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Original post: Nero

I am attempting to place the Sumer gods upon the Tree of Life but I have reached a snag. One list I ran across has Enlil at Kether and Enki at Chokmah. I agree Enki is a perfect fit for Chokmah but I believe Anu would be a better choice for Kether. But if I do so then Enlil is left out. Any thoughts?

Original post: Qryztufre

My personal thoughts on this? Nope, ain't go none I'm waiting for you to fill in my blanks *smirk* till then here are a few links?

http://www.artideas.com/TreeOfLife/
http://www.lkwdpl.org/davincicode/
http://www.halexandria.org/dward001.htm
http://www.geocities.com/siaionmorningstar/kbase16.html

That last one actually places Enki & Enlil (and skips anu)...the first three I'm not even sure are completely relevant *shrug*

I'll look again (grab me on Yahoo & gimme more key words so I can expand my search)
Q

Original post: edparadise

Well, it's an interesting question, anyways.

Anu and Enlil are both given "heaven" or "air" or "all-father" attributes, but Enlil also has many Earth and Rulership attributes, as well. In general, I like more "particularized" references to be lower down the chart, and more abstract one's higher, as a general idea. In this sense Enlil is maybe to much of a ruler entity, and might be more in line with Chesed?

The Chokmah attribute is always finicky, I think, because of the above. I myself am all for Thoth/Hermes kinds of entities, and I like sticking some of their attributes to Chokmah, too, but again, only in an un-particular way (in the sense that Thoth/Logos might fit, but Thoth/Hermes might not). Enki strikes me as being a little too particular in this sense, as well, properly belonging perhaps to Hod (where perhaps you have Marduk?)

But those are just my own prejudices resonating with the question...

- ep

Original post: Skeptismo118

Have any of you ever considered trying to catagorize Chinese literature by the Perriodic Table of Elements? It's basically the same thing that you're doing here.

If you want to approach Sumerian religion and magic let the Kabbalistic jibber-jabber go. Approach the material on its own terms and from within its own emic worldview rather then try to tack it down to a system that had nothing to do with it.

Original post: edparadise

Skeptismo118:

Although I admit that I didn't provide as much content as Nero was hoping for, I can at least attribute this: it is not a valid deduction from the statement that two systems are different to the conclusion that their inter-relationship is not informative.

Furthermore, as jibber-jabber as it might be, the Qabalistic Tree-of-Life is a fairly abstract philosophical system. Any group of ideas which we can argue for having some kinds of coherency and completion can be used to organize correspondences. An elemental paradigm, a plantetary one, etc.; etc.

In this sense, the metaphor for the Sephiroth of the Periodic table is incorrect. The Periodic table doesn't have a basic array of linguistic meanings with which to organize other linguistic elements. You could supply one however, working from the purely abstract meanings given from the table, in the same way you could work from other forms - like pentagrams and constellations - either in terms of chemical relationships, numerological divisions, mystical secrets of Planck's Constant - and once this was accomplished, yes, you could assign attributions from Chinese Literature or anything else.

I don't want to hijack Nero's thread and turn it into a debate about this sort of thing, but I felt it should be said in defense of the question.

BTW, it really was an interesting question - even though I didn't help answer it (said the Little Red Hen who didn't help to bake the bread) - have you made any progress with it?

- ep

Original post: Ra-Razal

I see Anu at Kether and Ki on Malkuth

I see Enlil and Enki as the two sides of the tree with Enlil as the male aspect of Saturn(lord of the planets)whos son is Ninurta or Nergal(Geburah).

Remember the seven change manifestation though the Zodiac like a rotating wheel.

So for instance, Ninurta would Mars in Leo, While Anath would be Venus in Aries, Inanna would be Venus in Taurus.

i see the planets as prior attempts at creation, but they failed and split into something else (and were prolly next in line to burn out... like storms(emotional storms) on venus, no water(mercy to balance severity) on mars...

Original post: Nero

I am not going to get into a debate about can or should I place the sumer gods upon the Tree of Life. The tree makes an excellent ordering system across the board, if it didn't we wouldn't be able to place the egyptian gods upon the tree as we do. In 777 Crowley puts a lot of hindu gods upon the tree and path which in my mind would be much harder to do than what I am looking at. Case closed.

Regardless, here is a rough draft of what I am looking at. Any comments or ideas are welcome. (the comma means it is an alternate I am considering) Sumer Gods

1. An (Dumuzi)
2. Enlil
3. Ninhursag, Aruru (Ereshkigal)
4. Ninlil
5. Marduk, Ninurta
6. Utu
7. Inanna (Neti)
8. Enki
9. Nanna
10. Ki

Original post: edparadise

I'm sure you've done more research on this than I have; I don't feel qualified to comment. But I'm interested, so I'll just ask questions suggested to me by the associations that came up when I was looking at your question before (I'm pretty much just looking at the references in Lurker and Whitcomb, although I also checked the 777 correlations):

Ninlil for Binah? I guess I'm looking for a Demeter kind of connection, and the husband/wife thing hints at the syzygy sort of thing which seems so helpful. I'm not an expert in the mythology, are the rest of her associations just not up to snuff?

Maybe I'm being too planetary, but why not Marduk or Enki for Chesed? I guess I can see Marduk as more active than ruling, so I see at least that part of it... Actually, my instinct is actually Marduk for Hod (as the supreme magician), with Enki perhaps moved up to here. From the question above, I would guess that a lot of this was in the mix of your process - just like to know what stacks against these associations -

Love how the An - Ki thing works out.

(btw also loved the comment about the book in the recent nec thread).

-ep

Original post: Skeptismo118

It might be worth re-defning the thread a bit towards Mesopotamian rather then Sumerian Gods, since some of the figures being discusses aren't Sumerian but Babylonian.

Original post: Nero

[QUOTE=Skeptismo118]It might be worth re-defning the thread a bit towards Mesopotamian rather then Sumerian Gods, since some of the figures being discusses aren't Sumerian but Babylonian.[/QUOTE]
Outside of Marduk I believe all of them are Sumer gods. Have I made a mistake somewhere?

Original post: PaulS

[QUOTE=Nero]Regardless, here is a rough draft of what I am looking at. Any comments or ideas are welcome. (the comma means it is an alternate I am considering)Sumer Gods

1. An (Dumuzi)
2. Enlil
3. Ninhursag, Aruru (Ereshkigal)
4. Ninlil
5. Marduk, Ninurta
6. Utu
7. Inanna (Neti)
8. Enki
9. Nanna
10. Ki

Outside of Marduk I believe all of them are Sumer gods. Have I made a mistake somewhere?[/QUOTE]An is Sumerian (Dumuzi is Babylonian or Assyrian)
Ninhursag is the late Sumerian and early Babylonian version of Ki and Aruru is Babylonian goddess of the Earth, Ereshkigal is a different deity - goddess of the underworld and completely different from Ki.
Nanna is Babylonian - or very late Sumerian and is the turning of Inanna into a male form as the feminine lost importance.
PaulS

Original post: Marquise De Sade

Sumer Gods

1. An (Dumuzi)
2. Enlil
3. Ninhursag, Aruru (Ereshkigal)
4. Ninlil
5. Marduk, Ninurta
6. Utu
7. Inanna (Neti)
8. Enki
9. Nanna
10. Ki

While I do love sumerian mythology I do not know exactly where to start with it so I don't really think I'am qualified. However I really find this intresting, and I was wondering how are you going to use this system?

Anyway this is how I see it:

Keter:I would say this is for Anu unless An, and Anu are the same thing. I don't know however why you put Dumuzi there since as stated above, he is a diffrent God.

Binah:IT would have been better if you had just put Ereshkigal instead of the other two dietys you put there.

Enki I believe could also be good for Yesode.

Anyway I don;t know alot of Sumerian mythology but this is what I see. If I repeated something then I'am sorry for the mistake.

Original post: Kerethial

In my opinion they dont belong to Tree Of Life classification because after all they are thousands years older than Kabbalah.

Original post: darkstar7931

Yeah, you're right.

Original post: edparadise

Guys:

The Roman alphabet wasn't around when the Sumerian pantheon was being "originated" either. But it's still useful to spell the names so that we can talk about them.

Just think the next thought for yourself and you'll be wiser.

-ep

Original post: maddkhan

i have no clue how ur making this tree of urs....or these connections....

even logically enki is before enlil as hes the older brother and two house....anu/aulul while enlil is limited to one/an....dumizi is a child of a god ....not anu himself...nanna is innana parent so why she lower???

this thing is all confuseing and wierd

Original post: Marquise De Sade

i have no clue how ur making this tree of urs....or these connections....

even logically enki is before enlil as hes the older brother and two house....anu/aulul while enlil is limited to one/an....dumizi is a child of a god ....not anu himself...nanna is innana parent so why she lower???

this thing is all confuseing and wierd

Its not a family tree. its the kabbalistic tree of life. Each sphere is used to represent diffrent aspects...

Original post: Ra-Razal

you know, even though chockmah means wisdom, i think it is more importantly the yang force on the tree, where binah is the yin. so Anki should possibly be in kether (yin and yang together, unity) and then when they split apart for the two sides of the tree, Ki would be in binah and An in chokmah, because An is represented as a creative deity. Ive actually done workings with An and he gives the image of sperm, and a desert with a fountain of water in the middle forming an oasis.

Considering that most of the offspring of the gods replace them in the future generations, enlil and enki could be the offspring of the yin and yang representing mercy/severity, so of course enlil would be in geburah, and his offspring, those such as nergal and ninurta would also be in geburah, as emanations of the tree inside a tree? Perhaps Enki would be in chesed, as his offspring inanna would be in netzach, and dumuzi(inanna's lover) and adad(enlil's son) would both be aspects of malkuth as relations to inanna and enlil.

anyone got anything else to add?

Original post: LadyHydralisk

I just stuck Ningishzidda at Kether and Ninhursag at Chokmah.


Kether â?? N I N G I SH Z I D D A=138
Chokmah â?? O M N I N H U R S A G =129 (Ninhursag â?? 101)



Using this I would leave out Enki completely, and Marduk, deeming them both Qlippothic, not Sephirothic. Marduk as CHORONZON probably or something else...Enki as the dead world, probably master of the shells echoing into the future from the distant past.



Ningishzidda is "lord of the good tree" doesn't it make sense for him to be in both Kether and Malkuth at the same time?

I mean he even looks like the snake that lives in the tree in those old etchings.






blah blah blah blah



doesn't really matter the Sephiroth is shit anyways...driving me fucking crazy today...broke as fuck piece of crap alchemical engine...

Original post: frater luciferi

enki would be related to neptune- closest astrological planet. ruled by pisces. what element relates to neptune? i think you would be better off trying to relate nephillic angels to the orbs of the kaballa. the four horsemen fit on the four corners of the towers(from golden dawn interpritations.

one nephillic angel is azazel. azael. interpritation would be easier to substantiate that way- as i know that their might be esoteric links between the zohar and the ancient texts of sumerian theology. would be far easier to briidge the gap in that manner.

Original post: Raal

1 An
2 Ki
3 Enlil
4 Enki/Ea
5 Ninazu
6 Inanna
7 Ereshkigal
8 Ningishzidda
9 Sin
10 Dumuzi (the fool)

maybe Im wrong just shook it out of my sleeve and basically dont care much for it, anyway.

Ng is even only there cause some of my friends favour him.

Original post: Suxur-Mash596

[QUOTE=LadyHydralisk;282011]I just stuck Ningishzidda at Kether and Ninhursag at Chokmah.


Kether â?? N I N G I SH Z I D D A=138
Chokmah â?? O M N I N H U R S A G =129 (Ninhursag â?? 101)



Using this I would leave out Enki completely, and Marduk, deeming them both Qlippothic, not Sephirothic. Marduk as CHORONZON probably or something else...Enki as the dead world, probably master of the shells echoing into the future from the distant past.



Ningishzidda is "lord of the good tree" doesn't it make sense for him to be in both Kether and Malkuth at the same time?

I mean he even looks like the snake that lives in the tree in those old etchings.






blah blah blah blah



doesn't really matter the Sephiroth is shit anyways...driving me fucking crazy today...broke as fuck piece of crap alchemical engine...[/QUOTE]

WTF are you talking about????

BTW, Ningizhidda is gate keeper of the 7 DESCENDING STEPS into the underworld of Ganzir, domain of Queen Erishkigal. Now wouldnt those 7 DESCENDING steps be much more alligned with the Qlipphoth than the Sephiroth????

I think so, so think before you type next time, ok??

Marduk and Enki as Qlipphothic? This is based on what I may add? Some fluffy type of ideal, because Marduk was and still is attributed to Jupiter, which I most assure you is sephirothic. And Enki has a split coorespondance actually. Seeing how his name is Lord of Earth, he has a station at Malkuth and the gateway to the Tree. He also has his more focused and potent station at Chokmah as well. And it is a theory (which I WILL TEST SOON) that Enlil is stationed within Chokmah as well, and if this proves to be true, it may reveal a duelistic aspect of Chokmah.

This is how I have USED (and not just sat around speculating like Im sure most of you outside of NERO have been doing) the coorespondance between the Tree of Life and the Sumerian/Babylonian celestial progression. One note, they DO have a deep connection, WHERE DO YOU THINK THE GROUNDWORK FOR ALL QABALISTIC THEORY WAS ATTAINED??? BABYLONIA!

ENKI = Malkuth

NANNA = Yesod

NEBO/NABU = Hod

INANNA/ISHTAR = Netzach

SHAMMASH/UTU = Tiphereth

NERGAL = Geburrah

MARDUK = Chesed

NINIB/ADAR = Binah

ENKI = Chokmah

ANU = Kether

Original post: LadyHydralisk

Wow why don't you completely freak out next time?

I'm sorry you have such a hardon for Marduk, but frankly that isn't my problem. Marduk's not a true god, so you know what, you're right - I wouldn't even place him in the Kingdom of Shells.

Having a book education is no substitute for experimenting and pursuing modernized terms and goals. Are you aware of the current trend towards assigning Da'at as a Sephiroth? Nevermind, you're probably too wrapped up in your own little god fantasy world you think placing the Sumerian gods on the tree of life has any real bearing on popular Occultism. It's just a fun thing to do.

Anyways take an Advil or something and don't come back, you sound like you need it.

Original post: Suxur-Mash596

[QUOTE=LadyHydralisk;282921]Wow why don't you completely freak out next time?

I'm sorry you have such a hardon for Marduk, but frankly that isn't my problem. Marduk's not a true god, so you know what, you're right - I wouldn't even place him in the Kingdom of Shells.

Having a book education is no substitute for experimenting and pursuing modernized terms and goals. Are you aware of the current trend towards assigning Da'at as a Sephiroth? Nevermind, you're probably too wrapped up in your own little god fantasy world you think placing the Sumerian gods on the tree of life has any real bearing on popular Occultism. It's just a fun thing to do.

Anyways take an Advil or something and don't come back, you sound like you need it.[/QUOTE]


Wow, youre quite the "witty" little woman arent you? Marduk isnt a real god, yep...since you say so it MUST be true. Did you gather this relevant info in whatever Ravenwolf fluff book you presently have shoved neatly up your ignorant and likely ill informed ass?

Dont play with the real deal gods, its very apparent you gather your info from questionable BOOKS and not from actual use. And about being wrapped up in actually applying the info I have learned in a system that has been proven to work effectively by many upon many of people. But someone who know as much (nothing) as you would very much have known this.

Im curious, why do you think its such a waste of time to map out coorelation between Sumer/Babylon and the Qabbalah? Is it a complete lack of understanding that there are methods and paths varying from your own? Or is it you fear the actual potency of this system and its various "non-existant" gods?

And BTW, madam, the info I have gather is from ACTUAL WORKINGS and not from memorization of various texts. It appears you, my dear, are one the typical people in the occult who assume their word is the final say in ALL matters, even matters they know NOTHING OF!

No Advil will alleviate the headache caused from hubris filled self exalting people who talk alot of non-sense. Id prefer to also read and interpret the sheer ridiculousness of your words, a reminder of what direction I could have gone before if I wasnt so self scrutinizing.

Somethng you may want to do sometime, that delusional outlook at yourself may be finally seen.....

Original post: LadyHydralisk

I really pissed you off didn't I? Glad to hear it. People need to start thinking about their world before just believing everything they read. I might add- amusing that you probably havn't read half the books I've studied, well over ten thousand and counting. I focus mainly on the sciences and the natural world, not occult books. I have a few in my permanent collection pertaining mostly to alchemy, oddly enough...

So that's the real story. But I consider myself an avid practitioner, daily experimentation is my way, hands on work and hard work at that. Don't take my word for it...go study my other posts, you'll find the bulk of my Ceremonial Magick experimentation is divulged here in detail. I keep the good stuff to myself though - might end up in the hands of a little monkey like yourself and spatter your brains on the wall, can't have that, they're hard to clean up. lol

The fact that you state yourself you're disturbed merely by words and what you call "hubris" belies to me that you yourself are not very developed - you havn't even left the starting gate. You're probably the type that gets all worked up when they get your order wrong at Starbucks...hahaha!

I don't have time for you either, so enjoy the rest of your life, if you ever get it going there...good luck.

lol