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magari wrote: The people who play the game benefit from the game and usually make their living providing for those who think the thing has to burn, but they'll work on burning down the system later, after they swing by McDonalds and the gas station for some smokes.

Classist horseshit. I notice you don't say, "...after they swing by the Gap and the wine store for some pinot noir." Your bourgeois contempt for the poor is a result of your own subconscious rationalization for your material success; it's not you who has profited off the backs of exploited people whose only fault was failing to be born with the right skin colour or social class, but rather that people who are poor are there because of some kind of moral inferiority to yourself.

magari wrote: Those who play ball get rewarded. They deserve it. They cure cancer and invent quantum computers. They entertain and inform. They provide and protect. They realize their dreams, be it Elon Musk's electric cars, Steve Job's Apple Computers, or Richard Branson's space ship.

Elon Musk doesn't build electric cars. The ordinary blue collar workers for whom you hols so much contempt do, and whose labour is parasitized by Elon Musk for the greater glory of Elon Musk. Steve Jobs didn't make computers; he didn't even invent the APPLE! The Woz invented the Apple. Jobs is just the greedy capitalist prick who got rich from it. And I can guarantee you Richard Branson has never installed a single god damn part in any spaceship ever made. All he's done is exploit people and shave off the cream of their labour to pay still other exploited workers to put together a spaceship so he can steal their thunder for himself. Your warmed-over Randroid rationalizations are as tiresome now as they were when that sociopathic old hag pulled them out of her sphincter.

magari wrote: You could whine about all the poverty and disease in the world, but if you look at history we have done nothing but improve that situation.

"Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." -- Arthur Schopenhauer

Nice projection. You might be doing fuck-all, but some of us have spent our entire lives struggling to stop the rusty machinery of oppression.

magari wrote: However, if you live in the core or a first world country, poverty is a pretty easy life.

Spoken like someone who has never experienced poverty. You are obviously unaware that, for example, rickets is making a comeback in poor neighbourhoods in the US, a disease of chronic malnutrition which was last seen during the darkest days of the Industrial Revolution sweatshops. Hungry is hungry, whether it's in El Salvador or New York City. A man who freezes to death under an underpass in Boston is no better off than a man who freezes to death in yurt in Irkutsk. A child deformed by rickets in Los Angeles is no better off than a child who goes blind in a textile mill in Bangladesh. It's one of the more infuriating tactics used by reactionaries to rationalize any complaint by anyone so long as there is anyone, anywhere else on Earth, whose suffering might be worse.

I thought I was speaking to magicians,

Individuals who understand the inherit power of the human spirit

It transcends skin color and social status and elevates individuals from the most dire of circumstances to the heights of human potential.

Awakening that power is a choice.

A choice every human being is capable of making, no matter what their circumstances.

Your only real freedom in this world.

A real magician would never give that away.

Obviously not all of us are created equally.

I'm not going to apologize for not feeling oppressed. In fact, I feel empowered.

I didn't always feel this way.

But one day...

I made a choice.

To deny someone else that choice isn't helping anyone. To tell them that something beyond their control is preventing them from being happy or satisfied is definitely not helping the situation.

Empower them instead.

However, as you all have proven. You don't want the power.

Enjoy your police brutality, minimum wage jobs, and lack of education.

I don't have the time to read or write as I wish to.
Magari, you make redundant posts. You tell us to trust in the system, and then immediately tell us not to trust the single source of security for those "sheep" our culture is so intent on raising.

I don't have a lot to argue here, and my point never was to argue.
I just need to let it be known that I do not trust you.
I don't think I'm personally being enslaved or brainwashed, but everyone of the mundane people who might follow your steps are dooming themselves to ignorance and dependability. Not everyone is as smart as you are, to keep your wonderful ideals and keep their own personality intact.
Two months in military training completely re-wrote the personality of a supposedly once strong-willed friend.

Everything you have to say contradicts what you say before it, in ways that are a lot more subtle than most people would catch on to. You just have a way of writing, man. And your sigil blasting in my brain everytime I read your writing absolutely does not help, although it does intrigue me beyond belief.


Anyway, I'm out. PM me if anyone wants to be mad or something about something.
I don't try to spread hate, but people spend a lot of time typing for me to not have the time to read it all.

Haelos,

in your signature it states;

"God is an imprecise name for the only thing in the universe that actually exists."

That makes the cops and government God too doesn't it?

If you have a problem with them do you not have a problem with God?

Your reality is a reflection of self. If you observe an injustice without, look for the injustice within.

Empower yourself to change what it is you see in the world. Don't allow outside influences to dictate how you decide to live your life, including me.

Obtain a harmonious relationship with the universe around you and it will fall in line with your intentions. This includes the government and possibly aliens.

Words are Magick.

Fear a thing and you give it power over you.

Learn how to use them or become used by them.

Same goes for government/technology/nature.

Your reality is a reflection of self. If you observe an injustice without, look for the injustice within.

Empower yourself to change what it is you see in the world. Don't allow outside influences to dictate how you decide to live your life, including me.

Obtain a harmonious relationship with the universe around you and it will fall in line with your intentions. This includes the government and possibly aliens.

Words are Magick.

Fear a thing and you give it power over you.

Learn how to use them or become used by them.

Same goes for government/technology/nature.

Thanks. I was lost in my thoughts and couldn't make it into words. @up I agree.

You seem to think the fact that I posted a single video and made minor, ambiguous comments, you now know my exact life and way of thinking.
This is exactly why our last conversation went the way it did, when I meant for nothing but productivity out of it.

Stop assuming you know what I mean when I post. You clearly don't. Your arguments are tiring, and you're starting to make me upset. I really thought when I first messaged you, I was talking to a Mage. Not a propaganda machine.
Honestly, you're sad.

This conversation is done. Act like it never even happened, and start replying to the people who actually have called you (and with grace, might I add.)

You have some valid arguments presented in a very clear manner, but behind it all lie some disturbing and perverted ideals. You remind me of a markting agent I once knew.

Like,

magari wrote: Your reality is a reflection of self. If you observe an injustice without, look for the injustice within.

I think this sounds like a proper thing to be said, but is easily refutable.
Take someone like Luther King, did his perceived injustice just lied within him?

magari wrote: The system isn't rigged to keep people brainwashed and marching in step.

You say the system isn't rigged, when it obviously is to some extent. I don't buy the conspiracy crap, but at least with capitalism comes a very defined stereotype of how you should live your life, thinking money like an high score in the game of life. Also, information and knowledge are readily available but at the same time there are many attempts manipulate, suppress or discredit some forms of tought, but still making a buck at their expense, take magic as an example. And there are so many things one could say about capitalism being a dangerous idea that I will just leave it here:

"You are born for free, but you have to pay to live" - Agostinho da Silva.

magari wrote: Humanity is just full of idiots who are about as smart as their dogs.

Saying that most people are dumb and that all dogs are dumb, is kinda dumb too. You have to realize not every person gets the same education. If you relied only in what you learned from school (with the average teacher) you wouldn't be a very bright person either. You never learn alone, and if no one shows up to teach, you will remain untaught. I don't know you, so it's kinda wrong to make assumptions, but for sure you had various people in your life that made you think with them and that pushed you further. If they didn't exist, certainly, you wouldn't think like you think know.

I agree with you that it's better to take a positive stance than to be fearful/paranoid. But that doesn't mean that I have to accept it, and to play by it's rules. Realizing that the system has an inherent propaganda, does not mean that I'm fearful, it's the opposite. I know what is of danger then I can react to it.

frackture wrote:

magari wrote: Your reality is a reflection of self. If you observe an injustice without, look for the injustice within.

I think this sounds like a proper thing to be said, but is easily refutable.
Take someone like Luther King, did his perceived injustice just lied within him?

Love this counter argument. I understood the problem with the statement when I wrote it. I'm not going to deny that there are injustices in the world outside of the individual. There have been in the past and will be more in the future.

Injustice exists in contrast to justice. It generally requires two parties. There is generally an intimate relationship between these two parties, if not before, then after said injustice occurs. This relationship can exist without the conscious knowledge of either party involved. Its also entirely possible for either party to not perceive or experience the injustice as such. One party may even consider the event justice. However, for the injustice to exist at all, it must be perceived.

I'd say Martin Luther King perceived an injustice. This was his choice. This was a perception shared by enough individuals to shape history.

Martin Luther King used the government to correct said injustice.

frackture wrote:

magari wrote: The system isn't rigged to keep people brainwashed and marching in step.

You say the system isn't rigged, when it obviously is to some extent. I don't buy the conspiracy crap, but at least with capitalism comes a very defined stereotype of how you should live your life, thinking money like an high score in the game of life. Also, information and knowledge are readily available but at the same time there are many attempts manipulate, suppress or discredit some forms of tought, but still making a buck at their expense, take magic as an example. And there are so many things one could say about capitalism being a dangerous idea that I will just leave it here:

"You are born for free, but you have to pay to live" - Agostinho da Silva.

Capitalism isn't perfect, but if you wish to discuss economic systems then the reality is that Capitalism doesn't exist today in pure form. It never has. America came close in the 19th century (monopolies), but most modern economies today are a form of mixed economy. I see a balance of laissez-faire and policy designed to promote sustainable and healthy behavior.

Economies and civilization period has been evolving since the beginning. We are nowhere near perfection, but the system changes with the needs and demands of the population. Not all leaders are created equally. Not all populations have sustainable "needs" or demands.

frackture wrote:

magari wrote: Humanity is just full of idiots who are about as smart as their dogs.

Saying that most people are dumb and that all dogs are dumb, is kinda dumb too. You have to realize not every person gets the same education. If you relied only in what you learned from school (with the average teacher) you wouldn't be a very bright person either. You never learn alone, and if no one shows up to teach, you will remain untaught. I don't know you, so it's kinda wrong to make assumptions, but for sure you had various people in your life that made you think with them and that pushed you further. If they didn't exist, certainly, you wouldn't think like you think know.

I agree with you that it's better to take a positive stance than to be fearful/paranoid. But that doesn't mean that I have to accept it, and to play by it's rules. Realizing that the system has an inherent propaganda, does not mean that I'm fearful, it's the opposite. I know what is of danger then I can react to it.

This was definitely an emotionally charged statement on my behalf. I've been around the world and have lived for over a year in multiple first world countries as well as third world.

In my experience, the actions of a population reflect the actions of their individuals. However, I've witnessed greatness from the most unlikely of places.

In my experience those individuals made a choice. Privilege wasn't required, only the fire of the human spirit. This is what seems to be lacking in the masses who are no better than their dogs in my opinion.

A system that doesn't develop its future dies.

The system is in the business of ensuring its success.

The system has no idea what success looks like.

We get to decide.

magari wrote: ...if you wish to discuss economic systems then the reality is that Capitalism doesn't exist today in pure form. It never has. America came close in the 19th century (monopolies), but most modern economies today are a form of mixed economy. I see a balance of laissez-faire and policy designed to promote sustainable and healthy behavior.

As you imply, even in the past, when capitalism existed in a more laissez-faire form, it was never completely thus. The idea of "pure" capitalism is a fairy tale that only makes any semblance of sense in the deluded ideologies of right libertarians and anarcho-capitalists, or as a tool of propaganda for defending capitalism in its current form. Some level of state interference in the economy doesn't mean that we don't live in capitalism (at least not in any meaningful sense). The state exists in the first place to defend the status quo for the minuscule portion of the population that controls the means of production (the bourgeoisie), thus forcing the bulk of the remaining population (the proletariat) to sell their labor to survive.

I'm not going to deny that there are injustices in the world outside of the individual. There have been in the past and will be more in the future.

Injustice exists in contrast to justice. It generally requires two parties. There is generally an intimate relationship between these two parties, if not before, then after said injustice occurs. This relationship can exist without the conscious knowledge of either party involved. Its also entirely possible for either party to not perceive or experience the injustice as such. One party may even consider the event justice. However, for the injustice to exist at all, it must be perceived.

I will ignore the contradiction in your argument (injustice exists externally and might not be perceived as injustice, but for injustice to exist it must be perceived), but I will argue that injustice is not necessarily something that exists only in a relationship between individuals, but can also be codified in societal systems. Take, for a (hopefully) easy example, the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, which (in the United States) required by law that escaped slaves be returned to their owners, even if they escaped to northern states in which slavery was abolished. Who is to blame if northerners turned the slave in to the authorities, thus returning them to a hellish existence? On the one hand, there is of course individual responsibility, and each person is morally accountable to his compliance with unjust laws. However, no one exists in a vacuum. When there is economic incentive to commit injustice, and threat of punishment for defiance of injustice, this is a systematic perpetuation of injustice.

In my experience, the actions of a population reflect the actions of their individuals. However, I've witnessed greatness from the most unlikely of places.

Of course, again, on one level it entirely comes down to the individual. Not every working class person is a mindless drone, and not every person with privilege is an enlightened saint. Nor is it by any means impossible to overcome one's conditions and discover spirituality, esoteric truths, enlightenment, salvation, et cetera, et cetera. However, again, we exist in relationship to our conditions, and when confronted with a society in which there is a consolidation of power and resources in a small hand, and which has built a state devoted to the continuation of that condition (at any cost), the members of that society are affected. This takes myriad forms, from being bombarded with propaganda to prevent the general populace from thinking outside of their roles as workers, to the realities of having to spend much of your life working to feed, clothe, and house yourself. The result is that the vast majority of the population is kept in ignorance. This doesn't make them "dogs" - they are still human beings, each one capable of greatness given the right circumstances, and I would argue that a more egalitarian society would make it easier to achieve those circumstances.

(I should add that Capitalism can be just as spiritually crippling to the ruling class as the working class; just as the workers are prone to be distracted by their role in society, the rulers - often, but not always - are distracted from higher pursuits by their role in maintaining their power).

The system has no idea what success looks like.

We get to decide.

Let us decide, then, to do away with a system that keeps vast portions of the world in a perpetual state of poverty, hunger, preventable disease, homelessness, and war.

Reality is a contradiction.

Focus on the details and you loose the big picture.

I'm not going to debate anymore whether or not the system promotes injustice.

I don't make excuses for my state of being.

I sure must say I was wrong. [tongue]

Magari your big picture lacks details. And your ignorance is absolutly phenomenal. [thumbup]

Have good day guys and Praise Teh Sun \[T]/ [cool]

I've experienced the injustices most conspiracy theorists rant about.

In regards to spiritual development and magick I will only say that your enemy is actually your friend. Usually the closest one you have.

I think I raised some valid, non-conspiracy theorist points, and "Focus on the details and you loose the big picture" kind of seems like a meaningless platitude. It's somewhat disappointing that you choose not to respond, but I fully respect your decision to do so.

Its pretty simple.

You can sit as still as you please, but it doesn't eliminate the fact that you are zooming faster than you can imagine around a sun.

Details serve, but it depends on perspective.

From where I stand, your enemies are actually your brothers and sisters. Calling them your enemies and attempting to convince me otherwise is what I call focusing on the details.

From where I stand the government is as much a necessity as the air you breathe.

Look at time. Where we've come from, where we are headed.

Things have been worse, a lot worse.

Things are getting better, a lot better.

The system has evolved out of necessity. It continues to evolve.

Its not your enemy. Its a natural thing. It existed before the written word when humanity was little more than wandering tribes.

It will exist without you.

Why make it your enemy?

Thank you for your considerate response.

I entirely agree that "your enemies are actually your brothers and sisters". I've tried to convey primarily criticisms of capitalism as a societal system, as opposed to aggression towards any individuals. While I do view capitalism as fundamentally flawed, I differ from many of my fellow anarchists and communists in that I am a strict pacifist, and believe nonviolence is critical, both in moves for social change, and in general. Unconditional Love is the most important lesson humanity has to learn, and it must be because of this truth, and not in opposition to it, that we are motivated to transform society for the better.

If there was any confusion on this point, it may have arisen from my clarification of society into social classes - the bourgeois and proletariat. I don't consider members of the ruling class to be "enemies", at least not in the sense that I wish them any ill will as individuals. Rather, I view them as a social class that has amassed a huge amount of control of society, and, through extension, their fellow men (on the latter point, see: my earlier post), and who as a class are dedicated to preserving a flawed system which perpetuates wide-scale injustice and general misery.

Certainly, human society has evolved greatly over the course of our time on this planet thus far. Certainly, every moment of existence is meaningful, worthwhile, and necessary. That doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile to advocate the further evolution of society into something better. I would posit that the abolition of capitalism in favor of an egalitarian system that made its first goal the fulfillment of every member of society's needs (starting with basic ones - food, water, shelter, healing of physical disease, et cetera) would alleviate a great deal of humanity's collective suffering, help transform society that it might shed innumerable injustices, and, in doing so, create a situation in which many more individuals, freed from such mundane concerns deus ex machina, as it were, could turn their attention to more meaningful pursuits, the least of which being the arts, science, medicine and so forth, and the greatest of which including philosophy, meaningful religion, and collective awareness of the sorts of mysteries we on this forum try to grapple with.

So no, I do not have any enemies, and yes, our current system evolved out of necessity, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't dream of a better world.

No, we should definitely dream of a better world.

Injustice exists in contrast to injustice.

I don't imagine the human experience will ever see or experience a world full of justice. As long as the duality exists in tandem with the human experience, the details will reflex justice as well as injustice.

To stand in the light is to be surrounded by it. Everywhere you look you see brothers and sisters helping you make the world a better place. Its not just an experience to be had during meditation or an altered state, but something that can be lived from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to sleep.

Living like this is a choice. One every magician is capable of making. A great magician inspires these choices in the individuals around them.

I imagine injustice will forever exist until the moment the species "transcends", whatever thats supposed to mean. (I really don't know)

We must be careful how we consider what we experience. Be it an injustice read about in the news, or something that happened to your individual. Just because you happen to be on that side of the fence, doesn't mean its the way it is everywhere. The size of any problem is relative. What was once considered normal in the past is an injustice today. This is a pattern moving forward in my eyes.

However, considering where we came from. I'm in love with being human and everything that entails.

I am a proud American who believes its hegemony is in decline.

I am hopeful for the rising nations and watch their social struggles as if they were my own.

I envision technology empowering the global south by eliminating currently necessary financial institutions or changing them entirely, possibly replacing them with new ones. Once this happens, the festering wound that is the global distribution of wealth should begin to heal. This is a prediction, but again, when you look through history humanity has always found a way.