Mixing East and West, up and down

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Original post: Specktackular

As an example of mixing East and West, compare Kundalini and Chakra work to the Middle Pillar. One starts from the bottom, working up and the other starts from the top and works down.

Israel Regardie points out that the Eastern method is to escape the physical and the Western method is to bring down godhead so that one's manhood, being enriched, may thereby be assumed into godhead.

Dion Fortune warns against mixing Eastern and Western methods to prevent risk of potential mental and physical problems. She also advises people of Western descent that a Western system is more suitable to their racial soul heritage.

Both Regardie and Fortune point out that there are more negative consequences that occurr from Westerners engaged in Eastern practices than those of Westerners who engage in Western practices. I'm sure this could be due to unfamiliarity with proper methods.

And, of course, Kundalini energy is notoriously dangerous.

However, the Golden Dawn utilized Tattwas and mixed various methiods. I have begun to seriously appreciate Tattwas and have been doing Qigong for years oblivious to the inherent risks. If I had known, I probably never would have started, to be honest, but I have had no problems. Apparently, my routine has been baby-safe stuff, though.

At this point, after years of Qigong and sitting Eastern-styled meditations, I not only feel comfortable with Eastern methods, but for some reason perhaps more comfortable. This might have something to do with my strict Christian upbringing which caused me to leave home at age 15. For the longest time, I could not stand Judeo-Christian anything. However, after reading much more on Qabala and Esoteric Christianity, I can comprehend how the mystical interpretation of the exoteric Judeo-Christian doctrines could be considered an evolution in consciousness, moving from pantheism to monotheism with the idea that the various spiritiual forces at work are not co-workers but employees of ultimate divinity, the ultimate cosmic law. This rings much truer to me than the old "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" stuff that used to ring quite true to me at one time.

For this reason, I have much more warmed up to the idea of Western Ceremonial, but I am still not comfortable with the idea of specific divinity, no matter how much it makes sense. I appreciate that YHVH is not the name of an actual G*d insofar as the esoteric interpretation does not portray divine providence as a bearded man in the sky who will send you to hell, but more accurately the cosmic clockworks (?). Still, calling upon divine names, etc. creeps me out moreso than chanting an Eastern mantra (which also creeps me out). Pentagrams and hexagrams creep me out more than Tattwas, but this is probably because Tattwas seem so simple and I have no background with them, whereas I first saw the Pentagram on Motley Crue and Slayer albums pre-puberty under the roof of a paranoid Christian wacko.

For this reason, I've always approached magick from the Chaos perspective. But, at this point, I see it as more limiting than freeing.

So, for all these reasons, I am curious how to proceed. And so, I would like to hear your experiences and opinion.

What did you start with and where have you gone from there?
If you have mixed East and West, how has your experience been?
When you begain, did you stick with one system for a while or have you always been a "dabbler"?

Thanks in advance. Hopefully, that wasn't too long and boring... I tend to ramble.

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Original post: Sarx

[QUOTE=Specktackular]Both Regardie and Fortune point out that there are more negative consequences that occurr from Westerners engaged in Eastern practices than those of Westerners who engage in Western practices. I'm sure this could be due to unfamiliarity with proper methods..[/QUOTE]

Gads.....
look at the sort of information that was available to those folks in their time-
shoddy and irresponsible translations, strange fanciful interpretations of exotic practices, a tradition of imposing the empire to the extent of destroying and corrupting sacred practices of colonized eastern cultures.

The most accomplished and respected western esotericists that I know without exception are also very knowledgeable and deeply skilled in authentic eastern traditions (most commonly vajrayana, tho some taoists and others).

Personally, I've been working deeply in a tibetan buddhist/vajrayoga/sanskrit mantra tradition after 25 yrs in CM- and it has been the most outrageous period of significant growth and profound insight of my life. It has completely changed my understanding of the nature of the Work. Where western systems wave their hands around intellectual analyses of tarot cards, the eastern systems work directly with transforming the subtle internal channels that are the point of that card.

The western methods in transpersonal development are spotty at best when they are compared to eastern traditions that have been tested and refined in unbroken lineages for several millenia [go figure... in the west we murder our best sages and burn their books]. The reality is that we don't have a functional vocabularly with stable meaning for higher or more subtle levels in the west. In a general way, once you clear away language and cultural differences, western and eastern esotericism is the same thing (only IMO the eastern systems go further than anything I've encountered in the west).

As far as this business about Ooohhh Kundalini...dangerous...makes your head explode... anybody with kundalini must be powerful!! The only exploding that I do when I hear these statements is bang my head on the wall in exasperation. Yes there are inappropriate things that you can do and there are consequences to being stupid about it.... but then the same thing can be said about getting behind the wheel of an automobile. Work with an appropriate and experienced teacher from a genuine lineage (NOT as specified by llewelyn -idiot-press) and have as a goal genuine transformation (NOT bouncing around on your bum or shooting beams of power out of your eyeballs). This does not mean that kundalini yoga isn't a lot of work and difficult. However, I just wish that westerners would get past this victorian infantile idiocy and just get on with the business of the work.

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Original post: Specktackular

[QUOTE=Sarx]In a general way, once you clear away language and cultural differences, western and eastern esotericism is the same thing (only IMO the eastern systems go further than anything I've encountered in the west).[/quote]

I see that you wrote "IMO," but I still feel the need to point out that lots and lots of people would disagree with this. Generally, I believe the argument is one of "transcendentalism" vs. "magickal". This particular argument is the reason I created the "Aeonics: classic or dud?" thread also in Ceremonial Magick forums.

[QUOTE=Sarx]As far as this business about Ooohhh Kundalini...dangerous...makes your head explode... anybody with kundalini must be powerful!! The only exploding that I do when I hear these statements is bang my head on the wall in exasperation. Yes there are inappropriate things that you can do and there are consequences to being stupid about it.... but then the same thing can be said about getting behind the wheel of an automobile. Work with an appropriate and experienced teacher from a genuine lineage (NOT as specified by llewelyn -idiot-press) and have as a goal genuine transformation (NOT bouncing around on your bum or shooting beams of power out of your eyeballs). This does not mean that kundalini yoga isn't a lot of work and difficult. However, I just wish that westerners would get past this victorian infantile idiocy and just get on with the business of the work.
[/QUOTE]

I would love to see you express this to everyone in the Eastern forums! They would skin you alive. (Well, they'd have plenty to say about how dangerous it can be). Coincidentally, this is not the first time I have seen the words "shotting beams out of your eyeballs" in relation to Eastern methods. Am I missing something? The thought personally never crossed my mind.

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Original post: Sarx

I see that you wrote "IMO," but I still feel the need to point out that lots and lots of people would disagree with this. Generally, I believe the argument is one of "transcendentalism" vs. "magickal".

I would invite you to get to know an adept in the kagyu tradition. As far as magical adepts, they are are in a different class ... and have been in an unbroken manner for at least 1400 yrs. Those follks are working directly at the causal/aeonic level rather than piddly stuff with a crystal.

And of course most westerners would disagree with this statement- everybody wants to believe they're on a superior path (shudders to think that Crowley is used as proof that they're on a superior path). But how the heck would they know? 99% of the factual information about many of these lineage traditions have never appeared in west in any form.

I would love to see you express this to everyone in the Eastern forums! They would skin you alive.

I already have... and I skinned them back. And frankly, I find the never ending self- inflation of folks who are impressed with their experiences not very interesting conversation. How much of "I got juice so my opinion is better than yours" is really necessary in this world? How many of those folks actually understand what is happening to them and can use that knowledge?

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Original post: Specktackular

Good points. I for one am glad to hear you saying the things you have just said. There are a couple of reasons:
1. what you just said about Crowley
2. what you've said about your experiences with Eastern after 25 years of Western

I wonder, however, do you think if you started by mixing the middle pillar with kundalini that you would have wound up in a mess?

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Original post: KCh

One shouldn't make brash comments about anyone's personal experiences as if you had any better referance. If one does not understand what they have aquired then they haven't aquired anything.

These distinctions between the eastern and western are pointless, as they both attempt the same thing. Either this or I have managed to adapt and use practices from both that aid in the same goal. I utilize Crowley's system of Magick.

As is obvious I appeal to Thelema at this time. I believe it is the next step for humanity. It has stated a Law which conforms to our own evolution. Crowley mentions it as a combination of the Yellow and White schools. Wherein every act is a an act of Love under Will, and every such experience is a sacrament.

Is it superior? That is not a decision I can claim as true outside of my own microcosom. Though the signs indicate to my mind that it is superior. But I wont give Crowley as an example as to why it is, but I see no reason why he 'cannot' be used as one. I would like to be amused by why it is you think Crowley unfit for such an example.

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Original post: Sarx

[QUOTE=Specktackular]
I wonder, however, do you think if you started by mixing the middle pillar with kundalini that you would have wound up in a mess?[/QUOTE]
There never was a mess. You apply a method, you get a result that is (hopefully) more growth than you had before you started. I spent a bunch of time ascending the middle pillar/treee which lead to some growth and a burning need to understand and engage with the nature of transformation itself. That lead to a bunch of time understanding internal alchemy (both east and west), and an encounter with the tranformative nature of kundalini (and no bouncing on my bum was necessary). However, at a point all the qabalah, cm, western alchemy etc was not very helpful and it was time to move to a system that had the language, philosophy and method I needed in as direct of terms as possible.

In fact there is an astonishing overlap between the systems and similarity in methods and their outcomes (which shouldn't be surprising.... but I had bought into the myth that east and west are SOOOO different). I'm working with subtle internal systems that are not necesarily contradictory with what I know about the western system(s), but to the best of my knowledge, the details about those systems are only represented in bits and pieces (like the tattwa system, for example) and are open to a lot of speculation and interpretation. Comparing systems has lead to unexpected insights about triggering spritual and magical events. For example, where the western method may advocate ritual, and some meditation to achieve purification, in the east you are given simple practices to engage karmic seeds directly. The initiatic experiences that follow can be quite startling. Combine both perspectives and you have some very interesting magic.

I guess where there might be a conflict is that there is a series of transitions where one's reality and relationship to causation begin to change. It's not that one perspective is wrong, but information simply changes in relevancy.

Whatever it might be called, it's been a lot of fun
Best wishes

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Original post: Specktackular

[QUOTE=KCh] I would like to be amused by why it is you think Crowley unfit for such an example.[/QUOTE]

I can't speak for Sarx, but the reason I liked what he said is because it does not seem that anyone can really agree on what Crowley was saying. The law is for all, interpret how you may. I think Crowley was mislead by a spirit or two he probably should have ignored.

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Original post: Specktackular

[QUOTE=Sarx]There never was a mess. You apply a method, you get a result that is (hopefully) more growth than you had before you started. I spent a bunch of time ascending the middle pillar/treee which lead to some growth and a burning need to understand and engage with the nature of transformation itself. That lead to a bunch of time understanding internal alchemy (both east and west), and an encounter with the tranformative nature of kundalini (and no bouncing on my bum was necessary). However, at a point all the qabalah, cm, western alchemy etc was not very helpful and it was time to move to a system that had the language, philosophy and method I needed in as direct of terms as possible.

In fact there is an astonishing overlap between the systems and similarity in methods and their outcomes (which shouldn't be surprising.... but I had bought into the myth that east and west are SOOOO different). I'm working with subtle internal systems that are not necesarily contradictory with what I know about the western system(s), but to the best of my knowledge, the details about those systems are only represented in bits and pieces (like the tattwa system, for example) and are open to a lot of speculation and interpretation. Comparing systems has lead to unexpected insights about triggering spritual and magical events. For example, where the western method may advocate ritual, and some meditation to achieve purification, in the east you are given simple practices to engage karmic seeds directly. The initiatic experiences that follow can be quite startling. Combine both perspectives and you have some very interesting magic.

I guess where there might be a conflict is that there is a series of transitions where one's reality and relationship to causation begin to change. It's not that one perspective is wrong, but information simply changes in relevancy.

Whatever it might be called, it's been a lot of fun
Best wishes[/QUOTE]

I did not mean to imply you ever had a mess. I was asking if you think that if you had not had 25 years with Western tradition prior to working with Eastern, but rather had simply begun working with both at the same time from the start if you think it would have been a disaster.

I personally have only become re-interested in Western alchemy and Qabala after studying Eastern Internal Alchemy and seeing these similiarities for myself that you are talking about. In the Golden Flower Of Life there is a diagram that looks a lot like the Tree of Life of Qabala. Eastern Internal Alchemy seems MUCH more direct.

BTW, I ask questions like these out of caution. I work alone and plan to stay that way. No master to guide me, so I do not want to fuck up and go to the nut house.

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Original post: KCh

I accept however I manage to interpret him. Thats the greatest thing about Crowley, there are layers of interpretation that take a lifetime to un-veil. Despite I never thought he confused the issue of Thelema. The point is not to agree with each other if you don't agree and leave it at that. Why should everyone agree? Judge for yourself. Can anything be more agree-able then that?

As for being misled by spirits, I'm not sure. Though if I had to manage a guess I'd say he wasn't.

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Original post: KCh

As a sort of other topic I have speculated for awhile that perhaps the Eastern and Western systems were in fact one system at a point in time. There are equivalents of both in each, with minor differences. Though these differences are what give their distinct flavors.

I agree with Fortune that if one is born of Western decent that the Western tradition is more suitable for the 'Great Work' or what-have-you. On the path the footsteps seem to fit into those left by our ancestors more easily.

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Original post: Specktackular

[QUOTE=KCh]I accept however I manage to interpret him. Thats the greatest thing about Crowley, there are layers of interpretation that take a lifetime to un-veil. Despite I never thought he confused the issue of Thelema. The point is not to agree with each other if you don't agree and leave it at that. Why should everyone agree? Judge for yourself. Can anything be more agree-able then that?

As for being misled by spirits, I'm not sure. Though if I had to manage a guess I'd say he wasn't.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but what that boils down to (for me) is that one doesn't need Crowley in the first place unless one is hopelessly glued to some form of dogma, in which case Crowley would just be scary.

Crowley appeals to thugs and intellectuals for different reasons. In my opinion, he replaces good advice with massive confusion and I'm really glad he wasn't my father, for instance.

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Original post: Sarx

[QUOTE=KCh]Though the signs indicate to my mind that it is superior. But I wont give Crowley as an example as to why it is, but I see no reason why he 'cannot' be used as one. I would like to be amused by why it is you think Crowley unfit for such an example.[/QUOTE]

I was a thelemite as well, and yes, there are merits to the system.
However, crowley himself would not deny that he was a product of his times and had his share of imperfections and limtations. By his own disappointed aknowledgement, he may have been a prophet, but he was not the Word. In the end, he died destitute, not enlightened... (what were his last words... he was wrong...?).

Thelemites acknowledge that all systems are black... and I agree that this is an important and necessary understanding. However, what thelemites don't understand that thelema is also black because it is ultimately a projection as are all systems. Projections are ultimately impermanent.

The point to this discussion is not to disparage any path of development, because each has it's own value in it's own context. A thelemite might look eagerly at the opportunity to transcend their own beliefs and methods that do not serve humanity, not to quote or aggressively defend catchy phrases. I left thelema because I felt that many folks had made crowley the object of their pursuit, not the transformation of the world.

personally, I find the confuence of eastern and western esoteric systems at this time to be a fascinating event- simply because there has never been anything like it in history.

Best wishes on your journey

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Original post: KCh

"However, crowley himself would not deny that he was a product of his times and had his share of imperfections and limtations. By his own disappointed aknowledgement, he may have been a prophet, but he was not the Word. In the end, he died destitute, not enlightened... (what were his last words... he was wrong...?)."

This is true in a sense. We all have our imperfections. I must be mistaken, but isn't the Prophet the Word? If you would be kind enough to clarify this for me I would appreciate it. It is an interesting thought. I find it difficult to claim he wasn't enlightened without being Crowley himself. We have no reason to make any such claim of being enlightened or not but by our own relative conception of what that means. No other can know if you are enlightened, only yourself can know.

"Thelemites acknowledge that all systems are black... and I agree that this is an important and necessary understanding. However, what thelemites don't understand that thelema is also black because it is ultimately a projection as are all systems. Projections are ultimately impermanent."

I would like to hear more about what you consider 'Black' and why about Thelema. A fundamental understand I have come to is that the only thing which is permanent is change itself. The point of Thelema being superior for myself is that it is superior at this period of evolution and existance of humanity. The others are defunct and 'Black' as you put it because they are no longer relevent and nothing more. They still function, but compared to Thelema they are like a soldier going to battle with a musket when others have an M-16, if you will excuse the bad analogy. Though it will fade with time as a new Aeon approaches, currently it is the best we have.

And best wishes to yourself, I enjoy it when people actually bring up something worth discussing in depth.

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Original post: Sarx

[QUOTE=Specktackular]I did not mean to imply you ever had a mess. I was asking if you think that if you had not had 25 years with Western tradition prior to working with Eastern, but rather had simply begun working with both at the same time from the start if you think it would have been a disaster.

I personally have only become re-interested in Western alchemy and Qabala after studying Eastern Internal Alchemy and seeing these similiarities for myself that you are talking about. In the Golden Flower Of Life there is a diagram that looks a lot like the Tree of Life of Qabala. Eastern Internal Alchemy seems MUCH more direct.
[/QUOTE]

Not to be fluffy, but I think we fall into the pattern that we need and what worked for me isn't necessarily what will work for others. Frankly, for some folks, having a titanic sized crack-up might be the most important thing that could ever happen to them. The buddhists say that you're not ready to be a real buddhist until you've experienced some tragedy in your life and you have no option but to face the nature of reality. What's the saying... you learn one thing by winning a race... you learn 100 by loosing it...

I read and dabbled with eastern systems off and on as I was working the western system... but it was like chewing on carpet. It hasn't been until recently that the light has gone on and there's been a fresh understanding of the potential power here. That early period was more about building a library and making contacts than doing anything substantial. It was also about filling in little nicks in the information.... like the books tell a student to breath in a particular way doing the middle pillar. I found in the eastern tradition what that 'particular way' means and how to make good use of it.

Yea... eastern alchemy DOES kick butt, doesn't it.... : ) But spend some time reading the western alchemical texts from a symbolic view point.... hmm.... they're saying a lot of the same things... : )

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Original post: Sarx

I must be mistaken, but isn't the Prophet the Word? If you would be kind enough to clarify this for me I would appreciate it.

You'll have to pardon me, it was before the last ice ace that I was into this stuff and I no longer have the books.

Crowley's own account about recording the book of the law, I believe he referred to himself as the scribe (later corrected as 'prophet') and he made it clear that it did not come from himself (and he was much bent about it as I recall). And while other texts may have followed, he considered the original transmission of the book to be the key event.

True he called himself the Great Beast, but then Cleopatra genuinely believed that she was a physical incarnation of Isis.....difficult to confirm or deny I suppose.

As far as enlightenment. The guy was pretty bitter at the end of his life. Every account that I've encountered about the mind view of a person who achieved enlightenment pretty much makes Crowley's world view an impossiblity....
I'm struggling to remember who wrote the account of Crowley's last days (was it Regardie?) but I remember it made an impression..... Didn't he have a series of insights that basically translated to ... OH CRAP!!!! I was wrong about the nature of the universe?- sorry I can't provide more substantive comment on this.... brain fading at almost 2am.

I would like to hear more about what you consider 'Black' and why about Thelema.
Though it will fade with time as a new Aeon approaches, currently it is the best we have.

We're talking about the same thing.... tho you're thinking about an Aeon in terms of zillions of years. The realization of an Aeon within an individual can happen in an instant (give or take a pinch).
The idea that 'the collective human consciousness is evolving and that spiritual systems come and go in the suppport of that evolution' was the most powerful thing that I took away from my experience as a thelemite. It transformed how I looked at and approached my own spiritual growth. I took that teaching to heart and continue to do so. Personally, the nature of the Work was ultimately about tearing down illusion, and at a point thelema served it's purpose and had to be abandoned as illusion (after all, any method that works has graduates, doesn't it? Somehow I think Uncle Al would agree). At it's most abstract core, Thelema is a conceptual projection specifically about evolution. It's not mind itself. It's not the bornless one that has no need to evolve or no need for the concept. It's not the direct bum bouncing with the essence of causation itself. In other words... consider the possiblity that reality could be outrageously more!

Must....Zzzzzzz..... : )

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Original post: fiat_lux_777

[QUOTE=KCh]" In the end, he died destitute, not enlightened... (what were his last words... he was wrong...?)."[/quote]
93

Money (or lack thereof) does not qualify one for enlightenment. Many holy men and women were and are destitute.

No-one knows Crowley's last words - he died alone.

93 93/93

Todd

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Original post: fiat_lux_777

What did you start with and where have you gone from there?
If you have mixed East and West, how has your experience been?
When you begain, did you stick with one system for a while or have you always been a "dabbler"?

I started out with Rosicrucianism and the Golden Dawn. Since then I have explored as many paths as possible including, but not limited to, Wicca, Voudun, Tantra, Buddhism, Chaos, Thelema, Asatru, Celtic Paganism and Left-Hand Path. My current path tends to draw from all of these areas in various ways, although I focus on Thelema and English Qaballa.

I have had little problem mixing East and West. For instance, I consider pranayama essential to gaining mental control to be directed in magick. I *did* have some initial difficulties reconciling the Middle Pillar, with the chakra system - until I realised they are separate and any similarity is really somewhat coincidental.

I have always been "eclectic" but not a dabbler. I have always given myself a reasonable grounding in each discipline, and not merely taken a bit from here and a bit from there without understanding the context in which it is used within the system.

93 93/93

Todd

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Original post: KCh

S.,

"As far as enlightenment. The guy was pretty bitter at the end of his life. Every account that I've encountered about the mind view of a person who achieved enlightenment pretty much makes Crowley's world view an impossiblity...."

Perhaps to better understand you I will need to hear what exactly you consider signs of enlightenment and why. If this is going into a long winded post by all means go through with it if it be your Will. This idea that perhaps Crowley was wrong and was not enlightened has peaked my interest. If you are referring to his last words being 'I am perplexed', it is extremly doubtful that he ever said such. There really is no concrete proof.

"Personally, the nature of the Work was ultimately about tearing down illusion, and at a point thelema served it's purpose and had to be abandoned as illusion."

I find this hard to ponder. I feel as though you may have skipped perhaps the most important aspect of Thelema in my opinion. Thelema reveals that every act of Love under Will is a sacrament, hence for a true Thelemite every experience is a sacrament. Though the world may be divided, it is divided for the chance of union and the sake of Love. Though the compositions of our concious selves may be illusiory figment-projections of our mind, the 'interaction' of these produces reality in its most indisputable form; that being experience itself. This idea of the world as nothing but illusion just doesn't hold water for me anymore when taken in the respect of the above. Thelema finally opened my eyes to this. That there is no illusion, but an eternal experience.

Granted those 'things' or 'spirits' which allow me to unite with this idea of Thelema are not real in and of themselves, but when united with ones self they come alive. It is by this virtue of uniting or experiencing that reality is had(it?). I didn't just 'read' Thelema, I experienced it and so it is as real as it can get. So too is this Aeon, the signs are all around. I found that the reality of it was in direct correspondance with the actual experience of its principles. So with that I cannot say I agree with your conclusions about it.

Can reality be anything more than the above? Anything more than experience itself? Anything more than Love under Will? Anything more than Union? It is much more than division, and much more than illusions. It is much more than you could ever imagine! Comedy draws ever near the arched bridge called Nothing and splints itself in twain.

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Original post: Specktackular

Kch, that was an awesome post! I especially agree that reality is not an illusion for the exact reasons you have described above.