Original post: strangeDivine
As you may know, the pineal gland secretes a hormone called melatonin. Melatonin has been linked to regulating the sleep cycle. Melatonin dietary supplements have appeared on the market as a "natural" remedy for things like insomnia and jet-lag. I'm not certain what this stuff actually is; I would guess that it is some kind of plant hormone approximation of the chemical produced by the pineal gland, much like the soy-derived estrogens. I could very well be wrong about that.
Nevertheless, I have a friend who has used a melatonin dietary supplement, and he says that after taking it, he experienced some of the most vivid dreams that he has ever had in his life, though they turned out to be a bit frightening. He says he was not lucid during the course of the dream cycles. He said it had the dazzling clarity of a lucid dream, but without the lucidity. I believe he compared the dreamstate to an intense drug-induced trip (which is a subject that he is very familiar with.)
His lack of lucidity during the experience could be attributed to any number of things. Others report increased lucidity. Look at this Erowid.org experience report from someone who used melatonin in combination with valerian and vitamin B6:
Last night I took 400 mg of Valeriana Officinalis, 5 mg of melatonin, and 1 mg of Pyridoxine HCl (Vitamin B-6) 30 minutes before going to sleep. I had the most INTENSE series of dreams of my entire life! At times it felt as if I was not dreaming and was actually in a twilight-type of sleep where I shifted between sleep and conciousness continously. I could hear the radio and the rain outside my window and those sounds would blend into my dreams.
At one point I actually felt that I stepped (not really floated, but stepped) outside of my body and was able to percieve myself sleeping. I couldn't really see myself, but I *sensed* that I was there. In the morning I dismissed it as my overactive imagination, but throughout the entire day I can't seem to shake the feeling that there was a lot more to this than I'm ackowledging. This was my first time taking valerian. I have taken melatonin before and have noticed that my dreams seem a lot more lucid, but could it be the combination?
I think you can see where I am going with this. Has anyone here tried melatonin dietary supplements, valerian, B6, or any other chemical, for that matter, to manipulate sleep states?
Melatonin
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Melatonin
Original post: Serpentiferous
I've heard of this. Actually another student in a class on magic I took (she was a professor of psychology) recommended it. Unfortunitly seditives, even in herbal form, can hamper your lucidity, as your friend noticed. It's probably safer to take a vitamin D suppliment, especially if your ancestors come from a southerly climate and you don't get enough exposure to the sun where your at now... without it you could come down with rickets and such, in addition to poor sleep. :shock:
The best bet for ensuring lucidity is to take a nap during the day so your well rested at night. Your mind will feel over rested then and want to return to a waking level of consciousness, while your body still sleeps.
-Serpenti
I've heard of this. Actually another student in a class on magic I took (she was a professor of psychology) recommended it. Unfortunitly seditives, even in herbal form, can hamper your lucidity, as your friend noticed. It's probably safer to take a vitamin D suppliment, especially if your ancestors come from a southerly climate and you don't get enough exposure to the sun where your at now... without it you could come down with rickets and such, in addition to poor sleep. :shock:
The best bet for ensuring lucidity is to take a nap during the day so your well rested at night. Your mind will feel over rested then and want to return to a waking level of consciousness, while your body still sleeps.
-Serpenti
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Melatonin
Original post: hallucinogen2
Melatonin never enhanced my dream state, nor did valarien root. B-6 just kept me up all night (I used it because it was recommended in a book to increase dream memory and lucidity). If you take a combo, however, I have had no experience. I would be willing to try it though.
Melatonin has helped me sleep for a long time. Valarian root just rests me. I will check out erowid though. I didn't know they had that kind of stuff.
peace
Melatonin never enhanced my dream state, nor did valarien root. B-6 just kept me up all night (I used it because it was recommended in a book to increase dream memory and lucidity). If you take a combo, however, I have had no experience. I would be willing to try it though.
Melatonin has helped me sleep for a long time. Valarian root just rests me. I will check out erowid though. I didn't know they had that kind of stuff.
peace
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Melatonin
Original post: Nalyd23
I had to use melatonin for awhile. I live in a house that I have never been able to get a good night's sleep in for whatever the reason. I used melaton for about 6 months a few years ago and it does help you sleep restfully without waking up every hour or half hour. It doesn't put you to sleep though but you do feel it's effects. I have tried it a few times since then without it working like it did then. There was a melatonin spray that was pulled off the shelf for some reason, at least I can't find it in my area anymore. You sprayed in under your tongue like Binacca and it tasted like mint and worked. Matter of fact, the melatonin pills I took then were little mint flavored tablets that you disolved under your tongue and worked nicely (I will get to what I mean there in a second). The newer ones that you swallow don't seem to do anything and that is why I quit using melatonin altogether, I don't even think the new stuff is melatonin. I think they are nothing but placebo-type pills. If you have taken melatonin since 1999 you may not notice any effects. I will add that melatonin is not addictive at all as far as I can tell. After you use it for about a week you don't really need it. When I say I used it for about six months it was just off and on depending on how I messed up my then sleep cycles from staying up all night and working the next day kind of thing. Now as for those vivid dreams and "working nicely", YES. The stuff I took did produce very vivid dreams but the new stuff does nothing. The very first thing I noticed about it was the dreams. The very first time I took it, I'll never forget this, I had dozed off on the floor and immediately started dreaming. In the dream I was looking down at a toilet with the lid closed. Upon opening the lid it was revealed that the toilet was a giant clenched fist. At that moment I opened I woke up and opening my eyes my dream dissolved into me actually staring at my own clenched fist right in front of my face. Very strange.
I knew then that this melatonin stuff was a curious little excursion into the weird. However, I think using it too much may lead to your pineal gland not being able to produce enough on it's own, but that is just my opinion and has no basis in any scientific study just a logical conclusion to anything your body becomes dependent on.
EDIT : I might add that I came across melatonin in the fashion you have mentioned above strangeDivine. I did want to manipulate dream states but at the same time it helped with regulating sleep patterns. Melatonin is the only substance I have ever used to induce any kind of dreams or hallucinations.
I had to use melatonin for awhile. I live in a house that I have never been able to get a good night's sleep in for whatever the reason. I used melaton for about 6 months a few years ago and it does help you sleep restfully without waking up every hour or half hour. It doesn't put you to sleep though but you do feel it's effects. I have tried it a few times since then without it working like it did then. There was a melatonin spray that was pulled off the shelf for some reason, at least I can't find it in my area anymore. You sprayed in under your tongue like Binacca and it tasted like mint and worked. Matter of fact, the melatonin pills I took then were little mint flavored tablets that you disolved under your tongue and worked nicely (I will get to what I mean there in a second). The newer ones that you swallow don't seem to do anything and that is why I quit using melatonin altogether, I don't even think the new stuff is melatonin. I think they are nothing but placebo-type pills. If you have taken melatonin since 1999 you may not notice any effects. I will add that melatonin is not addictive at all as far as I can tell. After you use it for about a week you don't really need it. When I say I used it for about six months it was just off and on depending on how I messed up my then sleep cycles from staying up all night and working the next day kind of thing. Now as for those vivid dreams and "working nicely", YES. The stuff I took did produce very vivid dreams but the new stuff does nothing. The very first thing I noticed about it was the dreams. The very first time I took it, I'll never forget this, I had dozed off on the floor and immediately started dreaming. In the dream I was looking down at a toilet with the lid closed. Upon opening the lid it was revealed that the toilet was a giant clenched fist. At that moment I opened I woke up and opening my eyes my dream dissolved into me actually staring at my own clenched fist right in front of my face. Very strange.
I knew then that this melatonin stuff was a curious little excursion into the weird. However, I think using it too much may lead to your pineal gland not being able to produce enough on it's own, but that is just my opinion and has no basis in any scientific study just a logical conclusion to anything your body becomes dependent on.EDIT : I might add that I came across melatonin in the fashion you have mentioned above strangeDivine. I did want to manipulate dream states but at the same time it helped with regulating sleep patterns. Melatonin is the only substance I have ever used to induce any kind of dreams or hallucinations.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Melatonin
Original post: strangeDivine
About your clenched fist experience: that has happened to me serveral times as well. Often when I experience sleep paralysis, ordinary objects in the room appear as fully animated, realistic "hallucinations." I can't tell you how frightened I was once when I awoke to a tall, skinny alien with bulging eyes choking me whilst I lay totally paralyzed. But slowly, the creature morphed into the ceiling fan above my bed. I was left lying there, panicked, staring at a ceiling fan! I had taken valerian before going to bed that night, but similar things have happened without the use of chemical intervention.
The most profound for me was a lucid dream of a street scene in London (I've never actually been to London). It was "significant" for various reasons that I won't go into here, but it was possibly the most detailed and realistic dream I have ever had. Even the pavement of the street was incredibly rich. The dream sequence ended with me glancing at the pavement, and seeing someone flick a cigarette butt onto the ground. As the cigarette hit the groud, two hot red ashes lay beside it. I awoke to find myself floating outside of my body, yet the scene was somehow superimposed over my room. The pavement scene slowly disappeared and the two burning embers became the lights on my stereo.
In the telling that sounds pretty ordinary, but it seemed very profound at the time!
I've actually been drinking a lot of orange juice lately because it is high in vitamin D. Although some of my ancestors were from Northern Europe and the British Isles, most of my were Mediterraneanites and some were even the original native inhabitants of the southern US. So, I suppose most of my ancestors were from a southerly climate... Though I can't say that we are suffering from a lack of sun here in Louisiana. :neutral:It's probably safer to take a vitamin D suppliment, especially if your ancestors come from a southerly climate and you don't get enough exposure to the sun where your at now...
I have found that plenty of sleep is likely to ensure lucid dreaming for me. It definitely does play a big role.Your mind will feel over rested then and want to return to a waking level of consciousness, while your body still sleeps.
I've only ever found stuff like that by using the search function. If you search for melatonin, it will take you to the "melatonin vault." There are all sorts or smaller "vaults" that aren't linked to on the main page.I will check out erowid though. I didn't know they had that kind of stuff.
I hope that's not the case and I hope that I can find something effective. I should add that my friend lives in Ukraine, so it is quite possible that there are totally different melatonin products available on the Ukranian market.The newer ones that you swallow don't seem to do anything and that is why I quit using melatonin altogether, I don't even think the new stuff is melatonin.
About your clenched fist experience: that has happened to me serveral times as well. Often when I experience sleep paralysis, ordinary objects in the room appear as fully animated, realistic "hallucinations." I can't tell you how frightened I was once when I awoke to a tall, skinny alien with bulging eyes choking me whilst I lay totally paralyzed. But slowly, the creature morphed into the ceiling fan above my bed. I was left lying there, panicked, staring at a ceiling fan! I had taken valerian before going to bed that night, but similar things have happened without the use of chemical intervention.
The most profound for me was a lucid dream of a street scene in London (I've never actually been to London). It was "significant" for various reasons that I won't go into here, but it was possibly the most detailed and realistic dream I have ever had. Even the pavement of the street was incredibly rich. The dream sequence ended with me glancing at the pavement, and seeing someone flick a cigarette butt onto the ground. As the cigarette hit the groud, two hot red ashes lay beside it. I awoke to find myself floating outside of my body, yet the scene was somehow superimposed over my room. The pavement scene slowly disappeared and the two burning embers became the lights on my stereo.
In the telling that sounds pretty ordinary, but it seemed very profound at the time!
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Melatonin
Original post: Ludi
The scientific name for these visions seen in the state between waking and sleep is "hypnogogic hallucinations." They seem completely real and believable. I experienced several figures like melting skeletons looming over my bed one time; on another occasion, I saw string unwinding from the ceiling.ordinary objects in the room appear as fully animated, realistic "hallucinations."
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Melatonin
Original post: strangeDivine
[QUOTE=Ludi]The scientific name for these visions seen in the state between waking and sleep is "hypnogogic hallucinations."[/QUOTE]Yep. I think these experiences raise a lot of questions, though. Western society in general has drawn a very distinct line between the waking state and the dreaming state. These kinds of things always prompt me to re-evaluate what significance this distinction really has, and whether it has any value.
[QUOTE=Ludi]The scientific name for these visions seen in the state between waking and sleep is "hypnogogic hallucinations."[/QUOTE]Yep. I think these experiences raise a lot of questions, though. Western society in general has drawn a very distinct line between the waking state and the dreaming state. These kinds of things always prompt me to re-evaluate what significance this distinction really has, and whether it has any value.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Melatonin
Original post: Sarx
As far as induction of lucid states
DMAE or dimethylaminoethanol or a number of other 'brian enhancing' cholinergic drugs wiill do it- but only on a temporary basis. The induction effect stops after a few days (and is commonly replaced with greater sensitivity to headaches) (some info at http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/s ... 23,00.html)
A better bet- commit to a meditation discipline and entry into controled lucid states (both in dreaming and deep sleep phases) will happen of it's own accord.
As far as induction of lucid states
DMAE or dimethylaminoethanol or a number of other 'brian enhancing' cholinergic drugs wiill do it- but only on a temporary basis. The induction effect stops after a few days (and is commonly replaced with greater sensitivity to headaches) (some info at http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/s ... 23,00.html)
A better bet- commit to a meditation discipline and entry into controled lucid states (both in dreaming and deep sleep phases) will happen of it's own accord.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Melatonin
Original post: Ludi
It's interesting that anticholinergic drugs induce hallucinations, which seem like dreaming while awake, and cholinergic drugs induce lucid dreaming, which seems like waking while in a dream!
I'm going to try to do some research into cholinergic herbs.
The "normal" brain ordinarily operates in beta or alpha brainwave frequency (hope I'm remembering this right) during day to day activities. Deep meditation/trance takes the brain into delta, which is a sleep state. I think there is some value in ackowledging these differences, which have been observed, but we can also open ourselves to the idea that waking and dreaming are but different experiences of life. I experience Dreamworld as being as important as Meatworld, myself. I would like to learn how to experience Dreamworld consciously.These kinds of things always prompt me to re-evaluate what significance this distinction really has, and whether it has any value.
It's interesting that anticholinergic drugs induce hallucinations, which seem like dreaming while awake, and cholinergic drugs induce lucid dreaming, which seems like waking while in a dream!
I'm going to try to do some research into cholinergic herbs.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Melatonin
Original post: strangeDivine
That's basically what I was saying. I wasn't necessarily saying that they're not different (I'm not saying that they are, either), I was simply questioning the value of labeling something "real" or "not-real," "important," or "not important" based on the state of mind we are in when the experience takes place. I try not to assume that my waking life is more "real" simply because I perceive it has having more continuity, or what have you. That's a rather relative standard.Ludi wrote: I think there is some value in ackowledging these differences, which have been observed, but we can also open ourselves to the idea that waking and dreaming are but different experiences of life. I experience Dreamworld as being as important as Meatworld, myself.
Definitely keep us posted on that. I think this area of consciousness exploration warrants more attention.It's interesting that anticholinergic drugs induce hallucinations, which seem like dreaming while awake, and cholinergic drugs induce lucid dreaming, which seems like waking while in a dream!
I'm going to try to do some research into cholinergic herbs.