Why your magick does not work

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Original post: Bird of Hermes

It is not my intention for this post to offend anyone in the occult community but there is something I must get off my chest and now seems as good as any time to do so. Before I do that however I would like to give a little background on myself as to where I stand in the world of all things occult.

I have been involved in the occult/metaphysics community online for a long time under various names and at various forums over the years and have seen everything from the explosion of the Radki/Psionic kids to the â??I evoke demons for everythingâ?Â

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Venefica

Now having said all of this I will tell you that I do believe and have seen real objective magick at work, and I am a practitioner of the Hermetic arts. The point of this post is to get it across to people that in order to work magick of any real worth that isn't a subjective delusion you must go through some training that requires hard work and develops the will.

Thank you Captain Obvious you have saved the world again. Yes off course Magick do require training, but various forms of magick and various goals requires various amount of training to be able to reach. Not all have to work with Hermetics or other Ceremonial magick for some simpler systems work far better and that is a matter of personal preference.

This is a disease that has been running rampant in the magickal community for far to long, I tire quickly of all the 16-20 year old people who haven't even been training for a solid year, claiming that they astral project, and do successful evocations.

I begun to Astral Project when 11 or so with no training, it happened spontaneously and scared the hell out of me. Quite a few pepole have experienced the same.

I have a friend who around five months ago if memory serves me correctly, was struggling to make a bill payment, he did what most magicians would do when money is tight and performed a ritual to get money returned from a mutual friend of ours so he could pay the money back by the end of the month.

Well a week later our friend did in fact show up and return the money owed, and my friend was so happy that his ritual had worked that he didn't bother questioning why the money was returned at such an opportune time, so I did it for him.

It turns out our friend had just gotten a raise at work and had decided that it was the appropriate time to pay a longstanding debt. Now the trap of not questioning why certain things happened is one that many people fall into, and one that can hamper the development of the serious aspirant.

And who know if the raise came due to the magick, or of the friend deciding it was time came from the magick. What do you expect of "real" magick? For the money just to materialize.? This is the way magick usually work, it affect coincidences and lay out the path of least resistance for the desired goal to come to the magician, usually through mundane means. If the magician want a car, then a spell will not make the car rain from the sky, it will lead the magician to a job so he can buy his own car, or lead him to get a friend that is a good mechanic and then find a used fixer upper for a cheap price that the friend can fix, that is how magick usually work and it is impossible to know if the things that happened would have happened if one had not done the spell. There is a fair bit of faith involved in magick.

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Original post: Bird of Hermes

Thank you Captain Obvious you have saved the world again. Yes off course Magick do require training, but various forms of magick and various goals requires various amount of training to be able to reach. Not all have to work with Hermetics or other Ceremonial magick for some simpler systems work far better and that is a matter of personal preference.

You completely missed the point of what I was saying, the point isn't that everyone has to practice Hermetics or Ceremonial Magick. Had you read the entire thing you would not have missed what I said about systems in and of themselves being pointless to a trained magician.

Do yourself a favor and actually read what people post before responding with what seems to be some attempt at appearing smarmy that seems so prevalent in people these days.

Also simple doesn't always mean easy, which is what a fair amount of people translate it into.

And who know if the raise came due to the magick, or of the friend deciding it was time came from the magick. What do you expect of "real" magick? For the money just to materialize.? This is the way magick usually work, it affect coincidences and lay out the path of least resistance for the desired goal to come to the magician, usually through mundane means. If the magician want a car, then a spell will not make the car rain from the sky, it will lead the magician to a job so he can buy his own car, or lead him to get a friend that is a good mechanic and then find a used fixer upper for a cheap price that the friend can fix, that is how magick usually work and it is impossible to know if the things that happened would have happened if one had not done the spell. There is a fair bit of faith involved in magick.

Again had you read what was posted you would see that I least of all would expect anything to just materialize, this is my entire point. Look people can believe anything they want to believe and I hardly begrudge anyone for their choices.

And how do I know he got his raise and it had nothing to do with magick? because he had gotten his raise the week before my friend even did the ritual that's how I know.

This post was not meant to come off sounding arrogant or for me to boost myself up as a saviour of anything. The initial post was aimed at people who are beginning to intermediate who may have doubts about whether or not they are actually accomplishing anything.

There are far to many books on magick in general as I said in my original post that make things seem like a walk in the park and that no effort will need be expended on the part of the aspirant.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: invisimage

[QUOTE=Bird of Hermes;363341]
And how do I know he got his raise and it had nothing to do with magick? because he had gotten his raise the week before my friend even did the ritual that's how I know.[/QUOTE]So in this case the ritual failed? But if you did not know the raise came before the magick he would be deluding himself he succeeded? But then again his rite may have 'reminded' his friend of the debt?

My point is how does one ever know for sure it was result of magick and not some co incidence or self delusion? You said you had seen objective results. What were these?

No offence intended. Thanks for your attention

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Bird of Hermes

So in this case the ritual failed? But if you did not know the raise came before the magick he would be deluding himself he succeeded? But then again his rite may have 'reminded' his friend of the debt?

My point is how does one ever know for sure it was result of magick and not some co incidence or self delusion? You said you had seen objective results. What were these?

No offence intended. Thanks for your attention

If I did not have access to that information, then I would not know, however that is not relevant to the situation because I do have the information.

The things I have witnessed were nothing grandiose at least in comparison to what a few people claim but I cannot go into any detail about them due to being oathbound.

However even if such were not the case I don't want to turn this into a thread about the things I have seen or done as it is purely anecdotal from an outsiders point of view.

What I really want to get out of any interaction here is to help people avoid deluding themselves, magickal practice can be tested and verified, the reason I believe this doesn't happen is that few people are actually willing to spend the years of training necessary.

I see that all of the time on various occult forums "x system will not work for me because it just requires to much of a commitment in terms of time" basically this is the same as saying that one wishes win a gold medal in the olympics swimming competition after only having swam twice in your life.

Instead what tends to happen is a slow process of delusion wherein the aspirant begins by convincing themselves that "everything is permitted and nothing is true" followed by picking and choosing as if the practice of magick were some smorgasbord of "I'll do it all my way and it will work just as well!"

The problem is, as Bardon expresses in Initiation Into Hermetics that many students will never actually start with the basics of will power devlopment.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: koolbear05

â??This is a disease that has been running rampant in the magickal community for far to long, I tire quickly of all the 16-20 year old people who haven't even been training for a solid year, claiming that they astral project, and do successful evocations.â?Â

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Bird of Hermes

This simple ignorant statement ruin the validity your whole post of me personally.

Admittedly a quick generalization on my part, but you have to understand I have seen this scenario many times, perhaps you would like to elaborate on what about my statement was ignorant? If you would grace me with a contribution as opposed to your meaningless disdain, understand I am not seeking your approval or anyone elses.

The internet being what it is has a tendency to make people project what they think onto a post while they read it, again I am stating that I didn't mean to come off arrogant or superior in anyway, what I would genuinely want to see happen in the magickal community is to see people question themselves and start attempting to test what they practice.

It is just far to easy to attribute every general good thing that happens to someone as being the result of a successful magickal operation.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: invisimage

[QUOTE=Bird of Hermes;363361]If I did not have access to that information, then I would not know, however that is not relevant to the situation because I do have the information..[/QUOTE]It is relevant because if you did not know there would be no way of knowing your friends work failed, if it did

Also you will not find many real occultists on the internet. The real adepts will not speak on forums

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Bird of Hermes

It is relevant because if you did not know there would be no way of knowing your friends work failed, if it did

It's not relevant because that circumstance does not exist in this case, if it did exist then you would have a point, but it does not so there is nothing left to look at using my example.

It's akin to me saying I got paid today and you saying "But what if you hadn't?" well then I wouldn't have gotten paid it's that simple.

Honestly I am surprised that there hasn't really been any positive feedback to the thread so far, is it the title? is it me? or am I stepping on sensitive toes?

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Please

I agree that differentiating between coincidence and "magick" is very important in developing one's skills. Jumping to conclusions and assuming things does seem the likely way to fall into delusion.

The first sigil I've ever created (a couple of months ago) "worked" in a matter of days. Ethical or not, my statement of intent had something to do with a certain person loving me. After knowing this person for over a year, days later after my sigil was created, this person for the first time proclaimed her "love" for me. It came straight out of the blue as well. It was a blunt "I love you". Kinda shocked me. Initially I didn't even think about the friggin sigil. I was too stoked that she was even remotely interested in me. Hours later I remembered the sigil and partially attributed what happened to its creation. It could have been coincidence though. I don't really care.

Skepticism is good. If things really are working then being a skeptic is a fool proof way to be sure. This doesn't mean denying results, but having a further examination of them when they do come. Even when things seem to move out of their own accord (blankets in my room blowing around with literally no air flowing into the room) I still try to rationalize what I am perceiving. I've got to say that the blanket thing was weird though. In a sealed room with absolutely no breeze, blankets shouldn't move the way they moved that night. It freaked the hell out of me.

Like someone stated in this thread, various types of magick and various types of things can be achieved with different amounts of willpower. Creating sigils, believe it or not, is effective at accomplishing certain things. Telekinesis, Levitation, Evoking deities - all that other stuff may take a bit more time. I have to say that sometimes great results can be achieved simply by luck, or bad luck for that matter.

Sometimes doing certain things is bound to get results, whether they are the results you wished for varies from person to person.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Venefica

Do yourself a favor and actually read what people post before responding with what seems to be some attempt at appearing smarmy that seems so prevalent in people these days.

I did read your entire post. I do not know if it was that I read what you posted wrong, or you expressing yourself poorly, I suspect a bit of both. Oh and do yourself a favor and develop a sense of humor. The Captain Obvious comment is a common internet saying when pepole make a statement that well, are so obvious it should go without saying, it is a joke, not an insult.

And how do I know he got his raise and it had nothing to do with magick? because he had gotten his raise the week before my friend even did the ritual that's how I know.

Many, myself included have experienced the result coming before the spell was cast, there are whole treads on it on this forum, read up on it.

What I really want to get out of any interaction here is to help people avoid deluding themselves, magickal practice can be tested and verified, the reason I believe this doesn't happen is that few people are actually willing to spend the years of training necessary.

Most magick can not be verified. No matter how huge a coincidence it is, there is always the chance that it would have happened had no spells been cast. I do not think most occultist delude themself. Most are serious and have their moments of doubt. You seam to like to think that you are one of the very few serious ones, one do not feel so special do one when one realize that there are thousands of pepole that get results and take the art very seriously. Sure we have a few pepole in here now and again that want magick but do not want to work for it, but the wast majority are willing to do the work and is doing it or they just loose interest and leave the occult shortly after discovering it.

Instead what tends to happen is a slow process of delusion wherein the aspirant begins by convincing themselves that "everything is permitted and nothing is true" followed by picking and choosing as if the practice of magick were some smorgasbord of "I'll do it all my way and it will work just as well!"

So what you are pecking on are Chaotes. What we do not conform to your idea of what magick should be? First of all, being a Chaote and not doing a effort is not the same thing. Yes we do not believe in rigidly following a system, but rather picking and choosing what works best for us, that do not mean we do not do an effort with what we study. Chaos magick is not for everyone, and perhaps it do not fit you. But that do not mean it is not a good practice.

The problem is, as Bardon expresses in Initiation Into Hermetics that many students will never actually start with the basics of will power devlopment.

No imagine that, not everyone follow your hero's opinion on how one should learn magick. Horrible is it not.

â??This is a disease that has been running rampant in the magickal community for far to long, I tire quickly of all the 16-20 year old people who haven't even been training for a solid year, claiming that they astral project, and do successful evocations.â?Â

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Original post: Bird of Hermes

I did read your entire post. I do not know if it was that I read what you posted wrong, or you expressing yourself poorly, I suspect a bit of both.

It's clear that you didn't read everything.

Many, myself included have experienced the result coming before the spell was cast, there are whole treads on it on this forum, read up on it.

And there are many who would equate it merely to wishful thinking, there are also threads about making yourself a different gender and or giving yourself a bigger penis but that doesn't make them anymore likely to be true just because they are there.

Most magick can not be verified. No matter how huge a coincidence it is, there is always the chance that it would have happened had no spells been cast. I do not think most occultist delude themself. Most are serious and have their moments of doubt. You seam to like to think that you are one of the very few serious ones, one do not feel so special do one when one realize that there are thousands of pepole that get results and take the art very seriously. Sure we have a few pepole in here now and again that want magick but do not want to work for it, but the wast majority are willing to do the work and is doing it or they just loose interest and leave the occult shortly after discovering it.

Magick can easily be verified since a ritual is done with a specific intent, you either get your intended result or you do not, the best way to test your magick is to not be so vague when asking for something as an example be very specific.

You make a lot of assumptions about my character and purpose and they are all based on something other then my statements. I also don't buy that most people who claim to be occultists take it very seriously, not when making some of the claims they make.

So what you are pecking on are Chaotes. What we do not conform to your idea of what magick should be? First of all, being a Chaote and not doing a effort is not the same thing. Yes we do not believe in rigidly following a system, but rather picking and choosing what works best for us, that do not mean we do not do an effort with what we study. Chaos magick is not for everyone, and perhaps it do not fit you. But that do not mean it is not a good practice.

I have no problems with chaotes in general, it's just that statement that "nothing is true, everything is permitted" is very contradictory because by it's very nature it is establishing a truth, in that "nothing is true" although I realize chaotes are somewhat endeared of it, it wasn't a direct attack against them.

No imagine that, not everyone follow your hero's opinion on how one should learn magick. Horrible is it not.

My hero? your being a bit dramatic, although if it came down to his opinion or yours it leaves little in the way of guesswork as to where I would side.

I agree completely.

You would, wouldn't you?

What make your statement ignorant is this. A you assume everyone have the same learning curve and that every system uses as long for learning a certain skill not considering either talent or well anything. B you have gotten hung up on some type of posters on online forums and base a judgment of an entire group on that, and that is ignorance.

I didn't assume anything about anyones "learning curve" I merely asked people to take a step back and question what they do and the supposed results.


Also I am not judging anyone my message was not meant to be taken as a judgment only a bit of advice.

It is you, you come here to this forum a new member no one know and go on insulting Chaos magick and acting all high and mighty telling everyone what they should do in their practice. It irks me, and I suspect it irks other pepole to.

Whether or not I am well known here is irrelevant entirely, as being well known has nothing to do with the ability to have an intelligent conversation. Again you read into the post what you wanted to read in assuming that I was out to insult chaos magicians when I did no such thing.

And again I am not speaking to anyone from a position of superiority, I am not sorry that it irks you, as any irritation you have experienced based on my responses are the direct result of you reading into my posts exactly what you think they mean and nothing more.

I also didn't tell anyone what to do in their practice, I only encouraged a healthy dose of skepticism and nothing more.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Venefica

It's clear that you didn't read everything.

Actually I did. But I guess it is inconceivable for you that you might have expressed yourself in a cumbersome manner, you great magician that come here to give us all advice, surly you write perfectly oh great one.

And there are many who would equate it merely to wishful thinking, there are also threads about making yourself a different gender and or giving yourself a bigger penis but that doesn't make them anymore likely to be true just because they are there.

Actually those treads have allot of good posts on how such things may in some way be possible. But I guess you have not read them, you just have dismissed them out of hand like you do everything that do not fit your idea of what magick should be.

Magick can easily be verified since a ritual is done with a specific intent, you either get your intended result or you do not, the best way to test your magick is to not be so vague when asking for something as an example be very specific.

So when I do a ritual to get 20 dollars and two days later my mother send me 20 dollars as a gift then it could not conceivable be coincidence, she could not have sent those money just of her own accord it had to be magick? I think there is a flaw in your logic around here someplace.

You make a lot of assumptions about my character and purpose and they are all based on something other then my statements. I also don't buy that most people who claim to be occultists take it very seriously, not when making some of the claims they make.

Then either A you have been very unlucky with what occutists you have met or B you are a to arrogant to see the value of those around you. I suspect B to be the truth.

I have no problems with chaotes in general, it's just that statement that "nothing is true, everything is permitted" is very contradictory because by it's very nature it is establishing a truth, in that "nothing is true" although I realize chaotes are somewhat endeared of it, it wasn't a direct attack against them.

Obviously you do not understand the saying at all. Nothing is true, even that statement is not true, it like everything else is just a guideline, a tool for our human minds to try to understand a universe without any boundaries. And even that observation is to limited. Study it and you might be able to speak with a bit more knowledge on the topic.

My hero? your being a bit dramatic, although if it came down to his opinion or yours it leaves little in the way of guesswork as to where I would side.

Your hero, your idol, take your pick, or discard such role models and learn to think for yourself.

You would, wouldn't you?

Yes I do.

I didn't assume anything about anyones "learning curve" I merely asked people to take a step back and question what they do and the supposed results.

No you complained about all the pepole from 16 to 20 that said they could astral project or evoke with under a year of study. I think you need to read your own posts before you complain on how well others have read them.

Also I am not judging anyone my message was not meant to be taken as a judgment only a bit of advice.

Are we not lucky that we have gotten such a wise man to our forum to advice us ignorant fools on how to practice our art. What would we do without your words of infinite wisdom.

Whether or not I am well known here is irrelevant entirely, as being well known has nothing to do with the ability to have an intelligent conversation. Again you read into the post what you wanted to read in assuming that I was out to insult chaos magicians when I did no such thing.

If insulting Chaos magicians was not your goal then you seriously have a problem communicating. And yes it is relevant if you are well known or not, your statements and advice is grandiose, pepole tend to not react to well to such from pepole that have demonstrated no basis for their statements nor gained the community's respect.

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Original post: Magus Habilus

What an EXCELLENT post!

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Venefica

Me or him. If me, then thank you.

Bird of Hermes listen. I have been thinking and while I stand for what I have said. But I could have found a less insulting way to say it. I do not agree with you but I did not need to tear into you. And I am sorry for that.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Please

Hmmm. Venefica makes a pretty strong case. I believe that chaos magick is effective. To me, chaos magick is to the occult world as street smarts is to the real world. Chaos magick involves trial and error, learning from past mistakes, and converting knowledge into wisdom. All of this can be done by the magician alone, and depending on their subjective work ethic and level of self discipline, this path can indeed take them further down the rabbit hole. I think that rigid magickal learning structures can be just as deluded, if not more, than an honest personal approach to occult studies. If we were using conventional schooling and being self taught as a metaphor I would say that chaos magick leans more towards the self taught side of the spectrum. And this is a good thing in my opinion. Teachers in general usually have their own biased interpretations of the material they have learned and can easily project that attitude onto their students. Instead of studying under inflexible conditions I think I'd much rather take a dedicated, yet personal approach to the science and art of causing change in conformity with the will.

While years of training is immensely beneficial, it is not entirely necessary to achieve results. It varies from person to person. Some people are more naturally inclined to magick than others, some have a stronger willpower, others make things happen unintentionally.

The magick world doesn't ask for a resume. 5, 10, or 20 years under your belt is great, but experience with the supernatural is more bound by will than it is time.

EDIT:Also, hostility towards young magicians doesn't exactly help prove your point. Everyone is/was young at some point. We all change and evolve over time.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Venefica

I begun to get results shortly after I begun studying the occult, but off course the more experience I get, the better at it I become. I look at it this way. Magick is an art, like in any art, painting, music and so on first the artist need to learn to master the medium of expression, but once that is done, the key element is the need to create and the need to express one self through art and no amount of study can give you that.

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Original post: AETERNITAS0

[QUOTE=invisimage;363354]So in this case the ritual failed? But if you did not know the raise came before the magick he would be deluding himself he succeeded? But then again his rite may have 'reminded' his friend of the debt?

My point is how does one ever know for sure it was result of magick and not some co incidence or self delusion? You said you had seen objective results. What were these?

No offence intended. Thanks for your attention[/QUOTE]

He did the ritual=the money came. What was supposed to happen? Some major discontinuity in time and space where he just had money where he had not before?


What a dumb ass egotistical thread to start "why YOUR magic doesn't work."

BORING

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Original post: AETERNITAS0

"nothing is true everything is permitted" is SUPPOSED to be a paradox in itself.
Ever heard of Divine Folly?
COME ON! start THINKING magically!

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Raziel.AE

I agree with Bird of Hermes on this one, but (my opinion from now on) I think the main problem is that people simply don't know exactly what can be actually done with magic, sure "nothing is impossible" but magic should be both practical and verifiable, too many today concentrates on a subtle and almost (unless under scrutiny) improvable aspect of magic that it literally weakens them and so "Nothing is true, everything is possible" becomes just a shield and an excuse... Maybe it has something to do with people treating magic more as hobby and not as a serious thing...

And I think most people, or at least many, are either delusional or I must be really untalented with my magic (what is this? envy? =O), I was born amidst it, have my father to teach what I need, access to some obscure texts, can train without anyone disturbing me, I even seen some crazy shit in action and still I have a hard time doing many things, including among those, astral travelling, and I can easily count the times I had 100% success with an evocation.

Also, yes, too many young people saying too much, and exaggerating a lot, that's why I try not to say much, I'm just 18, I know I didn't train as much as I should, and I know my will is not strong as it could and I know I won't change it now because I'm more interested in... other things...

Magic is fun and all that, but people need to be more grounded about theirs if they want any real power...


p.s. I believe in an retroactive aspect of any action, so I won't say if it was magic or not your friend getting the money =P

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Original post: Jenfucius

[QUOTE=Bird of Hermes;363298]....

I have been involved in the occult/metaphysics community online for a long time under various names and at various forums over the years and have seen everything from the explosion of the Radki/Psionic kids to the â??I evoke demons for everythingâ?Â

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Centrix

Two suggestions, Jen:

Start looking into learning formal logical structure (deductive vs. inductive, valid vs. invalid deduction, sound vs. unsound arguments, etc.).

Also, study Ayn Rand's philosophy, which will help you fine tune your BS detector also.

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Original post: Paschal

Jen:

The issue is belief. You cannot materialize what you do not completely believe. That is a difficult state because it does not involve magnetic concentration but a kind of knowing, soft, acceptance.

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Original post: The Dark Necromancer

Discerning magical forces from coincidence is easier said than done. You, Bird of Hermes, claim to have seen genuine magic that is non-coincidental (but will not give us a description which makes it somewhat difficult for me to set an example), but how do you tell the difference when witnessing this genuine magic?

Did you see the practitioner shoot fire from his fingertips? This is not your run of the mill everyday feat but is it magic or coincidentally 'ball lightning'? Obviously a far stretch but to take it all back down to size is magic not conforming the laws of nature to one's will? Therefore, should a spell grant the witch's desires is that not magic despite the seemingly non-magical or coincidental mechanics that came into place for the desired result to come to pass? Instead of your friend barging down the mutual friend's door and getting his money he resorted to a spell and so it came to pass that the objective was obtained. You seem so focused on supernatural conjurings that you are overlooking just how subtle magic can be.

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Original post: Ice Flower

Bird of Hermes, I want to know what your motivation is for even posting such a very forward opinion in a place where you are new and no one know you yet. It is no wonder you step on a few toes.

You're making presumptions about individuals here that you don't know. It's rude, to be frank.