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Hi I'm new to this forum, I'm also new to occult practice. I don't consider myself a mere dabbler though, as I feel so very drawn and meant to practice the occult. I'm pouring through books by EA Koetting and learning a lot.
I have questions regarding to circles and their significance, that maybe experienced practitioners could give me some insight on.
It is my understanding the circle represents eternity, and the operator steps into eternity as they step into the circle.
Is their a significance to a double concentric circle? Or a circle inside of another?
The goetic circle of pacts consists of more elaborate details than a a simple double concentric circles. Should the circle of pacts only be used when making pacts, or can it be used to perform rituals?
How does one go about making a circle, and is there significance to colors used? I've painted a red circle on black cloth, and it really wasn't easy, and I'm thinking there's got to be a more efficient way to go about this. Yes I could use flour, or even an astral cirlce, but I want something more permanent I can fold up and use repeatedly. What type of cloth and paint could I use? Or in what other method could I make a circle?
Should I put names or sigils around my cirle? Or should I use a simple circle as I start out?
Let me know what you think and thanks for your help.

Hello Caleb,

Welcome to the Forum. There are a variety of opinions and paths represented here. My own vantage point is a bit different from Koetting’s and I’ll offer you my thinking about some of the issues you raised. I hope you will consider them but there are no evangelical occultists here so we’re not lecturing you.

There is another thread running on the Forum now that I would like to point out to you. It is here:

http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... 55&t=35981

I hope you think about what this guy is going through and it could be worse. I would never tell you not to work the Goetic system and deal with these rebellious entities. But, I will tell you that if it not approached in the right way you can create some real trouble both physically and mentally.

The circle is not enough alone. The circle seals your aura and your personal space. But, you have to go to the bathroom some time. Even if you do it correctly you could still have the equivalent of an invisible thug romping around your residence.

Regarding these ‘pacts,’ I would point out that this is a fairly modern innovation in magick. In the Middle Ages & the Renaissance magicians did not make pacts with the Devil. There are no authentic grimoires that have such a rite. Further, the idea is alien to the core of the Classical Hermeticism which is the bedrock of Western magic. The stories of pacts from the Witch Trials and are found in books like the Compendium Maleficarum. If a priest grabs your testicle with a red hot poker making them boiled eggs and asks when you sold your soul you will tell him anything he wants to hear. Now, you can evoke some demon or some lesser entity that will act like one and say “I’ll be your lunch” if you like. Some people enjoy being prey and if that makes you happy then I wish you luck.

A word about Koetting for your to consider. He did an interview on Truth Frequency Radio in which he openly admitted he has no empathy. His work is interesting, but, I do not, personally, trust such people.

Let us know how things work out.

Thank you for your words, I can see what you mean about Koetting, and I've watched basically all his you tube videos so I know what you're talking about him having no empathy and all that. As far as the Goetic System and Goetic circle of pacts, I would not be so foolish as to even attempt to make any sort of pact at such a novice level that I'm at. I'm just confused on whether the use of circle would be appropriate to use in that I'm NOT making any pacts, so then what kind of circle should I use?
What in your opinion is the best to system to start out in if not the Goetic?
Thanks

I can't speak of Geotic circles - I'm not a Magician- but I can speak on 'circles' from a different point of view. When I work with circles, or create one, I'm actually creating a sphere or a bubble, if you like, for you to work inside. It can keep things out or in, it can be a doorway or a closed gate. Once you get the hang of it you can throw one up almost instantly. I don't need to carry anything around with me to do so.

I have a question. When dealing with Geotic circles are you actually dealing with a circle or a sphere?

I had a friend ask me once if you stood within or outside of a circle. I said inside. He laughed and said 'that's because you're a witch'. In High Magick, the circle is created for holding what you evoke in place. In the other thread, Asurendra, mentions a triangle. I really have no idea - I don't practice High Magick.

The circle in magick practice fullfils basically two kinds of roles, also depending on how you want to use it.

1) The most practical one is its use as anchor point. In this case you stand inside the circle and use it as your own domain. You create temporarily your own "universe", it serves as a border for your ritual sphere and helps you to focus onw hat you are doing inside. The practice making this circle is in fact nothing more than a focus of your own mind.

2) The other role is that what you could call a "banishing cycle". it is the equivalent to the triangle asurendra mentioned above. In this case you stand outside of the circle and the mental form of whatever you call, summon or project manifests in there. If it actually has any "protective" properties or something like that, I leave that to the theory specialists. For me, it simply is a projection area, where the things destined to appear will manifest, as I already mentioned.

Now to the DON'Ts:
If you call something like the goetic spirits, and you already connect such a suspicious and anxious intention with them (goetic spirit = evil) and you summon it into a banishing circle, NEVER stand inside the circle when this circle is intended to lock this thing. It is like trapping yourself in a cell with a eager molester. Not funny!

Also, to come to the point. Using the gremoir and its way of summoning, follow the rules. Because when you summon the projections/beings/demons, whatever, in this manner, they are pissed (remember when a talked about "you already connect such a suspicious and anxious intention with them (goetic spirit = evil)"?). It is like inviting someone into your home with the words: "Come in, asshole, lick my boots, do my washing and then fuck off!". Of course you then have a hard time when you don't deal properly with them.

Or you could simply take the sigil, draw it on a piece of paper, make the room dark, make a focus circle (only to focus on your operation), ignite the drawn sigil, dance meanwhile and laugh yourself into trance (or masturbate if you like) and see what happens then. This is an operation without all this "Come here and do this", this is an invitation to a guest for party and maybe a favor if you bring a wish into your energy flow of laughting (and masturbation).

About this High magick stuff, some magicians/witches/wizards/warlocks like to make it complicated. In the same time I often read that magick is called a science and/or an art. That does not fit in my opinion. Neither in art nor in science you make it unecessarily complicated. Keep it simple!
If you need a psychodrama every time you want to ask for something or making a gnostic experience this is rather inefficient. It is like always relying on carrying wheels when riding a bike.

Psychodrama can be of course part of your practice and nobody will say anything against it. A ceremony in the style of crowleys mass theatres can actually be pretty funny and an experience on its own. However, if you always have to rely on such things, your work will become rather inefficient.


I should mention that this is a rather modern point of view, mostly rooting in the upcome from chatoic and discordian views. Traditional fellows might see this things differently. I can just speak for myself [crazy] I am neither a special wizard, nor warlock nor witch nor something else, simply a normal guy with a nice hobby and interests. Titles and names are crutches, nothing more.

What in your opinion is the best to system to start out in if not the Goetic?
Thanks

If you ask that here, you will get many different answers I guess. My advice (yes, this post is rather ego focused [crazy] ):
NONE. There is no such thing as THE BEGINNERSYSTEM. Take a literature about the basic concepts (without falling for any idelogical doctrins) and learn those concepts, practice them. This is your foundation. If that is established, search for what interests YOU. Many here can tell you about this or that system, but none of us here can tell you what to believe!

Keep and open mind and critical thinking. And don't just believe what somebody is telling you about it. Read it, think about it, try it out by yourself if it bothers you and then reflect about it.

To come to end point (I could write pages about the topic but it wouldn't do anyone any good), here some general literature advice for a beginner:
Franz Bardon-Initiation into hermetics (don't bother with the first part though, except you are interested in his ideology. The interesting part for the beginner is the practical part)
Jan Fries - seidways (Special literature about trance and going wild, magick is not all about sitting still for hours to be illuminated)
Visual magick ( Same author, different matter. Visualization is one of the most important disciplines in modern magick, regardless which system you practice)

Only some basic literature. There are tons of good books out there, in the forum there are already some good links and if you ask nicely, I guess people would give you some more too. Those 3 up there can keep you busy for a few month, if not for a year or more depending on your own progress and patience.

Have fun! [thumbup]

Ramscha

Hi, thanks for your help, I've got a lot of material at my finger tips that could take years for me to study. I want to focus on just evocation for right now. I want to break it down to it's essence and formulaic meme. EA Koetting has down a good job of explaining the process, although I'm having a hard time finding particulars about the circle. He went into some detail on the goetic circle in his book of Azazel, and he's talked about circles in a generalized kind of way.
I've concluded that I'm going to use red chalk on concrete in my garage for the circle that I will stand in, and I will also draw a triangle of manifestation in the direction that I want the spirit to manifest. Chalk will give me a good non permanent medium...
Can anyone help me with particulars regarding the design of the circle and triangle? Or point me to threads and/or links regarding this topic specifically?

Can anyone help me with particulars regarding the design of the circle and triangle? Or point me to threads and/or links regarding this topic specifically?

What exactly are you going to summon, what are you calling for? What paradigm is your frame? If you follow specific systems and traditions, they have their own designs for circles, symbol use and circles. Using hebrew names or latin phrases in your circle is sometimes the case, same goes for the triangle. Symbols vary between the traditions and also betweent the reasons of the ritual. As far as I know there is no general recipe.

Of course you could simply draw a circle and a triangle, that would be the easiest way and should do the job too, depending on if you can work with that type of methode.

Ramscha

There's a variety of spirits that I want to work with, most of them demonic. I won't be following specific systems or traditions, however as far as names go could I use the 4 archangels/4 demonic kings names/sigils on the perimeter of the circle depending on my goals of the ritual? And what significance/difference is there to hebrew or latin or just english? And if you could also help me out with symbols and designs specific for a demonic evocation.
I know that's a lot of questions so thanks for taking the time to answer.
If it helps any I will list the specific spirits I want to work with..
Sastan (Clairvoyance)
Mehmi'on (Evocation)
Ant'harratu (Sorcery)
Mephistopheles (Black Magick)
Frotasch (Strength, Soul Travel)
Halah'thor (Career, Wealth)
Fro'ghla'tasch (Love, Sex)
Thalos (Soul Travel)
Maybe I'm naive and overly ambitious but these are all spirits that I would like to work with.

There's a variety of spirits that I want to work with, most of them demonic. I won't be following specific systems or traditions, however as far as names go could I use the 4 archangels/4 demonic kings names/sigils on the perimeter of the circle depending on my goals of the ritual?

There should be no problem with that. But be sure that you know what you are working with, a little reasearch about the 4 princes of hell/heaven might be wise. I would recommend some meditation about their nature with their name as mantra and then look what pictures come into your mind when doing so.
Since you have to trust those 4 pillars during your ritual knowing them should be your first aim before proceeding further.

And what significance/difference is there to hebrew or latin or just english?

Theoretically it shouldn't make any difference, you should get results with or without a certain language. However, language, phrases and prayer in certain laguage are as much a focus for the mind as are the sword, your robes and so on. Acting with a certain language can be helpful when you work with a related paradigm or a spirit related to the culture where the language comes from. It simply makes it easier to "find the right mood".

If it helps any I will list the specific spirits I want to work with..
Sastan (Clairvoyance)
Mehmi'on (Evocation)
Ant'harratu (Sorcery)
Mephistopheles (Black Magick)
Frotasch (Strength, Soul Travel)
Halah'thor (Career, Wealth)
Fro'ghla'tasch (Love, Sex)
Thalos (Soul Travel)
Maybe I'm naive and overly ambitious but these are all spirits that I would like to work with.

As I already mentioned above knowing the aspects of those you are working with might be helpful. therefore you can also apply the mentioned method of meditation here.

When it comes down to working with such entities, take your time. The more you work with certain aspects/ghosts, spirits/blablabla, the more familiar you may get with them and the easier it will be tow ork with them. That means if you work intensive with just a few entities, it might work better then calling upon a shitload of deities you don't know. Also aspects aren't always limited to the tasks mentioned above. Since a book is always written based on subjective practice, it might be interesting to experiment with an aspect and trying out a task which is normally dedicated to another one.

example: Frotasch -->Love, Sex

Experimentation is an important part of the own practice.

Finally, take your time, you dedicate your progress of practice and learning by yourself, no book and gremoir can do that for you, they may only give some rough guidlines.

Ramscha

Ramscha wrote:

Of course you could simply draw a circle and a triangle, that would be the easiest way and should do the job too, depending on if you can work with that type of methode.

Ramscha

I did this, and I got some good results! What do you think though about the base or point of the triangle facing the circle? for example "O |> " or "O <|"
Hope that made sense.. I've been drawing the triangle with the tip facing the circle.

Well, again when working according to a certain system there might be some dogmatic thought while the triangle should face the circle this or that way.

I ones heard in a seminar of the viennese IOT the theory that the tip shouldn't face the circle as a triangle tip always canalizes energy and therefore makes it dangerous when pointing at the summoner as a strong flow of energy might flow to him. However, I am one who likes to ride on the flow of energy so I don't see any real problem, energy per se is not evil.

I already had both formations and didn't come across any real difference, but that is only my personal practice experience.

Ramscha

Try different methods yourself (which you will do anyway even after reading some advice you perceive as great). Than after you do, keep a record of your results and use the method that produces the best results for you.