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I've been searching for the right paradigm for a while right now. I am happy to say that, after all the suggestions I've been receiving on this forum, I've been feeling much better about reading,meditation, and such. Now, here are the two books I am most focused on right now: The Element Encyclopedia of 1000 Spells and Wicca: A Guide For the Solitary Practitioner.

I'm wondering mostly about Wicca right now. It seems...alright so far, at least in the context of the book I've chosen. Nothing really offends me, aside from perhaps the "three fold" law. It seems simple enough and subtle enough to follow along with that I won't be too stressed about what I'd imagine I can achieve with it. I like the God and Goddess aspect about it, being a fair and balanced idea of how to view deities. This particular book is an easy read, and I've no trouble getting through it.

My question is to those of you more experienced than I is, do you consider Wicca to be a worthy subject of practice, or is it too watered down to take seriously?

If it is not worthy, what else could be appealing to me? I've worked with LaVeyan Satanism mostly, some very basic Ceremonial Magick, and some Chaos Magick techniques. Also keep in mind, I'm mostly attracted to Chaos Magick but my friends recommended that I find some foundation works to make it easier to practice.

I think that what (paradigm) you practice is not anywhere near as important as that you practice, to the best of your ability. If you're reading it and it resonates with you, I think why not dive into it for a bit, see how far it takes you, and what results you get. It's the only way you're going to settle on something anyway

Edit: I put the paradigm in brackets to clarify that I wasn't talking about "what technique", I think the quality of your practice and technique is very important ^.^

You're the one who wants to be evil, right? My intuition tells me that Thelema is best for you. It's got Satanism, fear, power, demons, but also self-control. It was founded by one of the most infamous magicians of all time. The wickedest man alive, they say. I don't think Wicca will work out for you.

Calling Wicca fluffy is not entirely correct. Wiccan teaching within covens actually varies quite a lot, and in some traditional paths, it is alot darker and deeper than the versions which have been watered down for the mass market.

I would say read anything and everything you can get your hands on. Wicca is certainly not a bad option.. its not where I started but it is where alot of my occult friends did. Some stayed with it, and expanded upon it with their own revelations, others moved into other areas, such as traditional witchcraft.

Don't try to be 'evil' or 'good', search out a means to true self mastery and growth and pursue it with whole heart.

Glad the forums helped you out!

Here i go again...

Wicca is a lineaged Initiatory Mystery Tradition/Religion. Neo-wiccan-esqe fluffy bunny crap is not Wicca.

The new age, mostly acceptable version of wicca (notice the little w) is watered down, polluted and overly popular - especially with the dinner plate sized pentacle necklaces, 'look at me, I'm rebelling' crowd. You can pick the wheat from the chaff but with no basis or grounding in the basics - how would you know which is which? Wicca (with the little w) is pretty much the catch phrase for eclectic, pick and choose, I wanna be a witch. It's also where a lot of people start out. Some remain there while others find something of value and move forward into other areas or specialties.

Do you still want to be evil and powerful? Neo-wiccanesque is not gonna do that for you. Especially not with all the White Light, Harm None, (and I especially love) the be a door mat cuz karma will do it for me crap.

Frumens, I think I'm outgrowing the want to be "evil" per say. Perhaps a tad sinister but not necessarily evil incarnate. When I hear someone else say that I want to be evil, it makes me feel immature. I've heard of Thelema and Aleister Crowley, I'd be happy to look into it

Sypheara, I wasn't aware of that. I perceived Wicca to be a sort of entry level form of occultism. I will maintain a balance and not strive for good or evil but be myself and aim for mastery of the self, as you put it

RoseRed, with this in mind, what is good reading material on the subject of "Wicca" with a capital "w"? I would rather the former than the latter. As I said, I don't necessarily want to be "evil" but I do want to be powerful. I don't really like white light mentality either.

Is Wicca a decidedly 2 god (God/Goddess) system?

(polarity being a major theme?)

manofsands wrote:Is Wicca a decidedly 2 god (God/Goddess) system?

(polarity being a major theme?)

As my book suggests, it seems to be... Err... I hope I'm not missing something here

I actually like that quality about it. I'm not used to it because I'm only used to Christianity, and LaVeyan Satanism from experience (I've had alot more familiarity with Occultism than actual practice, FYI). Aside from that, I've never celebrated any polytheistic traditions.

Element Encyclopedia of 1000 Spells and Wicca: A Guide For the Solitary Practitioner.

Both are decent books.

I am rather fond of the Spells encyclopaedia,particularly,as it's chocka block with useful information.It's an excellent source/reference /dip in to resource. [thumbup]

And this I agree very much with too :

I think that what (paradigm) you practice is not anywhere near as important as that you practice, to the best of your ability. If you're reading it and it resonates with you, I think why not dive into it for a bit, see how far it takes you, and what results you get. It's the only way you're going to settle on something anyway

Edit: I put the paradigm in brackets to clarify that I wasn't talking about "what technique", I think the quality of your practice and technique is very important ^.^

RoseRed, with this in mind, what is good reading material on the subject of "Wicca" with a capital "w"? I would rather the former than the latter. As I said, I don't necessarily want to be "evil" but I do want to be powerful. I don't really like white light mentality either.

It's a lineaged Mystery Tradition. The books out there are going to give you Outer Court teachings, at best. The only way you're ever REALLY going to learn it is to find an actual lineaged coven and be accepted into it.

I like The Witches Bible by the Farrar's. It's 2 books repackaged into one large volume. There's a lot of good information in it. I don't think you're Mom will like it or allow it.

Buckland's Complete Book of Witchcraft is another decent entry level one.

DarkSchneider wrote:I've been searching for the right paradigm for a while right now. I am happy to say that, after all the suggestions I've been receiving on this forum, I've been feeling much better about reading,meditation, and such. Now, here are the two books I am most focused on right now: The Element Encyclopedia of 1000 Spells and Wicca: A Guide For the Solitary Practitioner.

I'm wondering mostly about Wicca right now. It seems...alright so far, at least in the context of the book I've chosen. Nothing really offends me, aside from perhaps the "three fold" law. It seems simple enough and subtle enough to follow along with that I won't be too stressed about what I'd imagine I can achieve with it. I like the God and Goddess aspect about it, being a fair and balanced idea of how to view deities. This particular book is an easy read, and I've no trouble getting through it.

My question is to those of you more experienced than I is, do you consider Wicca to be a worthy subject of practice, or is it too watered down to take seriously?

If it is not worthy, what else could be appealing to me? I've worked with LaVeyan Satanism mostly, some very basic Ceremonial Magick, and some Chaos Magick techniques. Also keep in mind, I'm mostly attracted to Chaos Magick but my friends recommended that I find some foundation works to make it easier to practice.

Well, "Worthy" is a personal judgment that is up to you to decide for yourself. I personally don't care for it in my own practice. It has too many rules and the fear of retribution for transgressions in the form of the Wrede. This, to my mind, puts it in an almost similar light to christianity, although any "judgment" coming from Wiccans seems less absolute in nature, but seems to happen on a more personal level as opposed to the blanket condemnations of the christians. Wicca offers opportunities for the beginner to practice within parameters and provides structure. These can often be good things, especially in early years. I personally like to decide on the nature and scope of the structure I put into my practice and use a variety of disciplines in my practice, so I find it personally unattractive. I also often find much of it to be anti-male, which is another reason for its lack of personal resonance. This is a reaction to the anti-female energies present in christian dogma. I see Wicca as a modern attempt to revive traditional paganism out of the ashes of christian aggression. as such, it seems to me to be a murky reflection of and is heavily influenced by, christian doctrine and dogma. My search takes me to examine evidence extant fro pre-christian culture. I don't intend to attack Wicca. I just find it constricting. I was asked for an honest opinion and have the courage and compassion to share it with one, who seems truly interested in growth.

That's not an attack, dude. It also happens to be quite similar to my own opinion.

But once Wicca broke out of the traditional covens and turned into what it is today - it's become a melting pot of ideas and eclecticism.

Depending on which author you pick up - you'll get a different version of what Wicca is. The basics are all about the same but it's like how many denominations does Christianity have?

In wiccas defense though, the original lines which still exist do now have a established tradition with traceable history, which is alot more than can be said for many other neopagan paths. The problem i have with the traditional witchcraft revival is their usual bullshit claims to lineage whilst disparaging wicca in that regard, when it is blatantly obvious who has the most established and consistent history that is verifiable.

But that is a discussion for another day i think!

My only claim to lineage is through my Matriarchal Family Line. I have no idea how many generations it goes back. That was either considered unimportant or lost over time. I know it goes back 3 generations in the States and at the very least 2-3 in the Old Country. I'm sure it goes back further but lineage was never considered all that important other than to say 'I learned it from my Mother or my Grandmother'.

To be perfectly honest - I really have no idea what goes on inside the Traditional Wiccan Coven. I'm not an Initiate. I can discuss what I see that passes for wicca today. The few actual Initiated Wiccans that I know don't talk about what they do but they have assured me that it is a more balanced approach to the God and Goddess than what it currently popular.

The problem i have with the traditional witchcraft revival is their usual bullshit claims to lineage whilst disparaging wicca in that regard,

What 'usual bullshit claims to lineage'? I'm not giving you a hard time - I just haven't paid that much attention to it. I hope that you're willing to share a little more about this specifically.

I also think it's still on topic. We're discussing Wicca. It's not surprising that other paradigms c/would be brought up. It's only in the last year that I've come across Trad Craft as a 'paradigm'. It's what I've been doing my whole life - I just called it Eclectic until last year.

And that is fine RoseRed. I was not intending to attack you or your family. As someone who posts alot on these forums and whose posts i value, and your distinctly lack of mentioning your lineage in every single one of them, alongside claims its thousands of years old, lends me to believing you quite readily.

However there are many people who make false claims online, and then jump into attacking Wicca which has an outwardly documented, long serving line of history on the grounds that it is non legitimate due to being 'new age'. I have been exposed to enough of these people, who come across as a bit 'show me on the doll where wicca touched you', to last me a lifetime so that has probably left me a little jaded as someone who thinks that witches and occultists of all shapes and sizes should stick together for mutual benefit and the power that such community brings.

Often they bash wicca for being a construction, whereas the most of traditional witchcraft IS reconstruction by nature. It doesnt help alot of them when you can see clearly wiccan ideas being assimilated into their own groups, whilst wicca is openly bashed by them.

I refer you to the largest online public facing traditional witchcraft site, which is the first result when you search for 'traditional witchcraft' in good old google. I feel that many such true traditional witches are not of that kind, so i know im just choosing a bad example, but it does pain me that alot of really good witches have to be careful using the trad witch term for their practice because of the kneejerk reactionists.

I didn't take that as a personal attack at all. I was merely continuing with the conversation.

I'm actually a member of that website so, yeah, I get what you're saying. I don't really see too much of that over there - the lineage thing. They're really not into Wicca, though. And that's why I make the distinction between the Wicca and neo-wiccan-esque. What passes for wicca today - is not. Then you have the men hating groups - I tend to avoid them completely if I can.

I have a new age, fluffy bunny cousin. It's to the point that it's almost embarrassing. She claims to be wiccan - but it's all just new age fluff. I think a lot of that is what's given Wicca the reputation that it has today. From what I know of it - it's a beautiful religion - but there's an awful lot of people running around calling themselves wiccan when they really aren't.

I had a conversation with my Mother not too long ago. She watched some talk show and decided that I had to be wiccan and she wasn't sure if she liked it. I'm like - really?!?!? I'm a witch - not a wiccan. Where's this coming from? Oh, some stupid show on tv that couldn't get it right, either. ugh.

And what's really funny - it wasn't too long ago that i had a conversation with another resident at Mom's nursing home. He started talking about how Wicca has stolen so much from Christianity. Excuse me? That's the other way around. It turned into an interesting conversation but there's so much mis-information being spouted out there. Who really expects me to defend Wicca considering how often I say 'I'm not Wiccan'? But I did because what this person was saying was blatantly false.

Anyways, it's time to go to a bday party. All I really want to do is go back to bed - i'm sick of being sick. Summer colds are the worst.

RoseRed wrote:I didn't take that as a personal attack at all. I was merely continuing with the conversation.

I'm actually a member of that website so, yeah, I get what you're saying. I don't really see too much of that over there - the lineage thing. They're really not into Wicca, though. And that's why I make the distinction between the Wicca and neo-wiccan-esque. What passes for wicca today - is not. Then you have the men hating groups - I tend to avoid them completely if I can.

I have a new age, fluffy bunny cousin. It's to the point that it's almost embarrassing. She claims to be wiccan - but it's all just new age fluff. I think a lot of that is what's given Wicca the reputation that it has today. From what I know of it - it's a beautiful religion - but there's an awful lot of people running around calling themselves wiccan when they really aren't.

I had a conversation with my Mother not too long ago. She watched some talk show and decided that I had to be wiccan and she wasn't sure if she liked it. I'm like - really?!?!? I'm a witch - not a wiccan. Where's this coming from? Oh, some stupid show on tv that couldn't get it right, either. ugh.

And what's really funny - it wasn't too long ago that i had a conversation with another resident at Mom's nursing home. He started talking about how Wicca has stolen so much from Christianity. Excuse me? That's the other way around. It turned into an interesting conversation but there's so much mis-information being spouted out there. Who really expects me to defend Wicca considering how often I say 'I'm not Wiccan'? But I did because what this person was saying was blatantly false.

Anyways, it's time to go to a bday party. All I really want to do is go back to bed - i'm sick of being sick. Summer colds are the worst.

Hope that cold goes away for you! Recently asked Hecate in a half joke to heal the light muscle and nerve damage i had been having trouble for all of last week that had been causing me alot of pain.. miraculously disappeared by today after asking and giving offering yesterday. Slightly surprised as it had just been getting worse all week. Hopefully the spirits can help you out with it, summer colds are indeed the worst, so ill try sliding it in a working tonight if you don't mind of course.

The men hating groups are the worst. Being a man, of course, it feels very hostile to be near those groups. Philosophically and spiritual, their positions are also entirely without merit, and their rejection of the divine masculine a very grave mistake to make imho. If they wish to cut off their own hands to spite themselves, let them get on with it. You do right to ignore them entirely!

Wicca is a victim of its own success. Gardner managed to popularise witchcraft, whilst also creating a powerful tradition. As with all things, when it was realised it could be mass marketed to make $$$/£££, it became watered down to be made more acceptable and thus generate maximum revenue. However the good that it has done the occult community, and witchcraft in general, cannot be overstated. With the repeal of the witchcraft laws, Gardner managed to seize his chance and create a generation of occultists and practioners which would go on to draw more into occultism and witchcraft and thus open the gates to many people who would otherwise had not known such a spiritual path existed in the first place. It would be silly to say that it did not influence Traditional Witchcraft at all; even Robert Cochrane was to some degree familiar with Wiccan practice, evidence even to say he was initiated. But often that is the case, it seems that alot of people are always trying to demonstrate how they are different from those 'lesser' wiccans.

I am not Wiccan, i might even be eclectic, i do not know what label applies to me. I simply state im a Hecatian/Luciferian witch, as i work with both. I can see where my own tradition gets its roots from, and honour all of them and the effort everyone of our forebears has taken to get us to this stage where now information is much more readily accessible.

The way in which 'popularised' wicca has been diluted by the new age crowd is a shame and definetly does cause problems, but as practitioners people shouldnt be pointing to the worse examples of a group to label it and all of its practitioners as inferior. We should all be above that by now and able to take a much more measured approach when evaluating other groups and group beliefs. You are right, Christians shouldnt be saying how much neopagan faiths nicked from it, or vice versa. The western traditions are all rather enmeshed when you begin looking at it deeply.

Cheers for the full reply considering you were ill, it was a good read.

Hey mate, how's it going?

Some thoughts on the subject from the addled brain of a permanently confused Australian:

DarkSchneider wrote:I've been searching for the right paradigm for a while...

My question is to those of you more experienced than I is, do you consider Wicca to be a worthy subject of practice, or is it too watered down to take seriously?

Obligatory disclaimer: I am not a Wiccan.

Do I consider Wicca a worthy subject of practice? Absolutely. The question really is what do you want to get out of it?

Wicca is a funny one because it seems to me that it is essentially a fusion of traditional magical practices (the Witchcraft side of it), and the more religious/spiritual/philosophical aspects of the Western occultists, most notably the Golden Dawn and Thelema. What Gardner has done in this respect is basically taken Thelemite/Qabalistic/Eastern ideas of Divinity as being a three-point wheel (Source, God and Goddess - Kether, Chokmah and Binah - Chaos, Hadit and Nuit - Tao, Yang and Yin etc etc) and fused it into a more easily comprehensible system with the remnants of earlier pagan belief systems.

Thus, a Wiccan coven will typically worship one pagan God and Goddess above all others, taking them as their personal reflection of the Male and Female aspects of creative energy. I think that's quite lovely, it's just a different way of getting your head around the whole question, really.

In that sense, I see essentially no difference between Wiccan religious practice and the more obscure (and more dramatised) dogma of Aleister Crowley. The fact that Gerald Gardner was a high ranking initiate of O.T.O. before founding Wicca says a lot.

Now all of this is separate to the Witchcraft side of Wicca - that is, the parts of Wiccan practice you find under the chapters on Magic.

Even if you think that getting naked and singing praise to Artemis and Pan in the pale moonlight is all rather silly, that doesn't mean you might not find something of value in practising Wiccan magic. The whole lot tends to be thrown together in a bundle, but it need not be.

So again, I suppose the question is what do you want to get out of it? If you are seeking to deepen your understanding or relationship with divinity or explore other such transcendental concepts, I see no reason at all why Wicca is not a valid path in doing so. If you are simply looking for development of magical abilities, I see no reason why Wicca can't give you that either.

Wicca suffers from being too popular. All the holier-than-thou wankers who crawl around internet message boards putting shit on Wicca because they're so far above it remind me of the same kind of hipster morons who will love a musician until they become famous and successful, at which point they will throw away all their albums and move onto the next thing that's sufficiently 'underground'.

All of this comes from what I can gather about Wicca, of course. As RoseRed pointed out, there is likely to be some difference between the Wicca of the solitary book-lover, and the traditional Wicca of the coven requiring initiation. That being said, both Raymond Buckland and Scott Cunningham were initiated into traditional Covens, and both hasten to assert that it is not necessary to be initiated into a coven to learn enough to be a practising Wiccan. So maybe what you see really is more or less what you get. I wouldn't know.

If it is not worthy, what else could be appealing to me? I've worked with LaVeyan Satanism mostly, some very basic Ceremonial Magick, and some Chaos Magick techniques. Also keep in mind, I'm mostly attracted to Chaos Magick but my friends recommended that I find some foundation works to make it easier to practice.

Read everything that strikes your fancy. I've come to the viewpoint that when it comes to the occult, we're all exploring the same thing anyway. It's largely the aesthetic and the method of comprehension that varies. You're of course familiar with the phrase "The more things change, the more they stay the same"? I think it's kind of like that. Low magic, High magic... it's all in the eye of the beholder.

If I could find a proper Wiccan coven that would initiate me, I'd jump at the chance. The problem is, the only local 'coven' I've been introduced to is run by a 50-something New Ager who runs her 'Circle' as a business - a space to "celebrate the power of She" for just $60 per workshop. Gawd. It isn't fair to judge a whole tradition as garbage because some questionable types hijack it and use it as a vehicle to make money out of people and hate on men.

To further address the original question I've found this article, which may be of value to the person asking:

http://www.inominandum.com/blog/eclecti ... ne-part-1/

Both very cool posts, enjoyed that link.

He makes a strong point when it comes to cultural appropriation and how the term has been hijacked!

Thank you everyone, for your helpful posts

I think I will give Wicca a chance. I only have one more question:

I had a dream suggesting that I should follow Osiris and Isis, but is that possible with the Wiccan path and traditions? My book seems to suggest I can follow Osiris(Wicca:A Guide For the Solitary Practitioner), but I'm not so sure about both Osiris and Isis. The Moon usually represents a female goddess but the only moon themed god I can think of is Thoth, and he's male.

Should I consider my dream just irrelevant or pursue Osiris and Isis as my deities?

Never consider your dreams irrelevent, would be my advice. As for the rest, I couldnt say as im not wiccan myself.

Sypheara wrote:Never consider your dreams irrelevent, would be my advice. As for the rest, I couldnt say as im not wiccan myself.

I'll try to do some research, but that sounds like fair advice

You can follow and worship any deity you like. The person that wrote the book follows Osiris and Isis. Personally, I would choose a god or goddess that you're familiar with. Egyptian culture is a lot to learn. You're not playing whack a mole and hitting up whichever one you come across first. To follow a deity includes worship and devotion.

Are you actually ready for that?

And you don't need to follow a god or goddess to be a solitary practitioner.

RoseRed wrote:You can follow and worship any deity you like. The person that wrote the book follows Osiris and Isis. Personally, I would choose a god or goddess that you're familiar with. Egyptian culture is a lot to learn. You're not playing whack a mole and hitting up whichever one you come across first. To follow a deity includes worship and devotion.

Are you actually ready for that?

And you don't need to follow a god or goddess to be a solitary practitioner.

I have to be honest; I've NEVER worshiped any god or goddess besides the Judeo-Christian God. As a LaVeyan, I mostly looked toward myself. So I have no idea who I'd want to worship, aside from taking an interest in the Egyptian Pantheon. I'm looking for a rather neutral outlook now, I'm not as interested in being evil like before.

Hm, well, I guess I don't need to follow any deities, but I'd like to. It might give me a bit more of a clear objective and focus. Do you really recommend not following any?