Original post: ChaosTech
All this True Will talk is crap. True, means just that, true. Meaning correct, truthful, right, etc. Will of course, is an action word, meaning to do.
Everything you do then is your true will, or you wouldn't have done it. If it was your false will, it never would have happened, unless of course you were possessed or something, but then that wouldn't be you would it?
As far as True Will meaning some kind of state of conciousness where every action you perform is harmonious, meaning it doesn't go against and so conflict with anything else that exists, is nonsense to say the least. Every action one does, weither considered by humans as appearing harmful or helpful, in reality has far reaching effects. So far reaching infact, they are uncalculatable.
Take for instance this scenario. A man runs out in front of traffic to save a young child playing in the middle of the street. By doing this he saves the child from being killed, and so to human eyes appears he did a "good" thing. But by running out in traffic, he caused millions of particles in the air to move very quickly in the direction he was running. These particles collided into air particles which were across the street and caused them to move as well. The eventual chain event eventually causes a windstorm which, not only disrupts the local people's daily lives, but ends up killing 20 people, 5 of which were small children like the one saved, wounding 50 others, and two cats and a cow. As unlikely as this may seem, it's actually very likely. Read about the butterfly effect. So did the man do a good thing or a bad thing?
I'm not saying one shouldn't obey common sense and not run out and save a child playing in the middle of on coming traffic, but just that what we humans perceive as directly good is anything but.
Life consists of two things. Action because of survival, and action because of procreation. Life only desires to live, multiply, then die. Everything else tacked onto this basic fact is an extra, a bonus if you will.
To exist at all is to both harm and help, conciously or not. It's common sense for humans to try to help and not harm one another, as if we all were totally selfish, we would anihilate ourselves. The fact that human beings are social, as well as sentient creatures, has lead to our survival and growth as a species. Anti social behaivor, atleast in it's negative form (selfishness), is destructive to us all on a basic material level. One doesn't need to be a mystic and have experienced the realization that all things are one, and the Infinitate is divided in order to experience itself, in order to realize this.
But what I am saying, is that the concept of a static thing like a True Will, that never does anything "wrong," meaning it never violates anothers, human or not, will in this cosmos, is illogical, to say the least.
There is a plane of existence where the negative parts of dualism are less in effect (the traditional concepts of heaven(s)), but this is a spiritual plane, and no one living is there. This is no more of a right or wrong existence though than it's opposite which is a plane of existence where the postive parts of dualism are less in effect (the traditional concepts of hell(s)). One can go to these places if you know how and are willing via astral projection, but mark my words. There is no place that exists of perfect harmony, or for that matter perfect disharmony. Such concepts are static, no moving, and so can not be. As being is doing and doing is being. You can't seperate the two. A heavenly realm may seem perfect, but it is only so, so long as it's makers and or inhabitants, make it so, by their own actions, weither that be concious or not. The same goes for any state of existance, including the hellish as well as this plane.
The concept of the True Will has been taken past it's meaning. As I said a true will is simply anything you do, as if you didn't on some form of conciousness or unconciousness, will it to be so, it wouldn't have manifested, and so been done.
The Infinate, simply desires to go, i.e, experience and or percieve. Being the conscious and so choosing entities that we are, it's up to us in every action we make, weither that be for apparent ill or good. I say apparent as we can only know what we know. We are not a quantom supercomputer and so can't calculate the far reaching effects of every action we do (although not even a quantom computer can do truely do this anyway, as in order to calculate everything, one would have to be everything), we are human beings. So do what's the apparent best thing to do in any situation, and you are as perfect (in the good sense), as you can ever be. Or do what's the apparent worst thing to do in any situation, and you will become as perfectly "bad" as you can ever be, if not outright dead, as few people will tolerate your actions, mage or not.
In my experience, I have learned to stop thinking so much about how to be perfect, and instead just living. We all ultimately choose to be either servants of destruction and death or creation and life, by our actions. Be a total servant of destruction and death and before long you will have destroyed yourself. Be a total servant of creation and life, and before long you will hang yourself as you will be so afraid to even exist as your very existance could and probably is harming something, somewhere. The former is psychopathic behaivor in it's extreme. The later is psychopathic as well, and many "martyre" types have tred this path to "righteous anihilation."
These guru types that want to "lift" everyone into a higher state of conciousness and eventually rejoin with Infinity are as disgusting as the hitler types, for lack of a better word, that want to destory us all in hellfire. The are both servants of death, not just physical death, but true spiritual death (not meaning to ritually die, as in the abyss like rites of initiations, in order to be reborn again anew as a better equipted being (aware)).
As Peter Carroll once said, "it's not that this world is heaven or hell, it's the fear that it's neither." And to quote Jesus "the kingdom of heaven is within," not without, as well as the anarchy of hell I might add. The True Will you are speaking of isn't in the past, or the future, it right here right now, as with everything, negative or positive (meaning stimuli that humans consider good or bad).
Live damn it! :lol:
Dogma, Karma: Falling Stars Collide - Group Think!
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Original post: Was I Deleted, Again?
My response is very close to yours CT.
It's a theme going into the lounge thread in the Off-Topic Forum, and into the reasonings "Why Spell Don't Work?" No Duh.
JQP
....though the heavens fall.
My response is very close to yours CT.
It's a theme going into the lounge thread in the Off-Topic Forum, and into the reasonings "Why Spell Don't Work?" No Duh.
JQP
....though the heavens fall.
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Dogma, Karma: Falling Stars Collide - Group Think!
Original post: Horus
[QUOTE=ChaosTech]
As far as True Will meaning some kind of state of conciousness where every action you perform is harmonious, meaning it doesn't go against and so conflict with anything else that exists, is nonsense to say the least. Every action one does, weither considered by humans as appearing harmful or helpful, in reality has far reaching effects. So far reaching infact, they are uncalculatable.
[/QUOTE]careful... was this not part of the work of the Taoist masters of yore (and now for that matter). Sure everyone is flowing in the great cosmic dance, but the idea was to attune oneself with it. Of course such a thing is hard to describe, particularly by one who hasn't attained it, but I think I can make an analogy. Just because you are on the dance floor shaking your arse does mean you are in tune with the beat. Of course we aren't talking about shaking our ass, we are talking about metaphysical concepts. I would not be so quick to write off everything that you don't agree with nor even try to work with as BS. If you are so sure you understand all this, I would love to read your book one day.
[QUOTE=ChaosTech]
As far as True Will meaning some kind of state of conciousness where every action you perform is harmonious, meaning it doesn't go against and so conflict with anything else that exists, is nonsense to say the least. Every action one does, weither considered by humans as appearing harmful or helpful, in reality has far reaching effects. So far reaching infact, they are uncalculatable.
[/QUOTE]careful... was this not part of the work of the Taoist masters of yore (and now for that matter). Sure everyone is flowing in the great cosmic dance, but the idea was to attune oneself with it. Of course such a thing is hard to describe, particularly by one who hasn't attained it, but I think I can make an analogy. Just because you are on the dance floor shaking your arse does mean you are in tune with the beat. Of course we aren't talking about shaking our ass, we are talking about metaphysical concepts. I would not be so quick to write off everything that you don't agree with nor even try to work with as BS. If you are so sure you understand all this, I would love to read your book one day.
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Dogma, Karma: Falling Stars Collide - Group Think!
Original post: Was I Deleted, Again?
[QUOTE=Horus]I think I can make an analogy. Just because you are on the dance floor shaking your arse does mean you are in tune with the beat. [/quote] You've never been in the mosh pit, have you? Now that's a dance to a different beat. BTW, thrashing and diving is not my style of Saturday night at the dance but I know it exists and I am aware there is a scheme to it. But I wont boot up for it.
I'll quote you again as the last word in my post. It's quite well reasoned.
[QUOTE=Horus]Of course we aren't talking about shaking our ass, we are talking about metaphysical concepts. I would not be so quick to write off everything that you don't agree with nor even try to work with as BS. If you are so sure you understand all this, I would love to read your book one day.[/QUOTE]JQP
....though the heavens fall.
[QUOTE=Horus]I think I can make an analogy. Just because you are on the dance floor shaking your arse does mean you are in tune with the beat. [/quote] You've never been in the mosh pit, have you? Now that's a dance to a different beat. BTW, thrashing and diving is not my style of Saturday night at the dance but I know it exists and I am aware there is a scheme to it. But I wont boot up for it.
I'll quote you again as the last word in my post. It's quite well reasoned.
[QUOTE=Horus]Of course we aren't talking about shaking our ass, we are talking about metaphysical concepts. I would not be so quick to write off everything that you don't agree with nor even try to work with as BS. If you are so sure you understand all this, I would love to read your book one day.[/QUOTE]JQP
....though the heavens fall.
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Original post: ChaosTech
Good point Horus. I admit I did come off sounding a wee bit arrogant there.
The point of my post, was to attempt to help people stop trying to wrap thier heads around Tao, and start dancing to the rythym of life. Sure it takes a while to learn how to get into the beat, and of course I fall just like everyone else, but if you ever want to learn how to dance you can't just sit around talking and thinking about it. The only way you learn is to get out there an try, try, and try again.
Sitting from a table across the dance hall trying to learn how to dance by watching others, will get you nowhere. Just face the fact that from your present point of view, you haven't a clue what it's like to be a dancing guru.
So maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, but probably neither, but from most of all points of view, a concept of a True Will, is pointless to even ponder. If it's "the real deal," we'll figure it out when and if we learn of it's presence. Until that time, who fricking cares? Pondering such a concept is like a child trying to ponder what it would be like to be an adult. He/she won't know till he/she is an adult, so quit trying to grow up so fast, and enjoy being a kid.
But this analogy is only useful if the fact of a True Will, like the fact of being an adult, even is true.
My main problem with the theory is that, not only does it seem downright illogical, but every bloody man and woman who has claimed such a concept is fact, has never lived up to the claim in their own personal life.
It's like Buddha, rejecting to be tempted and so believe in the god of maya (name?). He pretty much successfully did so, but even the great and mighty Sidhartha Gotama, died like any other human being, and so was still under the control of maya, weither he realized it or not.
My problem with such concepts like Heaven, True Will, Incarnate Godhood, etc, is that they are all concepts that promote escaping existing.
If the purpose of existing was to eventually not exist, then why in the hell did existence ever exist in the first place?
Even if it all ends in perfect bliss (harmony), or destruction, why are so many focused on the end of the path not the path itself (journy, i.e. existing)?
If Infinity really is infinity, there is no end of the path anyway, that is unless you choose to end your existence.
So many scoff the ego, but the ego is the vehicle of experience for the soul. I admit you need to somewhere along the path cast away the ego (self) in order to see the Infinity, both around and within (there is no difference), but this serves a purpose for existing. To cast away the ego for good, is nothing short of anhililation. The is no movement, no experience and perception (existence), in an unmoving "perfect" (harmonious) state. Inperfection allows for change and so existence itself.
This is all my opinion though. Throw it to the winds, rip it to shreads and piss on it angrily, embrase it as a thought, or accept it as gospel. It doesn't matter, as it like everything else is a lie anyway. Do what thou will. That all one can do anyway.
Good point Horus. I admit I did come off sounding a wee bit arrogant there.
The point of my post, was to attempt to help people stop trying to wrap thier heads around Tao, and start dancing to the rythym of life. Sure it takes a while to learn how to get into the beat, and of course I fall just like everyone else, but if you ever want to learn how to dance you can't just sit around talking and thinking about it. The only way you learn is to get out there an try, try, and try again.
Sitting from a table across the dance hall trying to learn how to dance by watching others, will get you nowhere. Just face the fact that from your present point of view, you haven't a clue what it's like to be a dancing guru.
So maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, but probably neither, but from most of all points of view, a concept of a True Will, is pointless to even ponder. If it's "the real deal," we'll figure it out when and if we learn of it's presence. Until that time, who fricking cares? Pondering such a concept is like a child trying to ponder what it would be like to be an adult. He/she won't know till he/she is an adult, so quit trying to grow up so fast, and enjoy being a kid.
But this analogy is only useful if the fact of a True Will, like the fact of being an adult, even is true.
My main problem with the theory is that, not only does it seem downright illogical, but every bloody man and woman who has claimed such a concept is fact, has never lived up to the claim in their own personal life.
It's like Buddha, rejecting to be tempted and so believe in the god of maya (name?). He pretty much successfully did so, but even the great and mighty Sidhartha Gotama, died like any other human being, and so was still under the control of maya, weither he realized it or not.
My problem with such concepts like Heaven, True Will, Incarnate Godhood, etc, is that they are all concepts that promote escaping existing.
If the purpose of existing was to eventually not exist, then why in the hell did existence ever exist in the first place?
Even if it all ends in perfect bliss (harmony), or destruction, why are so many focused on the end of the path not the path itself (journy, i.e. existing)?
If Infinity really is infinity, there is no end of the path anyway, that is unless you choose to end your existence.
So many scoff the ego, but the ego is the vehicle of experience for the soul. I admit you need to somewhere along the path cast away the ego (self) in order to see the Infinity, both around and within (there is no difference), but this serves a purpose for existing. To cast away the ego for good, is nothing short of anhililation. The is no movement, no experience and perception (existence), in an unmoving "perfect" (harmonious) state. Inperfection allows for change and so existence itself.
This is all my opinion though. Throw it to the winds, rip it to shreads and piss on it angrily, embrase it as a thought, or accept it as gospel. It doesn't matter, as it like everything else is a lie anyway. Do what thou will. That all one can do anyway.
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Original post: Specktackular
ChaosTech, from my understanding, the goal of many occult/mystical schools is to continue existing beyond the body.
ChaosTech, from my understanding, the goal of many occult/mystical schools is to continue existing beyond the body.
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Original post: ChaosTech
Good point as well Specktackular. But once again death is not something one can ever truely know until one is dead. Again this seems like a waste of life to me to ponder such a thing.
As a cousin of mine once told me, which I admit took me a while to fully understand:
"Living takes a lifetime, dying only takes an instant." Sage advice coming from a 17 year old Christian if you ask me.
One could always argue about the evidence of ghosts. But this is highly subjective as well. It's impossible to know for sure if you are really talking to good old granny or just an imposed hallucination from your own psyche.
There may be life after death, as silly as that sounds if you actually pay attention to the words, and though my own experiences it seems very likely. But why focus on death? You, I, and all of us here are alive in this material plane of existence. Maybe to only reason for living is to live?
But again I must say, this is all my opinion. It's worthless on it's own, and only has meaning if one gives it such. I only hope to illustrate why someone shouldn't be concerned over these concepts, where most of you are illustrating why someone should be concerned.
Good point as well Specktackular. But once again death is not something one can ever truely know until one is dead. Again this seems like a waste of life to me to ponder such a thing.
As a cousin of mine once told me, which I admit took me a while to fully understand:
"Living takes a lifetime, dying only takes an instant." Sage advice coming from a 17 year old Christian if you ask me.
One could always argue about the evidence of ghosts. But this is highly subjective as well. It's impossible to know for sure if you are really talking to good old granny or just an imposed hallucination from your own psyche.
There may be life after death, as silly as that sounds if you actually pay attention to the words, and though my own experiences it seems very likely. But why focus on death? You, I, and all of us here are alive in this material plane of existence. Maybe to only reason for living is to live?
But again I must say, this is all my opinion. It's worthless on it's own, and only has meaning if one gives it such. I only hope to illustrate why someone shouldn't be concerned over these concepts, where most of you are illustrating why someone should be concerned.
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Original post: KCh
For clarification, when I said resistance I meant 'internal' resistance. You no longer resist that Will or ignore it or are deaf and blind to it. There is no hesitation. There is no 'should I do this' or 'should I do that', it is always known. There is no stopping and asking 'why'. It is just 'done' because a True Will is also the Will of the universe.
And yet I have reason to completly disregard all my comments because I have never experienced it. This is all pure guess work and speculation. Please for the Love of Nuit do not take my word for it!
Wait a minute...did I just replace God with Nuit? Now that was...what?
For clarification, when I said resistance I meant 'internal' resistance. You no longer resist that Will or ignore it or are deaf and blind to it. There is no hesitation. There is no 'should I do this' or 'should I do that', it is always known. There is no stopping and asking 'why'. It is just 'done' because a True Will is also the Will of the universe.
And yet I have reason to completly disregard all my comments because I have never experienced it. This is all pure guess work and speculation. Please for the Love of Nuit do not take my word for it!
Wait a minute...did I just replace God with Nuit? Now that was...what?
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Original post: KCh
"ChaosTech, from my understanding, the goal of many occult/mystical schools is to continue existing beyond the body."
I thought it was the other way around...to exist 'with' this body! May I ask just what exactly gave you this impression? 'We' already do.
"ChaosTech, from my understanding, the goal of many occult/mystical schools is to continue existing beyond the body."
I thought it was the other way around...to exist 'with' this body! May I ask just what exactly gave you this impression? 'We' already do.
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Original post: Specktackular
[QUOTE=KCh]"ChaosTech, from my understanding, the goal of many occult/mystical schools is to continue existing beyond the body."
I thought it was the other way around...to exist 'with' this body! May I ask just what exactly gave you this impression? 'We' already do.[/QUOTE]
The Egyptian Book of The Dead seems to be a series of memorized formulae with which to "remember" oneself beyond death. The Secret of The Golden Flower is also about eternal life. Since the alchemy of the east is so similar to the alchemy of the west, I have come to the understanding that transcendentalism or union with the godhead is basically the same thing and ultimately concerned with the secret of life, which understood, leads to eternal existence beyond the physical life of the body. In the interim, of course, we exist WITH the body.
[QUOTE=KCh]"ChaosTech, from my understanding, the goal of many occult/mystical schools is to continue existing beyond the body."
I thought it was the other way around...to exist 'with' this body! May I ask just what exactly gave you this impression? 'We' already do.[/QUOTE]
The Egyptian Book of The Dead seems to be a series of memorized formulae with which to "remember" oneself beyond death. The Secret of The Golden Flower is also about eternal life. Since the alchemy of the east is so similar to the alchemy of the west, I have come to the understanding that transcendentalism or union with the godhead is basically the same thing and ultimately concerned with the secret of life, which understood, leads to eternal existence beyond the physical life of the body. In the interim, of course, we exist WITH the body.
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Dogma, Karma: Falling Stars Collide - Group Think!
Original post: Ludi
*mmmmmmmmmmuh!* a big kiss for you!
ChaosTech, it's so refreshing to see someone arguing against salvationism for a change!Inperfection allows for change and so existence itself.
*mmmmmmmmmmuh!* a big kiss for you!
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Original post: Froclown
It's not immortality that is the goal of thelema, although it is the goal of some people in some schools of thought.
The goal of egoloss is not to live for ever and imprint your personal mind or self into the eternal absolute. Everything is determined by a long chain of causes going way back and will continue going forawrds in time for a lont time, possibly forever.
Ego loss is not to take yourself as a single domino out of the chain and life forever. The point is to realize that your whole life and all that "you" are is just a set of say 50 dominoes in an infinte chain. Since there is no one dominoe that is "SELF" then self is an illusion. This ego self, idetifies with one dominoe or possible with those dominoes inthe chain that represent the life of your body.
Now, the enlightned man, has no ego, he realized that it's all just dominoe that fall as they Will and he isn't any one of those dominoes, he isn't even just those 50 dominoes. Their is no Self, there is only the infinte chain of falling dominoes. The falling of that chain is the True Will. To want to do other than fall, or to want to choose when you will fall, is against the True Will. It shows your ego, has plans of it's own, which only leads to dissappointments and sorrow as the True Will does not conform to the ego wishes.
It's not immortality that is the goal of thelema, although it is the goal of some people in some schools of thought.
The goal of egoloss is not to live for ever and imprint your personal mind or self into the eternal absolute. Everything is determined by a long chain of causes going way back and will continue going forawrds in time for a lont time, possibly forever.
Ego loss is not to take yourself as a single domino out of the chain and life forever. The point is to realize that your whole life and all that "you" are is just a set of say 50 dominoes in an infinte chain. Since there is no one dominoe that is "SELF" then self is an illusion. This ego self, idetifies with one dominoe or possible with those dominoes inthe chain that represent the life of your body.
Now, the enlightned man, has no ego, he realized that it's all just dominoe that fall as they Will and he isn't any one of those dominoes, he isn't even just those 50 dominoes. Their is no Self, there is only the infinte chain of falling dominoes. The falling of that chain is the True Will. To want to do other than fall, or to want to choose when you will fall, is against the True Will. It shows your ego, has plans of it's own, which only leads to dissappointments and sorrow as the True Will does not conform to the ego wishes.
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Original post: Specktackular
[QUOTE=Froclown]It's not immortality that is the goal of thelema, although it is the goal of some people in some schools of thought. [/QUOTE]
It's hard to say what the goal of Thelema is. That's kinda what people have been talking about towards the end of this thread; speculating on True Will, etc.
I personally was speaking generally about the paths I mentioned, none of which were Thelema.
[QUOTE=Froclown]It's not immortality that is the goal of thelema, although it is the goal of some people in some schools of thought. [/QUOTE]
It's hard to say what the goal of Thelema is. That's kinda what people have been talking about towards the end of this thread; speculating on True Will, etc.
I personally was speaking generally about the paths I mentioned, none of which were Thelema.
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Dogma, Karma: Falling Stars Collide - Group Think!
Original post: Horus
[QUOTE=Was I Deleted, Again?]You've never been in the mosh pit, have you? Now that's a dance to a different beat. BTW, thrashing and diving is not my style of Saturday night at the dance but I know it exists and I am aware there is a scheme to it. But I wont boot up for it.
I'll quote you again as the last word in my post. It's quite well reasoned.
JQP
....though the heavens fall.[/QUOTE]
LOL, alright JQP - fair enough. Although some might argue that in the moshpits often to the beat, albeit in a different way, I suppose you have a point (yes, I've been in a moshpit before). But I don't want to argue about people beating each other to death to the beat of music and shaking asses (I know, I brought it up). :lol:
ChaosTech, no harm done, my post wasn't exactly the best way of replying perhaps either. To be fair I do perhaps look at Thelema differently from some Thelemites. At the risk of forcing my own interpretation of Thelema down others' throats I will say I am perhaps looking at it a little different than some when I speak here. The phrase "then Will stops & does nought" comes to mind, and evokes in me the idea that we are NOT always doing our "True Will". And I'm sure someone has found within TBotL or Crowley's work a contradiction to that, which they use. Fair enough. I figure aside from that, one of the areas which Thelemites and non-Thelemites are perhaps in disagreement/misunderstanding is whether or not there is some Magickal Predetermined True Will out there somewhere and that you can either do or not do it. I don't know that, and personally I don't think it matters if it "exists" independently of doing it or even if we are always doing it. Does an HGA REALLY exist if you don't achieve Knowledge and/or Conversation with it? I don't know. If one in the process of their spiritual development, with the motto "Do What Thou Wilt" accomplishes this, then I guess it doesn't really matter... if one finds "it". The man who spends his last hours in a cold alley somewhere probably didn't believe in destiny in those hours. The sole-survivor of a massive plane crash probably does.
[QUOTE=Was I Deleted, Again?]You've never been in the mosh pit, have you? Now that's a dance to a different beat. BTW, thrashing and diving is not my style of Saturday night at the dance but I know it exists and I am aware there is a scheme to it. But I wont boot up for it.
I'll quote you again as the last word in my post. It's quite well reasoned.
JQP
....though the heavens fall.[/QUOTE]
LOL, alright JQP - fair enough. Although some might argue that in the moshpits often to the beat, albeit in a different way, I suppose you have a point (yes, I've been in a moshpit before). But I don't want to argue about people beating each other to death to the beat of music and shaking asses (I know, I brought it up). :lol:
ChaosTech, no harm done, my post wasn't exactly the best way of replying perhaps either. To be fair I do perhaps look at Thelema differently from some Thelemites. At the risk of forcing my own interpretation of Thelema down others' throats I will say I am perhaps looking at it a little different than some when I speak here. The phrase "then Will stops & does nought" comes to mind, and evokes in me the idea that we are NOT always doing our "True Will". And I'm sure someone has found within TBotL or Crowley's work a contradiction to that, which they use. Fair enough. I figure aside from that, one of the areas which Thelemites and non-Thelemites are perhaps in disagreement/misunderstanding is whether or not there is some Magickal Predetermined True Will out there somewhere and that you can either do or not do it. I don't know that, and personally I don't think it matters if it "exists" independently of doing it or even if we are always doing it. Does an HGA REALLY exist if you don't achieve Knowledge and/or Conversation with it? I don't know. If one in the process of their spiritual development, with the motto "Do What Thou Wilt" accomplishes this, then I guess it doesn't really matter... if one finds "it". The man who spends his last hours in a cold alley somewhere probably didn't believe in destiny in those hours. The sole-survivor of a massive plane crash probably does.