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Motumbá Àse

I must admit that I thought that the spelling "Voodoo" was to reffer to the magico-spiritual practices in U.S. and that it was "ok" to use that spelling. It looks I was wrong. Maybe we should reffer to american "voodoo" (the religion) as Louisiana Vodou or New Orlean's Vodou. Surely that feel more appropriate. Voodoo then might be used or misused as a derogatory term for african black magic or as a "popular system" for non.initiates or not religeous practitioners.

I share these two articles and a Harvard publcation, seems pretty good, a look from a political, historical and social point of view, to help us understand more what is about this religion.

I hope you enjoy this, I know it's not a "practical thing" (hence I share it here and not in the forum for "magicks"), but I'm a believer that in ADR and ATR you need to be initiated to properly work, or at least be "devoted" and do proper offerings (like the one I shared about Iya Osun). Aleyos, Kosi-kosi or non initiate may make petitions to spirits, even some spells, I do respect that, but from a different place than an initiate.

Here goes the links:

Voodoo vs Vodou
How Vodoun became Voodoo and Vodou
Haitian Vodou and Voodoo: Imagined religion and popular culture

Please, enjoy!!!

Saravá
Idansinají

Most of that sounds like social justice warriors trying to be politicly correct.

It's a word coming from a language that has no written source. It sounds like vodo. if you spell it voodoo, vodou, voudou, Vaudou, vodoun, or anything else you are still referring to the same thing.
The closest spelling to the original fon word is vodṹ or ˈvoʊ.duː/

Maybe, but if you read the articles you might see that sadly goes beyond just the spelling, it's about how it's socialy perceived, which is important too. Certain things, if not ALL, need to be treated with respect, specially when it's about race, culture and spirituality.

This is just a topic to discuss how we approach Vodou and its practices. You want to call it Voodoo, that's fine, but how you do it or what connotation are you giving to it, that's the important thing.

WillowDarkWytch wrote:Maybe, but if you read the articles you might see that sadly goes beyond just the spelling, it's about how it's socialy perceived, which is important too. Certain things, if not ALL, need to be treated with respect, specially when it's about race, culture and spirituality.

This is just a topic to discuss how we approach Vodou and its practices. You want to call it Voodoo, that's fine, but how you do it or what connotation are you giving to it, that's the important thing.

It's a pretty weak argument. So what if people view it differently?
Let them. Changing the spelling isn't going to change anything.

It's not just about the spelling. It's about respect. It's about what's true vodou and what people think it is thanks to Hollywood, misconceptions and preconceptions.

You seem to have "something" about Vodou and ADR. In the topic of Hoodoo I posted you seem to talk about Hoodoo and Voodoo as they were the same, and also you question the legitimacy of Vodou as a religion brought by slaves, and you question without any other strong foundation. You just question it as it was because you just don't like it because for you it's "a trend". That's what I'm talking about, about the "trend", about how people is so astray about ADR.

Even when we do practice "magic" it's not a magical system. It's a religion, it's a cult, it's a spiritual path.

Saravá, Des, I hope you may explain why your comments towards "Voodoo" sound with a little animosity. Is it because of what's become (the magical trend) or is it because you just don't like it?

(To leave it clear, this is my perception about your comments, not just here, but in the other topic as well)

WillowDarkWytch wrote:It's not just about the spelling. It's about respect. It's about what's true vodou and what people think it is thanks to Hollywood, misconceptions and preconceptions.

I still don't buy that argument. How is it respectful to latch onto one particular spelling when all of them are wrong anyway? If people didn't like me, would it be more respectful for you to start calling me dedecrated? Should we change the spelling on somebodies name just because we like them?

You seem to have "something" about Vodou and ADR. In the topic of Hoodoo I posted you seem to talk about Hoodoo and Voodoo as they were the same

That is a good argument.
I tend to use the word voodoo for all of the american traditions. It makes it easier (for me). I'll try and be more precise in the future.

and also you question the legitimacy of Vodou as a religion brought by slaves, and you question without any other strong foundation.

I question everything. I don't trust oral traditions. If you want me to believe in something you need historical records, archeological evidence and preferable some scholarly books about the subject.
And then I will question them as well.

I should probably write an article about slaves and their religion because it's an interesting topic, but I'm still working on the voodoo book list so I'll leave that for next week.

You just question it as it was because you just don't like it because for you it's "a trend". That's what I'm talking about, about the "trend", about how people is so astray about ADR.

That is you putting words in my mouth. I don't view it as a trend.
I like voodoo, I like wicca, I even like chaos magic and that discipline is only 30 years old.

Even when we do practice "magic" it's not a magical system. It's a religion, it's a cult, it's a spiritual path.

I have no idea were you are going with that.

Saravá, Des, I hope you may explain why your comments towards "Voodoo" sound with a little animosity. Is it because of what's become (the magical trend) or is it because you just don't like it?

You and I definitely have some sort of communications problem. You seem to take everything I say more harshly than it is meant, and I tend to do the same with you. You seem very defensive and almost protective of your own opinion and it's almost like I'm offending you every time I have a different view.
But know this. Even if I agreed with you 100% on a topic. I would still question it.
That is my process. I always ask questions, and I always try to probe deeper.

Desecrated wrote:

WillowDarkWytch wrote:It's not just about the spelling. It's about respect. It's about what's true vodou and what people think it is thanks to Hollywood, misconceptions and preconceptions.

I still don't buy that argument. How is it respectful to latch onto one particular spelling when all of them are wrong anyway? If people didn't like me, would it be more respectful for you to start calling me dedecrated? Should we change the spelling on somebodies name just because we like them?

I see you don't understand where I'm going with this. You put Vodou in Google, you get a lot religion and cult related stuff, mixed with some bullshit merchandise, but you get the real, or at least more serious stuff. You put Voodoo and MOST if not all you get is merchandise bullshit, little dollies withs pins, movies and things that have nothing to do with the religion. "Voodoo" has that connotation socialy speaking. It's not about liking it, it's about how it should be treated. Even american vodou practitioners are starting to use the word Vodou as propper spelling, Vodou or Vodoun. It's a consensus.

That is a good argument.
I tend to use the word voodoo for all of the american traditions. It makes it easier (for me). I'll try and be more precise in the future.

It's good to make the difference for better comunication. Candomblé is not Vodou nor Santeria, I don't interchange the names to reffer either of them.

I question everything. I don't trust oral traditions. If you want me to believe in something you need historical records, archeological evidence and preferable some scholarly books about the subject.
And then I will question them as well.

It's ok to question, I do it too. And were fucked with oral traditions because african traditions, even in Africa are ALL oral traditions. Scandinavian magic is also oral, it's folk, you don't see me questioning it as you do question ADR, or at least as I perceive you do it (again, a thing of perception, doesn't mean is true and that is why is good that you explain you point of view). You have to dig in slavery history and then some local history and stories about it to get to glimpse a little of facts. That's how it works with african oral traditions.

I should probably write an article about slaves and their religion because it's an interesting topic, but I'm still working on the voodoo book list so I'll leave that for next week.

That would be awesome. You're pretty smart, something good will come out of it.

You just question it as it was because you just don't like it because for you it's "a trend". That's what I'm talking about, about the "trend", about how people is so astray about ADR.

That is you putting words in my mouth. I don't view it as a trend.

My bad, I meant "I think/feel You just question it as it was because you just don't like it because for you it's "a trend"". Didnt meant to say you said actualy THAT. Again, MY perception, it's not a statement of a truth. It's what I'm seeing in between lines. Maybe is the way that you express. We come from different cultures, latinamericans we are different from europeans, our temperaments are VERY different so maybe I'm getting the wrong ideas.

I like voodoo, I like wicca, I even like chaos magic and that discipline is only 30 years old.

Me too

Even when we do practice "magic" it's not a magical system. It's a religion, it's a cult, it's a spiritual path.

I have no idea were you are going with that.

I'm talking about people seeing it as a trend, as a "Voodoo candle spell", that doesn't exist. Either it's Vodou or it's not, it's something that looks "Voodoo-ish", uses veves, colors and stuff related to Vodou Lwas and do "their magics". It's ok, I don't share it, it works for them? Fine, good for them. I didn't say that because of you, to leave it clear. It was continuing the subject about the "trend" thing.

Saravá, Des, I hope you may explain why your comments towards "Voodoo" sound with a little animosity. Is it because of what's become (the magical trend) or is it because you just don't like it?

You and I definitely have some sort of communications problem. You seem to take everything I say more harshly than it is meant, and I tend to do the same with you. You seem very defensive and almost protective of your own opinion and it's almost like I'm offending you every time I have a different view.

Yes, we tend to have a sort of glitch in our communication. I do feel that sometimes you are kind of harsh, but not always. I feel I kind of learn to "read you" when you post. I think "He's like that". I do have a "harsh" tone, even in person, I'm of those kind of people that says things very sweet, but if I have to repeat it I sound kind sharp and dry. Actualy I'm way less "heavy" in written that I'm in person, but also in person I way more joker too. In written I guess I'm more "formal" in a way. But I'm not mad nor anything. I do "defend" my opinion, I'm a good debater in person, I love dabates but "very defensive" it's an exageration. I defend my posture because I got there through work, study, practice, falling, getting up... Experience. And the only things I protect are those knowledges that come through experience. I don't give away what I know, I just talk about the things that may be found anywhere, but that's all.

But know this. Even if I agreed with you 100% on a topic. I would still question it.
That is my process. I always ask questions, and I always try to probe deeper.

And that's ok. I do question my elders, I'm a pain in the ass. I'm an occultist and hermeticist, that's my formation, so when I entered this religious world full of rules for the "newborns" and ofcourse I come with the "why this" "why that" and most times they HATE it.

Let's not make this about us and our communication either, I thought you already new how "I am" or communicate. Maybe there are things we still need to know about each other (as forum participants) but I think we are in a good road to that.

Now, moving on, I thought there were more ADR or ATR practitioner, at least dabblers or people interested but I see they're maybe too busy or they don't want to participate. That's a bummer

Saravá
Idansinají

I see you don't understand where I'm going with this. You put Vodou in Google, you get a lot religion and cult related stuff, mixed with some bullshit merchandise, but you get the real, or at least more serious stuff. You put Voodoo and MOST if not all you get is merchandise bullshit, little dollies withs pins, movies and things that have nothing to do with the religion. "Voodoo" has that connotation socialy speaking. It's not about liking it, it's about how it should be treated. Even american vodou practitioners are starting to use the word Vodou as propper spelling, Vodou or Vodoun. It's a consensus.

That is a fair argument. Unfortunately the articles did not make that point.

It's ok to question, I do it too. And were fucked with oral traditions because african traditions, even in Africa are ALL oral traditions. Scandinavian magic is also oral, it's folk, you don't see me questioning it as you do question ADR, or at least as I perceive you do it (again, a thing of perception, doesn't mean is true and that is why is good that you explain you point of view). You have to dig in slavery history and then some local history and stories about it to get to glimpse a little of facts. That's how it works with african oral traditions.

There are elements of oral tradition in Scandinavian magic. But we do have historical texts dating back to 1483, we have 11000 years of archeological evidence and scholarly works reaching back to the 1880's. BUT it should be questioned. And even if it turns out that the material is 100% correct; Then I should be questioned. Because there is no chance in hell I'm going to get it correct all the time. It doesn't mater how much experience I gather. If I'm wrong about something, call me out on it.
If you have a different opinion then me, call me out on it. If you're bored and just want to debate, call me out on that too.

ADR should be questioned. Otherwise it will just turn into wicca for black people.

I'm talking about people seeing it as a trend, as a "Voodoo candle spell", that doesn't exist. Either it's Vodou or it's not, it's something that looks "Voodoo-ish", uses veves, colors and stuff related to Vodou Lwas and do "their magics". It's ok, I don't share it, it works for them? Fine, good for them. I didn't say that because of you, to leave it clear. It was continuing the subject about the "trend" thing.

I actually like that kind of smorgasbord picking from different traditions. I see no problem in taking a hoodoo recipe, remove all concept of religion from it and just use it as a tool. If I find something that works for me, I'll steal it.

But that is a point were we can agree to disagree. You see it one way, I see it differently.

Ok. You really don't understand a thing that I said. Looks like you're just prepared to a fast and "smart" answer. I'm not saying this to offend you in any way, I'd really like you to read what I write, because when I read your replies, in some of them, I don't see response to what I said, is like your replying to something YOU believe I said.

Desecrated wrote:

I see you don't understand where I'm going with this. You put Vodou in Google, you get a lot religion and cult related stuff, mixed with some bullshit merchandise, but you get the real, or at least more serious stuff. You put Voodoo and MOST if not all you get is merchandise bullshit, little dollies withs pins, movies and things that have nothing to do with the religion. "Voodoo" has that connotation socialy speaking. It's not about liking it, it's about how it should be treated. Even american vodou practitioners are starting to use the word Vodou as propper spelling, Vodou or Vodoun. It's a consensus.

That is a fair argument. Unfortunately the articles did not make that point.

The first one talks about the wrong concept people has, ADN the author at the end says he doesn't think that's wrong, he doesn't agree
The second one talks about basicaly the same that I point out, the misconception and lack of respect
The publication is about the misconceptions caused by media, and it's social repercution, the prejudices, etc.

There are elements of oral tradition in Scandinavian magic. But we do have historical texts dating back to 1483, we have 11000 years of archeological evidence and scholarly works reaching back to the 1880's. BUT it should be questioned. And even if it turns out that the material is 100% correct; Then I should be questioned. Because there is no chance in hell I'm going to get it correct all the time. It doesn't mater how much experience I gather. If I'm wrong about something, call me out on it.
If you have a different opinion then me, call me out on it. If you're bored and just want to debate, call me out on that too.

African religion HAS evidence, anthropological, sociocultural and all, is just you don't know it because it hasn't been of your interest yet.

ADR should be questioned. Otherwise it will just turn into wicca for black people.

I never said "do not question", I said that I feel that you question without any strong argument or foundation.

I'm talking about people seeing it as a trend, as a "Voodoo candle spell", that doesn't exist. Either it's Vodou or it's not, it's something that looks "Voodoo-ish", uses veves, colors and stuff related to Vodou Lwas and do "their magics". It's ok, I don't share it, it works for them? Fine, good for them. I didn't say that because of you, to leave it clear. It was continuing the subject about the "trend" thing.

I actually like that kind of smorgasbord picking from different traditions. I see no problem in taking a hoodoo recipe, remove all concept of religion from it and just use it as a tool. If I find something that works for me, I'll steal it.

See? I'm not saying it's wrong, it doesn't work or anything like that, I'm saying that's not Vodou, is "voodoo-ish" magic. It has the colors but not the contents

But that is a point were we can agree to disagree. You see it one way, I see it differently.

Really? I think, as I said, you are not "reading" what I write, I think you reply to what you think I'm writing. I do believe that we are more alike than different, and that if we had a conversation face to face, we would agree more. (I'm not trying to say you have comprehention problems, I'm saying you are somewhat "predisposed" towards me, and you're not always like that, just certain ocations)

The first one talks about the wrong concept people has, ADN the author at the end says he doesn't think that's wrong, he doesn't agree
The second one talks about basicaly the same that I point out, the misconception and lack of respect
The publication is about the misconceptions caused by media, and it's social repercution, the prejudices, etc.

The argument in the articles is "Media is bad, we should change the name."
The new argument you did that actually made some sense was, people think media is bad and has changed the name, so if you want to do some research you'll get more serious reults using vodou as a spelling.

And I still don't buy the lack of respect thing. It doesn't work, it's a bad argument.

African religion HAS evidence, anthropological, sociocultural and all, is just you don't know it because it hasn't been of your interest yet.

African yes. African derived, not so much.
And you're on a slippery slope here, because you have no idea how much or how long I've been interested in this. I actually went to africa back in the early 90's.

This is the danger of being extremely defensive. You think that your research and experience has landed you on the truth, and since I don't share your opinion, I must be wrong. I might know something you don't.

I never said "do not question", I said that I feel that you question without any strong argument or foundation.

Well, that can be remedied. I can start adding some links to back up my claims.

See? I'm not saying it's wrong, it doesn't work or anything like that, I'm saying that's not Vodou, is "voodoo-ish" magic. It has the colors but not the contents

And I think it's vodou-ish magic. If you insist in calling it that.

Really? I think, as I said, you are not "reading" what I write, I think you reply to what you think I'm writing. I do believe that we are more alike than different, and that if we had a conversation face to face, we would agree more. (I'm not trying to say you have comprehention problems, I'm saying you are somewhat "predisposed" towards me, and you're not always like that, just certain ocations)

You wrote. " "magic" it's not a magical system. It's a religion, it's a cult, it's a spiritual path."
"Either it's Vodou or it's not,"

So yeah, maybe I reading in some opinion when you write things like "It's ok, I don't share it, it works for them? Fine, good for them."

And to that I reply: I see no problem in taking a hoodoo recipe, remove all concept of religion from it and just use it as a tool.

Because I assumed that you might have some issue with that.

Desecrated wrote:African yes. African derived, not so much.
And you're on a slippery slope here, because you have no idea how much or how long I've been interested in this. I actually went to africa back in the early 90's.

This is the danger of being extremely defensive. You think that your research and experience has landed you on the truth, and since I don't share your opinion, I must be wrong. I might know something you don't.

African derived no so much??????? You talk out of nothing. I do know about cuban history of slaves and religion, and brazilian afroreligious backround too, there is PLENTY of antrhopological and historical FACTS. That YOU don't know them doesn't give you the right to talk about it like they weren't true or heavy enough to work as historical proof. I cannot speak about haitian Vodou, sadly, all I know is because of congolese culture and Vodun Cults, and for what I've read in the surface, I cannot speak for them. I KNOW that if you do look for the info you'll find it. But you rather talk without any foundation of what you just said.

You insist of me being deffensive. That's on you, really. I'm tired of trying to "prove" my point to you and that I'm not in any way "deffensive" as you say. I'm a practitioner of ADR so I KNOW what I'm talking about. My research might not be that good compared to yours, MAYBE, but my experience is ACTUALY concrete when it comes to african diaspora religions because I'm part of it, went through the initiations, I spiritually work IN THEM, so, yes, my experience and expriences ARE broader than yours, because you're not initiated, not in Vodou, nor in Ocha, Palo, Candomblé, Quimbanda.... so, what do you know for real? appart of what you might have seen in Africa, as a tourist, or have read in books? Or now you'll tell me that you went through some dahomeyian Vodun rituals?

Stop saying that i'm "extremely defensive". You are extremely stubborn. All you can do is read from an historical or anthropoligical view, do that instead of criticizing what you don't know.

And I'm now really asking you, stop trolling this topic. You want to talk about the articles, be my guest, you want to really talk about what you feel about this, the whole subject of Vodou and Media, yes please, but stop what you're doing. Now you're being really annoying and disrespectful to african culture ancestry, claiming that all what is done is an invention introduced in the 60's. If you don't know, reasearch and talk of what you've researched, because saying "african derived" your talking not just about haitian and New Orleans Vodou, you're talking about MY Candomblé too, and YES, that I find offensive because you know nothing about it.


Saravá
Idansinají

I stopped here:

...It's a word coming from a language that has no written source. It sounds like vodo. if you spell it voodoo, vodou, voudou, Vaudou, vodoun, or anything else you are still referring to the same thing.
The closest spelling to the original fon word is vodṹ or ˈvoʊ.duː/

The myth of African illiteracy is still such a dominant discourse that it seems almost impossible to dispel from so many Western white minds. This is one of the biggest problems with 'top down history' as it has been taught for so long in the West.

The Oya and Dahomey empires were incredibly well structured and politically organised, so how does one imagine this organisation lasted so long, over such widespread and vast areas of territory or indeed kept track of it's extensive taxation policies, without some form of written records?

( Fon being just one of the groups known to have participated in this language use, by the way.)

This is just a quick hit source, I'll be logging in at my Uni library later to further check and confirm some other sources.

Nsibidi, the language that made it across to Haiti:

http://www.philip-effiong.com/Nsibidi.pdf

I am resuming reading this topic now, more later.

I see you don't understand where I'm going with this. You put Vodou in Google, you get a lot religion and cult related stuff, mixed with some bullshit merchandise, but you get the real, or at least more serious stuff. You put Voodoo and MOST if not all you get is merchandise bullshit, little dollies withs pins, movies and things that have nothing to do with the religion. "Voodoo" has that connotation socialy speaking. It's not about liking it, it's about how it should be treated. Even american vodou practitioners are starting to use the word Vodou as propper spelling, Vodou or Vodoun. It's a consensus.


That is a fair argument. Unfortunately the articles did not make that point.

No, you are wrong Des, the first article "Haitian Vodou and voodoo: Imagined Religion in Popular Culture " not only makes this point, it reiterates it several times over and again and it is basically what the whole article is about: the dominant discourse of white privelege and white fear, especially regarding the nasty and untrue stereotypes and negative portrayals of Vodou and it's practitioners, particularly in film, tv and books, hence:' popular culture' being in the title. It's really clearly laid out, so did you read the same piece I did?

You insist of me being deffensive. That's on you, really. I'm tired of trying to "prove" my point to you and that I'm not in any way "deffensive" as you say. I'm a practitioner of ADR so I KNOW what I'm talking about. My research might not be that good compared to yours, MAYBE, but my experience is ACTUALY concrete when it comes to african diaspora religions because I'm part of it, went through the initiations, I spiritually work IN THEM, so, yes, my experience and expriences ARE broader than yours, because you're not initiated, not in Vodou, nor in Ocha, Palo, Candomblé, Quimbanda.... so, what do you know for real? appart of what you might have seen in Africa, as a tourist, or have read in books? Or now you'll tell me that you went through some dahomeyian Vodun rituals?

Stop saying that i'm "extremely defensive". You are extremely stubborn. All you can do is read from an historical or anthropoligical view, do that instead of criticizing what you don't know.

Lived experience, something no Anthropologist can buy, no matter how priveleged they are or how wealthy.

Willow does not need me to step up for her, as she is very capable of defending herself, however, she shouldn't have to defend herself to this degree and certainly not on this subject. This needs to stop.

@Desecrated, you should know better than to pull the 'appeal to authority figures' fallacy. Your research is flawed and you either didn't properly read at least one of the articles provided, or you've misunderstood it's thrust.

WillowDarkWytch wrote:
African derived no so much??????? You talk out of nothing. I do know about cuban history of slaves and religion, and brazilian afroreligious backround too, there is PLENTY of antrhopological and historical FACTS.

I thought you were talking about Quimbanda. And the archeological evidence for that is "not so much".
The comparison was african religions VS african derived. And 2.7 million years of archelogical evidence in africa compared to a religion that is barely 100 years old.

But look at how angry you get when I mention evidence.

That YOU don't know them doesn't give you the right to talk about it like they weren't true or heavy enough to work as historical proof. I cannot speak about haitian Vodou, sadly, all I know is because of congolese culture and Vodun Cults, and for what I've read in the surface, I cannot speak for them. I KNOW that if you do look for the info you'll find it. But you rather talk without any foundation of what you just said.

Your assuming that I don't have any foundation.

You insist of me being deffensive. That's on you, really. I'm tired of trying to "prove" my point to you and that I'm not in any way "deffensive" as you say. I'm a practitioner of ADR so I KNOW what I'm talking about. My research might not be that good compared to yours, MAYBE, but my experience is ACTUALY concrete when it comes to african diaspora religions because I'm part of it, went through the initiations, I spiritually work IN THEM, so, yes, my experience and expriences ARE broader than yours, because you're not initiated, not in Vodou, nor in Ocha, Palo, Candomblé, Quimbanda....

There is a lot of religious people that think they know the truth. If your only argument is that because you believe in it, it has to be true. Then the church of Scientology is correct when they say that black people are aliens dropped in volcanoes.

so, what do you know for real? appart of what you might have seen in Africa, as a tourist, or have read in books? Or now you'll tell me that you went through some dahomeyian Vodun rituals?

Well that is the problem. You don't know what I know. Your just making assumptions, and personal attacks because I don't have the same opinion that you do.

Stop saying that i'm "extremely defensive". You are extremely stubborn. All you can do is read from an historical or anthropoligical view, do that instead of criticizing what you don't know.

[/quote]

I'm stubborn. Your aggressive.

And I'm now really asking you, stop trolling this topic. You want to talk about the articles, be my guest, you want to really talk about what you feel about this, the whole subject of Vodou and Media, yes please, but stop what you're doing. Now you're being really annoying and disrespectful to african culture ancestry, claiming that all what is done is an invention introduced in the 60's. If you don't know, reasearch and talk of what you've researched, because saying "african derived" your talking not just about haitian and New Orleans Vodou, you're talking about MY Candomblé too, and YES, that I find offensive because you know nothing about it.

I'm not trolling. I'm voicing an opinion.

Nahemah wrote:

I see you don't understand where I'm going with this. You put Vodou in Google, you get a lot religion and cult related stuff, mixed with some bullshit merchandise, but you get the real, or at least more serious stuff. You put Voodoo and MOST if not all you get is merchandise bullshit, little dollies withs pins, movies and things that have nothing to do with the religion. "Voodoo" has that connotation socialy speaking. It's not about liking it, it's about how it should be treated. Even american vodou practitioners are starting to use the word Vodou as propper spelling, Vodou or Vodoun. It's a consensus.


That is a fair argument. Unfortunately the articles did not make that point.

No, you are wrong Des, the first article "Haitian Vodou and voodoo: Imagined Religion in Popular Culture " not only makes this point, it reiterates it several times over and again and it is basically what the whole article is about: the dominant discourse of white privelege and white fear, especially regarding the nasty and untrue stereotypes and negative portrayals of Vodou and it's practitioners, particularly in film, tv and books, hence:' popular culture' being in the title. It's really clearly laid out, so did you read the same piece I did?

Yes I did, and I thought it was a bunch of bullshit SJW white guilt nonsense.
Which I argued for and explained in the beginning.

Nahemah wrote:
Lived experience, something no Anthropologist can buy, no matter how priveleged they are or how wealthy.

Just because you drink the kool-aid doesn't make you an expert.

Willow does not need me to step up for her, as she is very capable of defending herself, however, she shouldn't have to defend herself to this degree and certainly not on this subject. This needs to stop.

Why not? If I questioned the historical accuracy of a Wicca, would you you react the same?
I've not made any personal attacks, I've not broken any rules, I've only argued my opinion. How is that a bad thing t0 do?

@Desecrated, you should know better than to pull the 'appeal to authority figures' fallacy. Your research is flawed and you either didn't properly read at least one of the articles provided, or you've misunderstood it's thrust.

You are contradicting yourself. Either I'm not allowed to use 'appeal to authority figures', or I should only appeal to authority figures when they say something you agree with?
I read the articles provided and I disagreed with them.

I will write an article that shows that voodoo never left africa and post it next weekend. And I'll try to use material that is easily accessible on the internet so that everybody can take part of that.
That way you can attack the evidence instead of attacking me.

You were not attacked personally and the inference you've made that you were is an attempt to deflect from being queried.

I posted about your misrepresentation of the article in question, where you attacked Willow on it, saying the below :

No, you are wrong Des, the first article "Haitian Vodou and voodoo: Imagined Religion in Popular Culture " not only makes this point, it reiterates it several times over and again and it is basically what the whole article is about: the dominant discourse of white privelege and white fear, especially regarding the nasty and untrue stereotypes and negative portrayals of Vodou and it's practitioners, particularly in film, tv and books, hence:' popular culture' being in the title. It's really clearly laid out, so did you read the same piece I did?

My post was attacking what you wrote there, as it was in error, this was not an attack on you personally as you well know. You either misunderstood the article, skimmed it or didn't read it all.

Saying you think it's SJW bullshit, is indeed an opinion, but given your response on this and throughout the topic, you've shown that you have very little proofs of your argument, other than informing the reader that you know a lot, several times over, without proving any of your self assumed knowledge, where are your evidences for this rebuttal?

Where are your evidences?

And who is being defensive here?

More quotes:

Just because you drink the kool-aid doesn't make you an expert.

I beg your pardon on this, as this is not the way to provide a coherent counter argument, it is blatantly insulting and if you continue in the same vein despite being informally warned, you can expect an infraction. You are indeed breaking rules when you do this. Lived experience is highly significant, especially when the subject matter comes from an oppressed people who are ignored in the power dynamics of social discourse. Implying as you have here, that the people who have lived a situation 'drank the kool aid' is no way to conduct an argument and I believe you are aware of that.

This is not a suggestion or helpful hint, it is now a warning, officially.

Why not? If I questioned the historical accuracy of a Wicca, would you you react the same?

Absolutely, yes, if you made the same errors in research and insulted the OP similarly to here. I have no idea why you'd think Wicca is any different to any other religion or practice under discussion on this forum and it doesn't matter what the subject is, the staff here do their jobs properly, but do feel free to check back on my older posts here if you doubt the veracity of my statement.

You are contradicting yourself. Either I'm not allowed to use 'appeal to authority figures', or I should only appeal to authority figures when they say something you agree with?
I read the articles provided and I disagreed with them.

No, but nice try, I am not contradicting myself at all, you appealed to authority here, as in your own authority, as well as adding to this with your most recent 'kool aid' statement, (which is an indirect ad hominem) just because you've been on the African continent, does that make you an expert? Does that make you more knowledgable than others? If so, how so? :

African yes. African derived, not so much.
And you're on a slippery slope here, because you have no idea how much or how long I've been interested in this. I actually went to africa back in the early 90's.

Please provide further information and back your opinion on this with checkable facts, or don't post like this again.

The debate can continue if it must, but it will only do so in language that addresses issues directly, without the casual inferences and insults. This applies to all concerned and any readers who may wish to join the conversation also.

If you wish to write an article please do Desecrated, but be aware you should provide evidences that consist of more than your opinion, or an appeal to your travelling destinations in the past.

In the interim, the topic is being locked, to allow some breathing space. I will reopen it shortly, but anyone who wishes to discuss this matter further should pm me directly for now.