OccultForum.org

Do you have a question about how this forum is run? Please feel free to PM me your question. I believe in full, open, and honest disclosure wherever possible. If I can answer your question, then I will do so. Do you wish to discuss something that you believe simply isnt right? I would rather that forum members brought any issues to the attention of one of the staff instead of just leaving the forum in disgust.

If you find a thread or post that you feel breaks the Forum Rules or Terms and Conditions, then please report it. If you wish to discuss anything that you feel either damages the forum, or doesn't fit here, then please contact either me or another staff member.

Thank you [thumbup]

Below is a section of a PM that was sent to me today. I have posted it here with the authors permission as it addresses several key points in regards to how we plan on running the forum in the future.

Do you guys plan to continue modding my by making public accusations and character assassination attempts followed by immediately locking the thread and not expecting a public response to public accusations?

No. Do you have any examples of me doing this? If so, could you please send me a link to the thread?

Do plan to continue the tradition of locking threads and demanding that the poster contact admin instead of following a normal protocol of contacting a member when there is a problem?

If we believe that a forum member should contact a moderator or admin regarding their posting, then they will be asked to do so. This will be done either on the thread, or through a PM direct to the member. Whether the member is contacted in private or in public will depend on the thread, and if a public display is necessary. In most cases, members will be asked to contact a moderator or admin privately. The only time I can think of a member being asked to contact a moderator or admin publically would be if other members were reacting to inflammatory posts and it needed to be obvious that the moderators and admins had stepped in. Threads will be locked if they have devolved into a flame war. If they have drifted too far off topic, they will be split.

Do you plan on trying to keep the study group information correct and accurate? I read the post about if you don't agree then don't say anything. I personally completely disagree that spirit keeping is the same as getting a dog or a pet. Do you? It's not my study group but the way the post you wrote was written it came across as if 'it doesn't matter if the info is accurate or correct. If you don't like it - go write your own.' How exactly does that help anyone if what's being taught is inaccurate or possibly dangerous.

I have changed the wording in the post in question. Could you please let me know if it now fits the idea that members shouldn't simply engage in study groups to put down the person writing them, but are welcome to discuss subject matter so long as they comply with Forum Rules, and dont engage in flaming.

How long do you guys plan on allowing discussions of murdering and raping children to continue? If this is the road that OF is going down - I want no part of that shit. Over the last week I've seen some posts that are downright disturbing. Is this what OF is becoming? What you guys want it to turn into? You guys are trying to recruit new members and this is the kind of crap that is currently on the boards. What kind of crowd do you believe this will draw in?

Please report any post that you come across that breaks Forum Rules. If you do this then we will take measures to address your concerns.

Do you have a protocol in place for suicidal posts?

People who are suicidal will either a) make a cry for help, or b) commit suicide. Posting on a forum that you are thinking about killing yourself will be taken extremely seriously, and will be addressed by forum staff. Please report any posts that you see which look like they are cries for help from suicidal members.

Do you plan to continue to allow spell begging or demands to be taught? Do you guys plan to continue encouraging it?

Posts asking for spells, or sharing spells, belong on the Spell sharing board. If they are found anywhere else, they will be moved to that board. These posts need to follow Forum Rules and Terms and Conditions. If they do not then they will be dealt with in the same manner that any posts are dealt with that break Forum Rules or Terms and Conditions.

Do you realize how many advanced practitioners have left in the last couple years? Or why they have?

Yes, I realise that we have lost a lot of advanced practitioners. As to why, I couldn't tell you. There are many reasons why members leave a forum, and we can't force them to stay. I am working on ways to attract advanced practitioners and people new to the occult. I can't force people to visit here, or to post on the boards.

I like this place. I do care about it. I can see that you guys are trying to make changes here. I can only hope that these are changes for the better.

Thank you for taking the time to write this to me. With your permission, could I please post this on the forum, as it addresses key things that I think other members could benefit from?

Someone has asked me why I don't just discipline members when I naturally come across posts containing material which breaks Forum Rules or Terms and Conditions, especially in threads I'm taking part in.

The answer is actually rather mundane. I'm human, and I miss things, or fail to trust my own judgment and think I may be over reacting to punish someone for something said as a joke, albeit in bad taste.

Some comments exist in a gray area of interpretation, and it sometimes requires other people to make a case as to why they may have gone too far over the line. The staff will definitely step in immediately if a post is obviously spam, illegal, or threatens anyone directly, but instances where the matter must be first considered may require others to make a stand from time to time.

This is your forum as much as ours. Your input is valued. If you want to see this forum succeed and develop in a way you feel it should then please help us to make it the place you want it to be. [thumbup]

I enjoy receiving PM messages from you all, and try to answer every message. Please remember that I also work full time, have a family, and a social life outside of the forum. I will respond to every message I receive, but may take a couple of days to do so.

Thank you for your patience [thumbup]

Very useful information concerning the ethics of the forum and (from what i've noticed) the most active and attentive moderator. Thank you for answering all these questions Clockwork_Ghost.

This conversation has been added to the thread under permission from JohnTitor

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:

JohnTitor wrote: I am curious as to what spurned the action to question the users about the school?

I don't want changes to be made to the forum structure that damage its cohesion. The idea, while being an interesting one, needs to be fully realised before it can be said to be both possible and a viable option.

JohnTitor wrote: As for the study groups, I will take a gander before posing any questions about them.

Good plan. There are currently two study groups running, neither of which have anything obviously happening in them.

JohnTitor wrote: Do you think it would be wise to attempt to build a model foundation for which the school concept could be tried and judged vs simple inquiry regarding it?

Please expand on what you mean here. I personally see the existence of Study groups to be a viable testing ground for a fully blown school of magickal learning. At this stage, we have no teachers to teach anything in a school, and many of the questions I posed in relation to the idea have gone unanswered.

JohnTitor wrote: Also, I am curious as to how you personally feel about it as I saw nothing by you regarding how you personally feel about it, just responding to questions and prevalent issues pointed out by other members.

I don't have a personal opinion in regards to this. Having a personal opinion would make me biased, which would limit my effectiveness as a moderator.

JohnTitor wrote: Also, I may be doing this for the sole purpose of self satisfaction rather than my conscious thought which is experimental;

I am happy to answer any question that you or any other forum member poses. I will do so honestly, and openly.

JohnTitor wrote: How old did you start studying AND practicing?

I have lived in the realms of magick and illusion since I first learned to read. I never fitted in, and spent all my childhood reading books. My active studies into magick began when I was raped, at age 13. In terms of actually obtaining results through my practice of magick, this probably first occurred when I was 16.

JohnTitor wrote: I started at the age of 11 before much influence had been rooted so deeply that they would be so difficult to over-come. I am in my 9th year. I noted that you said in 27 years, but that only deepens my curiosity. If it is not too personal I mean.

I consider my actual learning of magick as beginning when I first started getting measurable results, this being when I was 16. I will be 43 years old this year, making my total study of effective magick 27 years in length.

JohnTitor wrote: Many thanks,
Titor

I sincerely hope this information is taken to heart by all those who have read it. There is nothing worse than information gone to waste, and i'm sure many have had these unasked questions at least come up in their mind.

Shinichi wrote:The whole "don't question the mod" thing is rather stuck up and unnecessary. If someone feels the need to call something out, privately or publicly, they should be able to do so. Especially if they are somewhat reasonable about it, and are not really attacking anyone or hurting anything.

The message I am trying to impart is that this isn't a case of 'don't question the mod', it is 'Please follow the Forum Rules and Terms and Conditions'. These two documents are designed to make the forum welcoming for both people new to the occult, and more seasoned practitioners. Too many forums end up suffering because of 'cult of personality' situations, where members start to think they are above the rules due to their place in the forum community. Likewise, forums also suffer when new members post information and immediately get flamed by older members, or have their experiences and abilities questioned in a derogatory way.

I WANT people to question the moderation here - that was the primary reason why I started this thread. There is a time and place to question authority however - the Forum Rules actually say that if you wish to discuss something in regards to the way the forum is being run to please send a PM to a staff member. Simply starting an argument in public just results in people being forced into a position where they may 'lose face' if they back down. I don't want this to happen - I deeply respect the contributions of every single person on this forum, and believe that if we can discuss things in private we can resolve the issue, and changes can be made. If you want changes made to the structure of the forum, please post on the Wish list board. If you wish to bring something to the attention of the staff, and it isn't about the actions of another forum member, please post on the Site discussion board.

Shinichi wrote:Flame wars? No, don't allow that. Calling out issues that are becoming problematic? Yes, that can actually help the community, because you end up with community input on the issue instead of a bunch of behind the scenes decisions that may not actually be that good for the community.

Like I mentioned above, if you want to talk about something to do with the forum which needs to be changed, please feel free to post to either the Wish list board or the Site discussion board. Please just make sure that you don't break Forum Rules or Terms and Conditions by posting things that are not allowed. Currently we are looking in to the name of the Occult Fiction board, as there is no place on the forum for Occult Non-Fiction. If a forum member brings such things to the attention of the staff then we can make changes. If people don't tell us what they want changed then things don't get changed. This is your forum as much as anyone else’s, and we want it to be the place you want it to be.

Shinichi wrote:A mod team, or any group of community leadership, is constructed of people. When you separate the leadership from their status as people by attempting to elevate or protect them, you create a chasm in the community. Genuine leaders do not need to fight so hard to defend their stature - their stature stands on its own.

I agree with you 100%. I am not trying to fight to defend my stature. If you think I am being confrontational, then please feel free to report my behaviour to Vashta. The Forum Rules state that I also have to abide by the rules at all times. I believe in being open and honest in everything I do. I am also willing to answer every single question asked of me with 100% honesty in an open manner. I ask everyone who sends me PM messages for their permission to post material in this thread. Your privacy is equally as important to me as my own honesty and openness.

Thank you [thumbup]

For what it's worth, I think this forum is well run and am grateful to all for all the work they do behind the scenes to give us such a great resource. Thank you. [thumbup]

Falls in with governing the forum and the same issue will arise within the conceptual school on a much larger scale. Mentioned in the Great Web of Occult Practice
here

http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... 77#p492477

and thus far I have seen little call for questioning Clockwork_Ghost, more so the absence of any other presence regularly is more concerning as he is taking on all their responsibility.

I have changed the Forum Rules in regards to where to post books and book-related material. New rules have been added to the Forum Rules, and now read as follows:

BOOKS

1. To share sections from your fictional books, please post on the Occult Fiction board. To share sections from your non-fictional books, please post on the Text board.
2. If you wish people to review your books, please post on the General art board.
3. To post links to where other people can purchase copies of your books, please post on the Bazaar board
4. To use a reference from a book to support your argument in a thread, please post a link to the specific information, not just the whole book itself.
5. To post links to other peoples books, where those books could be considered to be reputable tools for learning magick, please post on the Learning Tools and Resources board. You can also post information about other peoples occult themed books on the Text board.

REMEMBER: All material posted on this forum must comply with the Forum Rules and Terms and Conditions.

Thank you [thumbup]

Duly noted

Someone asked me the other day why nobody was responding to their posts, and if that meant that people were ignoring them. I used to feel the same way when I first began on Occult Forum.org. Over the years I've found that this is seldom the case. The threads on Occult Forum.org are all about the sharing of knowledge and experience. If you post something, and other people like what you have posted, then you will seldom get a reply that simply says 'Well done! Great post!'. Rest assured that if it seems that nobody is responding to your posts it often means that they respect your opinion enough not to question it. If you post material that they don't agree with then you will more than likely be asked to debate it. [grin]

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:The message I am trying to impart is that this isn't a case of 'don't question the mod', it is 'Please follow the Forum Rules and Terms and Conditions'. These two documents are designed to make the forum welcoming for both people new to the occult, and more seasoned practitioners.

Your intentions are clear and quite pure hearted I know, but the result is the same. When someone gets scolded for asking about a mod decision in the thread where that decision was made, that creates intimidation and a "don't question the mods" atmosphere. It isn't the mods that are the issue here, it is the rules they are required to enforce. Or maybe not even the rule, but the seriousness that is directed towards the rules. We're a forum, for crying out loud, not a city state. As long as nobody's talking murder and mayhem or doing anything else illegal and rude, we're usually good. It seems strange to punish discussion that isn't rude or disruptive.

Rules should usually be used as guidelines and structure, not fences and shackles.

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:Too many forums end up suffering because of 'cult of personality' situations, where members start to think they are above the rules due to their place in the forum community. Likewise, forums also suffer when new members post information and immediately get flamed by older members, or have their experiences and abilities questioned in a derogatory way.

And those are good things to be mindful of, but what does that have to do with publicly talking about mod decisions, or even just politely asking why regarding a particular one? Publicly explaining or clarifying or anything similar has nothing to do with a personality cult, or senior ego.

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:I WANT people to question the moderation here - that was the primary reason why I started this thread. There is a time and place to question authority however - the Forum Rules actually say that if you wish to discuss something in regards to the way the forum is being run to please send a PM to a staff member. Simply starting an argument in public just results in people being forced into a position where they may 'lose face' if they back down. I don't want this to happen - I deeply respect the contributions of every single person on this forum, and believe that if we can discuss things in private we can resolve the issue, and changes can be made. If you want changes made to the structure of the forum, please post on the Wish list board. If you wish to bring something to the attention of the staff, and it isn't about the actions of another forum member, please post on the Site discussion board.

There is a time and place indeed.

If a personal discussion becomes an argument, that should be settled in private between the parties involved.

If a public discussion remains polite and a question is publicly asked, there is no harm in politely answering that public question publicly. If anything, it should save the moderation time and effort of potentially dealing with a lot of pm's or a lot more silently disgruntled people, because the one answer can answer the question for everybody. No face loss necessary. No fighting necessary.

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:Like I mentioned above, if you want to talk about something to do with the forum which needs to be changed, please feel free to post to either the Wish list board or the Site discussion board. Please just make sure that you don't break Forum Rules or Terms and Conditions by posting things that are not allowed.

It doesn't really matter to me whether the rules change or not. I've gotten along with most people here just fine so far simply by being chill and polite. I think the only reason that this came up at all now is because it seemed like a decent thing to mention, considering what else we were discussing.

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:I agree with you 100%. I am not trying to fight to defend my stature. If you think I am being confrontational, then please feel free to report my behaviour to Vashta. The Forum Rules state that I also have to abide by the rules at all times. I believe in being open and honest in everything I do. I am also willing to answer every single question asked of me with 100% honesty in an open manner. I ask everyone who sends me PM messages for their permission to post material in this thread. Your privacy is equally as important to me as my own honesty and openness.

I don't think that any of the mods are being confrontational or defensive, I just think that forbidding people from discussing a mod decision publicly comes off as oppressive and probably makes the mods or even the community itself seem that way. Sometimes. What you make of that is up to you, I just thought you might want to know about it.

*shrugs*

I have little problem with anyone or any of the decisions that have been made while I've been here. One of my favorite things about OF is that it's such a relaxed and laid back forum, and it seems strange to disrupt that even sparingly with what may or may not be unnecessary strictness. I'm just sorta voicing thoughts, though - others can consider long term decisions on the matter, and I'll roll with that either way too.



~:Shin:~

A quick warning before you begin reading this post - it is rather long.

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:The message I am trying to impart is that this isn't a case of 'don't question the mod', it is 'Please follow the Forum Rules and Terms and Conditions'. These two documents are designed to make the forum welcoming for both people new to the occult, and more seasoned practitioners.

Shinichi wrote: Your intentions are clear and quite pure hearted I know, but the result is the same. When someone gets scolded for asking about a mod decision in the thread where that decision was made, that creates intimidation and a "don't question the mods" atmosphere. It isn't the mods that are the issue here, it is the rules they are required to enforce. Or maybe not even the rule, but the seriousness that is directed towards the rules. We're a forum, for crying out loud, not a city state. As long as nobody's talking murder and mayhem or doing anything else illegal and rude, we're usually good. It seems strange to punish discussion that isn't rude or disruptive.

A forum is still a community, and a community needs rules to stop it from devolving into absolute chaos. The intention of the Forum Rules and Terms and Conditions is to act as a guideline as to how to behave on the forum. Certain rules are specific because they cover legal issues. Even though we are an international forum, we must abide by UK law because the server is in the UK. If we don't abide by UK law, and we are reported to the people who own the server, then the forum gets shut down. I will go into detail about what the Forum Rules and Terms and Conditions actually mean later on, in another post to this thread

If someone does something illegal, including making direct threats or purposely breaking copyright laws, then they will be banned immediately and may be reported to the police. Members who break Forum Rules or Terms and Conditions are handled differently, and some leniency is always applied wherever possible. I don't believe that I have 'scolded' anyone yet - I try to treat everyone how I wish to be treated myself. I apologise if I have ever come across as 'scolding' a member - this was never my intention. I do however believe in the need for rules, and will ask that others try to follow them while they are on the forum.

Below is a detailed account of all the recorded moderator decisions that have resulted in direct action being taken. I'm sorry if I've missed any, but these are taken from the records I've compiled during my time as a moderator. Please feel free to add to the list if there are decisions missing and I will try to explain them also:

1. grimmos: Asked if he needed help with his posting as it was becoming harder to understand.
2. Tasyer: Spam-bot. Spam deleted and member banned.
3. Stoineack: Spam-bot. Spam deleted and member banned,
4. Mossuline: Spam-bot. Spam deleted and member banned.
5. Mourn: Used excessive profanity, hate speech, and strong discriminatory language. Received three warnings on three separate occasions and was banned. Was asked repeatedly to stop being anti-social. Ignored all warnings.
6. Jietdan: Spam-bot. Spam deleted and member banned.
7. Klavier: Turned out to be an alter ego for a previously banned user. Member was banned again.
8. lordar: Spam-bot. Spam was deleted and member was banned.
9. caisskal: Spam-bot. Spam was deleted and member was banned.
10. manonthepath: Was reported for alleged abuse of another member. Was found to not have breached Forum Rules or Terms and Conditions. No warning issued.
11. cyberdemon: Was reported for a possible inflammatory post. Post was deemed to be on the wrong board, but not to break Forum Rules or Terms and Conditions and was moved to the correct board. No warning issued.
12. TheAwakenedHeart: Was reported for including links in a post that broke the Forum Rules and Terms and Conditions. Links were removed. No warning issued.
13. Desecrated: Was reported several times for anti-social comments and advice that another member should kill children. Received a warning, but proceeded to do exactly the same thing again and was warned a second time. Decided to argue about the rules in public, and was asked to talk to a staff member direct. Refused to contact a staff member and continued to argue, so was banned for seven days.
14. Taneld: Spam-bot. Spam was deleted and member was banned.
15. cyberdemon: Posted links to copyright material, but asked for clarification on rules. Material was deemed to break Forum Rules and Terms and Conditions due to copyright infringement, and was removed. No warning issued.

I personally can't see how this list shows the rules to be being 'rigidly enforced'. The only members who have been banned were Mourn, a few spammers, and an alter-ego of a previously banned member. Desecrated isn't banned permanently, and I personally received quite a few messages asking me to please do something about his behaviour because it was anti-social. I spoke to him in PM messages, and have spoken to him on the Facebook page. If he comes back to the forum and acts in a way that reflects his obviously extensive abilities as an occultist then he will have nothing to fear.

Shinichi wrote: Rules should usually be used as guidelines and structure, not fences and shackles.

Rules need to be enforced, or there is no point having rules. I don't see any of the rules as being 'fences and shackles', they are there to ensure that the forum remains a civil community and that everyone has a chance to discuss occult matters without fear of being abused. Some rules are there to legally protect the forum, while others are there to make sure everyone treats one another with respect.

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:Too many forums end up suffering because of 'cult of personality' situations, where members start to think they are above the rules due to their place in the forum community. Likewise, forums also suffer when new members post information and immediately get flamed by older members, or have their experiences and abilities questioned in a derogatory way.

Shinichi wrote: And those are good things to be mindful of, but what does that have to do with publicly talking about mod decisions, or even just politely asking why regarding a particular one? Publicly explaining or clarifying or anything similar has nothing to do with a personality cult, or senior ego.

Lets use an analogy. Picture a work place where James and Mary sit next to one another all day. Mary has eight cats, and likes to talk to another workmate about cats. James calls Mary a whore one day, and tells her that she is a crazy cat lady who nobody will ever love. James happens to be a senior team member, while Mary started three months ago. Should James get away with this? Does the fact that James is a senior team member who sells the most air-conditioning units a month allow him to be anti-social?

The team leader steps in. He asks James to speak to him in private about his comments. James tells him to go fuck himself, and says that he is a filthy communist. Should the team leader just respond in public? Of course not. Even if James just said he wasn't willing to discuss the matter in private it still needs to be dealt with, or James will soon believe that he can say whatever he wants.

This thread we are posting on is a perfect place to discuss issues concerning forum moderation. Simply starting an argument about moderation on a thread destroys the thread. Discussing moderation in private, and expressing your concerns over something you believe to be unnecessary can lead to positive changes. Arguing in public rarely does.

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:I WANT people to question the moderation here - that was the primary reason why I started this thread. There is a time and place to question authority however - the Forum Rules actually say that if you wish to discuss something in regards to the way the forum is being run to please send a PM to a staff member. Simply starting an argument in public just results in people being forced into a position where they may 'lose face' if they back down. I don't want this to happen - I deeply respect the contributions of every single person on this forum, and believe that if we can discuss things in private we can resolve the issue, and changes can be made. If you want changes made to the structure of the forum, please post on the Wish list board. If you wish to bring something to the attention of the staff, and it isn't about the actions of another forum member, please post on the Site discussion board.

Shinichi wrote: There is a time and place indeed.

If a personal discussion becomes an argument, that should be settled in private between the parties involved.

In an ideal world, this would be great. If two people can privately resolve a matter, then by all means do so. Lets look at that previous analogy though, and see how discussing the matter in private may go for James and Mary.

Mary: James, please don't call me a whore - that's just rude. And just because you don't like cats doesn't mean you have the right to call me names.
James: Get fucked. If you don't like the way I treat you then you should quit. I'm one of the big players around here, and you are just a useless nobody.
Mary: But you're so mean! Can you at least explain to me why you call me such horrible things?
James: Why should I? You're too much of an idiot to even understand what I say.

Discussing problems in private can lead to even bigger problems. If you can resolve your issues between yourselves then that is up to the both of you. If the private conversation gets out of hand then you should contact a staff member to help.

Shinichi wrote: If a public discussion remains polite and a question is publicly asked, there is no harm in politely answering that public question publicly. If anything, it should save the moderation time and effort of potentially dealing with a lot of pm's or a lot more silently disgruntled people, because the one answer can answer the question for everybody. No face loss necessary. No fighting necessary.

99% of public discussion on the forum remains polite. Any questions which need to be addressed to moderators in regards to moderation of the forum should be either added to this thread or addressed to the staff. Starting a conversation about moderation in the middle of a thread destroys the thread. If a staff member makes a formal ruling in a thread then that formal ruling has come from a discussion by all the staff, and isn't just the decisions of a single person. Rulings are deemed final because there has to be some point where an argument ends. Just like you wouldn't argue with your team leader over correct use of the internet at work, unless you wished to face disciplinary action, you shouldn't argue about a formal decision. If you wish to discuss a specific rule, then do so on the Site discussion board.

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:Like I mentioned above, if you want to talk about something to do with the forum which needs to be changed, please feel free to post to either the Wish list board or the Site discussion board. Please just make sure that you don't break Forum Rules or Terms and Conditions by posting things that are not allowed.

Shinichi wrote: It doesn't really matter to me whether the rules change or not. I've gotten along with most people here just fine so far simply by being chill and polite. I think the only reason that this came up at all now is because it seemed like a decent thing to mention, considering what else we were discussing.

I agree, and I believe we can all get along fine so long as we don't become anti-social or act in an illegal manner. Thank you for posting your thoughts - your input is very much welcomed [thumbup]

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:I agree with you 100%. I am not trying to fight to defend my stature. If you think I am being confrontational, then please feel free to report my behaviour to Vashta. The Forum Rules state that I also have to abide by the rules at all times. I believe in being open and honest in everything I do. I am also willing to answer every single question asked of me with 100% honesty in an open manner. I ask everyone who sends me PM messages for their permission to post material in this thread. Your privacy is equally as important to me as my own honesty and openness.

Shinichi wrote: I don't think that any of the mods are being confrontational or defensive, I just think that forbidding people from discussing a mod decision publicly comes off as oppressive and probably makes the mods or even the community itself seem that way. Sometimes. What you make of that is up to you, I just thought you might want to know about it.

Again, thank you for bringing that to my attention. We are not trying to be oppressive, and I apologise if that is how you view the staff on the forum. We are simply using a set of Forum Rules and Terms and Conditions to ensure that the forum complies with UK law and remains a place that people can freely discuss things without fear of abuse, or having their core beliefs attacked. Anti-social behaviour kills forums.

Shinichi wrote: I have little problem with anyone or any of the decisions that have been made while I've been here. One of my favorite things about OF is that it's such a relaxed and laid back forum, and it seems strange to disrupt that even sparingly with what may or may not be unnecessary strictness. I'm just sorta voicing thoughts, though - others can consider long term decisions on the matter, and I'll roll with that either way too.

It is my intention to not disrupt the 'laid back' feel of the forum. I know I've done a lot here in a short space of time, and look forward to the point where the Forum Rules and Terms and Conditions are simply a way of life. It takes time to fully implement change, and I hope my changes will ensure that this place remains a great place to be. [grin]

I'm heading out in a bit to go meet with the hospice nurse. We took my Dad off of life support yesterday. He rallied when I got there and even more so after he watched my step brother and I forgive each other and make peace. I don't know how long he'll hold on but everyone at the hospital is surprised he's not dead yet. That's where I'm at todya.

I also suck at talking in circles, sugar coating and beating around the bush.

I don't think anyone is discussing CG or any of his decisions so far. Dude, you've been awesome, fair, and I believe you can make this place great again.

So, how about we cut through the bullshit.

Saving face? Really? That's what you're calling it? We all know that we're talking about the last upset between Nahemah and myself. I wasn't saving face. I was placed in a position where I was forced to defend my Honor and my Integrity. There's a chasm between those two things. At the time, I truly didn't care if I was banned for it or not. I was on the verge of leaving depending on how it turned out. The word 'moderation' should not be used as an excuse for a personal attack on any member by staff.

Being given an order to contact a mod? I think most of us here have a problem with being treated like kindergartener's being called to the principals office over the loudspeaker. If a mod has something to say - it's standard nettiquette to post on the thread if necessary and send the member in question a pm. I, and almnost everyone I've spioken to in pm or email agrees that it is a degrading practice and it really pisses people off.

Which brings us to another question. Are you, CG, personally capable of building personal relationships with members and able to retain the ability to mod without that personal emotion getting in the way?

You asked for questions and honest discussion. This is what people are talking about behind the scenes - and I'm not the only one informing you that the background discussion is going in these directions.

You really need to stop asking what you've done wrong. You've been great. No one's really talking about what's gone on since you got here.

And for the record, no one needs to worry about my behavior, my 'cult of personality' or trying to take over the forum. If there's ever a reason that I need to defend myself publicly again because of the actions taken by staff - I won't be returning. It's that simple.

So, my last question is - can we really have an honest discussion about what's really going on instead of talking in circles and tiptoeing around it? Or is that not allowed under the rules and we're required to follow the gag order that's in place?

Without engaging in any further flaming, this may be a pertinent time to remind you, Rosered, that all moderation adjudications made about you were done so with the full knowledge, participation and agreement of Vashta, the site owner and primary administrator'

You are beating a dead horse and you know you are. Adjudication against you at the time, was final, dealt with by all staff and agreed upon and is now over.

By continuing in this vein you have already breached forum rules once more and you are fully aware of doing so.

You are not questioning my judgement alone, you are claiming Vashta's forum policies and rules are unfair and that I have a personal agenda against you. This is not the case at all, I have no time for such behaviour, never mind the inclination for it and I too have very serious family and personal affairs which must be attended to, hence my stepping away from the very involved role of administrator, for the time being, at least.

You and perhaps others, should also be aware that the status of benefactor means that I still have moderation rights and accesses. You have attacked a staff member on the open forum once more, but I do posit, in fairness, that you did so in the mistaken belief that I was fully absent from the site.

Thread locking serves the purpose of stopping the flow of conversation to prevent escalation of situations where flaming is present or can escalate from, pending staff discussions and decisions in regard to the thread or those who have posted in it.

This is a non negiotable part of our policy, which has been repeatedly laid out by Clockwork_ Ghost in the last few days.

I'm locking this one now, pending staff discussion, it may re open again later, but all members should make sure they are fully conversant with the rules again, before any further posts are made, if it does reopen.

RoseRed wrote: I suck at talking in circles, sugar coating and beating around the bush.

Honesty and openness as all times is a good credo to live by. [thumbup]

RoseRed wrote: I don't think anyone is discussing CG or any of his decisions so far. Dude, you've been awesome, fair, and I believe you can make this place great again.

Thank you. I believe that this place was great before I became a benefactor, moderator or administrator. All I'm doing is simply cleaning the forum up a bit. All the rules I've posted already existed, they were just spread out all over the place in different posts. I haven't created anything, just made things easier to find. Please remember that 'being fair' means 'not taking sides'. No matter how much I like someone, or value them as a friend outside the forum, my sole job here is to ensure that the forum continues to run smoothly.

RoseRed wrote: So, how about we cut through the bullshit.

Okay. I didn't know I was 'bullshitting' anyone, I thought I was being pretty honest to date.

RoseRed wrote: Saving face? Really? That's what you're calling it?

This is the dictionary definition of the idiom 'save face': 'Avoid humiliation or embarrassment, preserve dignity, as in Rather than fire him outright, they let him save face by accepting his resignation. The phrase, which uses face in the sense of "outward appearances," is modelled on the antonym lose face. [Late 1800s]

RoseRed wrote: We all know that we're talking about the last upset between Nahemah and myself. I wasn't saving face. I was placed in a position where I was forced to defend my Honor and my Integrity. There's a chasm between those two things. At the time, I truly didn't care if I was banned for it or not. I was on the verge of leaving depending on how it turned out. The word 'moderation' should not be used as an excuse for a personal attack on any member by staff.

I actually wasn't referring to your previous disagreement with Nahemah at all, I was referring to an issue with an old Chaos Magick forum I used to be a part of where one of the older members accused someone else of blocking their application to join the IOT due to personal reasons. It turned out that the application had been lost in transit, but the issue completely exploded into a massive flame-war. As the person making the accusations then looked like a complete idiot, they made yet more accusations to stop themselves from 'losing face' in the eyes of the community, which ultimately resulted in a moderator banning them. They couldn't back down, as admitting that they were insecure about whether they would get accepted, and whether other members of the order who were on the same forum would simply block them from joining, put their own abilities into question.

I hunted down the old 'Evolution of consciousness' thread that started your current conflict with Nahemah, and it's really confusing and seems to be missing posts. I have no idea who said what, but it looks like certain allegations were made as to Nahemah's personal use of chemognosis. The thread looks like it may have become a bit of a flame war, but like I said I cant really follow it that well. The 'Inanna Apple Love spell help' thread was a bit of a mess, and seems to be full of direct insults and trolling. You have to admit you did reference rather a fluffy book in an attempt to refute fluff. I know that you know a lot about magick and the occult, and I respect your opinion on such things, but if you are going to refute someone's argument on the basis of their ignorance of the topic then using a more reputable text would be a good plan.

The 'E.A. Koetting allegedly arrested on gun and drug charges' thread is again one massive mess of conjecture. For all his faults, E.A. Koetting is actually a pretty good occultist, and was rather approachable and happy to discuss things before his ascension to 'fame' through the BALG franchise. Although quite a few people don't agree with his accusations that all other systems of magick are worthless, and the way he runs his business like a rock star and targets people new to the occult, just because you have a personal opinion of the guy doesnt give you the right to call him out in public for the way he does business. I'm a member of the DKMU - we troll the living shit out of E.A. Koetting, but we do so in a way that makes the BALG concept amusing, not just through calling the founder names.

Now, I understand Traditional Craft - I'm a Hedge Witch myself when I take up the paradigm, and I know how fiery and intense real witches can be. For all the gods sakes though, try to restrain that anger of yours! Just because someone asks you to not troll and flame on a forum doesn't mean that they're questioning your honour and integrity. Posting a public announcement on the forum with the sole intention of starting a flame war isn't the way to deal with things - send Nahemah a PM if it happens again. What did you think was going to happen when you posted your 'my response to Nahemah's very public accusations' thread? That Nahemah would apologise to you in public and agree that everything she did was wrong? This is an example of causing someone to 'lose face' if they don't respond in a certain way. You chose to air your dirty laundry and backed Nahemah up against the wall. We DO NOT start threads simply to argue about other threads, this is an occult forum, not a play school.

RoseRed wrote: Being given an order to contact a mod? I think most of us here have a problem with being treated like kindergartener's being called to the principals office over the loudspeaker. If a mod has something to say - it's standard nettiquette to post on the thread if necessary and send the member in question a pm. I, and almnost everyone I've spioken to in pm or email agrees that it is a degrading practice and it really pisses people off.

You would prefer a moderator to tell you that you're being a troll in public, or that your comments concerning someone else's paradigm were actually incorrect, and then prove to you IN PUBLIC that you don't know what you're talking about? If you insult someone, or if your comments are running close to breaking Forum Rules or Terms and Conditions, then dealing with the issue over PM allows things to get resolved without them getting heated. A comment will get made on the thread as to the outcome, but will be done by the staff. This comment will be arrived at through mutual discussion between the forum member and the staff. Having good threads devolve into flame wars doesn't help anyone. You aren't being treated like kids, you're being treated like adults. I've never worked in a job where the team leaders have arguments with the team in public - it's always done in private. Likewise, all the forums I've been a part of where moderators wade in to sort out arguments end with someone getting butt-hurt or getting banned.

RoseRed wrote: Which brings us to another question. Are you, CG, personally capable of building personal relationships with members and able to retain the ability to mod without that personal emotion getting in the way?

Yes. I will ALWAYS be open and honest, and formal decisions regarding members of the forum will ALWAYS be discussed with other staff first. All I'm asking is that people follow the Forum Rules and Terms and Conditions so that we can have a constructive and open forum. Like I've said previously, if you think a Forum Rule is wrong then start a thread on the Site discussion board and we will look into changing it. Terms and Conditions on the other hand are legally binding, and cannot be changed. Can I have a personal relationship here on the forum? Sure, I don't see why not, so long as people don't think it's anything personal if I have to warn them for their behaviour here. I want to be friends with as many people here as possible - the best managers are the ones who care about their staff, but I am also an administrator and my role here is to ensure that the forum continues to run smoothly. I can wear two hats. The question really is can a forum member be friends with someone who may have to publicly call them out if they do something that breaks the rules?

RoseRed wrote: You asked for questions and honest discussion. This is what people are talking about behind the scenes - and I'm not the only one informing you that the background discussion is going in these directions.

Thank you for being open and honest, I really appreciate it. I would prefer that people would contact me direct if they're going to accuse another forum member of something though, because it makes the problem much easier to resolve. I know I've said to question moderation on this thread, but I didn't mean to try to start an argument about past hurts.

RoseRed wrote: You really need to stop asking what you've done wrong. You've been great. No one's really talking about what's gone on since you got here.

That's good. A lot of people take my politeness and willingness to apologise for things as a sign of weakness. Sadly, that's a reflection of the modern world we live in. In my job I have to apologise to people for things that I didn't do in order to diffuse the situation - nothing takes the wind out of an angry customers sails than simply saying 'I'm sorry, I apologise on behalf of the company for the problems you're having, now what can we do to make it right?'

RoseRed wrote: And for the record, no one needs to worry about my behavior, my 'cult of personality' or trying to take over the forum. If there's ever a reason that I need to defend myself publicly again because of the actions taken by staff - I won't be returning. It's that simple.

You're leaving the forum? That's a pity.

RoseRed wrote: So, my last question is - can we really have an honest discussion about what's really going on instead of talking in circles and tiptoeing around it?

I didn't think we were 'talking in circles and tiptoeing around it', I think you're simply reading your own experiences into my generalisations.

RoseRed wrote: Or is that not allowed under the rules and we're required to follow the gag order that's in place?

There is no 'gag order', and the rules allow for discussion, just not trolling, flaming, thread hijacking, and starting threads for the sole purpose of causing an argument. Which brings me to the very sad part of this post. You were reported for your comments by another forum member, as it was seen to be in breach of the following Forum Rules, namely:

2: If you wish to discuss something in regards to the way the forum is being run, please send a staff member a PM. DO NOT just post your comments on the forum itself. We are interested in your input, but trying to start a discussion with the staff on the forum boards themselves is not the correct way to do this. If your comments are simply in regards to something you would like to see here, please use the Wish List board.

You failed to do this - you openly attacked moderation in your post, both past and present. Your post would have been acceptable on this thread had you not made it personal, because personal attacks on moderation in public break this rule:

5: Vashta, as primary Administrator, can access all other staff members actions on the forum and meticulously checks the logs when any accusations are levelled against any staff member. Always. If you feel that you have been unfairly treated, or that posts made by staff members have violated the forums rules, then please contact Vashta. The staff still need to abide by the forum rules.

Which brings us to the discussion of reported threads or posts that have received a formal ruling, a process which is arrived at through discussion between members of the staff. Directly questioning a formal ruling goes against this rule:

3: Staff rulings are final. If we are alerted of an issue, we discuss that issue as a team. The resulting decision is arrived at through that discussion, it isn't simply the views of one person.

The staff have discussed these breaches of three forum rules in relation to your personal comments, bringing up past grievances in public, and anti-social behaviour and a decision had been made to issue you with a warning. This decision is final. If you continue to argue about this decision, or any of the other formal rulings in the threads you mentioned, then you will receive a seven day ban, or a further warning.

This post was reported. Let me explain what Nahemah was trying to do here - she was explaining the Forum Rules and Terms and Conditions. Please allow me to clarify:

Nahemah wrote:Without engaging in any further flaming, this may be a pertinent time to remind you, Rosered, that all moderation adjudications made about you were done so with the full knowledge, participation and agreement of Vashta, the site owner and primary administrator'

Forum Rule 3: Staff rulings are final. If we are alerted of an issue, we discuss that issue as a team. The resulting decision is arrived at through that discussion, it isn't simply the views of one person.

Nahemah wrote: You are beating a dead horse and you know you are. Adjudication against you at the time, was final, dealt with by all staff and agreed upon and is now over.

Forum Rule 3: Staff rulings are final. If we are alerted of an issue, we discuss that issue as a team. The resulting decision is arrived at through that discussion, it isn't simply the views of one person.

Nahemah wrote: By continuing in this vein you have already breached forum rules once more and you are fully aware of doing so.

Forum Rule 2: If you wish to discuss something in regards to the way the forum is being run, please send a staff member a PM. DO NOT just post your comments on the forum itself. We are interested in your input, but trying to start a discussion with the staff on the forum boards themselves is not the correct way to do this. If your comments are simply in regards to something you would like to see here, please use the Wish List board.

and,

3: Staff rulings are final. If we are alerted of an issue, we discuss that issue as a team. The resulting decision is arrived at through that discussion, it isn't simply the views of one person.

and, in relation to Nahemah's role as a moderator,

Forum Rule 5: Vashta, as primary Administrator, can access all other staff members actions on the forum and meticulously checks the logs when any accusations are levelled against any staff member. Always. If you feel that you have been unfairly treated, or that posts made by staff members have violated the forums rules, then please contact Vashta. The staff still need to abide by the forum rules.

Nahemah wrote: You are not questioning my judgement alone, you are claiming Vashta's forum policies and rules are unfair and that I have a personal agenda against you. This is not the case at all, I have no time for such behaviour, never mind the inclination for it and I too have very serious family and personal affairs which must be attended to, hence my stepping away from the very involved role of administrator, for the time being, at least.

Pretty much all the Forum Rules and Terms and Conditions, all of which were agreed upon by Vashta, who owns the forum.

Nahemah wrote: You and perhaps others, should also be aware that the status of benefactor means that I still have moderation rights and accesses. You have attacked a staff member on the open forum once more, but I do posit, in fairness, that you did so in the mistaken belief that I was fully absent from the site.

Forum Rules 2, 3, and 4, namely:

2: If you wish to discuss something in regards to the way the forum is being run, please send a staff member a PM. DO NOT just post your comments on the forum itself. We are interested in your input, but trying to start a discussion with the staff on the forum boards themselves is not the correct way to do this. If your comments are simply in regards to something you would like to see here, please use the Wish List board.

3: Staff rulings are final. If we are alerted of an issue, we discuss that issue as a team. The resulting decision is arrived at through that discussion, it isn't simply the views of one person.

4: We do not alter a members posts without advising in the post that we have done so. This is only done if the post contains extremely unacceptable material, such as excessive profanity, hate speech, racism, sexism, homophobia or other anti-social behaviour. When this isn't the case, but the post still breaks forum rules, we will comment in the thread that this has occurred. Threads will be closed if they have turned into flame wars. If a thread drifts too far off topic, it will be split so that a new thread with the new topic can be created.

Nahemah wrote: Thread locking serves the purpose of stopping the flow of conversation to prevent escalation of situations where flaming is present or can escalate from, pending staff discussions and decisions in regard to the thread or those who have posted in it.

Forum Rule 4: We do not alter a members posts without advising in the post that we have done so. This is only done if the post contains extremely unacceptable material, such as excessive profanity, hate speech, racism, sexism, homophobia or other anti-social behaviour. When this isn't the case, but the post still breaks forum rules, we will comment in the thread that this has occurred. Threads will be closed if they have turned into flame wars. If a thread drifts too far off topic, it will be split so that a new thread with the new topic can be created.

Nahemah wrote: This is a non negiotable part of our policy, which has been repeatedly laid out by Clockwork_ Ghost in the last few days.

Ignorance of the rules is not a valid argument.

Forum Rule 1: Terms and conditions are viewable by clicking the 'terms and conditions' link in the bottom left side of the front page. We strongly recommend all members acquaint themselves with these terms, as all claims of ignorance will not be accepted. Where needed, staff will post a link to the Terms and Conditions when breaches are made, before any warnings are issued

Nahemah wrote: I'm locking this one now, pending staff discussion, it may re open again later, but all members should make sure they are fully conversant with the rules again, before any further posts are made, if it does reopen.

The staff have discussed this thread, and a decision has been made that it stay locked so that it doesn't just turn into a flame war. I am still very interested to hear your questions, but would ask that you send them to me via PM. If you are happy for your comments to be shared, please advise so in your PM. Please also advise whether you wish your comments to be linked to you, or if you wish to remain anonymous.

A formal ruling has been made in regards to Nahemah's post, due to it being reported for a possible breach of Forum Rules and Terms and Conditions. The decision is that it wasn't a personal attack, and was intended to clarify the rules. No warning has been issued.

Thank you [thumbup]

THE FORUM RULES AND TERMS & CONDITIONS EXPLAINED

The purpose of this post is to explain why we decided upon the Forum Rules and Terms & Conditions, and to provide information on what you should do if you wish to suggest changes to them. It has been split into two separate posts, as each post is rather long.

First, the Terms and Conditions. These are legally binding - you can't change them. They were agreed upon when the forum was created between Vashta and the people who own the server. You agree to these Terms and Conditions when you create an account here. Ignorance of the Terms and Conditions isn't an acceptable argument - you actually have to have read them before you make an account.

1. Money

A. Occult Forum.org is a non-profit organisation, we will never ask you for payment or donations. Anyone who claims to be a member of the administration, and asks you for money is violating the first condition, please report this to us, as this is a bannable offence, which may entail police involvement.

No staff member can charge you for anything directly related to Occult Forum.org. This doesn't include links to third party sellers, or companies owned or run by the staff, but we cannot use our positions on Occult Forum.org to directly sell our products to you. All sales of products owned by staff members have to be conducted off-site, and we cannot solicit while on the forum. We can direct you to other places where you can buy things, but we can't ask for payment for things like membership, or any services which are directly hosted by Occult Forum.org, such as the school of magick that is currently being discussed elsewhere on the forum. We also cannot solicit for donations for the site, or for special membership benefits which would allow you access to hidden areas, if they were ever created.

B. It is forbidden to ask for money in exchange for goods, services, training etc. This server is based in the UK, where charging money for occult services can see you charged with fraud, should you fail to deliver consistent results to a court. This law is shared in many places in the world. Any person requesting any form of payment or donation will be banned from the site, and reported to the authorities.

We have a board called The Bazaar where you can post links to commercial sites that you own. You can post links in threads to specific products which cost money to buy. You cannot specifically advertise products and services that cost money in a post on the forum, nor can you offer to do something for money on the forum, like remove a curse.

2. Behaviour

A. You may not post anything which is malicious, or designed to offend. Swear words and undue profanity are discouraged, and discrimination on grounds of race, gender, age, sexuality, body weight, religious beliefs, disability, or any other quality protected by UK equality laws, is forbidden and will result in an immediate ban, and deletion of your posts.

This basically speaks for itself.

B. Your contributions should be within the scope of the discussion at hand, and and of an occult nature in general. Off-topic discussions should be kept to the off-topic areas, and we reserve the right to move or remove anything which is deemed inappropriate.

Any threads you create on any board except Off-topic and General art should be occult-related, and any post to the thread must relate to the topic being discussed.

C. No references to the personality of any person may be made, except where that person has expressly permitted it, or where that person has initiated a discussion on it, of which it is the main topic.

You cannot refer to the personality of any member unless when the member has asked for comments regarding an aspect of his or her personality - an example of this would be someone saying 'My life is a complete mess, what should I do to fix it?'.

D. You may not post anything which has been emailed to you without the express permission of the sender. You may still forward email to the forum administration, should you feel that this is appropriate.

If another forum member sends you something via email or PM you cannot then post it without their express permission. You can send it on to an administrator or moderator if you feel it breaks the Forum Rules or Terms & Conditions.

E. Any attempt to extract or export contact information from this site without the express permission of the individuals or administration, for any unauthorised external use will be deemed breech of terms of service, for which you will be banned from the site, and reported to the proper authorities where appropriate.

You cannot distribute other members contact information, such as their email addresses, without their permission, or permission from the forum staff.

F. Advertising of any goods or services is forbidden, except where expressly approved by the administration.

We have a board called The Bazaar where you can post links to commercial sites that you own. You can post links to specific products in threads which cost money to buy. You cannot specifically advertise products and services that cost money in a post on the forum, nor can you offer to do something for money on the forum, like remove a curse.

G. Any attempt to circumvent or manipulate your access rights will be met with disciplinary action, this may entail banning and/or contacting the relevant authorities where appropriate.

You cannot generate a profile which doesn't follow the standard forum process for generating a profile. You also cannot try to access any places on the forum which you haven't directly been given access to by a forum administrator.

H. All posts are subject to the terms of the Gnu Free Documentation License, although the original poster may request that their posts be retracted should they choose.

A link to the Gnu Free Documentation License is below:

GNU Free Documentation License

I. You may not create accounts using throwaway email addresses with domains such as mailinator.com

You cannot generate email addresses for the sole purpose of generating a forum profile. This is what spam-bots do.

3. Disputes

A. In the event that your username is in dispute, we will require information to verify your ownership of the username. You must send us the name of the Internet Service Provider you used at the time of membership, and the city from which you posted. If the dispute is settled in your favour, your username will be changed to the disputed username. If your username is disputed, and not settled in your favour, we may change your username to something else. This may be assigned to a temporary username until you are able to pick another for yourself.

If you try to create a profile using an existing user name, you can dispute your ownership of that name. Both members who are using that user name will then be asked to prove that they own the user name. The member who can prove ownership will be able to use the name, the other member will have their user name changed.

B. If your username is changed by an administrator because of condition 3.A, you may request a new username, which we will assign to you at the earliest possible time. This should also be sent to dispute@occultforum.org

If you have your user name changed, and you don't like the new user name, you can request a different user name instead.

C. No impersonating other users, no duplicate accounts.

You can only have one account here on the forum, even if you have been previously banned from the forum. You also cannot create a user name that is too similar to a member currently on the forum.

4. Liability

A. By participating in any discussion, or contributing content of any form, you release Occult Forum.org and all of its administration from any responsibility for your communications. You accept full responsibility for any breech of any form of intellectual property right, such as copyrights, any breech of confidentiality, any obscenity, defamatory statements, anything libellous or slanderous, anything which incites racial, religious, or sexual hatred or discrimination, and anything else which violates any law of the United Kingdom.

If you post material which breaks the rules then you are the one at fault, not the forum itself.

B. You accept all damages, losses, claims and costs (including without limitation fines and expenses arising out of or incurred in conducting or defending any proceedings) arising from your actions.

Anything you do while using the forum which causes you any damages, losses, claims or costs cannot then be passed on to the forum itself. We accept no responsibility for any damages, losses, claims or costs which you incur as a result of your actions while on the forum.

C. We, the administration of Occult Forum.org reserve the right to change the terms of service at any time.

If we need to change the Terms and Conditions at any time in order to bring the forum in line with UK law we are able to do so.

5. Privacy

A. Occult Forum.org will not share your private data (e.g. real name, email address) with any other organisation, except for purposes outlined below. Some information (Such as your username and posts) are visible to anyone who visits the forum; this is simply an aspect of how forums work, you acknowledge and accept that your posts may be displayed here, along with your username and avatar, and that this is visible publically.

We don't share your information with any other organisation, except in the way specifically described above.

B. OccultForum.org may use automated services to post summaries, or entire bodies of your posts to services such as Facebook and Twitter, by accepting these terms and conditions, you allow OccultForum.org to post links to your posts here onto these services.

We have a Facebook presence and a Twitter account. We can post threads from the forum on to social media sites.

C. OccultForum.org may use your email address to invite you to our social networking presences.

We can send you emails offering you an option to join our social networking pages.

THE FORUM RULES AND TERMS & CONDITIONS EXPLAINED

Next, the Forum Rules. These are not legally binding - you can change them. They have been agreed upon between the staff during the course of the forum's history, and represent the result of a number of formal rulings in regards to events that have happened to date. You indirectly agree to these Forum Rules when you start posting here. The Forum Rules are designed to be as non-specific as possible - they concern certain behaviour while on the forum, not specific thread material. You are welcome to bring a Forum Rule to the attention of the forum staff if you believe it doesn't work in order to make the forum a better place. If you do wish to discuss an individual Forum Rule, please start a thread concerning the Forum Rule on the Site discussion board.

1: Terms and conditions are viewable by clicking the 'terms and conditions' link in the bottom left side of the front page. We strongly recommend all members acquaint themselves with these terms, as all claims of ignorance will not be accepted. Where needed, staff will post a link to the Terms and Conditions when breaches are made, before any warnings are issued.

You cannot break the forum Terms and Conditions - they are legally binding.

2: If you wish to discuss something in regards to the way the forum is being run, please send a staff member a PM. DO NOT just post your comments on the forum itself. We are interested in your input, but trying to start a discussion with the staff on the forum boards themselves is not the correct way to do this. If your comments are simply in regards to something you would like to see here, please use the Wish List board.

If you want to discuss something concerning how the forum is being run, send a PM message to a staff member.

3: Staff rulings are final. If we are alerted of an issue, we discuss that issue as a team. The resulting decision is arrived at through that discussion, it isn't simply the views of one person.

If a staff member makes a formal ruling, that formal ruling is final.

4: We do not alter a members posts without advising in the post that we have done so. This is only done if the post contains extremely unacceptable material, such as excessive profanity, hate speech, racism, sexism, homophobia or other anti-social behaviour. When this isn't the case, but the post still breaks forum rules, we will comment in the thread that this has occurred. Threads will be closed if they have turned into flame wars. If a thread drifts too far off topic, it will be split so that a new thread with the new topic can be created.

We don't change any element of a thread or the posts within it without advising that we have done so. This is only done if posts within the thread meet the criteria above. Threads can also be moved to other boards if they do not fit on the board they were created upon.

5: Vashta, as primary Administrator, can access all other staff members actions on the forum and meticulously checks the logs when any accusations are levelled against any staff member. Always. If you feel that you have been unfairly treated, or that posts made by staff members have violated the forums rules, then please contact Vashta. The staff still need to abide by the forum rules.

If you feel that you have been treated unfairly by a staff member, contact Vashta.

6: If you are asked by a staff member to respond to a question by PM, and instead choose to make the conversation public, then you will considered to be in breach of Rule 2.

This rule speaks for itself.

7: We hold certain baseline standards regarding discussion and commentary on this forum. These terms are non negotiable, and breaches will be taken into consideration and acted upon in accordance with Rule 3. As this is an occult-based forum, reference to certain practices such as ritual sacrifice, cultural adherence to things which may seem extreme to others, and other material that contains societal taboos is acceptable to a degree. If you reference such material, make sure your reference is relevant to the discussion, and that you make it clear that your reference is just that, and not a suggestion that the OP act on it. Referencing illegal material is not acceptable, nor is referencing material prohibited by Rule 4.

This is an occult related forum, it is for the discussion of occult related topics. We have two boards where material that isn't occult related can be posted, but the forum itself is for conversations of an occult nature.

Another question from a forum member that I would like to answer, as I believe it may also be interesting to others.

Deathquota wrote:I was wondering about the nature of the rules on this forum, and perhaps partake in the conversation about the forum's rules.

The team leader steps in. He asks James to speak to him in private about his comments. James tells him to go fuck himself, and says that he is a filthy communist. Should the team leader just respond in public? Of course not. Even if James just said he wasn't willing to discuss the matter in private it still needs to be dealt with, or James will soon believe that he can say whatever he wants.

This thread we are posting on is a perfect place to discuss issues concerning forum moderation. Simply starting an argument about moderation on a thread destroys the thread. Discussing moderation in private, and expressing your concerns over something you believe to be unnecessary can lead to positive changes. Arguing in public rarely does.

You make a valid point here. However, even you yourself in great consideration for other people state the reason for editing a post / banning it. I commend you for that. I think people here are expecting public discussion for instances in which they feel faulted personally. The rules are made very clear from the start indeed, and I'm not question their contextual legitimacy. All it takes is one personal slam in order to ruin the public, open conversation in the forum. If you need another example of someone personally feeling injured besides RoseRed, here you go:

Hansel & Gretel movie - Well, this'll piss you off

I am not trying to criticize moderation but emphasize the difference in how people perceive, and relate to each other. I am not trying to "justify" anything. People will come here whose actions seem naive to older, experienced members. It will become obnoxious to deal with newer, eccentric personalities. But not allowing them to find their own way to mesh with the community is a dangerous and limiting ethic in my opinion. People's perspectives can be discussed on the forum. The fine line is when is it that we stop slamming on their opinions, but start slamming on their identity. This confusion NEEDS to be addressed. I do not believe this is a well-defined line. When is one able to notice when one's personality doesn't mesh with the community? How much of the community does one have to be alienated by before their personality or self expression becomes disruptive?

This forum has potentially over 8,500 active members at any one time. The actual figure is obviously much lower, and when I work out how to get the figure I will post it, but over 8,500 people have the ability to log on tomorrow and post on the forum. As with all communities, certain people will clash with one another. I'm not above this - There have been many people I have clashed with over the years of being an active member on several internet forums, I recently left another forum just for that reason. The fact remains that a forum is a community, just like a workplace. Just as in the workplace, open hostility is never productive, and must be dealt with in some way. People are welcome to find their way, and to mesh with others who they feel a connection to - this is what you do at work when you start a new job. You will also come across people who are just not your 'cup of tea', but it's how you deal with these people that matters.

The Forum Rules are meant to be a guide to social behaviour - this is why they are written in generalities, and not specific to certain posts or topics. They are designed to stop anti-social activity and ad hominem arguments. While it is perfectly okay to argue your point here on the forum, you cannot start using abusive name calling, hate speech, or discrimination in an attempt to get your point across. There are ways to deal with anti-social behaviour - if you were at work and a co-worker called you a bitch, and you didn't feel confident confronting them in private about it, you would tell your team leader and ask them to deal with it. Your team leader would then probably get you both together in private and work out a way to resolve the issue, or would simply deal with the abusive team member direct.

As to older members having to deal with new members, this is simply a fact of life on a public forum. A lot of people will find a forum they enjoy, and will spend years posting on it, and it will become home. New people will come and go, and you won’t get on with all of them. Their being there isn't a threat, and even people who start life on a forum looking like complete idiots may become constructive members in time - it all depends on whether they come to realise that they actually know much less than they claim to know, or they will end up breaking Form Rules or Terms & Conditions and get managed off of the forum. I'll use an example from my own time on internet forums, as I like analogies. I used to be on another massive occult forum - this forum attracted a lot of people very new to the occult. One member joined who had a Latin name that meant something completely different to what he thought it meant. Having studied Latin, I politely corrected him about what his name meant. He then claimed that he spoke Latin fluently, and changed his name to something completely meaningless by simply substituting Latin words. His claims to speak Latin, and then his complete inability to do so, singled him out a fair bit. He then made a few more bizarre claims that he couldn’t support, and left. Everyone was really polite to him - he actually started a discussion regarding Old English and the use of the word Thou, but his desire to be seen as being an expert in a topic on a forum that actually had real subject matter experts on it could well have suggested that he would have eventually resorted to emotional ad hominem outbursts, and other anti-social behaviour. He may well have developed into a model member of the community, I am not one to judge.

So, to answer your question - the community ultimately decides when a new forum member has become a destructive anti-social threat. You do this through being polite, and offering answers to their questions, or clarification of their statements, that shows them that they might not fully understand the material they want to discuss. Politeness is the key word here - simply telling someone that they are an idiot is itself anti-social. If the new member sees that they are wrong, they will react in one of three ways - they will either start to really learn their paradigm, they will get aggressive and try to defend themselves, or they will stop posting or leave. New members who start to learn material usually become very constructive members of the forum, abusive members get dealt with through other members reporting their posts, and members who just decide to read the forum or leave do so of their own free will.

The conversation you referenced between Occultess, Rin, entropic, TheSeeker, Serenitydawn, Nahemah, Penelope, Jack-o-diamonds, msrb999, RoseRed, Frater_NT,Azkhet, and Ramscha was started as a statement designed to solicit a certain response. It turned into a discussion about the subject matter, which was fine. An old disruptive member who no longer has an account here then decided to attack Occultess. Instead of reporting the post as abuse, Occultess decided to respond in kind using very passive-aggressive language. Nahemah tried to stop the argument, but a few members decided to take sides instead. RoseRed tried to become the voice of reason, and to draw the conversation back to the topic, but by this stage it had become too big an argument and everyone just ignored her. A little bit of random paradigm bashing went on, the thread wandered drastically off topic, RoseRed and Nahemah tried to drag it back, and then Ramscha sort of killed it by addressing the reason why the thread was even began in the first place. What did this thread ultimately achieve? Nothing. Occultess wanted people to rally against the movie, but instead there was a brief discussion over the subject matter, a fight, some ad hominem bashing, and a futile attempt to resurrect the topic at hand. This could have all been avoided if Occultess simply hadn't decided to try to use the post to push a one sided argument, other people had ignored her or kept to the topic and not just attacked her over it, or someone had reported the abuse to Nahemah or Vashta to deal with.

Deathquota wrote:

Next, the Forum Rules. These are not legally binding - you can change them. They have been agreed upon between the staff during the course of the forum's history, and represent the result of a number of formal rulings in regards to events that have happened to date. You indirectly agree to these Forum Rules when you start posting here. The Forum Rules are designed to be as non-specific as possible - they concern certain behaviour while on the forum, not specific thread material. You are welcome to bring a Forum Rule to the attention of the forum staff if you believe it doesn't work to make the forum a better place. If you do wish to discuss an individual Forum Rule, please start a thread concerning the Forum Rule on the Site discussion board.

I really love this place. I'm not offering some legalistic-styled reasoning process but just some more perspective hopefully.
After all, politics are hell, and I'm an occultist. Feel free to post this message in whatever thread.

I stand behind what I said about Forum Rules being debatable. If you wish to discuss a rule, please post a thread regarding it on the Site discussion board, just in the same way we are currently discussing the concept of a school on the forum. We will all debate it and a decision will be made. Please remember though that ALL Forum Rules are considered binding until they are changed - you can't break Forum Rules if you want to discuss Forum Rules. If the rule is changed, then the forum will change as a result. Remember however that Terms & Conditions are rigid, and cannot be changed.

Thank you for your question, and for taking the time to read my reply. [thumbup]

I was recently asked what right I have to change this forum so much, whether I was simply creating my own cult, if I think I'm a policeman or something, and if I was happy that everyone hates me now. Lets break this question down into four parts,

What right do I have to change this forum

If you look closely, I'm not changing anything at all - I am simply cleaning the place up and moving all the important bits into places where they can be seen easier. None of the rules are new rules, they are decisions made by forum staff on threads which are scattered across the forum. The major change I have made, the Occult Forum.org School of Magick, was discussed at length in two separate threads. If it fails, then we lose nothing. If it succeeds, then that would be fantastic. I have been here on the forum now for almost four years. I was nominated by Vashta to become a Benefactor, then made a Global Moderator in order to help Nahemah run the forum, then an Administrator when Nahemah stepped down. If you have a problem with my role as a member of staff, please contact Vashta. I REALLY love this forum - I spend HOURS online, cleaning things and making sure that everything is running smoothly. I love talking to every forum member, and try to be open and honest at all time. If you believe that I am damaging the place, then talk to Vashta about it. If he no longer supports me as an administrator, then I will step down.

Am I simply creating my own cult

No. I remember how hard it was for me when I first started out trying to learn about magick. All I am trying to do is make life easier for people starting their journey, and providing a place for more seasoned occultists to come to that doesn't just devolve into pointless arguments, thread hijacking, or displays of overt stupidity. Forums die through anti-social behaviour, just like any community. All I want to do is help others, I do not want to become something for others to aspire to.

Do I think I'm a policeman or something

No, I don't. My sister used to be in the police, and it destroyed her. I believe that the Forum Rules and Terms & Conditions are a guideline against anti-social behaviour. Every ruling that the staff has made, I have tried to provide detailed information as to how it was arrived at. This is your forum as much as mine, all I am doing is trying to make sure it remains an excellent place to visit. I am not trying to be a dictator, but am very aware that other people may see me trying to keep the peace an example of dictatorship. Remember, all formal decisions made on the forum are arrived at through group discussion.

Am I happy that everyone hates me now

I would hope that they didn't, and that people would see what I am doing as trying to help, not hinder. In the mundane world, I work in a job where people abuse me all day long. I understand that this abuse isn't personal, it is simply angry people trying to get an answer to their complex questions, rallying against an perceivably faceless organisation. Does it hurt to have people tell you that you are a fuckhead loser, and have strangers tell you that they wished you were dead? Of course it does, but you have to take their statements in context.

I am not doing this for praise, I am doing this because I care what happens to this place. I am sorry if this comes across any other way.

A quick question and answer concerning the Occult Forum.org School of Magick.

If you don't have time to participate in every lesson, will you be expelled? I have a busy life and I just don't have time to be on the forum every day.

The answer is no, you would not be expelled. We are fully aware that everyone has a life outside of the forum. The lessons that will be taught wont mysteriously disappear once completed, and if you come to the school later on in its development, or can't keep up due to other commitments, then you're welcome to use them for self-guided education. The primary purpose of the school is to assist others with their learning of magick, to provide information in such a way that it can be learnt by others, and to discuss lessons so that everyone can fully understand them. Students will only be expelled if they consistently break school rules, not for non-attendance.