Energy Systems- Hub vs. Flow?

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Energy Systems- Hub vs. Flow?

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Original post: 9~6~3

Before anyone jumps on me, I'll freely admit I'm not well-versed in Qabala, chakras, or any established energy manipulation system. I am not a Ceremonial Mage. I'm just some kid who happened upon energy manipulation the hard way. :lol:

So... that in mind, here's my personal theory on energy flow.

I've tried chakra work in the past to some extent though I wouldn't consider myself an expert, or even an adept. Just a little experience. Qabala, to me (an extremely ignorant novice), seems to be a glorified and overly-complex chakra system. It is also a stationary, or what I call a "hub" system. Chakras and Qabala both have distinct energy hubs, centers through which energy flows. Am I right? I think so... :???:
These hubs have certain attributes, areas of control, etc. that they govern with, according to practitioners, precise regularity.

But in my own experience, I've found that maybe there aren't energy hubs, but a massive system of crisscrossing "arteries" and "veins" of energy, a flowing system, devoid of any real hubs or centers. This is my own personal experience, and I don't see it as right or wrong, just personal is all. I can explain further, I think, if you want. I'm feeling especially tired at the moment, so I'm being lazy. :lol:

Has anyone heard of this? Some historical precedent? I've found that acupunctural theory seems to give it credence, but nothing else. Nothing whatsoever in Western esoteric or occult thought.

I posted this here in Ceremonial instead of OT-Occult because I wanted a more... studious approach, if you get my meaning. Please, unless it's really beneficial to the topic, no one-liners. ;) They can be annoying.

Thanks in advance.

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Energy Systems- Hub vs. Flow?

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Original post: Defgarden

There's a bagillion ways to look at this.

Chakras, nodes, Sephiroth, etc etc, can either be seen as valves, hubs, lenses, veins and arteries that contract and retract, massive psychic tuning forks, hehe, I like that one, massive psychic tuning fork.

Technically energy and matter are constantly moving, so you know. Um, I forgot how I was going to explain this. (well, TECHNICALLY scientists have gotten matter to stop their molecular vibration and reach absolute zero temperature, but that is beyond the scope and relevancy of this discussion)

Massive Psychic Tuning Fork. Heheheh. I'm friggin' stoned hehe.

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Energy Systems- Hub vs. Flow?

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Original post: Nalyd23

[QUOTE=9~6~3]But in my own experience, I've found that maybe there aren't energy hubs, but a massive system of crisscrossing "arteries" and "veins" of energy, a flowing system, devoid of any real hubs or centers.[/QUOTE]You may be more in line with the very thing as what you are claiming is differing than your own interpretation than you think.:D Those energy centers are, in the metaphor of the chakras, sort of like vortices of energy where those criss-crosses of "arteries" and "veins" of energy are found, the strong points, like criss-crossing ley lines on the planetary grid where electro-magnetism seems stronger. You can even imagine them as eddies or whirlpools in a river where the current is strongest. The easiest energy centers to activate, and to show others who have not experienced these things consciously, are in the hands. This is why a lot of healing is done with the laying on of hands. (PM me and I will give you instructions on how to quickly activate them so you can astonish friends and family who may not believe you when you tell them about this wonderful electro-magnetism in our bodies) The Qabalah, in my experience, only uses a similar system when doing pathworkings/meditations on the Tree of Life, which is essentially a schematic or model just as the chakra system. Qabalah is more about correspondences and elaborate synchronous associations with word, number, letter, etc. These are what are meditated on for insight. The Tree of Life is what I think you really mean when you are saying Qabalah. It can be used as a model for meditation and raising energy (kundalini, haha, been awhile since I've used that word) just the same as the chakra system. Though there is some substance to what "chakras" and the sephiroth represent, they are simply devices for visualization to help map where you are channelling the energy in your body and what effects it may have there. I tried to keep this simple at the risk of sounding downright stupid but this is as basic as I can put it. Hopefully someone else may be better at finding the right words to describe this.:D

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Energy Systems- Hub vs. Flow?

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Original post: Nalyd23

[QUOTE=Defgarden]Massive Psychic Tuning Fork. Heheheh. I'm friggin' stoned hehe.[/QUOTE]:lol: Yeah, good one Defgarden. Got your thinking-cap on I see!:mrgreen:

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Energy Systems- Hub vs. Flow?

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Original post: 9~6~3

[QUOTE=Nalyd23]The Tree of Life is what I think you really mean when you are saying Qabalah.[/QUOTE] Erm... sure? I guess so, but like I said I'm so NOT versed in any of that, I wouldn't know! :lol:

Thanks Nalyd and Defgarden, for your posts. I'm looking forward to more! *wink wink, nudge nudge* :)

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Original post: Grey Magician

Personally i never really got into the charka's that heavy. I just learned how to raise and call energy into me, and focus it through different parts of my body. For example i can call all my energy in my body to my feet, my hands, my left foot, my right foot, my left hand and right hand etc. I focus most of my energy through my hands because that is how i throw energy first off, second when i am charging something i will eitheir hold the object in my hand and send the energy i stored in my hands to the object, or i will lay my hands over the object, not touching, and charge it like that.

That is all i have to say.

Sincerely,

GM

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Original post: Nalyd23

OK, since you may not know what I am referring to Holy Peepstress, here is a picture I found that shows how the Tree of Life, the schematic used in the Qabalah, aligns with the energy-centers of the human body.
Image

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Energy Systems- Hub vs. Flow?

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Original post: 9~6~3

Yes, that's what I meant! Thanks, oh Great Pope Peep Nalyd! :mrgreen:

The Tree of Life comes across to me as too... rigid. Straight lines and perfect angles on an organic form, just doesn't fit. I can see how the hubs of the Tree of Life may correspond to crosspoints, or intersections if you will, but it's too perfect to truly suit a human, in my opinion. It must be a generalized design, yes?

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Original post: Nalyd23

It is a design of convention. You can use your creativity however you want. If you decide to use this diagram as a device for visualization, morph it, change it, reverse it, make it a living tree. It is also a schematic for the macrocosm as well, not just the microcosm.

As a side note, there is another sphere known as Daath that is in the center of the loop, or womb, of the Tree of Life Ankh. In that picture I posted it would be where the mouth is and that is very fitting being that Daath is the Abyss. Speech (language barrier) may be the Abyss we have to cross. The spoken word is the great equalizer and can destroy like it creates. Burroughs called it "the word virus" and tried to wipe out the word by using words. Our limits are defined first by words and I think what you may be really getting at here 9~6~3 may be the limited views we seem to have when discussing subjective things like Magick and energy in our body. How do we cross the Abyss of the Language Barrier, the Abyss of Metaphor?:shock:

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Original post: Defgarden

[QUOTE=Nalyd23]It is a design of convention. You can use your creativity however you want. If you decide to use this diagram as a device for visualization, morph it, change it, reverse it, make it a living tree. It is also a shematic for the macrocosm as well, not just the microcosm.

As a side note, there is another sphere known as Daath that is in the center of the loop, or womb, of the Tree of Life Ankh. In that picture I posted it would be where the mouth is and that is very fitting being that Daath is the Abyss. Speech (language barrier) may be the Abyss we have to cross. The spoken word is the great equalizer and can destroy like it creates. Burroughs called it "the word virus" and tried to wipe out the word by using words. Our limits are defined first by words and I think what you may be really getting at here 9~6~3 may be the limited views we seem to have when discussing subjective things like Magick and energy in our body. How do we cross the Abyss of the Language Barrier, the Abyss of Metaphor?:shock:[/QUOTE]
I just had an interesting thought. Perhaps crossing the Abyss in this sense would mean developing a level of understanding (of course, landing of Binah) beyond (or deeper if you so see it) the level of speech to recieve ideas. For instance, you could look at something, and instantly understand it's relation to your life and you know how it will factor into your will and the application of your will.

This is a parallel to some forms of buddhist enlightenment. I forget exactly which two buddhist monks, but there is a story that goes that for a long time, the teaching lineage passed on it's highest grade or whatnot to those students who had truly been enlightened. The head monk said he was going to give a lecture, and instead just held up a flower. The crowd became confused, and only one monk seemed to get it and the head monk and the monk that "got it" had like this moment of telepathy going on, or just total understanding of the same concept that couldn't be desribed with any words.

Damn, I'm friggin stoned again. Abyss of Metaphor away...

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Original post: Qryztufre

[QUOTE=Nalyd23]It is a design of convention. You can use your creativity however you want. If you decide to use this diagram as a device for visualization, morph it, change it, reverse it, make it a living tree. It is also a shematic for the macrocosm as well, not just the microcosm.

[/QUOTE]I mostly agree with Nalyd23. I see the tree of life as "mostly correct". When feel those straight lines are a bit more wobbly then they look in any pic I've seen. But with how most of the people here at CM view things they would likely call it a load of rubbish had the tree of life looked more like a tree of twisted branches (no offence to anyone here!).

Once you get your 'studious' answers here on CM, you might wanna PM a mod asking that this gets sent down to the Astral/trance board...some of those psionicists know a bit about energy.

Q

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Original post: Horus

Well the map is not the territory. Never can be, never was meant to be.

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Original post: KCh

Though Nal has been kind enough to give a small graphic, I don't entirely agree with it.

Typically when the Tree of Life is shown on the human body the 10th sphere(also known as Malkuth) is near the feet, with the 1st sphere(also known as Kether) at the top of the cranium. Picturing this we need the person 'standing' and not in a lotus postion. Though somewhat the same, they(being the eastern Chakras and the western Sephirot) really have fundamental differences.

In the Chakra system we have seven which inhabit the central pillar of the body. On the Tree of Life we see only five at the most.

There are many more Chakras then the sacred seven. I think the number is 78, but don't quote me on that. The tree of life only contains 10 sephirot.

Whereas the Chakras represent energy conduits in the body, the Tree of Life is a map of the universe as we know it. I have never heard of anyone considering the Chakras as also representative of the universe. Can the Chakras be applied to the organization and understanding of the universe in and of themselves? I'm not sure. Since the human is a microcosom, and is a direct reflection of the macrocosom, it stands to continue that the Tree of Life can fit both as it is a map of the macrocosom or the microcosom depending on how you wish to see it. It accomplishes both. Do the Chakras as well? Not really. At least I haven't come to that conclusion.

One very interesting thing you can do with the Tree of Life is filing of experience. What I mean by this is the fact you can take anything and attribute it to one of the ten sephirot and derive from this induction the 'nature' of the thing in question and not just its superficial construction or constitution. It allows you to gain a 'spirit' of sorts from anything you can experience. It shows the interconnectedness and meaningfulness of the Universe in an objective way. The Chakra system can only accomplish this by inward meditation and concentration. I have found no way to utilize it objectivly as I can the Tree of Life.

Of course I could go on and on but I think you get the point of how deep this can become. Pick up a nice book on the subject like 'The Kabbalah Unvieled' by Mathers to learn a bit more. The most important thing is being able to learn about it through application in your day to day life. Only then can you truly begin to understand such things as Chakras and the Tree of Life.

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Original post: Specktackular

[QUOTE=Nalyd23]
As a side note, there is another sphere known as Daath that is in the center of the loop, or womb, of the Tree of Life Ankh. In that picture I posted it would be where the mouth is and that is very fitting being that Daath is the Abyss. Speech (language barrier) may be the Abyss we have to cross. The spoken word is the great equalizer and can destroy like it creates. Burroughs called it "the word virus" and tried to wipe out the word by using words. Our limits are defined first by words and I think what you may be really getting at here 9~6~3 may be the limited views we seem to have when discussing subjective things like Magick and energy in our body. How do we cross the Abyss of the Language Barrier, the Abyss of Metaphor?:shock:[/QUOTE]

Not to derail this too much off topic, since you have included this as a side note, but I wanted to add a bit more for anyone who might be interested in the Word virus.

"HELLO... YES... HELLO... YES... "

According to Gysin (and he is William Burroughs hero whom Burroughs imitated), Woman was a biological mistake and with her came the Word: "HELLO... YES... HELLO... YES... " Gysin further said, "What are we here for? We are HERE TO GO (as in leave Earth)." People sometimes think this means Gysin was a misogynist, but he had close women friends and I believe what he meant was that planet Earth was a trap and perpetuation of the species was a mistake. This man has some interesting ideas.

"The cut-ups, permutations and tape recorder experiments carried out by Brion Gysin are aimed in this direction, towards making the words talk on their own. The Word must have been outside in the beginning. Letâ??s put it outside again: the beginning and end of Word. "

-William S. Burroughs

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Original post: 9~6~3

KCh- although that's a very informative (and dogmatic) post, it doesn't really have much to do with the question... I'm not really interested in what the Tree of life is or what it can and can't do. I just wanted to know if there was any precedent in the Western occult for an energy system devoid of hubs.

Thank you Qryz for your suggestion, but I really wanted this thread here in Ceremonial, to get the Ceremonial Mages' approach. I do appreciate though. ;)

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Original post: Nalyd23

[QUOTE=KCh] At least I haven't come to that conclusion.[/QUOTE]IMO, it would be best to never come to any conclusion, you may lose what makes Magick.:D
And Speck (the King of off-topic excursion)? Ah, I am not even going to touch your post.:lol:

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Original post: KCh

The spheres on the Tree of Life are equally active and receptive. As an example when the Tree developes from sphere 4 to sphere 5, sphere 5 becomes receptive and sphere 4 active. And as the Tree developes from shpere 5 to 6, sphere 5 becomes active and sphere 6 receptive.

So in a sense there are no 'hubs' so to speak. The energy is always flowing. There can never be stagnation.

As for being dogmatic, I can only shake my head and smile with a chuckle!


S.,


Those ideas sound a lot like the Cathars, but I won't get into that!

N.,

Any conclusions I find most evidently and nearly always change in some form just when I start to understand it! So yes, in a sense I never actually come to any conclusions but one; that being the evolution of conclusion!

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Original post: 9~6~3

[QUOTE=KCh]So in a sense there are no 'hubs' so to speak. The energy is always flowing. There can never be stagnation.[/quote]

Thank you! I thought maybe I had it wrong, but I just didn't know.

[QUOTE=KCh]As for being dogmatic, I can only shake my head and smile with a chuckle![/quote] Don't we all? ;)


*EDIT*

KCh, I'm sorry if my previous post came across as rude or offensive. I was very tired and in the middle of a conversation (OK, I was being nagged about something), and ended up just burbling something out onto the keyboard. Wasn't my intention to be curt or rude!

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Original post: KCh

963,

Rude? Offensive? No! At least you have the sense to see that the information I gave does seem dogmatic and really 'is' dogmatic. But at least I have the courage not to claim it some kind of universal truth eh? Believe what you Will! Glad I could help.

You can think of the spheres in this way as well: Starting at the top water is poured into sphere one and that sphere fills up and begins to overflow down the others in succession. This is not an uncommon visual in the artwork associated with the Occult.

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Original post: Nalyd23

[QUOTE=KCh]This is not an uncommon visual in the artwork associated with the Occult.[/QUOTE]Nope, not uncommon at all. Matter of fact it is used extensively in the Thoth Tarot for the Suit of Cups.:D

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Original post: m1thr0s

9~6~3,

Aside from all this discussion of the Tree and sepheroth and paths et all, you might want to take a good look at the Priestess card in AC's Book of Thoth if you have access to one. The "netting" you seem to be describing figures prominently in her imagery and is the principle way by which she is able to extend her influence across whole universe. Netting or Gridding is a different animal than Paths and Sepheroth which are really more like aspects of a Tree (as you might expect) whereas netting is more synaptic in nature - more reflective of the nervous system itself... There are entire schools of metaphysical meanderings committed to understanding just what this networking is and how it functions. One of these is quite modern and has achieved a lot of scientific attention of late but I can't remember exactly who is behind it. This netting, or as I say, gridding, is often attributed to the mind in particular, so we see it discussed in terms of telepathy etc a lot, but it can also stem from the heart center and other power centers like the solar plexus etc. For whatever reason it is most often linked to the pineal gland, or the so-called "third eye"...The Priestess, of course, shares this coordinate with the Empress on the Tree of Life but it is the Priestess that really spans the Abyss linking Tiphareth to Crown so, for her, this netting is a vital part of the work she does...I would just keep digging into it if I were in your position. I know there is a lot of information scattered about on this subject.

I won't belabor it here but I happen to work a lot with this kind of gridding via the formula of Abrahadabra which itself forms a uniform netting spanning from Kingdom (sepheroth #10) all the way to Ain Soph, situated just above Crown on the TOL. So because I do work with this sort of mechanism (?) I am at least intuitively attuned to its qualities. I think you should not discount the Tree (not that you have done so) but that you are right in drawing a distinction between that energy system and the Tree itself...They are not quite the same thing though they definitely do interact...I am quite certain this whole thing links to String Theory at some point but this is getting outside my field of expertise. The other thing you can do is to scrutinize light itself and how it operates on a particle level, since if you could put a beam of light under a really huge microscope and slow it down a bit that is exactly what you would see...billions and billions of coordinated strands of energy laddering off into space...Many believe that consciousness and light follow a very similar navigational game plan but with the difference that consciousness has a lot more quantum tricks up its sleeve...

Just a few ideas to bat around...

addendum: I am frankly not clear why the notion of sepheroth as energy "hubs" would pose a problem of any kind since that is exactly what they are by definition...well...classical definition at least. I look at the Tree proper as kind of outlining the Bone Structure of the Body of Light itself whereas this networking you are describing is much more indicative of the Flesh. Any neurologist will tell you that bones are childsplay compared to the flesh so it is natural I think that we would have less heuristical data compiled around it. It is also kind of non-sensical to pick issues around how the TOL appears when sitting vs standing. It's an important point to examine but it doesn't work effectively as any kind of rebuttal since the Tree is essentially a mental matrix anyway and is pliable in all directions...as well as dimensions...

m1thr0s

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