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I am researching non-kabbala ceremonial systems.

Any pointers appreciated.

Well, most ceremonial magic doesn't directly involve the qabalah in it's application, but the majority of western ceremonial traditions utilize it in some form. I think you might have trouble with that one.

This would depend on what you mean by the Kabbala. If your definition is extended to Hebrew forms alone then you will have plenty of space to explore. If by Kabbala you are referring to what makes up "Kabbalistic studies" (Egyptian, Alchemical, etc.) then you are going to be far more limited.

To be on the safe side, I'm going to presume that you mean the latter. In which case you may find some of what makes up Persian Magic (an internet search will reveal some links) free of direct Kabbalistic influence. There are also attempts at re-constructing purely Egyptian ceremonial magic (that is historically accurate reconstructions) in R. K. Ritner's work (particularly The Mechanics of Egyptian Magical Practice). You then have the Neoplatonic tradition to drawn from which is pre-Kabbalistic as we now understand it.

Bohemian Alchemist wrote: If your definition is extended to Hebrew forms alone then you will have plenty of space to explore. If by Kabbala you are referring to what makes up "Kabbalistic studies" (Egyptian, Alchemical, etc.) then you are going to be far more limited.

To be on the safe side, I'm going to presume that you mean the latter.

The former is the case. The problem is that Kabbala systems such as Kraig's, identify the Judeo-Christian god as the moral pinnacle. One is required to invoke Hebrew angels (Uriel, etc) when doing the rituals. All of which implies belief in these deities, whereas there may be other gods even more powerful than the Judeo-Christian, so that Kabbala may be keeping us in a fishbowl. I am quite willing to explore systems such as Eqyptian if I can find a reliable text and not a fabrication, so thanks for the reference.

Bohemian Alchemist wrote: In which case you may find some of what makes up Persian Magic (an internet search will reveal some links) free of direct Kabbalistic influence.

By Persian magick I assume Zoroastrianism is meant which would include Ahura Mazda.

Bohemian Alchemist wrote:There are also attempts at re-constructing purely Egyptian ceremonial magic (that is historically accurate reconstructions) in R. K. Ritner's work (particularly The Mechanics of Egyptian Magical Practice). You then have the Neoplatonic tradition to drawn from which is pre-Kabbalistic as we now understand it.

I don't understand how neo-Platonic can be pre-kabbbala. Plato lived in around 400 BC. My understanding of neo-Platonic is that Kabbala, if it was begun by Hebrew mystics, began before Plato, unless we date kabbala to the supposed origin of the Tarot deck in about 1300. I could easily be corrected on this point, however.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism

"Neoplatonism (also called Neo-Platonism) (Greek: Νεοπλατωνισμός), is the modern term for a school of religious and mystical philosophy that took shape in the 3rd century AD..."

Erm, unless my memory is failing me Kraig explained in Modern Magic (which I assume you're referrinng to) that those names are of old Hebrew gods that have been bastardized by christians rewriting history, and that the names could be exchanged with, for example, Egypians gods (which I think Crowley might have done?).

Muloc7253 wrote:Erm, unless my memory is failing me Kraig explained in Modern Magic (which I assume you're referrinng to) that those names are of old Hebrew gods that have been bastardized by christians rewriting history, and that the names could be exchanged with, for example, Egypians gods (which I think Crowley might have done?).

Erm,I do not remember that in Kraig, but I may indeed have missed that.

Erm, In any case, bastardized does not mean that Hebrew entities were not originally intended however, it just means the Christians may have altered the names.

Erm, Are you saying the Christians applied these bastardized names to their own angels and if they were not also Hebrew, what would they have been?

Erm, If we assume they these entities are essential for rituals such as LBRP, etc as they are, then what deities would we subsitute for the bastardized Hebrew names?

Either Kraig or Bonewitz claimed that 'El' in old Hebrew meant God (not just God-like), suggesting that Gabriel, Uriel etc. were Gods of other regions (as Jehovah was the God of Israel). This was before the Jews learned about the monotheistic/dualistic (good vs evil) system of the Zoroastians and adopted that. I don't know how true it is, but thats definitely in either Modern Magic or Real Magic (Bonewitz).