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Nullius in verba

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:29 pm
by Meredith
Hi all. A quick introduction...

In real life I'm a science/maths geek and professional spreadsheet wrestler. I'm a skeptical atheist - no belief in a world beyond the world, or any form of disembodied mind/soul, or "energy" other than the 1/2mv2 variety.

(That said, I'm very open to being shown the error of my ways. If you think you can consistently get results that cannot be explained by confirmation bias and placebo effect, let me know and we'll try for the Randi prize.)

Right now, though, I'm mostly curious how much practical value I can get from occult/mystical/religious techniques without needing to believe in them. I'm trying to learn to meditate, and have started to play around with Tarot as a way of focusing my mind on important questions. Any suggestions for other stuff to look at would be much appreciated.

Re: Nullius in verba

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:43 pm
by Nahemah
Hello and welcome to the forum. [cool]

Chaos magick might appeal to you.
Paradigm shifting is a technique whereby you 'buy into' belief structures temporarily.
However a certain sleight of mind is necessary for this to be fruitful,you must be able to suspend your disbelief for the duration of the borrowing.How open minded is your scepticism?
Check out the below link,you could work from one of these or perhaps mix the mup a little. [thumbup]

http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chao ... model.html

You may also enjoy Discordianism,it's worth checking out too.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tilt/principia/

Re: Nullius in verba

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:56 pm
by Stukov
Meredith wrote:Hi all. A quick introduction...

In real life I'm a science/maths geek and professional spreadsheet wrestler. I'm a skeptical atheist - no belief in a world beyond the world, or any form of disembodied mind/soul, or "energy" other than the 1/2mv2 variety.

(That said, I'm very open to being shown the error of my ways. If you think you can consistently get results that cannot be explained by confirmation bias and placebo effect, let me know and we'll try for the Randi prize.)

Right now, though, I'm mostly curious how much practical value I can get from occult/mystical/religious techniques without needing to believe in them. I'm trying to learn to meditate, and have started to play around with Tarot as a way of focusing my mind on important questions. Any suggestions for other stuff to look at would be much appreciated.
The Randi prize is a joke. They get donations from people religiously believe nothing exists and the continually select frauds for testing for the purpose of entertaining and reinforcing the belief of the "skeptics" in order for them to keep donating money. Randi organization has no desire for actually finding the phenomenon, only maintaining an image that nothing exists because there is no prize, so they can keep raking in the money. They will also not allow for independent testing by a neutral 3d party, instead they are the test administrators, the judges, and the one who gives the award - when they have an interest to not give away the money.

Would really be nice if the "skeptics" applied their own level of skeptics towards the Randi organization. I am a skeptic myself, as no one should think something true without verification for themselves, I also don't hold a strong belief in things other than ideals/values (truth, liberty, integrity, etc), instead remain open to the idea that anything is possible and only recognize the possibilities in varying degrees of probability.

The Randi organization members are as fervorous as other religious zealots. If they pulled their mind out of the closed-minded shell that other zealots have had for centuries, they would see peer-reviewed research articles that show that human beings are able to predict future outcomes (one showed that people were able to predict which computer screen would pop up with porn before it was shown/randomized on the screens, the other showed you have better test results if you study for the test after the test - with a statistical signification as strong as we use for heart disease medication approval by the FDA). The world is a big place and people always jump to a conclusion that isn't supported by the data and instead of calling it a hypothesis, they believe it as strong fact.

There is also research going on NDE in hospitals by people say they can see themselves from above. They are putting images on the tops of counters where no one can see unless you are above your body, and recording the results.

I can tell you from my experiences and knowledge that certain things exists and unless there is a way to measure it in the physical world you aren't going to see good scientific data on it, to be perfectly honest, the methodology needs addressed by the community, as most testing in this field will either show a rough "x happens when y", without any explanation, or other tests that only rules out what isn't happening. Science can't prove these things exist, only disprove what they aren't, until the only explanation is left.

Re: Nullius in verba

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:17 pm
by dodaive
So it is easy for you to look at hard science, which for the most part consists of 4 Magickal Arcana. 1) Matter which is based upon the Periodic Table of Elements. 2) Energy,( which is actually also matter in its yang form,e=mc2). Energy uses Physics to calculate. The other 2 Arcana are Time and Space which Einstein showed is really one thing Time-Space. Now is that really all there is to the world. These 4 arcana, make it possible for living cells to work together, this is the life Arcana. This can still be considered hard science to an extent,but at a point, a line of complexity is crossed and the world is now called "soft science". It is this area where much of the world's scientific ideas are nonsense. Philosophers are able to get bites and pieces, but still come up short. Welcome the study of the Occult (or hidden, as its meaning in Latin). So in the same way that a lay person wouldn't understand what two scientist are talking about, you will see occult discussions that make no sense,scientifically. I can give some explanations, if I understand it.
As for the belief problem, Belief and Experimental perception exist on a continuum. They react with each other like acid and base. If you actively, perceptively experiment, you will get rid of belief and vise versa. Try and get a feel for where you are at on this continuum. In my experience belief isn't a prerequisite for studying the occult, but there are many that would disagree with me. Welcome to the forum, hope you find it stimulating [happy]