OccultForum.org

Original post: Qryztufre

The ATP Experience (Introduction)

Iâ??m planning some group Astral Projection projects, Lucid meetings, shared dream recall and some OOBE experiments. Iâ??ll explain it all below.


* The Lucid Experience (Stage I)
â??--> (A) A group discussion to formulate a basic Lucid Dream scenario will take place followed by...
â??--> (B) Lucid Dreaming experiments will take place at a set time, but as time is an illusion the actual time frame will beone week. The point of this project is to give a general overview of a dream and then expand it based upon email submissions.


* The Dreaming Experience (Stage II)
â??--> (A) A group discussion to formulate a basic dream scenario will take place followed by..
â??--> (B) Dreaming experiments will take place at a set time, but as time is an illusion the actual time frame will be one week. The point of this project is to give a general overview of a dream and then expand it based upon email submissions.


* The Astral Experience (Stage III)
â??--> (A) This will involve the creation of a mini-Astral Temple. Details of the temple will be discussed as a group effort at a later time.
â??--> (B) All experiments done will take place within said temple. Most experiments will be of the "Who/What" variety, but may be expanded later. And while related to the OF astral Temple, the place will likely not be as complex as the original.


* The OBE Experience (Stage IV)
â??--> (A) The OBE Experience will be hosted at My (BrokenIris & Myselfâ??s) Home or yard. An object will be placed at a given point within or around our house. The goal will be to find it and then submit the answers to me via Email/PM. The item will be out for a week as to give all playing time to find it & get back with me.
â??--> (B) An OBE meeting will take place at a given time (likely 3 times) on a particular day and will be at the same location as the object you were looking for above. Email submissions should include any and all details as to who else you saw, as well as any other details of the location.


[indent]Note1: The poll is OPEN so your name will be shown, you can also vote for more then one. Please ONLY vote in the stages you actually plan on participating in. Thanks!


Note2: You do not need to vote to participate, but please if you are not gunna participate then do not vote

[/indent]

Itâ??ll be several weeks before any of these are actually started. I just wanted to get the intro outta the way and find the people that are interested and get input from them as well as allow plenty of time for planning.


All input of the Experience will be private (emailed to me [perplex_pixie@yahoo.com] or via PMâ??s) so that the answers are not skewed and to disallow lying based on the input from others. This means that if you plan to participate youâ??ll need to open up & gimme your email address (if/when you submit). Once the time limit is up on the individual Experience Iâ??ll tally like (and unlike) results and post them for all to share.


BrokenIris will be my Co-Author in this project (as Iâ??m hoping to be overwhelmed with submissions).


Place all general questions, comments, advice, criticisms, etc. within this thread (but be sure to add in which stage you are asking about so it can be properly answered). I've already sent this plan out to a few people via PM to get input and have made some changes. If you are one of those people and I did not add your idea(s) PLEASE post them again in here as I'll likely end up adding them.
Q

Original post: nikaem

I am 'just' relearning to get my dream lucidity back - I got an awareness glimpse last night.

Do we have to fully master it before joining or can we sign up after the project has already started?

And since I also suck at astral projection (lol) could I use the hidden object to train my rv skills? I wouldn't post possible results on here but would send you a pm or something.

Original post: Qryztufre

The great nikaem has spoken:
I am 'just' relearning to get my dream lucidity back - I got an awareness glimpse last night.

That's cool!
Do we have to fully master it before joining or can we sign up after the project has already started?
I'm a beginner, so I guess you can be too But yeah, you can join later, now, or never...though the more the merrier. You can sign up then try half of the stuff, or even none of it.

And since I also suck at astral projection (lol) could I use the hidden object to train my rv skills?
You suck at AP? Hehe...I've only successfully recall a handful myself. I'm OK with dreaming (or at least used to be) I can LUCID a bit at will...so those won't be all that hard (for me) and I've only gone OOBE officially once (three times but the other two MAY have been dreams).

I wouldn't post possible results on here but would send you a pm or something.
I'm not sure for all of the experiments, but many will be PM/Email replies as I don't want anyone's replies to skew the results of you...once the initial replies are in & tallied it'll be opened up fer discussion. Another side effect of this is if your reply was WAY off base or something BrokenIris & myself can discuss it with you behind closed doors to see what went wrong or whatever...Also, with a closed reply response it'll allow those that failed save face by names not being mentioned.

All in all, there may be kinks, and this thread is to try working some of them out & allow a pre-discussion to aleiviate any questions and to expand the project before it starts. So whatever your level if you are willing to at least give it a try then you should try it. The worst that would happen is you'd fail.
Q

Original post: nikaem

I'm game, I think.

I've been recently thinking of a way to create a 'lucid and timeless dreaming space' to meet people from different timezones in - this could be the opportunity to experiment

I can't wait to see what (else?) will be covered.

The great nikaem... lol.

Original post: Qryztufre

[QUOTE=nikaem]

I've been recently thinking of a way to create a 'lucid and timeless dreaming space' to meet people from different timezones in - this could be the opportunity to experiment


[/QUOTE]Tell us what ya got (your ideas for it & what not) & we can maybe work something out. I'm willing to discuss any & all ideas for the project (for any stage) the more options the better the overall results will be...as I may be great at doing A and you may excell at B so if we have A B & C then so much the better, it means we all get to play
Q

Original post: 93Pryme

I'm in! I've always wanted to astral project and have oobes. And with other people to talk to and get tips and recommendations on the forum, I'm definitely pumped!

Original post: Calintz

Can you elaborate somewhat Q. To enter you need to be able to actually do these lil tricks consciously, yes? For example, you have to be able to project and come back with memory of it? 'Cause if i can i'm up for it!

Original post: Qryztufre

[QUOTE=Calintz]Can you elaborate somewhat Q. To enter you need to be able to actually do these lil tricks consciously, yes? For example, you have to be able to project and come back with memory of it? 'Cause if i can i'm up for it![/QUOTE]
In a perfect world YES recall is a plus...but the world ain't perfect

My recall is not what I'd like it to be and I often have NO clue about most of my dreams. I used to be REALLY REALLY good at them, then stopped practicing for round about 10 years...

Once I move I plan on practicing again and figured maybe if I started this up I could get some outside help *smirk* So, no...you don't need to know how, you only need to be willing to try.

A lot will be done via email & PM's (at least that's how I'd like it) then once the time frame is up I will compile the entries & submit a general overview...then open it up fer discussion.

A lot of it will take place in my yard (well, BrokenIris' yard) and I'll post images of a surrounding area so we can all know what it looks like...then I'll place a table in the center of the area with a random object or three on it. The trick will be to see how many of us can find the item and name it. Or I'll set up a time frame of a couple of hours on a given night (or nights) so that we can all meet there OOBE and then compare notes as to meeting other OBEers.

For the Dreaming experiments I'll likely set up a scenario to see if we cal all coincide...and possibly enter into each others dreams on a mass scale.

The Astral Project will likely revolve around the soon to be new OF Astral Temple. (as seen here: Astral Meet-and-Greet)
Q

Original post: Calintz

Sure thang then, sign me up! Anything to get my butt onto the astral and do a selfless deed at the same time.

Original post: Jakaris

Hmm.... I have nothing else to do over the summer, why not, sign me up for the Astral Experience

Original post: Panda

[QUOTE=Q]For the Dreaming experiments I'll likely set up a scenario to see if we cal all coincide...and possibly enter into each others dreams on a mass scale.[/QUOTE]Hey now, I didn't know that THAT was part of the deal. What if I'm not able to do the dream scenario and I'm having a dream that I'm sitting in class naked and SOMEHOW the dreams get merged? I'll never live it down.

~Breathe deep.

Original post: BrokenIris

I use to do these experiments with about 16 members of a message board system I use to frequent. I preferred the dream and AP experiments, and did well with the OOBE as well. If I had to choose one, the dream aspect would be my choice.

When we did these, we had memebers from all levels of ability. We had some people who had never had an OOBE and/or rarely ever recalled a dream. They wanted to participate for the experience and chance that they may be able to increase/enhance their abilities. These group participated in these experiments for about a 5-6 year period. It is important that no one feel left behind AND no one becomes bored with the experiments. That is why input from all members is very important. Suggestions, complaints, etc. is welcomed and encouraged.

After giving everyone a few weeks to get signed up, Qryztufre will most likely start an email list, or whatever he feels works best for him, and discussions will occur regarding the outline of the experiments and what can be expected. All members will be included in this at that time. It will take a few weeks to get it all set up and exercises will begin.

One of the main things to remember is honesty. If you don't recall, or did not have an experience, fell asleep and forgot, whatever.....when you submit your email, PM or whatever to Qryztufre, be honest and say so. Never feel behind the group or like you will never have success with one of the experiments. In my old group, we had several people who had NEVER done anything like this, it took a few months before they started having a small percentage of success, and within a year they were some of the strongest members. I think it was because they had the desire so strongly that they practiced more often and constantly kept their abilities ready.

I don't want anyone to feel like they do not have enough experience to particpate. I have had a few people ask me in chat about what some of the experiences were. This group may not be interested in the same experiments and may even, HOPEFULLY, think of and come up with their own unique ideas. Some of the things I did with my old group were: placing an object on a table in my home and allowing members to come via OOBE and try to figure out what the object is. All members that participated in that one would email their responses to one person. I would email what the item was to the same person. That person would compile a post including what the item was, who participated and what their results were. (This may not be how this group decides to do it and that is fine, I am merely answering some questions I was asked by several people in chat on how things were done when I did these a few years ago). For AP we, as a group, designed an astral temple, each member had their own room/space in the temple and there was a main meeting room as well. For dreaming, we did a lot of experiments. We did mutual dreaming (where everyone meditated on a pre-dream thought, the members submitted dreams they would like to try, one dream was chosen per week, each memeber kept a journal and wrote their dreams, if they had no recall they wrote "no recall", everything was submitted and results posted.) There were other experiments involving people entering the dreams of others, and attempting to do something in the dream (like hand them a rose or something) and they would write down what they did and the person handed the rose would write their dream and see how close they were.)

This is merely a few out of many things done over those 5-6 years. I don't desire to clone that group and continue the same experiments. Everyone needs to have their own reason for joining the group and their own ideas of what they would like to achieve and experience through it all. If there were members who did not desire for others to be entering their dreams, but they wanted to try to enter someone elses dream, that was fine. Some people had problems allowing a group of people to enter their dream state. This was respected, accepted and everyone was cool with it. For these experiments however, the table and items involved for the OOBE's will be outside of my home, not inside as before. I had one person in California before who seemed to "connect" very easily with me with OOBE. He eventually got to be about 90% correct on the items each week. In addition, he became 90% or more correct on when I went to bed, what I wore or did not wear, if I washed my dishes before I went to bed and what my cat did of a night while I slept. Therefore, I would prefer to have the table outside of the home so I can shield my private space, yet not shut anyone out of the experiment.

I hope this answers some of the questions and concerns I received in chat. If not, please feel free to discuss any concerns, questions, opinions, suggestions, etc., here in the thread. Never feel a question is stupid, never feel you are not experienced enough to participate and don't NOT sign up because you think you may not be able to succeed at all. If there is anyone who is struggling and feels like they need extra exercises, advice or help.....that is what the group is for....and you can feel free to PM, IM, or email Qryztufre or myself and we will help you any way we can.

We want this to be fun.....a way to improve and enhance abilities....and a chance to see just how far we can go and what can be done in the various areas of these experiences.

Iris

Original post: Qryztufre

[QUOTE=Panda]Hey now, I didn't know that THAT was part of the deal. What if I'm not able to do the dream scenario and I'm having a dream that I'm sitting in class naked and SOMEHOW the dreams get merged? I'll never live it down.
[/QUOTE]
The experiences will not involve anyone entering YOUR dream, well, not unless it is YOU that wants us too. For dreaming I'll likely make a list of the ppl participating and then make up some place for all of us to dream about. Most things will be kept simple to allow the group to fill in the blanks with thier replies. If you happen to dream that you are in class NEKID then you don't have to tell me (unless that's the experiment ) you can simply submit "no recall" or tell me you had a different dream (with or without details).

The Dreaming will more then likely involve everyone entering a Mutual Dream rather then any particular person's individual dream.

[QUOTE=BrokenIris] We want this to be fun.....a way to improve and enhance abilities....and a chance to see just how far we can go and what can be done in the various areas of these experiences. [/QUOTE]
Yes, exactly....and it's why I feel it important that if you are gunna play that you sign up. If we all start seeing user_Y participating but no one knows who they are then it may scare people off or skew the results. If you sign up and have a bad experience you do not need to go into dsetails when you submit your results...If we are meeting in a dream on the side of a mountain and you end up dreaming that we were your class mates while you were NEKID then that'll be OK. You can leave the NUDE part out of it....but please lemme know if you drempt and if other members were involved.

If you are a novice, don't worry...so am I!
Q

Original post: Qryztufre

We will all need to get in sync with each other so it'll be important to know your time compared to ours. You can find your time based on GMT here:

Someone has suggested that we all do something simultaneously such as lighting a candle at the same time each evening then snuffing out at the same time for a few weeks.

Hehe...maybe we can all reward ourselves with a COOKIE if we all can sync up well enough to succeed in one of the projects I'm NOT trying to brainwash people, so no affirmations or syncing incantations please. It is important that we all remain individuals, but it's also important that we can coincide in some fashion to assist in the ease of this project.

I think that doing something like this would/could help to put us all in the same mindset easier when we are actually ready to do something together in the experiments. Anyone else have any suggestions, comments, input?
Q

Original post: Sidhe

[ not gonna play but have something to say]

--- Give me a set date on when this is begining, so I can make sure and clear some of my shit out of your playing field...
Will also cut ties to said location...
[cool thanx]

--- [area of consern] none of my business but here goes...]

why are you inviting strangers into your space ya'll???
This HAS casued many problems in the past, and trust me, not all circles contain or hold certain people to a certain given location...
Probly just my foolish ass being overly causiuos and genuine consern for a friend, but it seems not so wise to bring people to your house...

---GOOD LUCK WITH EVERYTHING, "EVERYONE"---

~~~SIDHE~~~

Original post: Qryztufre

The red lady has spoken thus:
[ not gonna play but have something to say]

--- Give me a set date on when this is begining, so I can make sure and clear some of my shit out of your playing field...
Will also cut ties to said location...
[cool thanx]

*sniffles* You should play...even part time players are welcome. Though, any and all input from even not players will be welcomed. You should not have to clear any ties, though you may wanna somehow lock any return avenues to your place in case your concerns below manifest. You will be welcome regardless as BrokenIris knows you..and any friend of her's is a friend of mine.

--- [area of consern] none of my business but here goes...]

why are you inviting strangers into your space ya'll???
This HAS casued many problems in the past, and trust me, not all circles contain or hold certain people to a certain given location...
Probly just my foolish ass being overly causiuos and genuine consern for a friend, but it seems not so wise to bring people to your house...

Not the home, and not the entire yard. I'm thinking of some secluded corner...Wards, servitor/protectors will be in other location for wanderers Your concern is noted and is one of mine as well. This will be taken into account and while a more potent individual may be able to get through I think that overall most will assist in the projects and respect my (and BI's) privacy.

---GOOD LUCK WITH EVERYTHING, "EVERYONE"---
Thanks! & together we look like Christmas!
Q

Original post: Sidhe

Q---> *sniffles* You should play

I don't like to play, done that been there, paid dearly for it, learned and promised never repete...
Besides I've got enough to do when I sleep, gods know I need no more things to do, or any more people involved...

But feel free to contact if anyone gets loose,

---As for cutting ties, I'd better, lest one of your unprepaired players gets a hellishly big suprise... Heheheheheheeeee!!!

~~~SIDHE~~~

Original post: 93Pryme

Uh...should I start doing energy exercises or do you guys think it'll be possible without?

Original post: Acid09

I am all for this. But several things come to mind to comment on some may sound silly but let me explain. If this is going to true shared dreaming and AP we'll have to get our time zones in order. I mean I go by mountain time so somebody in new york is two hours ahead of me while somebody in Cali is one behind. This can be a problem if everybody agrees to meet at midnight and everybody attempts this at midnight in their time zone.

We will all need to get in sync with each other so it'll be important to know your time compared to ours. You can find your time based on GMT here:

Scratch that last paragraph Q was ahead of me. So aside from the time barrier we should start drafting a "dream scape" or place to meet. A place we all can agree upon and understand enough to get a basic picture of. For example we get a picture of Everest and place walt disney's castle on the top and say focus on this picture its where we will be meeting. Then to prevent unwanted intrutions we should figure out a way to make like a calling card or make some barriar to keep out any nasties. I know on the higher plain nasties don't lurk but believe me some pretenders of "light", I call them Lucifers (not insult intended for any satanists) do hang around on the higher levels. The reason I bring this up is because some may not have the experinece to find their way straight to the highest astral levels. The etheric, or ghost plain, is probably the most feesable. Though I can't say for sure as I've never done a shared experience with more than one other. A calling card like some mantra and picture to contemplate over would help to draw us together. I'd imagine that if one focused their mind onto a collective word phrase (mantra) and location (yantra) that even if they weren't lucid they'd still be able to experince the shared affect.

Don't know never done this before so I'm eager to try. Q its your show so let me know what you think.

Original post: 93Pryme

It might be sacreligious to mention another forum, but maybe you could get pointers from http://www.astralpulse.com. Their forums have an island and they have a picture and everything that everyone can imagine in their mind. So lets take some of their ideas

Original post: Qryztufre

Acid09 wrote: So aside from the time barrier we should start drafting a "dream scape" or place to meet. A place we all can agree upon and understand enough to get a basic picture of.

I'm with ya here, and a set location is planned, though the actual area has yet to be decided.

Then to prevent unwanted intrutions we should figure out a way to make like a calling card or make some barriar to keep out any nasties. I know on the higher plain nasties don't lurk but believe me some pretenders of "light", I call them Lucifers (not insult intended for any satanists) do hang around on the higher levels. The reason I bring this up is because some may not have the experinece to find their way straight to the highest astral levels. The etheric, or ghost plain, is probably the most feesable. Though I can't say for sure as I've never done a shared experience with more than one other. A calling card like some mantra and picture to contemplate over would help to draw us together. I'd imagine that if one focused their mind onto a collective word phrase (mantra) and location (yantra) that even if they weren't lucid they'd still be able to experince the shared affect.

Keep talken, the more input the better...though here I assume you are referring to stages 1 & 2 right?

Don't know never done this before so I'm eager to try. Q its your show so let me know what you think.

None of them will likely start fer at least another two weeks...I wanted to allow plenty of dicussion time (and I'm moving). I liked your suggestions and look forward to more input.
Q

Original post: Collabari~>

I chose stage 3 AP stage. I am quite familer with dreamstaes and lucid dreaming, but I feel this will give me a good opportunity to strech my abilities, since I have never Projected before.

Original post: Acid09

Some believe that dreaming and astral projection are the same thing. I'm not here to say if this is true or not only explain why some think this. Its because many aspects are similar. I know when I first started AP I could project my mind onto the astral plains and I could reel it back into my body. But my concious perception was like I was dreaming. Just very vividly and colorful. By keeping track of the details reflecting upon the experince and following the same basic practices for lucid dreaming. I was able to gain more awareness while projecting. Just as though I were having a lucid dream. In fact it came to point where I could willfully be doing one and then jump to the other. If I was projecting I could start dreaming, with lucidity. If I was lucid dreaming I could AP. The only difference, and the only way I could discern the two, is that the expereinces of lucid dreaming seems to be more related about me while AP seems to be more about whats around me- basically everything thats not in me or of me. This leads ME to think that lucid dreaming is projected consouness (on what I think are three levels of being- unaware, aware and so aware I could alter my surrounding without waking up) into the self, like inner space. And AP is projected consousness into outspace, and the awareness factor still applies.

So with this information I think the only people who would be effective in constructing an astral temple would be those who can find such a degree of awareness that they can alter their surroundings. This would apply to stage 3. Though I believe that anybody capable of percieving the temple can find it and experience it through basic self programming. That being they contemplate over the image, mantra, "key" and focus on that before attempting to AP. If they are successful in their intentions and self programming they should naturally be able to experince what anybody else can. The more practice they have the better they will get at accomplishing this feat and the more they themselves will be able to manipulate things around them.

As for lucid dreaming, for stage 1 and 2. IF it is perceived inner space then shared dreaming is like combining worlds, so to speak, but probably not as dramatic. The way I did this with one partner was we both created a pathworking ritual. Basically I made up a starting point. A dream scape I created for myself. (An interactive image like a mountain retreat) Within this was a pathway that lead to another place that was created by both myself and my partner. My partner had her own personal starting place that lead to the same location that we both created together. It did seem to work. We both started at approximatly the same time we both entered the agreed upon space.

Protection- symbolizism is everything. For stage three we could dedicate a "temple keeper" somebody in power to manifest servitors, like a dragon, to prevent anybody not on OF, anybody not welcome (even if only nasties are not allowed) from entering. A servitor could also spot "carriers"- astral leeches that people carry - and destroy the leech. Making the temple a desirable place to be because it has a function- healing. And I'll get to desire in a bit. But the reason I suggested Mt. Everest with the disney castle at the peak is because both are easy things for most people to think of. Remember I said the higher plains are harder for less experinece people to reach- this might bypass that. A high mountain top can Symbolize the higher plains protected from "low land beasts incapable of scaling the mountian", thus a place where astral nasties can't reach and further more so because most people can relate to a caslte as a place of protection. In addition we can create a gate with a key, as a symbol, and a password, as a mantra. I know it sounds like children playing with tree forts, but take the child's perspective here, the purpose of such things is to keep out unwanted guests. And I have no other practical idea how to go about doing this on the astral level.

Now the thing is we could probably use the astral temple for stages one through three. This would be prudent because it would prevent people from mixing the two and just make things simplified. However for the shared dreaming people probably have to make their own starting point within a lucid dream. Or if one can not reach that stage they will need to contemplate, while awake, over a starting point with a path that leads to the Mt. castle from a starting point. and picture themselves walking that path.

ok I've ran out of time and probably won't be able to return for at least three days- after memorial week end and my fingers are starting to hurt typing so fast.

Original post: Kazahel

Im up for anything to do with lucid dreaming. Just tell me what to do and when to do it.

.

Original post: Acid09

Alright to pick up where I left off. Again this all only opinion. I'm just trying to help in the construction of a desirable and fun experience. To share dreams collectively and consously for stages 1 and 2 several requirements should be met- Each person is cabable of visualizing (either awake or within a dream) a pathworking ritual complete with their own unique dreamscape that others can not breach with a path that leads to a collective dream scape where many can enter and leave as they please. The point of two separate dreamscapes, a personal and collective is to prevent anybody from "merging" this would never be in full but I imagine it could be quite confussing to start having dreams that aren't you're own. That won't happen if players of this game can in effectly create a sacred space, specific with a path way that leads to a collective space. This is not a lot more different than casting a protective circle in the starting stages of cerimonial magick. Just within dreams and the same protective meassures would apply (better safe than sorry and I don't dabble in this aspect). In reality stages one and two would be merged by default.

For stage 3 it would be possible to use the same collective space as an astral temple. So the dream scape we share and the temple we astrally vistit would be the same thing. I know I claimed dreams are inner space and ap is outter space. But the mind's perception of the two are really so closely related that one could be dreaming and then in an instant be projecting onto the astral field and then dreaming again. At least I know I have had dreams where I could not tell if it was simply a dream or astral travel. I beleive that by creating a shared dream we are in effect practicing astral travel through our dreams. Its just those practicing stage 3 would be going to the same location a different route. To protect the astral/dream temple and people within permitted enterance, somebody put in charge could create a sevritor of some kind to act as a gate keeper. A golem or dragon or fire elemental could separte leeches from people. So anybody could enter but leeches can not so nobody has to worry ATDs (astrally transmitted disieses ;-) ) So somebody who feels they have a leech can go to the temple to have it removed. If a leech can not be removed the person would not be allowed to enter to prevent others from being affected.

Futher more the temple could be used within dreams and Ap for a variety of functions. It doesn't just have to be a place to meet and greet. But also to learn, and study and heal, be healed as well as converse with otherworldly beings and even travel through portals to other realms created at the temple. In other words in order to build an astral temple we will need to figure out what we want to use it for then create those areas within it. Firstly, for protection we should create a barrier, like walls complete with a gate and even a mote. Then create, or summon entities to protect the barrier from being breeched. Then we can add other areas like a ball room to meet people. An arcane library for the study of anything compiled by perhaps our own collective information. An apothecary for people who seek spiritual healing. A court yard with walkways into different gate ways, one (the biggest and most easiest to access) that leads out of the temple and others into different realms on the astral. So one could visit the fair folk or ghost world or under world or where ever else. I imagine we may be able to use this for many other things so I hope others can provide ideas. This makes the temple a more desirable place to go. See one's deisre is the direct the river flows. In order for somebody to go much of anywhere they must have an emotional desire to do so. Weather the intention is for exploration, healing, knowledge whatever else one has to desire it like one desires love, not want pizza. Though perhaps not an intense desire as love. A desire is different than a want because a desire has an emotional attachment to it. A want is just like quick fix. I'm hungry so I eat.

This leads to the main issue I have with stage 4. At least in my case I know I will not be able to accomplish much because I have no real desire to search a stranger's back yard for possibly their keys hidden under a rock near a tree. Or a golf ball stuck in the drainage spout, just as an example. This is more of a remote viewing technique. Which I do think varies from astral travel because astral travel is the minds perception of space above and beneath and including the mundane while remote viewing is like bi-location. I have mind in two places at once allowing me to perceive information from both spots. But its a mundane frame of sensation.

Ok I think I have added enough. I guess I'll edit to add more if I see fit. I don't want to dominate this. I want others to get involved in the construction process. So I await the imput of others.

Actually I did think of something I should touch up on. That being how we ritualistically enter the temple -AS an example. For both dreams and astral travel. And I mean ritualistally for safety sake. If we don't follow a certain degree of symbolizism this will not work or at worse one may be inffected with a leech or "merge" with another consousness. One should approach a gate. This gate will be part of the dream scape we agree to meet at so it will be the same for everybody. Once that gate has been approached a servitor will appear and demand to hear the key words- the mantra. Only one who is permmited to enter will know the words. NO leech or "lucifer" (a pretender who hides in light) will know this. If one provides that information correctly the servitor will then ask to see your true self- this is when a fire elemental or whatever will check the traveler for leeches. One simply says "I am NAME and I request enterance into the temple of (name)" It will automatically banish leeches if nesseccary-probably with white fire. Then it will say you are purified please present the key and place it into the notch on the door/gate. One then visualizes the correct key image in their projective hand- usually right- and places it into the proper spot. The servitor will say you may enter and the gate/door will open. The traveler may then assume any form they choose (no need to go in naked) and presto one may then experience the wonders of the astral temple.

Now magick is secret and I think in order for this to really work some degree of secrecy must be kept. So the only person who can share the key mantra and image is the person in charge or "temple keeper". This person should designated first before anybody gets involved in the process of building anything. Since its Q's idea I think he should be leader. Its a simple enough job and I'm sure with the imput of others it will only be easier. This person will descide the key mantra and image, on his/her own. People who are interested in participating in this experiment will have to PM this person to abtain the knowledge. This also means they are obligated to keep the keys secret themselves, or forfiet their admition. (A servitor would be able to see if somebody has kept their oath and keep those who haven't out) Once that person has the knowledge they may help the keeper in building the temple. Only those with the knowledge should be allowed to influence this construction to keep it collective amoungst those involved. And seperate from those not.

The reason for presenting so much ritual info is because I think this will work well if we treat it like any other ritual. And covens practicing their rituals don't let strangers know what's going on inside of the circle. In a way by creating an astral temple we are creating an astral coven. And I think it shoul operate as such, but also indiscriminate to who may participate.

So to finish let me organize all this:
To build a temple where people may visit both through dreams and astral projection in this order:
1. Designate a temple keeper. (I think it should be somebody well versed in the occult, regardless of practice specific to astral travel and dreams)
2. People wanting to participate should pm the keeper for the secret keys (mantra and image that are created soley by the keeper).
3. As long as only those participating in the constuction of the temple actually help build it we should be able to discuss what the temple should look like, its location, whats within it, publically. Other things that should be discussed are terms for expulsion. Or guidlines of behavior. Possible even annual celebrations. Or to hold sabbats and esbats.
4. When discussion is complete those willing will have to go to the location and litterally summon/evoke energy to be molded into the actual temple. Then create a servitor(s) for protection. Perhaps the keeper himself could do this as long as those involved know what to expect.
5. Once the temple has been built all involved should know its ready. So the keeper should tell those the temple is ready. Again this shouldn't matter publically because only those who know the keys will have enterance. Its the keys that should never be shared.
6. Perhaps to ritualistically charge the temple a cerimony could be held where those involved will be expected go within the alloted cerimony time period and visit the temple. In effect adding their own essance and empowering the effect of the temple.
7. Those who wish to visit the temple through dreams will have to build their own pathworking ritual in a manner similar to this;
a. Create a personal dream scape separte from the temple land scape.
b. Complete this with personal key images, a mantra and possibly a servitor to prevent others from inadverntly entering another's mind and causing havoc.
c. Create a path by which one may be able to follow from their own dream scape to the temple gate. Once there, one may evoke the gate mantra and key image to enter.
8. To leave the temple properly one will have to only present the keys to the enterance gate and walk out. Into their own dream scape or the astral plains. Perhaps we find that people are able to summon the gate by will and leave via evocation of the gate.

This experiment can be fun but it should be done only by those who are serious in participating and serious about safety. Ok NOW I await the imput of others.