OccultForum.org

Original post: doh

That is the basic question. But not in the sense that we here generally ask the question.

This is in the sense of the state of the world today. Watching the bs, hearing it, seeing it. My question is actually two-fold.

1-Someone decides they want what I have. They choose violence to obtain it. Who in the hell really determines what success is and does it ever resort to just one person's wants over another?

And

2-If it comes down to your personal wants (given any situation save basic survival instinct) who in the hell are you to decide that what you want is more important than what I want?

Angry question, yes. Valid question, yes. And if anyone can answer besides an "I don't really know I wish things were different" or "Who in the hell are you to ask why I'm more important than you" or "I don't really care because I'm more important than you and I don't care what you think about it" I'd like to hear it.

I've got my guesses, and they are based on spirituality and much else that is discussed here. But I don't really want any answers like those I have given. If they are, don't waste the time because, honestly, it defeats the purpose.

Original post: Scarlett_156

My personal response is that you already know who I am, so in my case the question is unnecessary.

But generally speaking, and for those who don't already know: You'll be hard pressed to find any set of circumstances under which I would want anything that you've got. I'm not saying that as a brag or insult, it's just true.

The world is a really huge place. The universe is even huge-er. In spite of our numbers, there's still more than enough room and plenty of resources for all of us.

The reason I started practicing magic (so very long ago) is so that I could be assured of having all my needs/wants met without having to resort to force. I do still steal occasionally, and con people into giving me stuff, etc., but that's mostly for fun and not because I really NEED whatever it is that I'm taking.

As far as I'm concerned, there's always a way for me to get what I want without having to harm or force the weak.

Forcing the strong and able is always a lot more fun, anyway.

I hope this was helpful! xoxo Scarlett

Original post: doh

In the same vein, who do you harm in getting what you want, in the long run? Shit flows downhill, after all.

Original post: Anathema_Oracle

As the eminent douchebag once said:

And I am
Whatever you say I am
If I wasn't, then why would I say I am?

1-Someone decides they want what I have. They choose violence to obtain it. Who in the hell really determines what success is and does it ever resort to just one person's wants over another?

This to my mind, at least in my experience, is a very rare occurrence and is limited to being mugged once. I don't think my mugger was more successful than me, quite the opposite, he was a drooling junkie. He wanted my money, I gave it to him in exchange for not having the shit beaten out of me. But he's probably sleeping in a park at the moment so...

2-If it comes down to your personal wants (given any situation save basic survival instinct) who in the hell are you to decide that what you want is more important than what I want?

I wouldnt say some people are more important than others, but that some people are more successful and know how to obtain what they want, if they're clever, this usually won't involve direct conflict with others for the resources they have.

The most successful people I know have obtained what they want through very mundane and non-violent means. It's not that their wants supersede anyone else's, but that they're better positioned to get what they think they want while others languish in sub-mediocrity (me!).

Original post: doh

Okay, hold on. The answers are not bad, but consider them on a spiritual level. Those are the answers I'm looking for.

Spiritual, not just examples, as have been given, but spiritual experience.

Original post: Scarlett_156

With magic, there is no true need for harm to anyone, since the magician gets what he wants at will. (We're leaving revenge or conflict as a consequence of war out of the question, or so I assume. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

No one has anything spiritually that I want, either. Spiritually, physically--I have what I need or am so close to obtaining same that the distinction is moot.

Don't take this as a slam of anything that you have. I'm sure that whatever you have spiritually or physically speaking is quite fine. Looking at an expanse of aspen trees with their leaves fluttering against a blue sky is also fine, but I don't want to take it home with me except as a memory. The aspens can keep what they have and the sky can keep what it has, and you can keep what you have. If you keep offering I may take another look, but then whatever I took past that point would not strictly be "by force". xoxo

Original post: doh

Oh no, no slam taken because, honestly, I can't think of anything that I have that someone could take from me, if that makes any sense. I think we are on the same page.

But I'm also talking happenstance. That run in with a psycho kind of thing where someone is in the wrong place at the wrong time. The guy shot during a hold up.
The guy beat to death for looking the "wrong" way. The good neighbor that is targeted because they don't believe EXACTLY as you do (and "you" is used loosely).

The stupid shit. Pardon the French. Hell, pardon the English for that matter. But I'm hoping people look at it.

Here, at OF, we aren't riff with zealots or thugs. The question lays in "what". And there are those here that will defend the "Because I will it" aspect, but what if the circumstances are completely outside of your control? Yet, how many here are willing to step in and actually stand up, based on belief alone, to those that hold no belief? On a spiritual level?

We can sit here in our happy forum and say something is wrong, based on spiritual beliefs. But how many would stare down the barrel of a gun and tell someone that they are wrong. That what they are doing is stupid? I only ask because I have. I have said who in the hell I am and what gave me a right to tell someone else. Recent events in my life (not eminant as I have said) have just made me question this.

I have seen it. But, at the same time, who in the hell am I? Granted, I wouldn't go to the extremes I listed, but, at the same time I am pissed off. I can't see a situation that would make me do the shit I see and hear.

So, in that vein, but with an intellectual twist, take the physicaly mundane threat and turn it to the esoteric. Who am I to say this that and the other? On a spiritual level.

What says "That is wrong"? Consensus? Or just morality? Or just a belief in something greater that is unaccepting of that behavior?

I know, I know, I ask loaded questions. But I still await explainations. Especially considering that there are those here that believe in self, though they would probably never do my example (there is great example of proper grammar-LOL)

Okay, I'm rambling about the human condition.

Original post: simex

doh;329160 wrote:
1-Someone decides they want what I have. They choose violence to obtain it. Who in the hell really determines what success is and does it ever resort to just one person's wants over another?

Success, being a word that does not represent a specific, tangible phenomenon, is completely and utterly open to interpretation. Asking what success is, is like asking at what point an object can be called "large".

So I think it's relative, and has a lot to do with what ever you decide the point of life is. I'm not sure there is a point, but I personally equate happiness to success. So I also reject the popular view that success is the accumulation of wealth, power, and/or fame.

I think the man sitting in the box on the side of the street, with nothing to lose, shit-eating grin plastered on his face, is vastly more "successful" than the guy sitting on top of the hill in his mansion, worrying constantly about all of his things and how he will keep them.

2-If it comes down to your personal wants (given any situation save basic survival instinct) who in the hell are you to decide that what you want is more important than what I want?

Bingo, and I think you're right to assert that a lot of the world's problems are caused by people's inability to grasp this. For instance, people in the US, who have been whipped up into a frenzy of fear, want to insure their safety against the possibility of future terrorist attacks; this seems more important to them than the want of innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan to not be bombed.

It all comes back to the golden rule. People have trouble treating others as they'd like to be treated, because often they can only percieve their own needs.

Original post: Scarlett_156

We can sit here in our happy forum and say something is wrong, based on spiritual beliefs. But how many would stare down the barrel of a gun and tell someone that they are wrong. That what they are doing is stupid? I only ask because I have. I have said who in the hell I am and what gave me a right to tell someone else. Recent events in my life (not eminant as I have said) have just made me question this.

You have brought this up before in another setting.

My answer is now as it was then: I HAVE stared down the barrel of a gun. I HAVE had people try to take what I have by force or stealth. Sometimes they succeed, but more often they fail.

When faced with violence, does ANYONE stop to consider whether the person threatening violence is "wrong" or not? There may be some, I guess. Those are the ones who die, more often than not.

Trying to prevent someone from doing violence to you is not a moral consideration unless you consider your life and enjoyment of life a subjective value. I realize that many people who spend a lot of time on the internet have these kinds of internal conflict ("my life: right or wrong?") ya know? but since you (doh) constantly make references to your friends, family, and life off the internet, I'm going to make the assumption that you are not one of those people, and that for you, as it is for me, the internet is entertainment and maybe secondarily a form of socialization. (Again, correct me if I'm wrong.)

This sort of question does tend to pop up a lot on internet discussion forums where most of the participants are American or British. My guess is that over-civilization/over-education are factors that lead to this questioning of self and the right of the self to exist, but it's only a guess.

Ancient man didn't do much thinking about the haphazard nature of the universe or the randomness of fate, but lived with those certainties as he lived with water, earth, animals, and trees. Now that we are capable of thinking of "right to exist" and "happiness" as abstractions, we are less accepting of them, ironically enough. xoxo

Original post: Zasar

My answer to that is pretty simple you are whoever you want to be. According to your beleifs, to your values.

You can either stand up to them and live it out loud or you can also go about them silently and just not live by them, but that dosen't show much devotion or strenght in those dosen't it?

You can either care for the asshole putting a gun to your head and tell him you think he's wrong and risk taking the bullet. Or you can shut up, give in and go back with your life. You can risk it for your beleifs, comes down to you in the end.

Life is like this, people will want what you have, you will want what other people have. There you will have a conflict, it's inevitable.

Comes down to your choice, will you deploy your whole arsenal to overcome it, or will you just go on and leave it be. There you have to gauge the risks, what you may gain, what you may loose and come up with your decision either to fight or not.

Nature comes down to that survival of the fittest, well, not always, sometimes a slight thing can change all the odds. There are no established rights to who has the right to what. It mostly comes down to who may take it and maintain it, completely outside of any moral values.

It comes down to your choice to impose your moral value or not on these events.

You decide of the worth of what you want and to wich extent your going to go to get it/defend it.

Out of personnal experience, I did myself take big risks (and stupid ones) just trying to impose my views on others. I'm not one to be scared of such things, I just go about what I beleive, but sometimes I should learn to shut up. That time I went to a group of crackheads, alone and dressed in a nice suit, pockets full of cash (I was also drunk and high on coke) telling them they're a worthless bunch and should stop smoking crack wasn't such a good idea, for what it was worth. (Surprisingly nothing happent, they were probably too high.) (And was not really consistent considering I was high on coke myself.)
On another side, I've also stood up to guys twice my size to defend my loved ones, and personnaly I think that was worth it. The value I gave to them was higher than the risk It meant for me. And I was confident enough with my tools to know I could avoid a stupid conflict of egos, and did.

So for me it all come up to the value you put to it, the strenght you have for it and judging the situation in hand.

Original post: Necropolis

doh;329160 wrote:That is the basic question. But not in the sense that we here generally ask the question.

This is in the sense of the state of the world today. Watching the bs, hearing it, seeing it. My question is actually two-fold.

1-Someone decides they want what I have. They choose violence to obtain it. Who in the hell really determines what success is and does it ever resort to just one person's wants over another?

And

2-If it comes down to your personal wants (given any situation save basic survival instinct) who in the hell are you to decide that what you want is more important than what I want?

Angry question, yes. Valid question, yes. And if anyone can answer besides an "I don't really know I wish things were different" or "Who in the hell are you to ask why I'm more important than you" or "I don't really care because I'm more important than you and I don't care what you think about it" I'd like to hear it.

I've got my guesses, and they are based on spirituality and much else that is discussed here. But I don't really want any answers like those I have given. If they are, don't waste the time because, honestly, it defeats the purpose.

You are what you can hold. In nature and in life, you own nothing, you are nothing. Everything that you have in your possession will either out last you, or you will out last it. Ownership is an illusion based in a need to feel safe. This includes who you are, there is only three things you can control your body, your intergrity and your choices. Everything else can be either violated, taken or destroyed by the whims of others. Freedoms exist because people agree to them. The Police have power because people agree to let them. So the point is this, Spirituality, Religion, Philsopohy, Education, Food are luxuries that we have because we can obtain and hold on to them, those that can't strave. Who am I? I am someone with the Right to be and if I want what you have and can take it and hold it, then its mine, But if you can hold it and stop me then its yours. As the Buddhists say "All suffering comes from attachment".

Original post: Azrael_Duchante

Passive loonies and active loonies is what i boils down to. Passive want more than they got, always. Active do the same, but they get enough passive to have an actual shot of getting what they think they want. As for a real awnser to your questions, it's always about what you want, sad as it is it's true. As to how anyone can think that thier wants are more important, didn't most of us think that we were the only intellegent beings in the universe?

Original post: Aset-Ka

I remember when I was young my father taught me an important lesson. I was losing a tennis match against him and blaming the wind, the sun, the court....my environment. The court was awful, it was a blacktop court that was cracked up and glass was all over the place, but he said, "Son, we're playing on the same court, under the same sun, and the same wind can blow my shots off course. They have nothing to do with why you're losing. Stop blaming the environment you and your opponent are in and concentrate on what you are doing in this environment, what your opponent is doing in this environment, and then think of how you can do it better."

I think you have to help people sometimes for them to be able to help others, and it occurs to me that some people were never given that help and so feel as though they have no choice but to harm others to live. So, I am someone who chooses to be part of the solution rather than the problem by helping others, but the only reason I am able to do that is because someone helped me. I believe that most people committing violent crimes would stop if they were given a positive opportunity at a good life without fear for their safety. There are some, though, that I believe have mental instabilities that inhibit their ability to fully function in society independently or reliably, and those individuals should be monitored and cared for until a cure or therapy has proven successful.

Original post: MagiAwen

doh wrote: 1-Someone decides they want what I have. They choose violence to obtain it. Who in the hell really determines what success is and does it ever resort to just one person's wants over another?

Odds and influence. But I do not think it is still that simple. Why does it have to be one over another? Is there not some blessing in all things unfortunate? If you like where you are in your life now, spiritually, physically, mentally and healthwise - are you positive you would be where you are if things were different? If things seemingly went more "your way"?
Succes and the measure of it depends solely on perspective and as subjective organisms this opens an entire slew of options, constructions and conclusions...but most of it is simply an illusion.

doh wrote: 2-If it comes down to your personal wants (given any situation save basic survival instinct) who in the hell are you to decide that what you want is more important than what I want?

Assuming that people who have desire actually consciously decide that it is more important than another person's desires. Not everyone thinks that way - I don't...so this is a difficult thing for me to think about.

Personally, I do not desire things other people have as far as material and even spiritual things go. The only thing I truly desire is to become all I can become and I don't even know what that is or what exactly that means.

People put importance upon things that I do not put importance on and whether or not those things are indeed important things or simply a constructed importance out of grandiosity or some distorted measure of success or simple jealousy or hatred...does not truly make them of any importance to me.

I have found in my life the less important I find most things, the more of those things I seem to have. Money for instance. The less I want it (although I need it in this society), the more I have of it...by no means does it mean that I am rich...but I have what is necessary.

There used to be a lot of violence in my life as well as people stealing items from me. During those times I was in quite a struggle with society in general and with myself in a spiritual way. Once I had figured or found my personal drive and what was truly important...most notably found by losing everything I had including money, housing, food, personal dignity and more.

This is starting to sound like some self help mumbo jumbo... but really I believe in this - those that want what they have to subdue others for not only are wrong but will end up with nothing in the end.

I don't know if any of this actually answered your questions or not...but I got a lot out of it...thanks, Doh

Original post: Brother Butterball

Doh,

Again, you ask great questions.

You said you were seeking spiritual answers.

Why do other people seek to take
what you have?
And who in the Hell are they for doing so?

I would suggest that the spiritual solution
lies in sharing our world resources.
There is plenty of talk today about going
green. About global warming and saving
the planet.

I saw on the news that Canada
has tremendous oil reserves.
And that as such America would not
need to rely upon the Middle East.

But in the broader sense,
are not men and women spiritually
evolving at this present time,
where many of our differences
are falling away?
Financial, sexual, social and political.

A world economic collapse certainly
would be an financial equalizer
in some sense.
But who then would hold the power?
Those who have the resources.

In sharing what the world has,
would this not solve many of the worlds
problems?

Aleister Crowley's words come to mind:
"Every man and woman is a star."

Perhaps, Crowley foresaw in his day
what we are experiencing even now.
The falling away of our differences.

How do you all feel about this?
Please elaborate.

Brother Butterball

Original post: Rin Daemoko

Original post: Uni_Verse

What it boils down to, from my perspective, is people's constant attempts to define their own worth by something outside themselves. Something that will fill that hole left from their detachment ; the severing of that umbilical cord.

So they want that new car, or that beautiful new girl their friend is dating. Feeling that if they could just get that new little trinket, they won't feel that hole. At least not for a little while.

Then they become junkies, and when their fixes can no longer be gotten. When the world seems to be conspiring against them... they TAKE, something they no longer want. It is needed, to feed their addiction.

To stand on a soap box and call out : "I am, and have a toaster, a microwave, a house, a car..."

Wanting to hear those words : "You are successful." ; failure found in other eyes.

And when that list is longer than their neighbors, they feel a sense of security, of power. That they are some how invulnerable. A beautiful lie, but at least it brings them a smile.

Poor, poor little children. All they want is a little attention.

Original post: Ai Shite Maku

Honestly, I don't think that someone should take something that they haven't earned or have been given. To look at someone and decide that you want what they have and thus deserve it based off of want alone is selfish and wrong. It promotes negativity.

If you want it bad enough that you would be willing to steal it or hurt someone for it, why not just ask for it? Sometimes arrangements can be worked out. If not, there are other ways. Hard work, prayer, and the like. Money is a root of evil, but it is also a nice balancing factor. If you work a hard day, and get paid for that day, you have earned your wages. You can buy it and it is yours and you can be satisfied.

Taking what has not been given and has not been earned only causes discord in the Universe, and is counterproductive to the One. That is my opinion.

Original post: AstralMagickCraft

I would say that using magick knowingly or unknowingly to get what you want is why you deserve it. If you spent three years in the jungles performing enochian rituals in order to ascend a plane and are one of two candidates to get a job, by all means you deserve it more than the twat who spent those three years working at burger king and watching football in a dazed state.

Original post: Sapiens Vir

I usually reply to people who ask me" Who the hell do you think you are for blah blah blah whatever it is I'm doing?" And I usually reply " I'm the mother fucker doing blah blah blah whatever it is I'm doing." Originally this was a smart ass answer but intent defines your moment and we only exist in the moment so actually that's a slightly more profound answer than I thought.

Original post: shadow flame

all boils down to strength. i take what i want if i'm able, if i'm not able then i die.

Original post: Noctiluca Moonfly

[QUOTE=Uni_Verse]
Poor, poor little children. All they want is a little attention.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. People think power is material wealth. Well, that is just ridiculous. We all die just the same, regardless of how much useless crap we've accumulated.

Of course, who am I to say that material wealth is stupid? I guess it's only stupid if people don't want intellectual, spiritual, and emotional development. Some (most) people don't want those things. They just want their wealth and entertainment.

However, material possessions are certainly shallow and finite.

Original post: Uni_Verse

However, material possessions are certainly shallow and finite.

Not to be nit picky, but I do not see the 'possessions' themselves to be shallow/finite.

In my opinion, the 'bad karma' which comes along with material possessions is from denial.

They do not face up the fact that in order for them to be rich materially, someone else has to be poor materially ; money, etcetera, being finite in number.

Also, that their idea of 'ownership' is infantile. You may have exchanged some funny money for that new car but you did not forge the steel, weld it together, build the engine - let alone invent the wheel.

So what about the car do you own? Just an idea and a piece of paper with your name on it.

And that smile as you give into sweet, sweet dis-a-ill-u-sion.

Original post: Noctiluca Moonfly

[QUOTE=Uni_Verse]Not to be nit picky, but I do not see the 'possessions' themselves to be shallow/finite.[/QUOTE]

I mean they are finite in the fact that they decay, some things quicker than others. Of course, that can be said of most, if not, every thing. But, those who place happiness in the amount of things they own is quite shallow.

Anyway, I agree with what you say. I guess that's the point I'm trying to make, which isn't much of a point because you already made it. Reenforcment, maybe?