions of this so I thought I'd throw it in. The idea of godhead (Gnostic, Kia, Islamic, none, etc) is personal to each person. My personal definition is that if you seek to attain or connect with the godhead, or you believe you are a part of the godhead same as everybody else, you hold a more RHP belief. If you believe that you already are the godhead (and remain individual) then you are more LHP.

Why we are of Darkness
Darkness is a loaded term, and doesn't correlate to intent as many would think. I've known many "Dark" pathers who were largely healers or scholars, and I've known a few "Light" Pathers who have threatened to personally kill me with fae magic. In my case I'm considered a "Dark" pather as I believe in and consort with "dark" gods such as Set and Anubis. Chaos magick as a whole is considered by many groups to be a "Dark" path because of what it does. CM breaks down traditional rules of gods, natures, universes, rabbits, in order to distill the reason or form that best coincides with the worker. While Wiccans may believe in the Rule of Three, a CM may scoff at the idea, or say that they understand it to only apply in certain instances. We remove what doesn't make sense to us, which goes against the fundamental ideologies many "light" paths use. We are dark because we challenge what we are told.

Can there be light Chaos Magick?
Using the definition as stated above: Yes. Would it be worthwhile? I don't believe so, but there may be others who can find a way to work within a specific group and still stay "light." Regardless, the actual definition isn't strictly defined. One could argue that the Luciferians are a "Light" organization.

Hopefully this answers the original question, and offers some interest to those looking for a guidelines of what these words mean. Of course, I am a Dark LHPer, so what I say may not be true to you.

Eh, saw a couple other things I wanted to comment on:

DawningSun777 wrote: I'm not sure I would call it banishing, banishing is a rather specific technique that almost always involves ceremony / ritual. Not only this, but banishing is sending something that exists independent of you away for the time being, not changing your belief.

Also, who said that quote? I can't for the life of me remember!!

Banishments, to me, are more like an exercise in meditation: You are clearing your mind of a thought or of something that is inside your state of mind. I banish of a form as a way of mentally wiping all of the crap off my altar before I start the working. Banishments do not need to be lavish, they only need to be a trigger that sets what you will be doing.

Zenick wrote:

Also, who said that quote? I can't for the life of me remember!!

Peter j. Carroll
It shows up in places it's amusing to see it like in Assassin's Creed it's the Creed's maxim.

Actually it's from a novel, titled Alamut.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamut_(1938_novel)
It was apparently the (translated) saying of the hashashins when originally formed. The first modern usage of "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" I believe is attributed to William S. Boroughs? I know it was initially brought forth by another writer before it was picked up as the mantra for Chaosism.

I think most chaos magickians prefer dark because it seems to tap into the creative subconscious far better than light can. In chaos magick there is no dark or light, good or bad magick, there's only bad/evil/good/light intentions.

When I artist suffers from writers block there's a good cure for it. They use their imagination and take a trip down the surreal Alice In Wonderland rabbit hole. So what they do is imagine surreal scenes with themselves in it. What this does is it takes the neuron paths in the brain that you don't normally travel. By doing this the brain starts going down paths it usually doesn't travel and can collect info that don't normally connect. Since most of society subscribes itself to "light/good", by incorporating "dark" scenarios in your magick you can easily access the creative subconscious. I use to incorporate "light" themes but found using "dark" themes takes me into an altered state instantly. I immediately feel like I'm dreaming but awake at the same time.

Perhaps the subconscious just loves the darkness, as a chaos magickians we don't care as long as it works.

If you have ever played Assassins Creed, you probably have heard of "Assassins" and wondered if their was any Historical basis for the game. If you are looking for evidence of an Italian Assassin guild, or an American Assassin guild, you might be able to do it, but not deep deep in history. So you probably automatically assume Ninjas are the precursor to Assassins, and Assassins come from Asia. But they do not. Assassins come from "Hashashins" and they are from the Islamic Tradition.

Hashashins were made famous by a guy called "The Old Man of the Mountain", his real name was Rashid ad-Din Sinan.

The Leader of the Hashashins was Hassan-i Sabbah. He was basically an Islamic Missionary, and his people were being conquered. So he started a "Secret Society" where people joined his Mission in an underground manner, then took a fortress on a mountain by slowly working their way into the guard positions. They all got hired as guards and snuck inside and stuff, then they just pulled out their weapons and told everyone that the fortress was theirs now.

From the fortress on the mountain, they launched attacks and fought of sieges from the enemy army.

The Assassins/Hashashins grew, and eventually they became an enemy to the Knights Templar. When you hear of the Christians and Muslims "fighting over the Holy Land", it was the Assassins Vs The Knights Templar.

The Hashashins were not only known for the one mountain fort and their ability to defend it, but they were also considered formidable by both Christian and Muslim armies. They were known for getting hired or bought as slaves, so that they could get in to the Palaces and camps of other factions leaders, then they would either gather information from that group, or they would continue to plant members in the group until there were more of them than there were actual guards or slaves. Just like the American/French Revolutionaries and the Freed Roman slaves, the Hashashins were known for wearing Santa hats/Phrygian Caps.


You may be wondering "If the Hashashins and the American Revolutionaries and Roman slaves were all wearing Santa hats/Phrygian Caps/Liberty Caps, was there a connection or are they just random groups that both thought the Santa hat was cool? There is a connection. America was not founded by Assassins, but when America was founded, the people living there were Christian, and the other Christian nations wanted to kill them. They were helped by the Santa hat tradition.

If I say the word "Pirate" you automatically picture a few things. An Eye patch, a Peg Leg, a Parrot, and a Curved Sword. The reason you imagine the Curved sword, is because a large portion of what we now call "Pirates" were Barbary Pirates. If you look up "Barbary Pirates" you will find paintings and stuff of people wearing Santa hats.

Then if you look up "Ottoman Soldier" you will find paintings of more people with these hats. The Ottoman Empire was the empire that protected America from the other Christians. When the American flag was first made, it was used on boats, and anyone who saw one would attack that ship. Once the Ottoman empire signed the "Treaty of Peace and Friendship" with America, it officially made America a nation. Because a nation just means that you are an entity that has a treaty with various other nations. That is the only thing that makes a nation a recognized nation. The Ottoman empire is not talked about much, but the British Empire was not such a big problem once America had protection at sea.

If you looked up "Ottoman Soldier" and "Barbary Pirate" and "Hashashin" you probably saw a people that looked pretty Muslim, and think I am talking about Muslim ideology. This is NOT Muslim ideology. It goes further back than Christianity and Islam, you can find more about the Santa hat by looking up "Mithra" and "Phrygia".

But if you want to see how America, France and Santa hat ideology all tie together, all you have to do is look up "Zouave". These are French Soldiers that fought in the Civil war, and if you didn't know they were French, you would think they were from the Middle East.

This appears to be an old conversation but I'm going to address it anyway.

Chaos Magic is often perceived as 'dark' because there are individual personalities within the paradigm, some of them well known, who choose to cultivate a 'blacker than black' persona as their form of ego expression. Chaos itself is not black or white, it is the way of nature. I stronglky suggest reading up on chaos science for anyone who wants to delve into chaos magic. The same parameters in non-linear system dynamics in natural phenomena apply to the successful execution of magic.

I thought the beauty of Chaos Magick was its freedom to utilize all aspects one desires within the limitations of whatever forces they can make use of be it deemed "light" or "dark" by the outside world.... Its my understanding there is no dictate in Chaos Magick on one's ethics/morality nor how chthonic or non-chthonic one wishes their dealings with spirit. Putting a dictate on such things would destroy the beauty of that freedom. All is really a matter of individual choice...

I'm just wondering if the original posters actually believed that spirits were entities outside of their own heads or just figments of their imagination?

There are so many ways that a person can banish. It doesn't have to be a full on Ceremonial Ritual.

Anyone that can sense and interact with spirits (of whatever flavor and/or species) needs to know how to send the packing. If you don't draw some lines in the sand and put down some ground rules - it's actually kind of easy to get over run by spirits or entities.

Light, dark, LHP, RHP, so many labels. I walk a Spiral Path. I do as I feel necessary. Light / dark - whatever. Good / evil - according to whom?

Just remember - you need the dark to define the light. Otherwise you're just wandering in shadow.

I see that this discussion started a few years ago and there was a certain amount of making fun of those who believe in the right hand path and the left hand path. I've always believed in the reality of the right hand path and the left hand path, and it isn't because I'm new, Ive been studying the occult for a very long time. Since I've been doing chaos magick I get the same impression as the original OP of this topic, that chaos magick is very dark and predominantly left-hand path.
However I try to examine objectively what everyone else says and I notice that chaos magicians all have different beliefs from one another, so a lot of them are not deliberately being left hand path because they don't believe in it. Also I listen when they say that if I believe in that, I am the one who is making it real, and I'm only making it real for myself and not for the others.They might be seeing a different reality.

The original OP asked if anyone is doing chaos magick in a more RHP way than average. I believe that I am doing this, and being quite innovative with it. I'll give you an example. A lot of chaos magick is done with the creative arts, and when I first started joining in with this I wrote something moderately dark, to fit in with what the other people were doing. I was writing outside, and when I came back indoors I felt really dirty, I felt possessed by the dark being I had been writing about. So I decided next time, be myself. Individuality is the most prized quality on this path after all. So now I write how I feel, which probably sounds a bit New Age to the other chaos magicians (and they moan about the New Age and Wiccans and white light people all the time.) But the results for me of being myself are great. I feel inspired and feel that I'm getting somewhere. I wouldn't claim lots of verifiable results, but there have been a few and I'm optimistic for more in the future. I think that in the next generation the darkness will probably get watered down, a term which makes it sound like something bad, but it needn't be. It will probably make it much more accessible to people.

DawningSun777 wrote:

Prometeo wrote:Thank you for the quote, I would like to buy books but I don´t have the money, maybe Chaos magic will help, but first I´ll have to succeed at the magical trances, metamorphosis and learning a banishing ritual. Well, at least I have some books on these subjects.

Why do you have to learn a banishing ritual?

Banishing rituals aren't just for dissipating entities. They are also very useful for making the transition into and out of ritual mode. Clearing the decks.

Candy Ray:
I never linked myself with either PRH or PLH and Never look at other chaos magick practitioners as some kind of standard. Even Crowley nor Spare had this big impact on me to change the way I do things. Of course they made me reflect on some of the topics but my Individual Path was always instinctiv and very primal(note: That doesn't mean it ended good for me, hehe).

Maya The Generator wrote:Candy Ray...
Even Crowley nor Spare had this big impact on me to change the way I do things. .

The fact that you need to mention how Crowley DIDN'T have a big impact on you shows the way things go in chaos magick circles. A lot of them have a shared reality in which the goetic demons keep being talked about and recommended. I don't want to sound like the Spanish Inquisition because I would have to arrest myself! But reading this I didn't see any direct replies to the original question of does anyone practise chaos magick in a more right-hand way, and I'm in a postion to reply that yes, I would say that at the moment I do.

Try both paths, all paths. They each have lessons for us.

Also, its only dark if you forget your flashlight.

Prometeo wrote:Hi,
I was thinking, Chaos magick seems to focus in darkness, iin Peter Carroll´s books there is much antinomianism. However, that´s not necessary to controlling the mind, exploring paradigms or controlling the subconscious. Are there Chaos groups or individuals who aren´t dark? Also, the dicotomy between Right Hand Path and Left Hand Path doesn´t seem satisfactory to me. In the Right Hand Path you abandon your needs, and in the Left Hand Path your ideals, however with any of these paths you are only satisfying a part of you and leaving the other part unsatisfied. It´s like Maslow´s pyramid, we aren´t just the top or the bottom. Are there Right Hand Path and Middle Hand Path Chaotes?

A very good question.

Short answer: You do what you want in chaos magic. You can abandon all the ideas of Carroll's, if you wish.
Everything is permitted.
You want a "Middle Hand Path"? Why not?

Longer answer: Carroll says that there is no perfection. No good guys, no bad guys.
What is good or bad? What's good for you can be bad for me and vice versa.
In a world of duality there is no perfection.

My personal point of view / experiences: My first experiences with magic / occult (/ call whatever you want) was with the healing arts.
I'm a positive, optimist kind of guy, yet I've discovered a few months (maybe a year?) ago that my "left hand path" skills are far superior.
For me, healing was always harder, more difficult than cursing / destroying.
And I find this really sad (yet very exciting, at the same time).

I know there are ancient stories (wise stuff) about how much easier to destroy things than heal or build.
In theory, of course, it's pure nonsense.
You do what you want... and can (and believe).

Bottom line: Chaos is neutral.
All the left hand path-right hand path things are about morality.
Chaos has no morality.