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Original post: Serpentiferous

I have a question for those of you who are well-seasoned in astral travel or have personal experience with the topic.

-According to Abduction researchers, those who have experienced abduction events become far more capable in the area of astral travel than others. Even the abductions themselves follow patterns that appear like a standard OBE, except for occasional physical signs on the body and the nature of the scenes viewed.

The fearful undergo probing, the brave receive training and recruitment. When I look at the various people Iâ??ve known that have had conscious astral experiences (whether positive or negative. Angel, Demon, or unaccompanied spontanious travels) they all seem to lead to eventual disclosure that there are entities involved that are "Aliens".

Iâ??m very curious to read what others think on this subjectâ?¦

Is the abduction experience the result of spontanious astral travel into the wrong neighborhoods? Or, is astral travel a result of something that happens after an abduction? I'll leave my own opinions out for now....


Disclamer: Iâ??ve already filtered through all the web sites I could find on Astral Abductionsâ?¦ so Iâ??m not looking for links unless theyâ??re exceptionally good and verified as correct by your personal experience.

Original post: darkshadow

Ok I'll be the first response. I have been abducted before but it hasn't helped me achieve any projections. I've only had two projections, one was before and one was after if I'm correct in the timing of the abduction. It's an interesting theory and I'm not going to say that my experience disproves it, I just may be an oddball.

Original post: Serpentiferous

I guess I'm interested in the link between abductions and astral travel in general. So your input is helpful.

I've only had two projections, one was before and one was after if I'm correct in the timing of the abduction.

Can you tell me what kind of time span was involved. Was this over the course of several years, a decade?

I just read about these abduction/OB ability theories yesterday, so I thought I'd look into it more. I had an abduction experience at 13, but it was preceeded by 9 years of OBEs, and followed by real intense OBs... then nothing for a long while up until a year ago. Since then, I've had a pretty good variety of astral activity taking place. My scenario seems to be fairly typical (for an occultist).

I don't like the idea of Alien beings wandering about snatching people, so I'd be more happy to hear that people travel as part of their natural developement. Then in the course of discovery, find these other beings (whatever you want to call them).

Original post: Ninlil

That theory sounds pretty neat, it reminds me of something I read about certain indiginous North American cultures who crossed a lot of so-called modern-day alien archetypes with spiritual mythology. Ancient cultures with a lot of the same abduction myths, only they treat the "aliens" as gods, but it's funny, they look a lot like people describe aliens to look like. Just a thought.

Original post: SavannahSkye

I was talkin to my other half about alien abductions/visitations not so long ago, he laughed at my own particular theory, but id like to share it, and here seems as good a place as any, maybe you have heard it before, maybe not, but here goes!

Ok, have you ever sat down and wondered how man came about his great advances? I mean the invention of the wheel, and so on, my theory is aliens came to earth and mated with prehistoric man, son creating the man we know today, thereby explaining the missing link. Now as man advanced over the ages I believe the aliens came to earth at different times, or possibly abducted people, impregnating them, so in future generations, who would then give birth to outsatnding humans, who in different fields would advance our civilisation with new and wonderful discoveries and inventions, now maybe the people undergoing abduction were not physically taken off the planet but taken in an OBE way?
I was thinking in the last 100 years or so we have advanced so much in technology, medicine, many fields, and more and more people are reporting abductions, is this mere coincidence?
Well thas my theory, feel free to have a giggle

Original post: Serpentiferous

Ninlil,

Yes, there are a lot of stories from tribal people that sound like our 'Aliens'. The most interesting to me are the Nommo (fish people) of the Dogon tribe, who gave them maps of the Sirus star system that have been proven to be accurate by science.

Another interesting one is from the amazon. The tribal medicine men there go on a type of vision quest where they have to get past the dragon headed men who claim to be our creaters. They say that they had to flee their own world. The medicine men view them as liars though, and take physical weapons on their astral travels withwich to fight them.


SavannahSkye,

That sounds like Gen. 6:4

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown."

(There have been quite a few fights between ministers though on what this passage actually means. lol)

I know that meditation and astral work are great times to work out complex problems, so even without guidance, access to those states could boost our problem solving abilities. From what I've read of Einstein, he seemed to value imagination over knowledge.

What fascinates me about the whole issue of evolution of mind vs. alien assistance is this; Anthropologists do have the approximate span of time where man went from living in the moment (no permanent home, no reusable tools, no art or symbology) to complex thought, called plotting behavior. It seemed to happen at the same time the earth was going through climatic changes and the vegitation began to change. One theory is that man, hunting for new food sources, stumbled across hallucinagens. At that point their world exploded into one of art, language, and permanent encampments. As if overnight. However, the cave art that was being done contains some rather bizarre paintings of men with their hands bound behind their backs and flying through the air (from cave paintings in Sicily). That leaves a lot of food for though.

Interesting stuff, to be sure.

Original post: Nalyd23

A good book for you to check out is Grand Illusions by Gregory Little. It discusses the Spectral Reality Theory of Physical Archetypes. I discuss an aspect of that theory here - The Spectral Theory of High/Low Magick. I think that thread sums up some of my feelings in this area. Any questions on that just ask, I'm perfectly willing to discuss them in this thread as well. I like this subject.

Original post: Ludi

Anthropologists do have the approximate span of time where man went from living in the moment (no permanent home, no reusable tools, no art or symbology) to complex thought, called plotting behavior. It seemed to happen at the same time the earth was going through climatic changes and the vegitation began to change. One theory is that man, hunting for new food sources, stumbled across hallucinagens. At that point their world exploded into one of art, language, and permanent encampments. As if overnight. However, the cave art that was being done contains some rather bizarre paintings of men with their hands bound behind their backs and flying through the air (from cave paintings in Sicily).

The cave paintings were done much later than the development of "plotting," as you call it.

Early man would have found hallucinogens much earlier than this as well; animals frequently eat hallucinogenic plants accidentally, though usually only domestic animals do this. Wild animals seek out fermented fruit.

If you could give me the source of your information I'd love to try to locate it, because this sounds way off to me.

Original post: 9~6~3

[QUOTE=Ludi]The cave paintings were done much later than the development of "plotting," as you call it.

Early man would have found hallucinogens much earlier than this as well; animals frequently eat hallucinogenic plants accidentally, though usually only domestic animals do this. Wild animals seek out fermented fruit.

If you could give me the source of your information I'd love to try to locate it, because this sounds way off to me.[/QUOTE]And where is the source of your information?

Original post: Serpentiferous

The cave paintings were done much later than the development of "plotting," as you call it.
...
If you could give me the source of your information I'd love to try to locate it, because this sounds way off to me.

Keep in mind that I'm not an authority on physical anthropology, just a student.

There are never ending debates between authorities on what makes man modern. In this case I'm associating it not with physical modernity, but with cognitive skills and the mastery of them... at least to the point of being able to express themselves and think in symbolic terms. I'm in the camp of "action proves ability" vs. latent untapped possibilities equalling a modern human.

... Way off topic, but here is one artical I have on my puter that I can offer up. It addresses the topic of modernity. Again, I'm going along with those that view symbolic usage by the masses as a sign of a truely modern group of humans.

What made humans modern?
Science; Washington; Feb 15, 2002; Michael Balter;

Volume:

295

Issue:

5558

Start Page:

1219-1225

ISSN:

00368075

Subject Terms:

Primates
Paleontology


Abstract:
Researchers from different disciplines are trying to find out whether the Homo sapiens species was born in a rapid burst of change. In modern humans, the face and eyes are tucked under the braincase, rather than thrust forward prognathously, as in all other now-extinct human species.

Full Text:

Copyright American Association for the Advancement of Science Feb 15, 2002


(second half of full manuscript)â?¦..

Revolution or evolution?

While anatomists ponder the link between modern skulls and modern brains, archaeologists are cataloging what may seem to be more direct clues to ancient minds: the tools, hearths, artwork, and other traces that early humans left behind. "A species is as a species does," says anthropologist Stanley Ambrose of the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. But the archaeological record has led to a perplexing puzzle: There is relatively little evidence for dramatic changes in behavior until long after the appearance of modem anatomy.

Many researchers have thought that the first signs of truly modern behavior did not appear until about 50,000 years ago, during the so-called Later Stone Age (LSA) in Africa. This was soon followed by what some have called a "human revolution" starting about 40,000 years ago during the Upper Paleolithic period in Europe. The archaeological record seems to explode with creative activity, including personal ornaments, elaborate ritualistic burials, and fantastic cave paintings, such as the 32,000year-old artworks at the Grotte Chauvet in France (Science, 12 February 1999, p. 920).

This burst of culture has led some scientists, notably archaeologist Richard Klein of Stanford University in California, to propose that about 50,000 years ago, the human lineage underwent a genetic change that boosted the brain's cognitive powers. This mutation, Klein argues, unleashed many of the abilities we associate with modern humans, including language, abstract thought, and symbolic expression. "The [anatomy] stayed the same," Klein says. "But look what happens to the cultural record. Before, [the brain] had just one simple sort of software. Now, you get hardware that can run all kinds of software."

But the conclusion that modern behavior came so late-and so suddenly-is now under attack. Perhaps the most dramatic onslaught came last month, when a team led by archaeologist Christopher Henshilwood of the South African Museum in Cape Town reported what it claims is the world's oldest art-two 77,000-year-old pieces of red ochre engraved with geometrical designs, found at Blombos Cave on South Africa's south coast (Science, 11 January, p. 247, and p. 1278 of this issue). "This is a fantastic discovery," says GWU's Brooks. "It is really proof of symbolic behavior at this early date."

Indeed, even before the Blombos research was published, Brooks, together with paleoanthropologist Sally McBrearty of the University of Connecticut, Storrs, had thrown down the gauntlet to those who espoused the cultural explosion idea.

In an article 2 years ago in the Journal of Human Evolution (ME), entitled "The Revolution That Wasn't"' the pair argued that the real roots of modernity could be found long before 50,000 years ago. They cited a number of recent excavations in Africa, including Blombos, that reveal sophisticated stone- and bone-tool manufacture, advanced hunting and fishing skills, and well-developed exchange networks-evidence, they claim, for modern behavior tens of thousands of years earlier.

Although they agree that such evidence is much more abundant during the Upper Paleolithic, the cognitive transition "wasn't sudden," says Brooks. "It was improving on a basic plan that was already there." Most advances in behavior during this later period, they argue, were due to cultural rather than genetic evolution-the genetic changes had already happened.

Henshilwood adds that the Blombos finding might turn out to be the "tip of the iceberg" once more pre-LSA African sites are excavated. Brooks agrees: "We see numerous intimations that humans ... already had these abilities," she says, including ancient ostrich eggshell beads from Mumba Rock Shelter in Tanzania and barbed bone points from Katanda in the Congo. Indeed, last December in JHE, Henshilwood's team reported finding a cache of elaborately worked bone tools (often interpreted as evidence of modern behavior) in Blombos layers also dated to about 70,000 years ago.

But such artifacts are considered by many to be less convincing than, say, actual art. And some researchers are unwilling to draw broad conclusions from the red ochre designs. Klein, who has worked at Blombos as an animal-bone analyst, says that "the meaning of these pieces will remain debatable so long as they are unique."

New York University archaeologist Randall White argues that neither the isolated red ochre designs nor the bone tools represent "evidence of organized symbolic systems shared across space and through time"-the hallmark, he believes, of the kind of fully modern behavior seen in the Upper Paleolithic. White says that the earlier finds cannot be equated with fullblown symbolic representations such as the paintings of horses, lions, and rhinos in the Grotto Chauvet.

Yet White, unlike Klein, doesn't think that the Upper Paleolithic "revolution" was driven by genetic changes. In fact, he and many other researchers agree with Brooks that the Upper Paleolithic explosion was the result of "cultural and not biological changes," as paleoanthropologist Robert Foley of Cambridge University puts it. In other words, even if some sort of genetic speciation event gave rise to modern brains, that does not mean that fully modern behavior flowered immediately thereafter-in which case the archaeological record may be a poor guide to the timing of genetic and neurological changes.

"The big bang" of genetically determined cognitive advances "came with modern humans," suggests psychologist Michael Tomasello of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany. But what followed he suggests, was a "ratcheting effect": cultural evolution fueled by improved transmission of knowledge, especially via language. Says AMNH's Tattersall: "We didn't go from the first blade tool or Blombos geometric engraving to moon shots overnight, and we are still learning new ways to deploy our capacities today."

Earlier hominids, adds anthropologist C. Owen Lovejoy of Kent State University in Ohio, "may well have been every bit as intelligent as we are today, but they lacked the shoulders of giants on which to perch."

The quest for genes While anthropologists and archaeologists opine about how many genetic changes may have led to the birth of H. sapiens, geneticists themselves have been trying to gather data, but they face a difficult challenge. Teasing out ancient DNA is a formidable task that has been successfully performed on only a few relatively recent Neandertals. Fossils as old as 100,000 or more years remain out of reach. And, although a few geneticists are eagerly scanning primate and human genomes for differences in genes and gene expression, especially in the brain (Science, 6 April 2001, p. 44), those studies reveal differences between apes and humans-not what separates modem humans from extinct ones.

"We are looking at less than a 2% genetic difference between chimps and humans, but vast differences in morphology and behavior," says paleoanthropologist Mark Collard of University College London. "I don't think the genetic data will be a panacea to solving [the origins of modern humans]."

Nevertheless, there have been a few recent breakthroughs. Last year in Nature, for example, researchers reported finding a gene directly implicated in the ability to speak-- an ability many, though not all, researchers believe is unique to modern humans. Researchers are now probing that gene's evolutionary history to see if it underwent mutations around the time of the birth of H. sapiens (Science, 5 October 2001, p. 32).

And one group of researchers has set out on what some believe is a quixotic quest to explicitly identify the genes that make us modern. They have even identified a candidate gene that, they say, might be responsible for language and other advanced cognitive abilities.

Back in the early 1990s, Oxford University psychiatrist Timothy Crow hypothesized that just such a gene, key to language and the brain asymmetries that many researchers believe accompany it, might be located on the sex chromosomes. Such a possibility might seem far-fetched, because there are few functional genes on the Y chromosome and most are involved with male fertility. But Crow already had a good idea about where to look.

A decade earlier, geneticist David Page's team at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MM had identified a 4-million-base-pair block of DNA on the X chromosome, called Xq21.3, which was missing from the Y chromosome in all mammals except humans. Page and others found that about 3 million or 4 million years ago-that is, ofter the chimp and human lines split-this segment was copied onto the Y chromosome of the hominid lineage. The homologous Y chromosome segment then underwent a rearrangement called a paracentric inversion, in which it reversed direction and split into two parts (see diagram). Crow speculated that this second genetic event sparked genetic changes on both the X and Y segments that ultimately led to the speciation of modern humans. He predicted that one or more genes important to brain function would be found in these chromosomal segments.

Then, 2 years ago, Cambridge University molecular geneticist Nabeel Affara's group reported finding similar functional genes, called PCDHX and PCDHY, in this segment on both the X and Y chromosomes. The genes code for a member of the protocadherin family of proteins, biomolecules that play critical roles in the development of the nervous system. Sure enough, PCDHX and PCDHY"are expressed almost entirely in the brain," says Affara.

But because no one has yet been able to date the paracentric inversion, Crow's theory linking it to modern human origins remains speculation. Affara and Crow are working together to better characterize the PCDH genes and what they do, in the hopes of demonstrating that they are crucial to cognitive abilities associated only with modern humans. In the meantime, comments Tattersall, "I take my hat off to them for trying to come up with a mechanism" for the speciation of H. sapiens. "They may be wrong, but we need as many ideas as possible."

It may be some time before all of these new ideas in anthropology, archaeology, genetics, and other disciplines come together to create a coherent picture of modern human origins. But researchers are encouraged by the interdisciplinary attempts. "This new research will provide the springboard for a lot of other discoveries," says Aiello. "We are on our way."

There may be few sure answers so far, but one thing seems certain: Sometime during the last 200,000 years or so, evolution blessed us with the wisdom to ask the questions.

-MICHAEL BALTER

On the subject of the cave paintings and Sicilian Pre-History in general, I will have to dust off my books and see what I can dig up. Sicilian pre-history in unique in many ways. One of those being a very reluctant acceptance of mass agriculture (you would be proud ) and fairly late in the game. What I'm looking at are the original inhabitants physical traits indicating modernity and subsiquent usage of symbolic thought.

I wanted to post the images from the specific cave I'm refering to, but I can't find my copy of Sicily Before History. I believe that's the book that has the info I'm looking for.

... which finally brings this thread closer to being back on topic. I'm interested in studying the various stimuli that triggger advances in perceptive abilities in people... including astral travel.

-Serpenti

Original post: Ludi

Thank you Serpentiferous!

The cave paintings from Sicily date to around 10,000 years ago, according to a web source I found. If you'd like, I can look it up. The 20,000 or so years between the cave paintings of France and the cave paintings of Italy give plenty of time for populations to spread throughout that area, carrying with them the ideas and skills for painting, in my opinion. It's really hard to get a grip on that much time, and how much traveling around could be done during those years.

Because there seem to be connections between hallucinogenic plants and human brains - we have receptors for plant alkaloids - it seems evident to me that we share a longer history with them than the above theory would indicate. In his book The Botany of Desire Micheal Pollan discusses these receptors and their action in the human brain. I don't have the book near me right now, but I'll try to find some pertinent passages.



9~6~3, I'm ignoring you because I find you annoying and rude.

Original post: 9~6~3

Acknowledging me is the exact opposite of ignoring, Ludi.

Is this because you have no source for your information, except perhaps your own imagination?



Now, that was rude. My previous request was not. If you can't produce solid references, just say so.