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It is all around you , but you do not see it... [wink]

"Those who have eyes shall see , those who have ears , will hear"

Later attributed to someone else , yet a saying from our Tradition...

Until you study the Code and Tradition , for many years , you shall not "get" it...

Just the way it is...

Let me ask you something...

Have you been initiated into a Tradition ?

What degree ?

Have they revealed *everything* to you , even if you have achieved a level of that tradition ?

How many years have you spent in that tradition , and how many hours have you dedicated
to that tradition , out of each day ?

Have you found , even if you have been initiated into a tradition , that when you reach the
pinnacle of that tradition , you may or may not be invited into another tradition which has
deeper information ?

Now , I am not speaking of academic tradition , nor am I speaking of book learned tradition ,
such as Bardon , or others...

I challenge you to reveal to me the secrets of any aboriginal tradition , if you have not been initiated...

Because they are not written down , and are preserved under threat of death...

Which has been actualized many times , over the aeons...

"If we told you everything , we would have to kill you"

Is *very* real , even today... [thumbup]

( by the way , we tell people who stick things into files to stick their files somewhere )... [wink]

I feel you are now moving away from what I have said.It is totally irrelevant if I have been initiated!

I am here not interested in the secrets of a tradition but to assess if it should be filed under personal belief or if it warrants the time and effort to trace its provenance.

If you cannot show or are unwilling to give details of your tradition(s) then I am done on this topic.As you say,I can then file it in the proverbial

Be done , then...your choice...I only was posting here to :

1. Show the variant of the Tree , which included Da'ath as a Sephiroth...

2. Mention that there were other variations to the Tree tradition , or
ways of perceiving Qabalistic tradition , under whatever name...

And older traditions of the same , not written down...

Further , however...I do hold to my statement that if one is not initiated ,
one can never know the deeper secrets , not normally revealed...

And , our differences partially stem from you being a historian , and I
being an initiate , who cares not for files or documented proof...

I normally throw academic papers , in the vertical file... [thumbup]

Did I say I was not an Initiate? If you throw out academic research then thats your choice albeit you may regret missing out on progress.

I am done here as I am satisfied it warrants no further attention.

Spida wrote:

I haven't read the entire argument here, but I'm pretty sure the Sepher Yetzirah is pretty explicit about there being only 10 Sephiroth. I see Daath possibly as an untraversable lacuna created upon separation of the supernal triad from the rest of the sephiroth.

This was what I was trying to say.The whole point was that there were only 10 Sephiroth and that Daat was never a Sephiroth.The idea it was and its positioning on the Tree has been promoted by the New Age movement.
They take no account that the models shown are two dimensional and treat it as a road map.Problem is,when you actually drive on the roads they are far different than flat lines!

Spida wrote:

I haven't read the entire argument here, but I'm pretty sure the Sepher Yetzirah is pretty explicit about there being only 10 Sephiroth. I see Daath possibly as an untraversable lacuna created upon separation of the supernal triad from the rest of the sephiroth.

Look at the post I made with the link to "Children of Abraham" book by Daniel Feldman , Spida...

He shows the "Fallen Tree" , used today , and the older Tree , now called the Perfected Tree , as
it is the idealized Tree , of "return to the source" , in the Obri / Hebraic Qabalah...

In there there is no Malkuth , yet Da'ath does exist...

Most today , do not even realize Da'ath contains all the other Sephiroth...

In a concentric circle form , called "Shells" or Qlippoth...

Yet , it truly is the source...an interdimensional doorway , or wormhole of information...

Some would call it chaos , due to the vastness of information , *uncategorized , and unfiled"...

It is to be compared to "normal" human consciousness , and what occurs when a human ingests
fifty hits of four way clearlight , or 200 hits of pure LSD...information overload... [wink]

Violetstar , I asked you if you were an initiate , followed by a series of other questions...

It was you who refused to answer in a coherent fashion , detailing each answer... [thumbup]

Further , those who rely on academia and book and paper written proof...or even stone tablets ,
are basing their whole arguments on a fallacy...

Before academic institutions , there were temples , before temples , caves , groves , mounds...

Before the written , there was oral...

If one accuses oral of being corrupted , just what does that make the written which came later ?

Just more corrupted , especially when what we call civilization , and politics became a predominant
paradigm , as politics has always influenced what has been funded , recorded , published , or even
survived through the ages...every now and then something is found like the Dead Sea Scrolls , and
a huge deal is made of it...

To our Tradition , that is not even as old as yesterday's newspaper...nor Tibetan stone tablets...

Do we have our writings ?

Some , preserved as what are called the real Books of Shadows...not the modern's versions...

And even those are fragments , thus the Lore...passed down faithfully , through initiated lines
not spoken of normally , for good reason...think about it , and you will know why...

There are those who still hunt those who truly know today...

I will say , quantum science , is finally beginning to touch the tip of the iceberg... [wink]

I guess if something doesn't fit with the most dogmatically traditional Western views it cannot possibly be real

OrderoftheSerpent wrote:I guess if something doesn't fit with the most dogmatically traditional Western views it cannot possibly be real

I knew if I wait long enough even you will drop something wise somewhere eventually. Thanks.
But it shouldn't be surprising, that "king of the hill" syndrome is very sticky.

violetstar wrote: I am here not interested in the secrets of a tradition but to assess if it should be filed under personal belief or if it warrants the time and effort to trace its provenance.

And the only reason I am here , or on any site online , is to learn more
which will possibly lead me to deeper secrets of any tradition , and
to share some of mine... [thumbup]

Just to be clear...

Thus , another difference in approach... [wink]

OrderoftheSerpent wrote:I guess if something doesn't fit with the most dogmatically traditional Western views it cannot possibly be real

Let alone the difference between gods and elder gods , or modern views and ancient , or oral or written...

Or an American California view , and a British one... [thumbup]

There is a reason we revolted...we did not like others telling us what to do , or what was right...

We still don't , whether it is by our own academia , or some other , trying to tell us what is or is
not real or valid , when we are the one's practicing , or even teaching the traditions...

I used to tell my students the story of the scientist and the bumblebee...

Where the scientist is telling it it cannot fly by the laws of aerodynamics... [lol]

Shawn Blackwolf wrote:
I used to tell my students the story of the scientist and the bumblebee...

Where the scientist is telling it it cannot fly by the laws of aerodynamics... [lol]

You used to? Until you found out that actually that story is a lie and bumblebee's doesn't actually break any laws of physics?

Cerber wrote:

Shawn Blackwolf wrote:
I used to tell my students the story of the scientist and the bumblebee...

Where the scientist is telling it it cannot fly by the laws of aerodynamics... [lol]

You used to? Until you found out that actually that story is a lie and bumblebee's doesn't actually break any laws of physics?

No , what *was* a lie would be if I said a scientist *proved* it...

It was *never* a lie , it was not *said*...

Get your ducks in a row , before you accuse me , Cerber , or you might just show you are all quacked up...

http://www.snopes.com/science/bumblebees.asp

It was in 2005 , * I believe* , ( not sure there ) , a scientist *proved* how they accomplished it...

Let me see...

Yes , here we go...




Explained: The Physics-Defying Flight of the Bumblebee

Short and stubby, the bumblebee doesn't look very flight-worthy. Indeed, in the 1930s, French entomologist August Magnan even noted that the insect's flight is actually impossible, a notion that has stuck in popular consciousness since then.

Now, you don't need to be a scientist to raise an eyebrow at this assertion, but it sure is easier to explain the bumblebee's physics-defying aerodynamics if you're Michael Dickinson, a professor of biology and insect flight expert at the University of Washington.

"The whole question of how these little wings generate enough force to keep the insect in the air is resolved," Dickinson told Life's Little Mysteries. "There are details remaining, but it's just not an enigma anymore."

Dickinson published a 2005 study in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on the flight of the bumblebee after gathering data using high-speed photography of actual flying bees and force sensors on a larger-than-life robotic bee wing flapping around in mineral oil. He says the big misconception about insect flight and perhaps what tripped up Magnan is the belief that bumblebees flap their wings up and down.

From Live Science Website

You have just googled that up [grin] don't be a d!ck, just admit if you slip. nobody's perfect [grin]

I knew that years ago , but knowing what sticklers people here
are for internet backup of statements , I googled it just for you...

And my name is not Richard , nor any variant of that name , Dawg...... [thumbup]

Spida wrote: This is ridiculus, as if this needs explaining?
If esoteric(or exoteric) knowledge is transcribed, and at the same time handed down henceforth. We have a
static copy, and a variable one. Since people can be prone to error with things of this sort. I would put my faith
in the static copy. With all things being equal that is.[/align]

I do believe you misunderstood a point...

Many place written tradition , like you here , above oral tradition...

Yet oral tradition existed before written tradition...

( I dislike repeating these things , but it seems I have to )

One of the protests by many is oral tradition can be corrupted ( can , not automatically is )

So :

1. If oral came before written , and someone is claiming oral is corrupted , which came a
long time before written , then by the time it is written down , it is corrupted , and
both are faulty...

Or :

2. Oral tradition is secretly passed down through selected lineage lines , in a very specific way ,
where the information is not corrupted , while some info leaks out and becomes corrupted , and
thought of as truth , is written down , and claimed to be the way...

3. The way the information is held pure in certain lineages , not all , is by a self referring code ,
simple in it's construct , yet with incredible depth , which allows information to be restored
which has been lost , via that self referral...backed up by books never released into the public
yet painstakingly duplicated , and passed down through the ages...

And if a mistake is made , in the duplication , the code allows the checking and restoring of
correct information , via the system itself...

The oral system would never be lost , as it would be passed through a closely chosen group ,
though the books could be lost , changed , or altered , yet restored to original form , by those
holding the code...

In lieu of books , the myths , and stories were handed down , yet the code was written in symbols
in baskets , blankets , temple walls , temple shapes , petroglyphs , wall paintings , statuary , etc...

Books as we know them today , were under the control of those with power , money , and influence ,
( including those in secret societies who did not want the info out and changed it ) , and often still are ,
although now with online publishing and internet , there is a somewhat less controlled reality...

( though now those who do choose to try to reveal that which has been hidden and passed down
orally , are often ridiculed and attempted to be silenced by those who insist on empirical evidence
or documentation , as that is the way *they* decide what is real )

Thanks , but I will sit with a native elder or aboriginal medicine person , or shaman , sharing info
and mutually documenting the oral tradition , and code , and writing in the sand or dirt , on bark ,
or hide , or in the smoke of the fire , before I trust the books...

I only link to them , or recommend some to those who need them today , because I feel certain ones
will open their minds , not close them with mental blinders into a narrow path declared by those who
think they can declare what is truth , or what is not , because it is written down...

However , each to their own...yet , a perfect example of this controlling behavior and attempted
censorship and ridicule of others is here , onsite , if one takes off the blinders...

( None of this addressed to you , specifically , Spida...you do attempt to honor others , by your
statements such as this : "This is the Model I chose however, but anyone is free to use an alternative." )

Spida wrote:

I'm going to put religion aside and explaint this "Daath" in a Universal Cosmology so that the average person can understand. Afterall, isn't that what this Forum is supposed to be for? In lieu of an esoteric pissing contest and symbolic riddles that amounts to gibberish to most.

Daath(the Abyss) is space. This space can be explained in a couple ways that I have been thinking of.

1)

Initial expansion of the Primordial point occuring at superluminal speed during the creative(Briatic)process - During the separation of the "One" into the Archetypal gender aspects of creation. After the initial expansion, the process slows and the expansion continues into the eons of Yetzirah. The initial expansion creates an unfathomable spherical lacuna (because of the speed)separating the Triad from the rest of the Sephiroth. The slowing of the expansion renders the lower seven sephiroth to be a less distant grouping.

2)

Daath could be thought of as four dimensional space itself. Daath would be the expanding space, i.e. the Big Bang of the Primordial Point, or Singularity. In which the Sephiroth undergo the process of cosmic anabolism.

As stated in the Sepher Yetzirah: 10 and not 9. 10 and not 11. 10 Holy Sephiroth. This is the Model I chose however, but anyone is free to use an alternative.

Yeah , we definitely know Da'ath differently...

Da'ath as I know it...and I have seen the raven turn white , sun turn black , went through the
wormhole , lost time in this physical dimension , and came back , on my knees , in the middle
of a country road , some twenty four years ago...then went and talked to my native elder friend
who laughed and said , "good , now go put your back against a tree" ( grounding after dimensional
journeying )...

Da'ath is the wormhole to the source , which opened when what we call the big bang occurred...

It thus contains the minimum of eleven dimensions which expand to 121 , and further...( 11 x 11 )

All information is contained in Da'ath yet in an undifferentiated state , which some would term chaos...

That information , as it became ordered , formed what we experience as the universe(s)...

The code embedded in each particle of the universe(s) , allows perception of waves as reality , and
that is the information emanating from Da'ath...

If one chose to see it as a gap , it would be a gap as in an electrical system , where a current was running...

Different perceptions , eh ?

Spida wrote:

Shawn Blackwolf wrote:

Spida wrote: I'm going to put religion aside and explaint this "Daath" in a Universal Cosmology so that the average person can understand. Afterall, isn't that what this Forum is supposed to be for? In lieu of an esoteric pissing contest and symbolic riddles that amounts to gibberish to most.

Daath(the Abyss) is space. This space can be explained in a couple ways that I have been thinking of.

1)

Initial expansion of the Primordial point occuring at superluminal speed during the creative(Briatic)process - During the separation of the "One" into the Archetypal gender aspects of creation. After the initial expansion, the process slows and the expansion continues into the eons of Yetzirah. The initial expansion creates an unfathomable spherical lacuna (because of the speed)separating the Triad from the rest of the Sephiroth. The slowing of the expansion renders the lower seven sephiroth to be a less distant grouping.

2)

Daath could be thought of as four dimensional space itself. Daath would be the expanding space, i.e. the Big Bang of the Primordial Point, or Singularity. In which the Sephiroth undergo the process of cosmic anabolism.

As stated in the Sepher Yetzirah: 10 and not 9. 10 and not 11. 10 Holy Sephiroth. This is the Model I chose however, but anyone is free to use an alternative.

Yeah , we definitely know Da'ath differently...

Da'ath as I know it...and I have seen the raven turn white , sun turn black , went through the
wormhole , lost time in this physical dimension , and came back , on my knees , in the middle
of a country road , some twenty four years ago...then went and talked to my native elder friend
who laughed and said , "good , now go put your back against a tree" ( grounding after dimensional
journeying )...

Da'ath is the wormhole to the source , which opened when what we call the big bang occurred...

It thus contains the minimum of eleven dimensions which expand to 121 , and further...( 11 x 11 )

All information is contained in Da'ath yet in an undifferentiated state , which some would term chaos...

That information , as it became ordered , formed what we experience as the universe(s)...

The code embedded in each particle of the universe(s) , allows perception of waves as reality , and
that is the information emanating from Da'ath...

If one chose to see it as a gap , it would be a gap as in an electrical system , where a current was running...

Different perceptions , eh ?

I don't have any personal experience with Daath. But the above text does remind me of hearing it referred to as a hidden dimension. I did not think of that when I commented and just gave a couple thoughts on what it might be extrapolating from Universal mechanics, plus what I read here.

Sounds like you are going into things analogous to M-Theory, and Wave/Particle Duality also. The WP Duality does remind me of how Microwave Energy is used as a medium to transmit information. Where you go from invisible non detectable waveforms that are decoded to manifest images(on a display), that can contain audio. With an added 3rd dimension and the illusion of a solid you end up with something akin to the Four Dimensional reality construct we exist in; The Matrix. Time being the fourth Dimension. Different more fundamental application with waves/particles.

Very Good , Spida !

Now we are on the same "wavelength" , basically...

In the diagram below , the bottom pair of symbols *can* be seen , among many levels ,
as particle and wave ; low number value for pair is 50...( or light wave )

Pair above them , can mean fluidic pressure and movement , or fluidic pressure and
a physical body , ( of anything , thus manifest ) , or one can mean wave over particle ,
the other can mean a wave facing a wave at 180 degrees producing a standing wave ,
or soliton...low number value for pair is 50...

Thus a wave - particle , and a 50 / 50 relation , as well...

Top two pair have values of 401 , and 302 , thus 703 ;

I Am = 21

Building = 57

Matrix = 625

= 703

Do note : Time = 624 / Matrix = 625

Dear Shawn

Please tell us what your tradition says about this matrix, why we are here, and what we aught to be doing while here. Oh... and tell us who is making it, and how we can get to know this being better.

Thanks

inMalkuth wrote:Dear Shawn

Please tell us what your tradition says about this matrix, why we are here, and what we aught to be doing while here. Oh... and tell us who is making it, and how we can get to know this being better.

Thanks

Fair questions , but way too many at once...

I have already posted many times here , including in the last thread we were in ,
what my Tradition says about the Code...of which *this* matrix is a subset...


"This is the program we are wired with , and the universe is wired with"

Why are we here ?

From a thread on another site I posted in on reincarnation , when someone asked
what the point was...and yes , I am using the Code to give the answer...

The four corner symbols , have a value of 159...

In Obri / Hebrew , by gematria :

159 = Point

The remaining symbols , equal 835...

All = 50

Things = 83

Are = 310

Related = 324

+

Life = 68

= 835

......

Interestingly :

Related = 324

Other = 324

Separate Reality = 325

And I have met some Others who live in a Separate Reality...LOL

However , there is the answer...

And , as per this thread...the top symbol on right column ,

means , among other meanings , "Reincarnation"...

That column fit together , makes the skeletal or muscular

shape of human body...the sum of all the symbols , 603 ,

equals the word "Blood" in Obri / Hebrew...

And , when we add the straight line rune Is / Isa to the column ,

meaning possible need for sacrifice , value 7...thus 610...

Interestingly , 611 = Die...

Or :

Humann Body Life And Death Cycle Code = 611

Kinda funny...



( see columns at bottom )

To me that covers two of your questions...

The why , and what to do...

The point is to see all the connections , links , relations...

To spend all our time doing so...

( then put that knowledge into use , in whatever way we will , as the unique beings we are )

I do not believe any one being is making it , yet the Code makes all being...

And it is self referring , without beginning or end...

Some , choose to call that "god" , but to me that is mistaken...

All gods , are programs of the Code...as are we , therefore anything we can think of , is from
a program within the Code...thus , by learning the Code , we approach an understanding of the
program we are , the universe(s) is / are , and the thoughts / memories / consciousness we
create and experience...

Remember , as I have said , a number of times...

Not *my* Code...I did not invent it , and I do not care if any study it , learn it , or believe it...

Hopefully , that is finally clear to you , and you will give up on trying to "butt heads" with me...

Or , harass me , or try to make me wrong...but if this does not work as an answer , I give up on you...

I have more than tried... [thumbup]