OccultForum.org

Original post: Overflowed_Buffer

How many people here believe that Ceremonial Magic is just the act of bring things out of our mind and dealing with them them like they are external beings; that the beings we evoke are actually just figments from within our mind?

I personally do not believe in such a thing...how about you?

Original post: MaeveQ

I think those beings do exist out of us.

Original post: 9~6~3

[QUOTE=Overflowed_Buffer]How many people here believe that Ceremonial Magic is just the act of bring things out of our mind and dealing with them them like they are external beings; that the beings we evoke are actually just figments from within our mind?

I personally do not believe in such a thing...how about you?[/QUOTE] Hrm... I think it's both external and internal. I also think there's not really any solid way to tell for sure.

Long answer: Perhaps some of these beings are external, autonomous entities with a mind and will of their own. Called to a human being by concentration and vibration, and a ceremony that acts like a key in a lock, turning the tumblers to unlock another realm and bring them forth, they make the choice (I don't believe they are forced) to answer the call and provide aid.
Perhaps they are constructs of a mage's mind, brought forth through careful introspection and self-knowledge forged by years of study and practice and concentration.

The only entities I know that exist externally of my mind are the two that I have dealt with on a level that I know my mind couldn't conjure alone. I have dealt with a few that I could conceivably see as being constructs of my own.

Short answer: I don't know.

Original post: Overflowed_Buffer

Part of that would rely on the magician having lots of knowledge under his belt, though.

Original post: MaeveQ

Ok, lets take Goetics as an example. Why would a portion of our brain would want its sigil made into some metal and be placed in a place where other people can see? Why would portions of our brain make deals?

Original post: Overflowed_Buffer

So you do not believe it?

Original post: MaeveQ

I believe that they exist freely out of us.

Original post: Anathema_Oracle

From a purely psychological level, representing our perceived thought forms as external beings makes sense.

I guess you can have imaginary friends, but can your imaginary friends have imaginary friends??

(Do cyborgs dream of electric sheep) lol

Original post: Overflowed_Buffer

It makes sense...until you start throwing in the complexity of the ceremonial magic rituals and practices. In addition, is it purely coincidence that all of our thought forms would materialize in the same exact way (I refer to the way that the spirits are supposed to manifest as a horse, or a hooded man etc)? Is it luck that we all have the same hierarchy of "thought forms?"

Seems more nonsense than sense once you consider everything.

Original post: Nalyd23

[QUOTE=MaeveQ]Ok, lets take Goetics as an example. Why would a portion of our brain would want its sigil made into some metal and be placed in a place where other people can see? Why would portions of our brain make deals?[/QUOTE]Because you have fashioned that portion of your brain in that way. The subconscious is strange like that. It communicates it's message to the conscious in ways we don't seem to understand, even in the Magickal community. Think of multiple personality complex.
I do not believe in anything but I will take a position similar to 9~6~3 here. In my experiences I have tested a lot of this subconscious mind-f*cking and realized that it may be an interaction between our nervous system and some sort of energy "out there". It may be our minds forming (in-formation) "something" out of a formless chaos. We shape this neutral energy into a form we can get a grasp on. Just like with everything else we perceive, it is relative to the observer or experiencer. When we evoke an "entity" we, to a certain extent, may be manipulating some aspect of the EMS and projecting our desire onto it. Now, whether this "energy" has it's own intelligence may not matter and we may never know for sure. I personally think it is neutral and we ascribe intelligence to it. Our subconscious mind uses this "energy" to manifest itself, sometimes physically, to convey it's message. If an "entity" tells you to put a sigil somewhere that may be because you expect that subconsciously. We "create" the attributes of these "entities". I talk about this here as well, it may be a little clearer - The Spectral Theory of High/Low Magick.
Also, and I have recommended reading this on several occasions on the forums, check out Liber O by Aleister Crowley, specifically the introduction. Seems this is overlooked in the Magick/Occult world. I personally think this agnostic point of view is required if you want to test the results of your Magickal workings. This is all just my opinion. I seek more questions not answers. Or, should I say, I am seeking the right questions to ask. Be ever weary of the "true-believer", the Mage is a Fool who can't, and won't, see the Fool for the Mage.:mrgreen:

Original post: Nalyd23

[QUOTE=Overflowed_Buffer]It makes sense...until you start throwing in the complexity of the ceremonial magic rituals and practices. In addition, is it purely coincidence that all of our thought forms would materialize in the same exact way (I refer to the way that the spirits are supposed to manifest as a horse, or a hooded man etc)? Is it luck that we all have the same hierarchy of "thought forms?"

Seems more nonsense than sense once you consider everything.[/QUOTE]Ask yourself why we all have similar experiences, then ask yourself if we really do have similar experiences.

Original post: Overflowed_Buffer

Well, I find it odd that when reading accounts of evocations of a particular being, they all have the same shape of manifestation.

I could not believe that our mind is the source of all of these beings. These beings have the power to do things our mind simply cannot, and if it could, why would there not be a magick on just doing that. A person who had the ability of all of these beings would be God, or at least right on up there in power.

I have to agree with Konstantinos here, as he states in the first chapter of his book.

"...armchair theorists ... have, in the past century,
attempted to explain occult phenomena using the science of the time, neglecting
the fact that occult science is a science of the future. As a result of the efforts
of these armchair occultists, all sorts of psychological theories about magic
have surfaced. These concepts are hopelessly flawed, as their creators were
basically guessing about a topic they didn't understand.
...
The theory that entities only exist in the magician's mind originated with the
armchair occultists of history. According to them, evocations do nothing but
bring these entities "up" from one's subconscious, and "out" into seemingly
external appearance. Followers of this teaching feel all information gained by
evocations is the result of some type of telepathy, and that materializations witnessed
by a number of practitioners are the result of some type of telepathic projection
on the part of the magician performing the ritual. To someone who has
never practiced magic, this concept could seem feasible. But to a trained magician,
the flaws of this theory are immediately obvious, for a number of reasons."

I will not put his reasons on here, as it is available for download at this site and I could very well make this post more boring that it currently is. The point is, I agree with him.

Original post: MaeveQ

I agree too. The more I search and learn about spirits the more I believe that they exist on their own.

Original post: Nalyd23

All I will say to that Overflowed Buffer is that I am speaking from my own experiences and I am not an armchair theorist basing anything on mere speculative nonsense. I base it on my own experienced nonsense. I have had these experiences myself and guess what? I am not convinced. You really can't speak about anyones else's experiences but your own. That is why I suggested you ask yourself if YOU really do experience any of it the same way as anyone else. We may agree with each other "in theory" but in practice it becomes something else. I have seen some actually convince themselves that they have experienced the same thing as someone else has in the course of a short conversation by modifying their model and changing the wording. Hell I have even done this myself. Our models will never accurately depict our experiences to others because we can never be sure we are using the same model, we just agree to it. Why not question that? Find out where that Magick takes you. It's funny how your own memories of events can be altered in the course of a conversation just through alterations in wording. Hypnosis maybe?:shock:
[QUOTE=MaeveQ]The more I search and learn about spirits the more I believe that they exist on their own.[/QUOTE]The more I search, the less convinced I am. See, that may be our proof that we do not experience the same things.

EDIT : Actually, the more I think about this, how many here have actually experimented with changing the "standard form" of an "entity" at will? When you tap this area of Magick you may get what I am on about here. Then again, you may only lie to yourself, like I do, to convince yourself that you get what I am on about here. There is Magick in that act of lying, it's called communication.:mrgreen:

Original post: MaeveQ

Well I dont think spirits have a definite shape. So they may appear to you in many shapes. You can will them to change it. It's your perception after all. If they manifest physically, I dont know about that. Everyone doesnt necessarily percieve them the same shape/way. But this doesnt surely mean that they are our creation.

Original post: Overflowed_Buffer

Nalyd, I didn't mean to imply that you were an armchair theorist, I appologize.

However, while your argument is very well thought out and challenging for me to disagree with, you failed to mention the part about such power being beyond our simple minds. We may lie to ourselves about what happened and such, or we may not. Who is to say? I don't think that it applies to all of us, as many of the practioners here use a journal. After an evocation, grounding and then writing in your journal should provide an unbiased and therefore untainted view of what actually went on.

Original post: Nalyd23

Good one. I tend to think our own powers are beyond our simple minds but that is another day for debate. Yes the famous Magickal diary. I quit keeping one about 3 years ago because at the time I came to a realization of what it's purpose was, and again, another day for debate on the pros and cons of the Magickal diary, hmm, maybe a new thread. I may take this practice up again soon as I plan on getting into some new areas myself. I have mixed feelings on the journal/diary but you have made a good point out of it.

Original post: Overflowed_Buffer

I personally do not use one simply because I have not that many evocations or rituals under my belt. However, when I do make a formal evocation, which I must do soon for my own reasons, I will properly take notes and report everything I am allowed on this site.

Original post: Nalyd23

OK Overflowed Buffer, you inspired me to open a thread on it - Magickal Diary : Pros and Cons.

Original post: Overflowed_Buffer

Me? Provide any form of inspiration? ....How peculiar.;-)

Original post: fiat_lux_777

[QUOTE=Overflowed_Buffer]How many people here believe that Ceremonial Magic is just the act of bring things out of our mind and dealing with them them like they are external beings; that the beings we evoke are actually just figments from within our mind?

I personally do not believe in such a thing...how about you?[/QUOTE]
93

The question of the objective reality of the spirits/demons etc is often argued. In the end, the answer doesn't matter, because the entity behaves as if it were separate! As the good Rabbi says (;)) "Of course it's all in your mind - you just have no idea how big your mind really is!"

There is no clear demarcation between objectivity and subjectivity - what is objective to me may be subjective to you - it's all a matter of perspective.

93 93/93

Todd

Original post: Anathema_Oracle

I bet the demons wouldn't think it was amusing to consider them flights of fancy...I'd be offended if someone thought I was just a figment of their imagination...

Original post: 9~6~3

[QUOTE=Anathema_Oracle]I bet the demons wouldn't think it was amusing to consider them flights of fancy...I'd be offended if someone thought I was just a figment of their imagination...[/QUOTE] I disagree. I think not only would they find it amusing, they'd probably have a good belly laugh over it. That's how I would react, anyway.

And I'd be offended if someone thought I was just a fig newton of their imagination...

Original post: LadyHydralisk

Actually, I believe they are both. That they are at once projected from within us but are also external. I also believe they are seperate intelligences.

Original post: Overflowed_Buffer

LadyHydralisk, I do not see how that could make sense. If they were within us, how could they be from outside of us and how could they haev their own thoughts and ideas? Wouldn't that be like saying that the sepheroth are inside of us? I understand that people could argue this up and down, but if the astral plane, for example, was inside of us, and I wanted to meet you there, whose mind would we be in? There are too many flaws.

Fiat, I think it is very important whether they are internal or external, simply because if they are internal, there is really little point to going through all the work of Ceremonial Magic. If they are external, then we all have the power to do so much more, with their help. If we were just dealing with ourselves, there are certain things that are just not possible. However, entities outside of us would have such power to accomplish these impossible deeds.

I don't think the demons would care too much. However, if we start taking evocations lightly and without caution, they would not be against tearing us apart. I personally would treat something from inside me like I treat myself. I would joke with it, walk over and touch it, just have fun...if I did that to a demon the consequences would be less fun.