Original post: callum
forget the dot, consider the cube.... the cube is everything.... you are part of the cube.... you can see the cube as matter or you can see the cube as mind.... or you can try to see it as both at once and call it the prima materia.
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
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Original post: Specktackular
[QUOTE=callum]forget the dot, consider the cube.... the cube is everything.... you are part of the cube.... you can see the cube as matter or you can see the cube as mind.... or you can try to see it as both at once and call it the prima materia.[/QUOTE]
Hey, wait a minute! This is a trick. I just realized that's no cube. It's just a flat drawing. Damn these glasses!
I get what you're saying, but do you get what I'm saying? Everything is of course all at once, but still mind comes first because power over form lies in mind. When you select reality, you resort to mind.
[QUOTE=callum]forget the dot, consider the cube.... the cube is everything.... you are part of the cube.... you can see the cube as matter or you can see the cube as mind.... or you can try to see it as both at once and call it the prima materia.[/QUOTE]
Hey, wait a minute! This is a trick. I just realized that's no cube. It's just a flat drawing. Damn these glasses!
I get what you're saying, but do you get what I'm saying? Everything is of course all at once, but still mind comes first because power over form lies in mind. When you select reality, you resort to mind.
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Original post: callum
perhaps i am not understanding you.. but to clarify myself... reality is the lines (i know this is not a perfect example as it depends on perception of an observer "outside the system".... i intend that to sound a bit quatum) and mind and matter are two intepretations of the lines. mind is part of the same process as matter, they are concurrent...neither proceeds the other as they are the same.
could you explain your last statement to me
perhaps i am not understanding you.. but to clarify myself... reality is the lines (i know this is not a perfect example as it depends on perception of an observer "outside the system".... i intend that to sound a bit quatum) and mind and matter are two intepretations of the lines. mind is part of the same process as matter, they are concurrent...neither proceeds the other as they are the same.
could you explain your last statement to me
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Original post: Specktackular
[QUOTE=callum]perhaps i am not understanding you.. but to clarify myself... reality is the lines (i know this is not a perfect example as it depends on perception of an observer "outside the system".... i intend that to sound a bit quatum) and mind and matter are two intepretations of the lines. mind is part of the same process as matter, they are concurrent...neither proceeds the other as they are the same.
could you explain your last statement to me[/QUOTE]
Okay, "when you select reality you resort to mind" can be taken a few ways:
1. You are responsible for your actions. A thing is neither good or bad, but thinking makes it so. If you step in shit, this instantly pisses you off. One could say "aha! The physical has influenced the mental and there you have it!" But, the mind has the power to actually interpret any of this and until we perceive that shit is bad, the physical has no effect on us other than to dirty our physical shell. We could sense the temperature of warm or cool shit on our foot and depending on the person, the sensation might feel good or bad, but the decision is in the mind.
2. When we perform magick, we make a "reality selection". First, we choose what we want to happen. This happens in the mind. Then we perform the magick, which also happens in the mind. Even if the magic is performed ceremoniously in a ritual setting using physical tools, all of this is exterior manifestation of mental constructs. The whole thing could be performed in the inner temple, so the whole process is really in the mind. The mind effectively communicates to the Great Mind or Universal Mind or Whatever and if the magick is successful, "reality selection" occurs and the physical acts in accord with the mental.
[QUOTE=callum]perhaps i am not understanding you.. but to clarify myself... reality is the lines (i know this is not a perfect example as it depends on perception of an observer "outside the system".... i intend that to sound a bit quatum) and mind and matter are two intepretations of the lines. mind is part of the same process as matter, they are concurrent...neither proceeds the other as they are the same.
could you explain your last statement to me[/QUOTE]
Okay, "when you select reality you resort to mind" can be taken a few ways:
1. You are responsible for your actions. A thing is neither good or bad, but thinking makes it so. If you step in shit, this instantly pisses you off. One could say "aha! The physical has influenced the mental and there you have it!" But, the mind has the power to actually interpret any of this and until we perceive that shit is bad, the physical has no effect on us other than to dirty our physical shell. We could sense the temperature of warm or cool shit on our foot and depending on the person, the sensation might feel good or bad, but the decision is in the mind.
2. When we perform magick, we make a "reality selection". First, we choose what we want to happen. This happens in the mind. Then we perform the magick, which also happens in the mind. Even if the magic is performed ceremoniously in a ritual setting using physical tools, all of this is exterior manifestation of mental constructs. The whole thing could be performed in the inner temple, so the whole process is really in the mind. The mind effectively communicates to the Great Mind or Universal Mind or Whatever and if the magick is successful, "reality selection" occurs and the physical acts in accord with the mental.
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Original post: callum
i understand that you have adopted the classical qabalistic position.... that the tree of life is a consolidation of an idea into manifestation and that the path of return is an unraveling back to the primordial blueprint. i see this as a dualistic notion... a bit like you distinction between "physical shell" and "mind". to me it is all the one thing.... you can choose to call it all mind and be an idealist.... you can choose to call it all matter and be a materialist.... certain types of reaction may preceed other types of reaction but they are not of different types ...
i know that this is a bit off topic but it may (or may not) clarify our different positions on this.
YHVH= demiurge
YHShVH= messiah
i imagine that you would say the YH(Sh)VH is "created" when you choose to infuse the four elements with spirit (you draw spirit into the world from Kether) ... you choose to smell the shit as if it were sweet as roses.
i would say that to create YH(Sh)VH you (being YHVH the prima materia) "create" a certain balance within yourself ... the four elements are where they should be and, like a centre of gravity, Sh is there as it has been all along. the four elements have through the chain of circumstance found their balance and the shit smells like roses.
to me consiousness is a activity in the prima materia like flowing or falling.
i understand that you have adopted the classical qabalistic position.... that the tree of life is a consolidation of an idea into manifestation and that the path of return is an unraveling back to the primordial blueprint. i see this as a dualistic notion... a bit like you distinction between "physical shell" and "mind". to me it is all the one thing.... you can choose to call it all mind and be an idealist.... you can choose to call it all matter and be a materialist.... certain types of reaction may preceed other types of reaction but they are not of different types ...
i know that this is a bit off topic but it may (or may not) clarify our different positions on this.
YHVH= demiurge
YHShVH= messiah
i imagine that you would say the YH(Sh)VH is "created" when you choose to infuse the four elements with spirit (you draw spirit into the world from Kether) ... you choose to smell the shit as if it were sweet as roses.
i would say that to create YH(Sh)VH you (being YHVH the prima materia) "create" a certain balance within yourself ... the four elements are where they should be and, like a centre of gravity, Sh is there as it has been all along. the four elements have through the chain of circumstance found their balance and the shit smells like roses.
to me consiousness is a activity in the prima materia like flowing or falling.
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Original post: Specktackular
To me it is all the same thing, too, but in different forms. Matter, energy, aether, consciousness... all the same thing at different rates of vibration, but it appears that mind is the controling aspect.
For instance, you said the lines on the box can be seen as either/or, right? Well, tell me, am I thinking with matter right now or am I thinking with my mind? I know my mind is contained in a brain (matter) and electrical impulses (energy) have something to do with thought process, but consciousness is really quite invisible. I would not say I am thinking with matter because a dead brain in a jar doesn't think very well.
To me it is all the same thing, too, but in different forms. Matter, energy, aether, consciousness... all the same thing at different rates of vibration, but it appears that mind is the controling aspect.
For instance, you said the lines on the box can be seen as either/or, right? Well, tell me, am I thinking with matter right now or am I thinking with my mind? I know my mind is contained in a brain (matter) and electrical impulses (energy) have something to do with thought process, but consciousness is really quite invisible. I would not say I am thinking with matter because a dead brain in a jar doesn't think very well.
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Original post: callum
when you jump you do not presume that the "jump" describes anything other than a motion of your body through space (there is no particular "jumpy" substance)..... why not also consider that when you "think" it describes nothing other than certain chemical reactions occuring in you brain (and there is no seperate "thinky" substance called mind). this is the issue that is central to philosophy of mind and at the end of the day it really doesn't have any effect on our magick.
i agree with you: everything i know is mediated by my mind. i disagree that my mind is external to the system which it seeks to understand. i can choose to study energy (and call it Kether) or i can choose to study the significance of particular forms to me (and call it Malkuth) but the choice making faculty does not truly belong in either Kether nor Malkuth .... it is part of the continuum of which my perceptual systems are but a small part (mysterious Mother Nuit, she who is the circle with no centre).
when you jump you do not presume that the "jump" describes anything other than a motion of your body through space (there is no particular "jumpy" substance)..... why not also consider that when you "think" it describes nothing other than certain chemical reactions occuring in you brain (and there is no seperate "thinky" substance called mind). this is the issue that is central to philosophy of mind and at the end of the day it really doesn't have any effect on our magick.
i agree with you: everything i know is mediated by my mind. i disagree that my mind is external to the system which it seeks to understand. i can choose to study energy (and call it Kether) or i can choose to study the significance of particular forms to me (and call it Malkuth) but the choice making faculty does not truly belong in either Kether nor Malkuth .... it is part of the continuum of which my perceptual systems are but a small part (mysterious Mother Nuit, she who is the circle with no centre).
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Original post: Specktackular
[QUOTE=callum]when you jump you do not presume that the "jump" describes anything other than a motion of your body through space (there is no particular "jumpy" substance)..... why not also consider that when you "think" it describes nothing other than certain chemical reactions occuring in you brain (and there is no seperate "thinky" substance called mind). this is the issue that is central to philosophy of mind and at the end of the day it really doesn't have any effect on our magick. [/quote]
What I always think about is that unidentified force in the central nervous system that science lumps in with "electricity" knowing full well that it isn't and this is what is referred to as Chi. What is the force that causes the chemical reactions in the brain, anyway? Another thought: chemical reactions occur in the brains of brain-dead vegetables on life support. So, what do you think? Personally, I think mind accesses the harddrive. Take a magnet to your brain-- guess what happens?
[QUOTE=callum]i agree with you: everything i know is mediated by my mind. i disagree that my mind is external to the system which it seeks to understand. i can choose to study energy (and call it Kether) or i can choose to study the significance of particular forms to me (and call it Malkuth) but the choice making faculty does not truly belong in either Kether nor Malkuth .... it is part of the continuum which exists beyond my perceptual systems (mysterious Mother Nuit, she who is the circle with no centre).[/QUOTE]
Well, I don't know about the Tree of Life diagram, really. It's representative of human perception, I think. If existence is eternal, did anything really START ANYWHERE?
[QUOTE=callum]when you jump you do not presume that the "jump" describes anything other than a motion of your body through space (there is no particular "jumpy" substance)..... why not also consider that when you "think" it describes nothing other than certain chemical reactions occuring in you brain (and there is no seperate "thinky" substance called mind). this is the issue that is central to philosophy of mind and at the end of the day it really doesn't have any effect on our magick. [/quote]
What I always think about is that unidentified force in the central nervous system that science lumps in with "electricity" knowing full well that it isn't and this is what is referred to as Chi. What is the force that causes the chemical reactions in the brain, anyway? Another thought: chemical reactions occur in the brains of brain-dead vegetables on life support. So, what do you think? Personally, I think mind accesses the harddrive. Take a magnet to your brain-- guess what happens?
[QUOTE=callum]i agree with you: everything i know is mediated by my mind. i disagree that my mind is external to the system which it seeks to understand. i can choose to study energy (and call it Kether) or i can choose to study the significance of particular forms to me (and call it Malkuth) but the choice making faculty does not truly belong in either Kether nor Malkuth .... it is part of the continuum which exists beyond my perceptual systems (mysterious Mother Nuit, she who is the circle with no centre).[/QUOTE]
Well, I don't know about the Tree of Life diagram, really. It's representative of human perception, I think. If existence is eternal, did anything really START ANYWHERE?
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Original post: callum
i don't think its called electricity... i think it is called electrical potential (something to do with sodium and potassium) and it occurs throughout the whole body (even those bits that do not 'think" in the Cartesian sense). i agree that life is mysterious, and consciousness particularly so (that is why we're all occultists isn't it..... trying to find the secret) and that while science has provided us with some great technology it has never sought to answer the really important questions (perhaps because the secret is not in the answers but in the seeking... not in the gold but in the alchemical process). we each choose metaphors that work for us, discard them when they are no longer of use and discover new ones.
Spektacular, i admire your skeptical investigation and your refusal to accept bullshit cliches from other people. i hope we understand each other (and that you do not think that i am trying to explain "lower truths" to you while you discuss "higher") but we have reached the point were i am continent to return to my own metaphysical universe. again, thanks for the discussion.
i don't think its called electricity... i think it is called electrical potential (something to do with sodium and potassium) and it occurs throughout the whole body (even those bits that do not 'think" in the Cartesian sense). i agree that life is mysterious, and consciousness particularly so (that is why we're all occultists isn't it..... trying to find the secret) and that while science has provided us with some great technology it has never sought to answer the really important questions (perhaps because the secret is not in the answers but in the seeking... not in the gold but in the alchemical process). we each choose metaphors that work for us, discard them when they are no longer of use and discover new ones.
Spektacular, i admire your skeptical investigation and your refusal to accept bullshit cliches from other people. i hope we understand each other (and that you do not think that i am trying to explain "lower truths" to you while you discuss "higher") but we have reached the point were i am continent to return to my own metaphysical universe. again, thanks for the discussion.
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Original post: callum
on final post
you spoke about layers of vibration.... in earlier post i spoke about levels of scale..... this might be analogues. we cannot change to orbit of planets because our mass is too small.... however a pebble can from time to time start an avalanche.
on final post
you spoke about layers of vibration.... in earlier post i spoke about levels of scale..... this might be analogues. we cannot change to orbit of planets because our mass is too small.... however a pebble can from time to time start an avalanche.
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Original post: Specktackular
This is old, but I still do not believe they have given a better name to this Life Force than Prana or Chi:
ELECTRICITY AND LIFE
by Frederick Finch Strong, M.D.
Lecturer on Electrotherapeutics
Tufts Medical School
Boston
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:90 ... n&ie=UTF-8
Check it out, you'll enjoy it!
Callum, that "lower vs. higher truths" remark was in relation to many things, not all of which were on OF or even occured recently. It wasn't directed at you or anyone specific for sure. I was actually thinking of mind-numbing conversations I have at work when I finally decided to post that (we talk about a lot of the stuff I talk about here). I had already kind of spoken my mind about that in my "how not to have a flame war" post (can't remember the name of it).
This is old, but I still do not believe they have given a better name to this Life Force than Prana or Chi:
ELECTRICITY AND LIFE
by Frederick Finch Strong, M.D.
Lecturer on Electrotherapeutics
Tufts Medical School
Boston
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:90 ... n&ie=UTF-8
Check it out, you'll enjoy it!
Callum, that "lower vs. higher truths" remark was in relation to many things, not all of which were on OF or even occured recently. It wasn't directed at you or anyone specific for sure. I was actually thinking of mind-numbing conversations I have at work when I finally decided to post that (we talk about a lot of the stuff I talk about here). I had already kind of spoken my mind about that in my "how not to have a flame war" post (can't remember the name of it).
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Original post: Specktackular
P.S. I admire yours and everyone else's ideas here on OF, too. If it were not for everyone's willingness to discuss, I really don't think I would have the ability to analyze my thoughts. I am always just trying to assert what seems reasonable and do not think less of anyone else if I am not able to express myself well or if I'm just plain talking nonsense. If I was making sense, people would understand me, right? I'm trying!
When it comes down to it, I think I've agreed with pretty much damn near everything everyone has said. Fiat_Lux_777 said it brilliantly on the first page of this thread! So have you!
I am the one who's been having the trouble expressing myself and only with everyone's help have I perhaps finally started to make some sense? I hope. I feel like I understand what I was questioning and I feel like I came to a conclusion (not definite) that makes some sense.
P.S. I admire yours and everyone else's ideas here on OF, too. If it were not for everyone's willingness to discuss, I really don't think I would have the ability to analyze my thoughts. I am always just trying to assert what seems reasonable and do not think less of anyone else if I am not able to express myself well or if I'm just plain talking nonsense. If I was making sense, people would understand me, right? I'm trying!
When it comes down to it, I think I've agreed with pretty much damn near everything everyone has said. Fiat_Lux_777 said it brilliantly on the first page of this thread! So have you!
I am the one who's been having the trouble expressing myself and only with everyone's help have I perhaps finally started to make some sense? I hope. I feel like I understand what I was questioning and I feel like I came to a conclusion (not definite) that makes some sense.
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Original post: Specktackular
An old tymey scientist speaks about LIFE FORCE in quite mental terms:
http://www.occultforums.com/showthread.php?p=60278
Small quote: "A few years ago, when almost every scientist was a materialist, we believed in nothing but matter and force; today science recognizes the necessity of a third basic principle, Intelligence or Mind, without this we can satisfactorily account for none of the facts of the world in which we find ourselves. Its manifestations in matter thru the Cosmic Forces give us at least a working hypothe-sis of life. "
An old tymey scientist speaks about LIFE FORCE in quite mental terms:
http://www.occultforums.com/showthread.php?p=60278
Small quote: "A few years ago, when almost every scientist was a materialist, we believed in nothing but matter and force; today science recognizes the necessity of a third basic principle, Intelligence or Mind, without this we can satisfactorily account for none of the facts of the world in which we find ourselves. Its manifestations in matter thru the Cosmic Forces give us at least a working hypothe-sis of life. "