OccultForum.org

Original post: Anubis RainHawk

[QUOTE=Frater Manjet]I can see where you are coming from here Rin, and I mean absolutely no disrespect by posing my contrary opinions.I have had to evoke many beings who were very unwilling to participate. These have been primarily such beings as the Cacodaemons of the Watchtowers among others. These beings do not wish to be bound by my will and will resist every attempt to do so in various means as per their different natures. They will attempt to connive, seduce, bequile, beg, resorting to anything to retain their influence.

I find these operations a vital part of my growth and development as a magickian and a person as a whole. Defeating those traits that are undesirable within us is never easy. Such things as restriction, obsessions, compulsions etc... do not go quietly. Some are easier than others granted but they all resist.
[/QUOTE]
Frater Manjet posted this on the Witchcraft forum and I was wondering why you would force spirits to do your bidding. Why would this make you a stronger magickian? I am really confused. Is it the goal of a magickian to control? You can tell that I know very little about Ceremonial Magick, so I was hoping that someone could shed light on this issue. Thanks

Anubis RainHawk

Original post: MaeveQ

Magick is a bit about willpower. So when your willpower is stronger than the spirit's willpower I guess that makes you more powerful. And since spirits are mystical/magickal beings, it would be nice to have control over them.

Original post: Qryztufre

Take this lightly as I'm rather new...

Simply 'asking' will not do, with many of the powers one must deal with in CM. In this respect it can be VERY differnt then Witchcraft.

It is my understanding that you must demand of the spirits in order to get them to comply because many of them (mainly demons, fallen angles, and geotia) tend to be liars, or will bend the meaning of your intent fer very little reason other then shits & giggles. Others simply wish to not help mere mortals. Yet sometimes it's these entities one must work with in order to accomplish what one wishes. So to get them to comply you MUST force them. Now I am sure there are some entities that a magickian can chat it up with and the entity will do favors for them...but this is not the case in most instances as far as I can tell and I for one would likely not trust even the 'nicest' of spirits unless I've gotten word from others that the spirit in question was trust worthy.

Q

Original post: MuRdeR

[QUOTE=Qryztufre]Take this lightly as I'm rather new...

Simply 'asking' will not do, with many of the powers one must deal with in CM. In this respect it can be VERY differnt then Witchcraft.

It is my understanding that you must demand of the spirits in order to get them to comply because many of them (mainly demons, fallen angles, and geotia) tend to be liars, or will bend the meaning of your intent fer very little reason other then shits & giggles. Others simply wish to not help mere mortals. Yet sometimes it's these entities one must work with in order to accomplish what one wishes. So to get them to comply you MUST force them. Now I am sure there are some entities that a magickian can chat it up with and the entity will do favors for them...but this is not the case in most instances as far as I can tell and I for one would likely not trust even the 'nicest' of spirits unless I've gotten word from others that the spirit in question was trust worthy.

Q[/QUOTE]
Nice point of view

Original post: Was I Deleted, Again?

The other view (which is not magic in my opinion but rather self-help) is that these entities are the personification of the magician's psyche: that these boogie men live only inside or "within" the magician.

So, like Di Milo explains in his interview contained somewhere in the Forum, he wanted a job but had to overcome his procratination. He performed a ceremony and a car was given to him so he had no way to rationalize his procrastination/laziness. So, was it more important for him to have the car (to accept a job)? Or to conquer himself?

Well, thus is the conundrum of anyone who spell begs isn't it? Can one lead to the other? Can a car lead to self-mastery? Can a return and bind lead to higher self-actualisation? Yes, IMHO. But if you ask for a car or a return and binding of someone then you only get one side of the argument shouted at you - usually by people who claim self-mastery but show themselves otherwise in understanding. Those ones whose focus is on the finger pointed at the heavens rather than the celestrial beauty itself: as within so without.

So, in another paradigm of "summoning a spirit," this is a way for the magician to take charge of himself, himself, ultimately by himself.

JQP
....though the heavens fall.

Original post: Fr. Qim

There is another angle to this question as well. That being, what namely ARE spirits and what is the nature of man? If you take the point of veiw that man is but a lowly earth dweller, and the spirits are pure beings, then the idea of "forcing a spirit against its will" becomes very odd and troubling. This is not really the ceremonial magick way of looking at things. You have to keep in mind here that "spirits" are not quite the same as "gods". As God(s), or the reflection of God(s), human beings are, in their innermost nature, the pinnacle of the cosmos from the perspective of the magician. Spirits are those forces or beings that are the driving powers behind, or the symbols of, all things present in the manifested univers. These agents are therefore within the power of the magician to order and command to his will. If you require contol of a spirit, as a magician you will bring it into line in order to accomplish your work. Under this model, forcing a reclaculent spirit to your will is nothing more than exercising your natural rights as a divine force.

This does not necesarily mean that the magician is always right. Thus the main danger of the magician is error and his greatest gift knowledge. I feel this perspective casts the Thelemic injunction to find your true Will, and do it in a different light. Under this perspective it is possible to say that spirits do not have a Will, outside of the natural function bestowed upon them by creation.

Original post: Fr. Qim

At the risk of running on at the mouth about this, there is a complimentary point that I feel I should bring up. Crowley once wrote that the spirits are nothing more than portions of the magician's conciousness that he wishes to bring under his command. The question is then inevitably raised, "But does this mean its all in my mind." To which the answer is, "Yes its all in your mind, but so is everything else, you've just never imagined how encompasing your mind really is."