Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Specktackular

I found this different enough (and quite an interesting concept) to warrant a new thread. If I'm wrong, please forgive me and I apologize.

Could Malkuth exhibit power over Kether? Could Malkuth change Kether?

The planets and stars influence our everyday mundane affairs. The universe has created all possible realities we experience on Earth. This is the "as above, so below" axiom.

So, I started wondering how one could perform magick to work in the reverse order by applying mundane reality to effect higher laws. This would be "as below, so above".

The only thing I came up with is nuclear detonation of a planet. If I blew up Mars, it would be interesting to see how that affects my horoscope.

I had previously used the idea of a woman and the menstrual cycle. By forcing good cheer, it is not possible to affect the lunar cycle and avoid one's period.

Any other ideas?

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: fatbastard

The planets and stars influence our everyday mundane affairs. The universe has created all possible realities we experience on Earth. This is the "as above, so below" axiom.

Are you aware of that beeing just your own assertion on the axiom?

So, I started wondering how one could perform magick to work in the reverse order by applying mundane reality to effect higher laws. This would be "as below, so above".

You do it all the time, Your actions in the past (Below) have affected your present (Above)
Similarly, your actions in the present (Below) will affect and shape the Future (Above).

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Specktackular

[QUOTE=fatbastard]Are you aware of that beeing just your own assertion on the axiom?[/quote]

Yours being?

[QUOTE=fatbastard]You do it all the time, Your actions in the past (Below) have affected your present (Above)
Similarly, your actions in the present (Below) will affect and shape the Future (Above).[/QUOTE]

Nah, that's past, present and future you're talking about there.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: fatbastard

The planets and stars influence our everyday mundane affairs. The universe has created all possible realities we experience on Earth. This is the "as above, so below" axiom.

Nah, that's planets and stars you're talking about there.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Specktackular

Ha, ha.

If I think of something, that is ABOVE, if I carry it out in reality, this becomes BELOW, according to the 4 Qabalistic worlds. But, according to you, the thought would be in the past and therefore BELOW and the material result would be ABOVE since it came after, thus reversing the Qabalistic 4 worlds according to reference, so whatever.

Can you give me an example of working against higher laws, turning the Qabalistic tree upside down, so to speak? You know, along the lines what the actual challenge was?

Essentially what I'm asking is (for instance) "Could Malkuth change Kether?"

EDIT: Eh... maybe I am thinking about this all wrong. I keep saying "higher laws" when I know there is really the one set of laws and that might be throwing me off. Perhaps "as below, so above" just doesn't seem magickal because the Below is mundane.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Specktackular

By the way, I did not mean to sound rude. I appreciate the point you made.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: fatbastard

I didnt equate thoughts belonging to the past. I have only said, that the experiences of the past and
the things you carry from it define and steer in many ways your present actions and course. Should I
also say your personality.

Can you give me an example of working against higher laws, turning the Qabalistic tree upside down, so to speak?

Sure, when you seize to think, adapt and grow your understanding of your self. Although I see no
point in trying to do that, nevertheless, it can be done. Also if you have read my definition of what
constitutes a 'Higher Law' in the other thread you'd probably not have asked for this example. Its a no-brainer actually.
Anyways, I've spotted the semantic error here. You equate the Below to Earth and
the Above to Heaven. Although this is correct too, you must be carefull when holding rigidly to symbol
definitions and maps, this can dangerously evolve into a dogmatic view on things. Like I said before
and you have agreed, correspondence is not a static one-to-one mapping.


edit:

Well, i`m not that QBL literate so anyone correct me on this if i`m wrong.
I dont think Kether is submitted to any kind of change. Change and 'evolution'
are strictly binded to the material which constitutes the 4 elements and their
rotation. I`m not sure about the other spheres,
but I definetely think that the Supernals are not
subject to change because they are already 'perfect' so to speak.
So there isnt anything to change there really.
Although malkuth is always in a mess.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Specktackular

[QUOTE=fatbastard]I didnt equate thoughts belonging to the past. I have only said, that the experiences of the past and
the things you carry from it define and steer in many ways your present actions and course. Should I
also say your personality.[/quote]

You're correct. I said a previous thought would belong in the past and therefore it would be both ABOVE and BELOW simultaneously, as it exists in both the past and the idea world.


[QUOTE=fatbastard]
Sure, when you seize to think, adapt and grow your understanding of your self. Although I see no
point in trying to do that, nevertheless, it can be done. Also if you have read my definition of what
constitutes a 'Higher Law' in the other thread you'd probably not have asked for this example. Its a no-brainer actually.
Anyways, I've spotted the semantic error here. You equate the Below to Earth and
the Above to Heaven. Although this is correct too, you must be carefull when holding rigidly to symbol
definitions and maps, this can dangerously evolve into a dogmatic view on things. Like I said before
and you have agreed, correspondence is not a static one-to-one mapping.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, what I'm asking is exactly that: Could Malkuth change Kether? I have just now edited the original post to reflect this is exactly what I'm asking.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: fatbastard

Yeah, what I'm asking is exactly that: Could Malkuth change Kether?

Curiously thats what actually the majority of people does all the time.
They try to use Malkuth to change Kether. That is, try to impose their "elementally impure/unbalanced" version of Heaven and "Opinion on how things should be so that we can all be happy" down to people's throats.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Specktackular

[QUOTE=fatbastard]Curiously thats what actually the majority of people does all the time.
They try to use Malkuth to change Kether. That is, try to impose their "elementally impure/unbalanced" version of Heaven and "Opinion on how things should be so that we can all be happy" down to people's throats.[/QUOTE]

But it does not actually work, correct? It does not actually alter higher laws.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: fatbastard

It works depending the throat beeing shoved to. For some throats, the higher laws have changed AND ONLY MY RELIGION KNOWS THE TRUE HIGHER LAWS AND ALL OTHERS WILL ROT IN HELL FOR I HAVE SEEN THE ONE TRUE LIGHT!
For other is a whole different ballgame.
Its a matter of insight really.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Specktackular

So... the higher laws to you are tantamount to personal perception?

I disagree. I can perceive safety only to be eaten by a shark. The ultimate "safety-ness" of the situation was not changed by my perception of it. And higher laws are not changed due to someone's perception. If I don't perceive magnetism, the force will not disappear.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: MaeveQ

Enough with the As above So below..
If you apply more force to the shark's jaws than it applies to you then you wont get eaten. These so called laws are usually about forces. Just like gravity. You apply more force than that then you beat it.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Specktackular

[QUOTE=MaeveQ]Enough with the As above So below..
If you apply more force to the shark's jaws than it applies to you then you wont get eaten. These so called laws are usually about forces. Just like gravity. You apply more force than that then you beat it.[/QUOTE]

The question is: can anyone apply more force than Kether, All and the Above?
Don't magicians generally learn how to work WITH the higher forces, rather than being crushed by them?

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: fatbastard

Higher laws have nothing to do with applying more and more brute force.

If you apply more force to the shark's jaws than it applies to you then you wont get eaten.

Also, if you would have noticed that 'Danger Sharks!' sign on the beach instead of admiring your oiled-up muscles in the Sun, you wouldn't have get eaten. Also, if you know in what waters sharks
generally hang out.

If I don't perceive magnetism, the force will not disappear.

Sure, but magnetism in your model, is a Law of the Below, and hopefully lots of people have graduated
highschool and are aware of the true laws of magnetism.

Anyhow, its just basically where you are and where do you want to get. Around that you basically
align the scales and laws and maps and correspondences. Untill you change course, so you do it
all over again.
Personally I dont use examples from laws that I was taught in school. To me, personally, my course
is completely different from beeing able to throw lighting bolts from my fingertips or control iron like
Magneto. I perceive these things as useless in my current course so I focus on other things instead.
Thats why my whole system is aligned on a different axis although the differences are reconciled
in some point.


edit:

If we take the Kybalions take on the ALL which I urge you to study thoroughly then we
assume that there isn't anything MORE than ALL ,because the ALL is ALL there is to it.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Specktackular

[QUOTE=fatbastard]Higher laws have nothing to do with applying more and more brute force.[/quote]

Brute force would be subject to higher laws.

[QUOTE=fatbastard]Also, if you would have noticed that 'Danger Sharks!' sign on the beach instead of admiring your oiled-up muscles in the Sun, you wouldn't have get eaten. [/quote]

Where'd the "beware of sharks" sign come from, by the way? Are you taking charge of my metaphors now?

[QUOTE=fatbastard]Sure, but magnetism in your model, is a Law of the Below, and hopefully lots of people have graduated
highschool and are aware of the true laws of magnetism.[/quote]

FYI, I was referring to magnetism in the alchemical sense (ie. Initiation Into Hermetics), which they don't really cover in high school.

[QUOTE=fatbastard]
Personally I dont use examples from laws that I was taught in school. To me, personally, my course
is completely different from beeing able to throw lighting bolts from my fingertips or control iron like
Magneto. I perceive these things as useless in my current course so I focus on other things instead.
Thats why my whole system is aligned on a different axis although the differences are reconciled
in some point.[/quote]

That comment reminds me of your "Gods on the golfcourse" remark. These imaginary juxtapositions of yours don't do much by way of actual discussion. Are you trying to put words in my mouth or just rambling?


[QUOTE=fatbastard]
If we take the Kybalions take on the ALL which I urge you to study thoroughly then we
assume that there isn't anything MORE than ALL ,because the ALL is ALL there is to it.[/QUOTE]


That was thoroughly unenlightening and condescending. Not to mention total avoidance. Thanks (not).

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: fatbastard

Sorry, I thought that you were reffering to magnetism we are taught in highschool, in the same way we are taught about sharks in highschool.
Anyway I dont feel that I have something more to contribute to this discussion.
I also feel that I have answered all your present questions along with your future ones. Yes I`m sorry if this feels like arrogance to you, but insight most of the times behaves like this. Of course there is the possibility of me beeing totally
clueless.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Specktackular

[QUOTE=fatbastard]Sorry, I thought that you were reffering to magnetism we are taught in highschool, in the same way we are taught about sharks in highschool.
Anyway I dont feel that I have something more to contribute to this discussion.
I also feel that I have answered all your present questions along with your future ones. Yes I`m sorry if this feels like arrogance to you, but insight most of the times behaves like this. Of course there is the possibility of me beeing totally
clueless.[/QUOTE]


Yeah, there is that possibility. Insight is usually rather insightful and the wise generally can express wisdom directly. You have answered my question by not answering: you don't know.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: callum

some ideas...

a change in Malkuth IS a change in Kether (i don't suscribe to a "changeless perfection" theory of Kether... its astrological correspondence is the nebula which coalesces and dissolves all the time). many philosophers (Buddha, Hume) would argue that causation is indefinate (a projection of human perception) and that things themselves are really just part of the process of change.

there is also the matter of scale. evolution-mutation requires some sort of critical mass before the change is generally measurable. if the moon was to disappear out lives would be dramatically changed. the complete disappearance of a person (and the minor mass that she contributes to the earth's total mass) would result in a change to the moon's orbit however it would be too insignificant for any astronomer (let alone any astrologer) to measure. similarly the development of one organism the absorbs sulfur from the atmosphere may be insignificant but when there are billions of these the entire planet is changed. i think this is why some magickians talk about nudging probabilities in the right direction rather than pursuing lost causes.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: fiat_lux_777

93

It may only be my perception, but I have always thought of the sephiroth as being both immanent and transcendant. Kether is not only "out there", it is also "in here". It is nowhere and everywhere, and not located in a particular place. Kether is the seed of perfection hidden beneath the layers of dross. Actions in the so-called "mundane world" (a misnomer, if ever there was IMHO) directly affect Kether both in a personal and transpersonal manner - as well as every other level of existence and consciousness.

There is no division between magick and mundane, higher and lower, inner and outer. Such demarcations are arbitrary and subject to the perceptions of the observer.


93 93/93

Todd

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: I AM

93

It may only be my perception, but I have always thought of the sephiroth as being both immanent and transcendant. Kether is not only "out there", it is also "in here". It is nowhere and everywhere, and not located in a particular place. Kether is the seed of perfection hidden beneath the layers of dross. Actions in the so-called "mundane world" (a misnomer, if ever there was IMHO) directly affect Kether both in a personal and transpersonal manner - as well as every other level of existence and consciousness.

There is no division between magick and mundane, higher and lower, inner and outer. Such demarcations are arbitrary and subject to the perceptions of the observer.


93 93/93

Todd

Although fiat_lux_777 said it very well I would like to add support to what is said here. "As Within, So Without". And its reverse is true as well. The same is true with "As Above So Below". These truths, like the layers of an onion, are true on many levels. Apply them to the sephiroth and some interesting truths emerge.

It is interesting that fiat_lux_777 makes this quote

Actions in the so-called "mundane world" (a misnomer, if ever there was IMHO) directly affect Kether both in a personal and transpersonal manner - as well as every other level of existence and consciousness.

This is a direct example of "As Without, So Within". A change to our external world changes our internal world. And its reverse is true as well.

As a gross example I give you the Optimist and the Pessimist. Both supposedly live in the same world but see two entirely different REALITIES. For them, their worlds ARE different. And each of their worlds becomes their prision.

The secret is to step outside and Witness and Acknowledge that "As Within So Without" is truth. At that point, true change becomes possible.

Humbly, I AM

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Specktackular

Damn, this is interesting.

But, I made a big mistake splitting this into two threads. As the threads continue, I can clearly see it wasn't necessary and cross-referencing the other thread, which has clearly entered the territory of effectual magick now, is annoying as well as duplicate posting.

Kether corresponds to the ray of creation as the initial I AM, right? By trickle-down, various hierarchies are involved. As Lon Milo Duquette jokes, the angel "Gravity-el" controls gravity and we are at the mercy of gravity. It is the order of things. Someone else pointed out that angels are used to control demons and wondered if demons were ever used to control angels.

Perhaps I am thinking too much like "overthrowing" these hierarchies, rather than correspondences, but I wonder what we could do here on earth to affect the I AM. (For instance, to use Christianity as a simple example, "Satan" try as he might, can not overpower Jehovah.)

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: fiat_lux_777

Kether corresponds to the ray of creation as the initial I AM, right? By trickle-down, various hierarchies are involved. As Lon Milo Duquette jokes, the angel "Gravity-el" controls gravity and we are at the mercy of gravity. It is the order of things. Someone else pointed out that angels are used to control demons and wondered if demons were ever used to control angels.

93

But we are not at the mercy of gravity Hence those big silver things that transport us from here to there through the air!

Again, I feel the differing opinions are simply a matter of perspective.

Perhaps I am thinking too much like "overthrowing" these hierarchies, rather than correspondences, but I wonder what we could do here on earth to affect the I AM. (For instance, to use Christianity as a simple example, "Satan" try as he might, can not overpower Jehovah.)

However, if enough people turn away from Christianity, and Satanism bloomed into a large, influential religion, Jehovah might be toppled from his throne

One person can change and influence the outer world (as within, so without) - we need only look at people such as Hitler, who managed to influence the whole nationof Germany through his thoughts and words - truly magick. Advertisers do this every day, as do politicians, doctors...everyone. How I act, speak and think has a direct or indirect affect on the outer world. The act of simply typing this post is a demonstration that the reverse is always true....collecting my thoughts effects change within myself because it solidifies concepts within my own mind and brings me to new realisations...reading the post evokes feelings/actions within anyone who reads them, regardless of whether those reponses be derisive, complimentary or otherwise. The inner me has affected the outer world, and the responses I receive affect the inner me (i.e. they may make me consider my stance and discard long-held beliefs which I now judge to be faulty).

It may be a rather flippant remark, but "As above, so below" = mysticism, "As below, so above" = magick.

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Todd

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Specktackular

[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]93

But we are not at the mercy of gravity Hence those big silver things that transport us from here to there through the air![/quote]

I knew someone would mention spaceships or airplanes. But, we ARE at gravity's mercy. I can jump up in the air, too, but gravity isn't overthrown! The planets are kept in place by gravity. THAT is the hierarchy. You can't fight that with a jet or a rocket. Natural law ALLOWS you to invent flying machines.

[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]However, if enough people turn away from Christianity, and Satanism bloomed into a large, influential religion, Jehovah might be toppled from his throne [/quote]

Since we're talking theoretically, Jehovah would never be toppled because the theory itself does not allow for it. The Bible says Jehovah will win. End of that story. You're trying to write a new theory into the one that has been definitively written (see Revelations).

[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]One person can change and influence the outer world (as within, so without) - we need only look at people such as Hitler, who managed to influence the whole nationof Germany through his thoughts and words - truly magick. Advertisers do this every day, as do politicians, doctors...everyone.[/quote]

Yes, "everything is magick..." so why not throw away all your magick books? Hitler made his mark... but nature came back to crush him. Sure, there's an argument that "nature kills everyone in the end." But, did Hitler change the hierarchy of nature? It doesn't appear that he did to me. Was he working with natural law or against it? He did what he was allowed within the confines of the nature, it seems to me. He, if anything, affected the lower world with help from the higher. He thought what he put into action. His actions affected the thoughts of other individuals, but beyond this, the balance of nature was not upset.



[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]How I act, speak and think has a direct or indirect affect on the outer world. [/quote]

Once again, that is "as above, so below" because what you speak and think come from the idea world (above). If you act without thinking, your DNA and the probability of your random motions have still been ordered by the Above world.

[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]It may be a rather flippant remark, but "As above, so below" = mysticism, "As below, so above" = magick.

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Todd[/QUOTE]

If we are talking about things most people wouldn't consider magick (like advertising), then this makes sense. If we are talking of ritual magick, however, we are intentionally tapping into the higher realms to change the lower world. There is a correlation between the ultimate change in the lower world and the higher realms, but have we really changed the higher realms or merely worked within their scope of possibilities and chosen a new one for yourself to experience down here? Can you picture a new color? Can you come up with a new emotion?

To quote Wynn Wagner III's "Kabbalah Notes":

"Even in the holy language of gods and angels, it is clear that shit still rolls downhill. From the holiest origin through the creative energies of archangels, the next pack of beings involved are the workers. We have a vast vocabulary for these beings: angels, elementals, faeries, elves, sylphs, salamanders, gnomes, sprites, devas, nature spirits, devils and demons.

Get this: archangels often communicate using actual speech. Higher and lower entities stick to signs, symbols, and omens. Archangels can get right up in your face and enunciate, or so the Kabbalists claim. "

Now, this is a roadmap. But the roadmap goes like this: "The Word comes to Briah from Atziluth and there are entities there who convert the Word into creation. They get things done." So, seeing as these entities "get things done" can we change the fundamental essence of these entities that shape reality?" Does reality selection affect higher worlds? It appears to be a descending scale to me and anything that is done is accounted for within this model... I'm just trying to imagine as to how one would change "The Word" from the lowest point "The World".

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Specktackular

[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]It may be a rather flippant remark, but "As above, so below" = mysticism, "As below, so above" = magick.

93 93/93

Todd[/QUOTE]

If we are talking about things most people wouldn't consider magick (like advertising), then this makes sense. If we are talking of ritual magick, however, we are intentionally tapping into the higher realms to change the lower world. There is a correlation between the ultimate change in the lower world and the higher realms, but have we really changed the higher realms or merely worked within their scope of possibilities and chosen a new one for yourself to experience down here? Can you picture a new color? Can you come up with a new emotion?