no, i'm not familiar with that novel or author. it's more of a quantum physics type idea, although your author may or may not have pulled from such ideas.EtuMalku;372671 wrote:This is not the virtual world from Neal Stephenson's 1992 science fiction novel Snow Crash I hope?
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Original post: astral projectionist
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Original post: Aurum
If say, there was a push-pull of two disctinct energies, and these energies balanced each other and are equally present, then the suggestion that light energy draws in other light energy could very well mean that dark energy would fall into dark...At least if there was a notion that they were actually balanced.
In the context of God and human beings, unification is not aimed towards certain people, but in all human beings.
bellenigma;372669 wrote:The goal is to exist. One must do what it takes to be able to live. I am mostly refering to spiritual survival though. The astral is filled with entities that kill each other to live. It is your energy that they are after. Those dark try to not be the victim in these situations. While you are still living in the physical plane, this gives you time to develop your psychic abilities and spirituality so that you can Individuate or escape the reincarnation cycle, and furthermore survive in the astral. I have been told that you will know when you are capable of Individuating.
You lose your free-will when you join god, therefore your "self". God or heaven is this global consciousness made up of light energy, it accumulates souls and each soul just becomes another countless vote as part of that "whole". They become "one".
When I speak of Individuality, I mean our core essence, our internal awareness, and our free-will.
Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting what you've said, but people are already individuals on the physical plane. And if someone was to be light in the essence as you have said, then darkness cannot equate with individuality. And individuality can't equate with isolation because we are in constant contact with people and energies.It is an energy equally present as light. The push and pull of both energies, having them in opposition of each other eternally is what makes Manifest be.
If say, there was a push-pull of two disctinct energies, and these energies balanced each other and are equally present, then the suggestion that light energy draws in other light energy could very well mean that dark energy would fall into dark...At least if there was a notion that they were actually balanced.
In the context of God and human beings, unification is not aimed towards certain people, but in all human beings.
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Original post: bellenigma
[QUOTE=Aurum;372737]Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting what you've said, but people are already individuals on the physical plane. And if someone was to be light in the essence as you have said, then darkness cannot equate with individuality. And individuality can't equate with isolation because we are in constant contact with people and energies.
If say, there was a push-pull of two disctinct energies, and these energies balanced each other and are equally present, then the suggestion that light energy draws in other light energy could very well mean that dark energy would fall into dark...At least if there was a notion that they were actually balanced.
In the context of God and human beings, unification is not aimed towards certain people, but in all human beings.[/QUOTE]
Sure, on the physical plane everyone is an individual. But for those light this ends when joined with god. And for those dark this ends when spiritual death occurs. I also never said that individuality equates with isolation. In the astral, a spiritual entity can take away enough energy for your energy pattern to be lost for ever which would mean spiritual death. There are other ways your energy pattern can be lost too. Now if you were refering to people and energies on the physical plane, this doesn't apply of course.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "dark energy would fall into dark". So I'm not sure how to respond to this. But they are balanced so maybe.
I disagree. Unification is a light concept. Dark don't need to unify.
[QUOTE=Aurum;372737]Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting what you've said, but people are already individuals on the physical plane. And if someone was to be light in the essence as you have said, then darkness cannot equate with individuality. And individuality can't equate with isolation because we are in constant contact with people and energies.
If say, there was a push-pull of two disctinct energies, and these energies balanced each other and are equally present, then the suggestion that light energy draws in other light energy could very well mean that dark energy would fall into dark...At least if there was a notion that they were actually balanced.
In the context of God and human beings, unification is not aimed towards certain people, but in all human beings.[/QUOTE]
Sure, on the physical plane everyone is an individual. But for those light this ends when joined with god. And for those dark this ends when spiritual death occurs. I also never said that individuality equates with isolation. In the astral, a spiritual entity can take away enough energy for your energy pattern to be lost for ever which would mean spiritual death. There are other ways your energy pattern can be lost too. Now if you were refering to people and energies on the physical plane, this doesn't apply of course.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "dark energy would fall into dark". So I'm not sure how to respond to this. But they are balanced so maybe.
I disagree. Unification is a light concept. Dark don't need to unify.
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Original post: funquie
bellenigma,
I think I agree with "astral projectionist" on this one. I tend to think that I've moved beyond this "Either/Or" mentality. Your "Dark Person" idea is a relatively common POV among those new to the Magickal Arts, especially those coming to it from the "left side" of the tracks...
Chaos Magick was a very interesting little dance in the '80's and '90's, but I think for the most part, it is, as a workable system for radical cultural transformation, used up. Chaos Magick had some FANTASTIC ideas, but for a number of reasons, many of it's most powerful tools and concepts have been rendered useless or have been made too charged (by the propaganda of the "powers that be") to use for anything good.
And so, although many of the ideas and formulae of Chaos Magick may well be a good place to develop one's Magickal skills, it is lacking on several fronts. First, CM, does not really stress discipline, and so many practitioners fall into the trap of thinking they can just "wing it" for ALL their operations, and begin to ignore the world around them.
In today's world, where the major political and economic powers have all adopted occultic technologies to further their interests, and are waging spiritual, economic, and intellectual warfare on the general populace of the planet, we, as Practicing Magickians, need to be keenly aware that there are some pretty BIG operations going on all around us, and many of these ops are specifically designed to enslave, brainwash, and corral the peoples of the world into manageable herds.
You've co-opted the term "left hand path", and are using it to mean something that only you really understand, when this is an established term, used to describe a VERY specific Tantric path that has almost NOTHING to do with your little "Individuated Man becomes God" trip. You are trying to overcome hundreds of years of lexicographical energy by adopting this "buzz word" and slapping your own meaning onto it.
Why?
Are you using the term "Left Hand Path" because of it's shock value? Are you using it to try and "liberate" it from a previously oppressive preconception (like urban blacks using the word "nigger", or militant lesbians using the word "dyke"?) Are you just not that thoughtful and creative in your choice of terminologies, and thought this term sounded cool, spooky, and "magickal"?
I'd suggest you come up with a new, completely different, andunique term to describe your own path. I also suggest you do a little more research, because I believe you will find that someone else has already come up with a name for this general group of beliefs, and already has a name for it...
I'm not trying to slam you or flame you, bellenigma. I like your enthusiasm, and your posts are often very thought-provoking and stimulating. The fact that you even know who Phil Hine is puts you pretty high up on my list, in general. You go, girl!!!
But please don't fall into the Chaos Magick trap where you think that just because you had a thought pop into your head while you were doing a ritual, it must be original. The most important lesson that I have learned in my education (Magickal AND academic) is that "new music" is terribly rare--almost EVERYTHING is derivative. And the less you know about a subject, the more likely you are to re-invent the wheel.
Keep searching. Keep doing Rituals. Keep up your Daily Practice. Discuss your ideas with people you trust. But don't let your ego get too big, and don't EVER take yourself too seriously.
And ALWAYS look outside. There are some big things going on out there in the world. In fact, the most overt Occultic operation of the last century is being covered daily right now on CNN...
What, did you think that the NYSE closed down 777 points last Monday just by pure coincidence? No, folks, we're seeing some VERY high-level Magickal operations here. They are literally creating a New World. We're wanking around with silly little operations like evoking goddesses to help with our divinations, and worrying about our personal individuation, but these "big boys" are literally reshaping the World into their perfect little New World Order, where only the "high priests" have all the power and wealth, and 98% of the population exits ONLY to serve...
Most of the Magickal workings of most "occultists", or witches, or covens, or Magickians or whatever, are mere self-indulgant wanking compared to what these folks are pulling off. As evil and repulsive as it is, you've gotta give these evil bastards props. They DEFINITELY have their Magickal ducks in a tight little row...
You want to make a real difference as a Chaos Mage, Bellenigma? Start sigilizing every piece of currency (paper money) that you touch, with a sigil to prevent control of the currency by the Central Bankers. Now THAT would be some REAL magick...
bellenigma,
I think I agree with "astral projectionist" on this one. I tend to think that I've moved beyond this "Either/Or" mentality. Your "Dark Person" idea is a relatively common POV among those new to the Magickal Arts, especially those coming to it from the "left side" of the tracks...
Chaos Magick was a very interesting little dance in the '80's and '90's, but I think for the most part, it is, as a workable system for radical cultural transformation, used up. Chaos Magick had some FANTASTIC ideas, but for a number of reasons, many of it's most powerful tools and concepts have been rendered useless or have been made too charged (by the propaganda of the "powers that be") to use for anything good.
And so, although many of the ideas and formulae of Chaos Magick may well be a good place to develop one's Magickal skills, it is lacking on several fronts. First, CM, does not really stress discipline, and so many practitioners fall into the trap of thinking they can just "wing it" for ALL their operations, and begin to ignore the world around them.
In today's world, where the major political and economic powers have all adopted occultic technologies to further their interests, and are waging spiritual, economic, and intellectual warfare on the general populace of the planet, we, as Practicing Magickians, need to be keenly aware that there are some pretty BIG operations going on all around us, and many of these ops are specifically designed to enslave, brainwash, and corral the peoples of the world into manageable herds.
You've co-opted the term "left hand path", and are using it to mean something that only you really understand, when this is an established term, used to describe a VERY specific Tantric path that has almost NOTHING to do with your little "Individuated Man becomes God" trip. You are trying to overcome hundreds of years of lexicographical energy by adopting this "buzz word" and slapping your own meaning onto it.
Why?
Are you using the term "Left Hand Path" because of it's shock value? Are you using it to try and "liberate" it from a previously oppressive preconception (like urban blacks using the word "nigger", or militant lesbians using the word "dyke"?) Are you just not that thoughtful and creative in your choice of terminologies, and thought this term sounded cool, spooky, and "magickal"?
I'd suggest you come up with a new, completely different, andunique term to describe your own path. I also suggest you do a little more research, because I believe you will find that someone else has already come up with a name for this general group of beliefs, and already has a name for it...
I'm not trying to slam you or flame you, bellenigma. I like your enthusiasm, and your posts are often very thought-provoking and stimulating. The fact that you even know who Phil Hine is puts you pretty high up on my list, in general. You go, girl!!!
But please don't fall into the Chaos Magick trap where you think that just because you had a thought pop into your head while you were doing a ritual, it must be original. The most important lesson that I have learned in my education (Magickal AND academic) is that "new music" is terribly rare--almost EVERYTHING is derivative. And the less you know about a subject, the more likely you are to re-invent the wheel.
Keep searching. Keep doing Rituals. Keep up your Daily Practice. Discuss your ideas with people you trust. But don't let your ego get too big, and don't EVER take yourself too seriously.
And ALWAYS look outside. There are some big things going on out there in the world. In fact, the most overt Occultic operation of the last century is being covered daily right now on CNN...
What, did you think that the NYSE closed down 777 points last Monday just by pure coincidence? No, folks, we're seeing some VERY high-level Magickal operations here. They are literally creating a New World. We're wanking around with silly little operations like evoking goddesses to help with our divinations, and worrying about our personal individuation, but these "big boys" are literally reshaping the World into their perfect little New World Order, where only the "high priests" have all the power and wealth, and 98% of the population exits ONLY to serve...
Most of the Magickal workings of most "occultists", or witches, or covens, or Magickians or whatever, are mere self-indulgant wanking compared to what these folks are pulling off. As evil and repulsive as it is, you've gotta give these evil bastards props. They DEFINITELY have their Magickal ducks in a tight little row...
You want to make a real difference as a Chaos Mage, Bellenigma? Start sigilizing every piece of currency (paper money) that you touch, with a sigil to prevent control of the currency by the Central Bankers. Now THAT would be some REAL magick...
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Original post: bellenigma
funquie,
What the hell are you talking about? I think you've mistaken me for somebody else. I'm no Chaos Mage. I don't even know the basics of what chaos magic is. And Phil Hine who??? Yeah, I think you're slaming me and flaming me. So I would much appreciate that you don't speak to me again. You obviously didn't read my posts.
funquie,
What the hell are you talking about? I think you've mistaken me for somebody else. I'm no Chaos Mage. I don't even know the basics of what chaos magic is. And Phil Hine who??? Yeah, I think you're slaming me and flaming me. So I would much appreciate that you don't speak to me again. You obviously didn't read my posts.
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Original post: Aurum
[QUOTE=bellenigma;372837]Sure, on the physical plane everyone is an individual. But for those light this ends when joined with god. And for those dark this ends when spiritual death occurs. I also never said that individuality equates with isolation. In the astral, a spiritual entity can take away enough energy for your energy pattern to be lost for ever which would mean spiritual death. There are other ways your energy pattern can be lost too. Now if you were refering to people and energies on the physical plane, this doesn't apply of course.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "dark energy would fall into dark". So I'm not sure how to respond to this. But they are balanced so maybe.
I disagree. Unification is a light concept. Dark don't need to unify.[/QUOTE]
If someone believes that they leave their identity when they unify, then that implies individuality equates with isolation, which it doesn't. Also some people who believe in reincarnation believe that they reunify with God in a cycle, and yet they've retained their individuality. Moreover if someone believed in reincarnation, how many lifetimes will take on Earth? 100 lifetimes? 10,000? How are you going to individualise yourself compared to someone who's had 10,000 lifetimes of actual spiritual development? Why do you think darkness cannot unify if it is an energy? If light is the unifying energy then wouldn't it be stronger and thus predominant?
[QUOTE=bellenigma;372837]Sure, on the physical plane everyone is an individual. But for those light this ends when joined with god. And for those dark this ends when spiritual death occurs. I also never said that individuality equates with isolation. In the astral, a spiritual entity can take away enough energy for your energy pattern to be lost for ever which would mean spiritual death. There are other ways your energy pattern can be lost too. Now if you were refering to people and energies on the physical plane, this doesn't apply of course.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "dark energy would fall into dark". So I'm not sure how to respond to this. But they are balanced so maybe.
I disagree. Unification is a light concept. Dark don't need to unify.[/QUOTE]
If someone believes that they leave their identity when they unify, then that implies individuality equates with isolation, which it doesn't. Also some people who believe in reincarnation believe that they reunify with God in a cycle, and yet they've retained their individuality. Moreover if someone believed in reincarnation, how many lifetimes will take on Earth? 100 lifetimes? 10,000? How are you going to individualise yourself compared to someone who's had 10,000 lifetimes of actual spiritual development? Why do you think darkness cannot unify if it is an energy? If light is the unifying energy then wouldn't it be stronger and thus predominant?
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Original post: bellenigma
[QUOTE=Aurum;373036]If someone believes that they leave their identity when they unify, then that implies individuality equates with isolation, which it doesn't. Also some people who believe in reincarnation believe that they reunify with God in a cycle, and yet they've retained their individuality. Moreover if someone believed in reincarnation, how many lifetimes will take on Earth? 100 lifetimes? 10,000? How are you going to individualise yourself compared to someone who's had 10,000 lifetimes of actual spiritual development? Why do you think darkness cannot unify if it is an energy? If light is the unifying energy then wouldn't it be stronger and thus predominant?[/QUOTE]
Lol It can't be predominant if dark energy is a seperating energy.
Let me try and explain once more. On the physical plane, those light search for togetherness. After physical death, the light soul if not reincarnated joins "god". When the soul is overwhelmed by so much light energy, the inner composition of the soul is lost. Much like a drop of water in a pool. That drop of water will never be the same drop of water once it joins the pool of water. It has lost it's individuality. The dark does not seek to unify, so it doesn't really have a god to be accumulated into. Instead, the dark soul will try to escape the reincarnation cycle by psychic and spiritual development so that one may sustain itself in the astral. As to your question to how many lifetimes. In the case of the light, god decides when a soul is accepted in the "whole".
[QUOTE=Aurum;373036]If someone believes that they leave their identity when they unify, then that implies individuality equates with isolation, which it doesn't. Also some people who believe in reincarnation believe that they reunify with God in a cycle, and yet they've retained their individuality. Moreover if someone believed in reincarnation, how many lifetimes will take on Earth? 100 lifetimes? 10,000? How are you going to individualise yourself compared to someone who's had 10,000 lifetimes of actual spiritual development? Why do you think darkness cannot unify if it is an energy? If light is the unifying energy then wouldn't it be stronger and thus predominant?[/QUOTE]
Lol It can't be predominant if dark energy is a seperating energy.
Let me try and explain once more. On the physical plane, those light search for togetherness. After physical death, the light soul if not reincarnated joins "god". When the soul is overwhelmed by so much light energy, the inner composition of the soul is lost. Much like a drop of water in a pool. That drop of water will never be the same drop of water once it joins the pool of water. It has lost it's individuality. The dark does not seek to unify, so it doesn't really have a god to be accumulated into. Instead, the dark soul will try to escape the reincarnation cycle by psychic and spiritual development so that one may sustain itself in the astral. As to your question to how many lifetimes. In the case of the light, god decides when a soul is accepted in the "whole".
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Original post: Marquise De Sade
Interesting, and well thought out post bellenigma. I haven't read the other posts so I can't participate in any discussion. I will be posting my opinions later.
But I did want to give you congrats on your efforts.
Interesting, and well thought out post bellenigma. I haven't read the other posts so I can't participate in any discussion. I will be posting my opinions later.
But I did want to give you congrats on your efforts.
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Original post: Aurum
This doesn't sound right to me. Because we would have to of come out of the ocean or "pool" originally and we have a sense of individuality. A composition would have to of arisen from out of the ocean. It's not combatable to talk about manifestation being made of both dark and light and then suddenly be exclusive from God only from a "turn of card" when He is supposed to be the Father of our and all fellow's manifestation in the first place. What do you believe is spiritual development?
This doesn't sound right to me. Because we would have to of come out of the ocean or "pool" originally and we have a sense of individuality. A composition would have to of arisen from out of the ocean. It's not combatable to talk about manifestation being made of both dark and light and then suddenly be exclusive from God only from a "turn of card" when He is supposed to be the Father of our and all fellow's manifestation in the first place. What do you believe is spiritual development?
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Original post: funquie
[QUOTE=bellenigma;373022]funquie,
What the hell are you talking about? I think you've mistaken me for somebody else. [/QUOTE]
Oops. You are correct. Apparently I remembered a tag in someone else's profile about Phil Hine or something when I was reading through this thread. Sorry about the Chaos Magick link--you are right, I was mistaken.
[QUOTE=bellenigma;373022]I'm no Chaos Mage. I don't even know the basics of what chaos magic is. And Phil Hine who??? Yeah, I think you're slaming me and flaming me. So I would much appreciate that you don't speak to me again. You obviously didn't read my posts.[/QUOTE]
Actually I read the entire thread, and every other thread you've started before I posted this. Like I said, it was simply a case of mistaken identity. Sorry...
But I still hold that your obsession with individuation is just that, an infatuation borne from the enthusiasm of newness to the path. You'll find that the deeper you get into this path of study, the farther you get from the you/me/God mentality of divisive reality, and the closer you drift toward the concept that Quantum Physics is really correct, and EVERYTHING that has ever come in contact in inextricably connected, which inevitably leads to the realization that EVERYTHING is pretty much connected on some level already. There is no you/me/God/tree/star. We're all Star Stuff. Or as Crowley so eloquently put it, decades before anyone even thought of the nature of Quantum Reality, "Every Man and Woman is a Star".
Again, I'm sorry about the case of mistaken identity. Your posts come across as bright, well-reasoned, and thoughtful, and you're definitely enthusiastic in your practice. But you need to chill out a little on this whole "individuation" kick. It's a 40-year-old bit of Pop psychology claptrap that was dicey when it was new, and now it's just stale and dicey...
[QUOTE=bellenigma;373022]funquie,
What the hell are you talking about? I think you've mistaken me for somebody else. [/QUOTE]
Oops. You are correct. Apparently I remembered a tag in someone else's profile about Phil Hine or something when I was reading through this thread. Sorry about the Chaos Magick link--you are right, I was mistaken.
[QUOTE=bellenigma;373022]I'm no Chaos Mage. I don't even know the basics of what chaos magic is. And Phil Hine who??? Yeah, I think you're slaming me and flaming me. So I would much appreciate that you don't speak to me again. You obviously didn't read my posts.[/QUOTE]
Actually I read the entire thread, and every other thread you've started before I posted this. Like I said, it was simply a case of mistaken identity. Sorry...
But I still hold that your obsession with individuation is just that, an infatuation borne from the enthusiasm of newness to the path. You'll find that the deeper you get into this path of study, the farther you get from the you/me/God mentality of divisive reality, and the closer you drift toward the concept that Quantum Physics is really correct, and EVERYTHING that has ever come in contact in inextricably connected, which inevitably leads to the realization that EVERYTHING is pretty much connected on some level already. There is no you/me/God/tree/star. We're all Star Stuff. Or as Crowley so eloquently put it, decades before anyone even thought of the nature of Quantum Reality, "Every Man and Woman is a Star".
Again, I'm sorry about the case of mistaken identity. Your posts come across as bright, well-reasoned, and thoughtful, and you're definitely enthusiastic in your practice. But you need to chill out a little on this whole "individuation" kick. It's a 40-year-old bit of Pop psychology claptrap that was dicey when it was new, and now it's just stale and dicey...
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Original post: destructive_metaphysician
i think your thoughts are pretty good here funquie. because at the least, the focus on individuation is an infatuation with the masses and transgressing their rules - not in destroying their rules. there is a big difference psychologically.
the thing that i am interested in though, bellenigma, since you are being good enough to discuss this at length, is when you talk about individuation in the astral after death and continuation of your astral body...i am wanting to know a little more of your metaphysical view on your various bodies and how they interact. i have a very specific view handed down from franz bardon's lineage that renders this notion either impossible or hellish (hellish because your astral body alone is not something that you want to dwell in absent your higher selves as it causes you to be a spirit zombie). could you please outline how it is possible to maintain individuality? i see it that our physical persona is a projection of our higher self, which has many personas. our higher self is again just one of the many projections of our greater selves, which are eternal, partaking of both unity and individuality. your thoughts intrigued me, and i am wondering if you have thought about this question, because if you have a good answer, i would like to hear it. i am fascinated by spiritual metaphysics.
i think your thoughts are pretty good here funquie. because at the least, the focus on individuation is an infatuation with the masses and transgressing their rules - not in destroying their rules. there is a big difference psychologically.
the thing that i am interested in though, bellenigma, since you are being good enough to discuss this at length, is when you talk about individuation in the astral after death and continuation of your astral body...i am wanting to know a little more of your metaphysical view on your various bodies and how they interact. i have a very specific view handed down from franz bardon's lineage that renders this notion either impossible or hellish (hellish because your astral body alone is not something that you want to dwell in absent your higher selves as it causes you to be a spirit zombie). could you please outline how it is possible to maintain individuality? i see it that our physical persona is a projection of our higher self, which has many personas. our higher self is again just one of the many projections of our greater selves, which are eternal, partaking of both unity and individuality. your thoughts intrigued me, and i am wondering if you have thought about this question, because if you have a good answer, i would like to hear it. i am fascinated by spiritual metaphysics.
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Original post: bellenigma
[QUOTE=Aurum;373051]This doesn't sound right to me. Because we would have to of come out of the ocean or "pool" originally and we have a sense of individuality. A composition would have to of arisen from out of the ocean. It's not combatable to talk about manifestation being made of both dark and light and then suddenly be exclusive from God only from a "turn of card" when He is supposed to be the Father of our and all fellow's manifestation in the first place. What do you believe is spiritual development?[/QUOTE]
Okay... Sorry if any of what I'm about to say comes out as rude in any way for I only got 3 hours of sleep last night.
Try and step out of whatever preconcieved ideas you may have about "God" and what you think Manifest is so that you may understand what I am telling you. The drop of water in the pool was simply an analogy to the process in which a light soul joins god. You shouldn't look any further into that analogy than that and don't use it to prove your own theory either. It doesn't apply. So as for not being compatible with God being the Father of all Creation... I'm sorry, but this is not Christianity. I already explained to you what god is in dark spirituality. I don't wish to explain it again to you.
Spiritual development is increasing one's awareness and having the ease of movement within the spiritual realm as well as the ability to manipulate the energies that exist within it.
[QUOTE=Aurum;373051]This doesn't sound right to me. Because we would have to of come out of the ocean or "pool" originally and we have a sense of individuality. A composition would have to of arisen from out of the ocean. It's not combatable to talk about manifestation being made of both dark and light and then suddenly be exclusive from God only from a "turn of card" when He is supposed to be the Father of our and all fellow's manifestation in the first place. What do you believe is spiritual development?[/QUOTE]
Okay... Sorry if any of what I'm about to say comes out as rude in any way for I only got 3 hours of sleep last night.
Try and step out of whatever preconcieved ideas you may have about "God" and what you think Manifest is so that you may understand what I am telling you. The drop of water in the pool was simply an analogy to the process in which a light soul joins god. You shouldn't look any further into that analogy than that and don't use it to prove your own theory either. It doesn't apply. So as for not being compatible with God being the Father of all Creation... I'm sorry, but this is not Christianity. I already explained to you what god is in dark spirituality. I don't wish to explain it again to you.
Spiritual development is increasing one's awareness and having the ease of movement within the spiritual realm as well as the ability to manipulate the energies that exist within it.
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Dark Spirituality - Xenognosis
Original post: bellenigma
[QUOTE=funquie;373065]Again, I'm sorry about the case of mistaken identity. Your posts come across as bright, well-reasoned, and thoughtful, and you're definitely enthusiastic in your practice. [/QUOTE]
Apology accepted.
[QUOTE=funquie;373065]But I still hold that your obsession with individuation is just that, an infatuation borne from the enthusiasm of newness to the path. You'll find that the deeper you get into this path of study, the farther you get from the you/me/God mentality of divisive reality, and the closer you drift toward the concept that Quantum Physics is really correct, and EVERYTHING that has ever come in contact in inextricably connected, which inevitably leads to the realization that EVERYTHING is pretty much connected on some level already. There is no you/me/God/tree/star. We're all Star Stuff. Or as Crowley so eloquently put it, decades before anyone even thought of the nature of Quantum Reality, "Every Man and Woman is a Star".[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say I have an obsession or infatuation with the idea of Individuation, but enthusiasm...why not? Actually, if you want to bring emotion into the matter then I would say the concept scares me if anything. But at the same time, the idea of being stuck in the reincarnation cycle isn't appetizing to me either. I much rather individuate by working hard in developing my psychic abilities and learning to be self-sufficient than have multiple lives for the rest of eternity, each time losing all my knowledge of the previous lives and never attaining absolute freedom.
You/me/god mentality? God has his own agenda. Same as every other god in the universe and any astral entity for the matter. I'm not against God. I have nothing to do with god and god has nothing to do with me. And I am not against you either. I am simply showing anyone interested what dark spirituality is. This is not a you/me/god mentality or an either/or mentality. This is simply theories that your welcome to put to the test and discover for yourself. As for me... I am happy to proclaim my inherent selfishness in such a path. I care about myself and you should care about yourself.
I'm well aware of quantum theory. Everything is interconnected and we're all made up of the same stuff. You must also know that quantum theory says that all is random and thoughts affect reality. But did you ever think about why such particles as electrons, neutrons, and protons are categorized as such? In essence, they are made up of even smaller particles that are reduced to something that makes up everything. Still we see different substances in our world with different properties attributed to each. This is what I mean by dark and light. Besides, the way you seem to be understanding quantum physics indicates that no one can be an individual. That because everything can be reduced to the same "Star Stuff", one should be no different than the other... which obviously isn't the case.
[QUOTE=funquie;373065]Again, I'm sorry about the case of mistaken identity. Your posts come across as bright, well-reasoned, and thoughtful, and you're definitely enthusiastic in your practice. [/QUOTE]
Apology accepted.
[QUOTE=funquie;373065]But I still hold that your obsession with individuation is just that, an infatuation borne from the enthusiasm of newness to the path. You'll find that the deeper you get into this path of study, the farther you get from the you/me/God mentality of divisive reality, and the closer you drift toward the concept that Quantum Physics is really correct, and EVERYTHING that has ever come in contact in inextricably connected, which inevitably leads to the realization that EVERYTHING is pretty much connected on some level already. There is no you/me/God/tree/star. We're all Star Stuff. Or as Crowley so eloquently put it, decades before anyone even thought of the nature of Quantum Reality, "Every Man and Woman is a Star".[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say I have an obsession or infatuation with the idea of Individuation, but enthusiasm...why not? Actually, if you want to bring emotion into the matter then I would say the concept scares me if anything. But at the same time, the idea of being stuck in the reincarnation cycle isn't appetizing to me either. I much rather individuate by working hard in developing my psychic abilities and learning to be self-sufficient than have multiple lives for the rest of eternity, each time losing all my knowledge of the previous lives and never attaining absolute freedom.
You/me/god mentality? God has his own agenda. Same as every other god in the universe and any astral entity for the matter. I'm not against God. I have nothing to do with god and god has nothing to do with me. And I am not against you either. I am simply showing anyone interested what dark spirituality is. This is not a you/me/god mentality or an either/or mentality. This is simply theories that your welcome to put to the test and discover for yourself. As for me... I am happy to proclaim my inherent selfishness in such a path. I care about myself and you should care about yourself.
I'm well aware of quantum theory. Everything is interconnected and we're all made up of the same stuff. You must also know that quantum theory says that all is random and thoughts affect reality. But did you ever think about why such particles as electrons, neutrons, and protons are categorized as such? In essence, they are made up of even smaller particles that are reduced to something that makes up everything. Still we see different substances in our world with different properties attributed to each. This is what I mean by dark and light. Besides, the way you seem to be understanding quantum physics indicates that no one can be an individual. That because everything can be reduced to the same "Star Stuff", one should be no different than the other... which obviously isn't the case.
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Dark Spirituality - Xenognosis
Original post: funquie
[QUOTE=bellenigma;373447]
You/me/god mentality? God has his own agenda. Same as every other god in the universe and any astral entity for the matter. I'm not against God. I have nothing to do with god and god has nothing to do with me. And I am not against you either. I am simply showing anyone interested what dark spirituality is. This is not a you/me/god mentality or an either/or mentality.[/QUOTE]
By merely acknowledging that there is an entity called "God" which is somehow separate from you, and that you are somehow separate from all other humans, you have completely admitted that you believe in the you/me/God mentality--that is what I meant. By saying that you don't have anything to do with god, and then capitalizing the name, you have shown, however subconsciously, that you DO in fact believe in and have something to do with this entity called God.
Words have meaning. And when we don't choose our words precisely, it is THEN that they speak the most truth about our REAL core beliefs...
[QUOTE=bellenigma;373447]I care about myself and you should care about yourself.[/QUOTE]
This is a snipe, meant to somehow imply that I do not care about myself, and that somehow I am not concerned with my own perfection, improvement, or illumination. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've been a practicing Pagan, Occultist, and Magickian for longer than you have been drawing breath. I've started covens that lasted longer than you have been dressing your self. It is very presumptuous of you to imply that I am not concerned with my own personal development...
[QUOTE=bellenigma;373447]You must also know that quantum theory says that all is random and thoughts affect reality. [/QUOTE]
As a well-informed student of modern physics and it's conjunctions with philosophy, phenomenology, and cosmology, then I'm sure you are also aware that this supposition is really not a commonly held belief in quantum physics anymore. There has been a lot of discussion about the "observer effecting the outcome" premise, and the current popular thought is that in fact, the causality is completely non-linear. One common idea now is that a future outcome actually prompts a specific observer, in a non-linear time frame, to come and watch. Non-linear causality is the most "dangerous" philosophical premises of Quantum Physics, because it postulated that causality may not always be forward-linear on the timeline, but may in fact be backwardly-linear or even cross-reality linked.
[QUOTE=bellenigma;373447]Still we see different substances in our world with different properties attributed to each. This is what I mean by dark and light. Besides, the way you seem to be understanding quantum physics indicates that no one can be an individual. That because everything can be reduced to the same "Star Stuff", one should be no different than the other... which obviously isn't the case.[/QUOTE]
Reductio ad absurdum...
Do they not teach Logic, Rhetoric, and Classical Debate in the schools anymore? Whatever happened to an education that taught people how to think critically?...
Nowhere did I say (or does QP say) that individuals are not different just because we are all made of the same stuff. There is a HUGE difference between "not different" and "connected". The "not different" myth is something that was forced into modern consciousness by the Feminist movement (PLEASE don't misinterpret this--I LOVE women, but I think we can all agree that biologically, chemically, and functionally males and females ARE different...) and I do not subscribe to that whole "Everyone is exactly equal in all ways" foolishness. That is like saying that anyone can be an NFL quarterback, or anyone can be a test pilot, or anyone can successfully conjour Lucifuge to full physical manifestation. Pishah...
We are all, in our own special ways, different, and individual. However, we are all ALSO connected--energetically, spiritually, economically, quantum-ly and in a number of other ways. The "divine spark", which is the same spark that fuels the inner fires of the stars, and the same spark that brings life to a sprouting seed, and that same spark of energy that fuels the recombinant splicing of the DNA of an ova and a sperm--that spark IS the same, because it comes from the same source, and is made of the same thing--pure energy, linked quantum-ly to the most recent "Big Bang" which created our current reality-sphere.
Light--Dark? These are not different forms of energy--they are merely different perceptions of the same continuum, two sides of a coin, two sides of the Moon, the difference between looking into the Sun, and looking out into space. It is YOU, the perceiver that maked the distinction between these two states, and differentiates them as being distinctly different and individual.
See what I mean?
[QUOTE=bellenigma;373447]
You/me/god mentality? God has his own agenda. Same as every other god in the universe and any astral entity for the matter. I'm not against God. I have nothing to do with god and god has nothing to do with me. And I am not against you either. I am simply showing anyone interested what dark spirituality is. This is not a you/me/god mentality or an either/or mentality.[/QUOTE]
By merely acknowledging that there is an entity called "God" which is somehow separate from you, and that you are somehow separate from all other humans, you have completely admitted that you believe in the you/me/God mentality--that is what I meant. By saying that you don't have anything to do with god, and then capitalizing the name, you have shown, however subconsciously, that you DO in fact believe in and have something to do with this entity called God.
Words have meaning. And when we don't choose our words precisely, it is THEN that they speak the most truth about our REAL core beliefs...
[QUOTE=bellenigma;373447]I care about myself and you should care about yourself.[/QUOTE]
This is a snipe, meant to somehow imply that I do not care about myself, and that somehow I am not concerned with my own perfection, improvement, or illumination. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've been a practicing Pagan, Occultist, and Magickian for longer than you have been drawing breath. I've started covens that lasted longer than you have been dressing your self. It is very presumptuous of you to imply that I am not concerned with my own personal development...
[QUOTE=bellenigma;373447]You must also know that quantum theory says that all is random and thoughts affect reality. [/QUOTE]
As a well-informed student of modern physics and it's conjunctions with philosophy, phenomenology, and cosmology, then I'm sure you are also aware that this supposition is really not a commonly held belief in quantum physics anymore. There has been a lot of discussion about the "observer effecting the outcome" premise, and the current popular thought is that in fact, the causality is completely non-linear. One common idea now is that a future outcome actually prompts a specific observer, in a non-linear time frame, to come and watch. Non-linear causality is the most "dangerous" philosophical premises of Quantum Physics, because it postulated that causality may not always be forward-linear on the timeline, but may in fact be backwardly-linear or even cross-reality linked.
[QUOTE=bellenigma;373447]Still we see different substances in our world with different properties attributed to each. This is what I mean by dark and light. Besides, the way you seem to be understanding quantum physics indicates that no one can be an individual. That because everything can be reduced to the same "Star Stuff", one should be no different than the other... which obviously isn't the case.[/QUOTE]
Reductio ad absurdum...
Do they not teach Logic, Rhetoric, and Classical Debate in the schools anymore? Whatever happened to an education that taught people how to think critically?...
Nowhere did I say (or does QP say) that individuals are not different just because we are all made of the same stuff. There is a HUGE difference between "not different" and "connected". The "not different" myth is something that was forced into modern consciousness by the Feminist movement (PLEASE don't misinterpret this--I LOVE women, but I think we can all agree that biologically, chemically, and functionally males and females ARE different...) and I do not subscribe to that whole "Everyone is exactly equal in all ways" foolishness. That is like saying that anyone can be an NFL quarterback, or anyone can be a test pilot, or anyone can successfully conjour Lucifuge to full physical manifestation. Pishah...
We are all, in our own special ways, different, and individual. However, we are all ALSO connected--energetically, spiritually, economically, quantum-ly and in a number of other ways. The "divine spark", which is the same spark that fuels the inner fires of the stars, and the same spark that brings life to a sprouting seed, and that same spark of energy that fuels the recombinant splicing of the DNA of an ova and a sperm--that spark IS the same, because it comes from the same source, and is made of the same thing--pure energy, linked quantum-ly to the most recent "Big Bang" which created our current reality-sphere.
Light--Dark? These are not different forms of energy--they are merely different perceptions of the same continuum, two sides of a coin, two sides of the Moon, the difference between looking into the Sun, and looking out into space. It is YOU, the perceiver that maked the distinction between these two states, and differentiates them as being distinctly different and individual.
See what I mean?
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Original post: bellenigma
[QUOTE=destructive_metaphysician;373071]
the thing that i am interested in though, bellenigma, since you are being good enough to discuss this at length, is when you talk about individuation in the astral after death and continuation of your astral body...i am wanting to know a little more of your metaphysical view on your various bodies and how they interact. i have a very specific view handed down from franz bardon's lineage that renders this notion either impossible or hellish (hellish because your astral body alone is not something that you want to dwell in absent your higher selves as it causes you to be a spirit zombie). could you please outline how it is possible to maintain individuality? i see it that our physical persona is a projection of our higher self, which has many personas. our higher self is again just one of the many projections of our greater selves, which are eternal, partaking of both unity and individuality. your thoughts intrigued me, and i am wondering if you have thought about this question, because if you have a good answer, i would like to hear it. i am fascinated by spiritual metaphysics.[/QUOTE]
Lol Okay, this is how I see it.... There is the physical body and then there is the spirit which is capable of living beyond the physical. The physical body is only a means to function on the physical plane. Sentience is the conscious awareness, the 'I' within - that which experiences, percieves and knows and is aware of its own existence. This is the true self. All else can be lost and the individual still exists as long as the sentience contained within the core essence is maintained. This awareness or sentience has access to the resources you can provide... a physical body, a mind, psychic abilities, emotions, personality and so forth. The energy available to our sentience can be intimate or remote. Intimate energy is that which is held within the core essence and any enhancement leads to an increase in consciousness, the ability to encompass higher order information, to exist in stronger energy fields, to resist damage to the core itself. Sentience itself is enhanced. Remote energy is that which is used by the individual to interact with external reality - it is used to perceive, to move, to communicate, to manipulate, to attack, to defend - in fact to do anything. Energy is thus a crucial resource. Without energy access the core-essence can not be maintained and the sentience is lost.
You maintain individuality by not getting "eaten" so to speak by other entities by using well-developed psychic skills. Spiritual death is the end of manifestation for the individual concerned. Before it they feel, think and are aware, after it there is nothing. Although energy can not be destroyed, it can be changed from one state to another. The core essence of each individual is a unique pattern of energy. It requires a certain amount of energy to sustain itself. If energy drops below this critical level the pattern is lost. If excessive energy is put into it, beyond the limits it can tolerate, the pattern is lost. If it is deliberately pulled apart, the pattern is lost. The energy that once was that individual is either dispersed or is used for other things. Even if all the energy removed from an individual at spiritual death that has been re-used, absorbed by others, or just spread across the face of infinity, could be reassembled, it would still not recreate that individual. Sentience once lost in spiritual death can never be restored.
By the way, I used my mentor's words and his mentor's words so I could better explain. They go by Ninja and Soronwolf on the net.
[QUOTE=destructive_metaphysician;373071]
the thing that i am interested in though, bellenigma, since you are being good enough to discuss this at length, is when you talk about individuation in the astral after death and continuation of your astral body...i am wanting to know a little more of your metaphysical view on your various bodies and how they interact. i have a very specific view handed down from franz bardon's lineage that renders this notion either impossible or hellish (hellish because your astral body alone is not something that you want to dwell in absent your higher selves as it causes you to be a spirit zombie). could you please outline how it is possible to maintain individuality? i see it that our physical persona is a projection of our higher self, which has many personas. our higher self is again just one of the many projections of our greater selves, which are eternal, partaking of both unity and individuality. your thoughts intrigued me, and i am wondering if you have thought about this question, because if you have a good answer, i would like to hear it. i am fascinated by spiritual metaphysics.[/QUOTE]
Lol Okay, this is how I see it.... There is the physical body and then there is the spirit which is capable of living beyond the physical. The physical body is only a means to function on the physical plane. Sentience is the conscious awareness, the 'I' within - that which experiences, percieves and knows and is aware of its own existence. This is the true self. All else can be lost and the individual still exists as long as the sentience contained within the core essence is maintained. This awareness or sentience has access to the resources you can provide... a physical body, a mind, psychic abilities, emotions, personality and so forth. The energy available to our sentience can be intimate or remote. Intimate energy is that which is held within the core essence and any enhancement leads to an increase in consciousness, the ability to encompass higher order information, to exist in stronger energy fields, to resist damage to the core itself. Sentience itself is enhanced. Remote energy is that which is used by the individual to interact with external reality - it is used to perceive, to move, to communicate, to manipulate, to attack, to defend - in fact to do anything. Energy is thus a crucial resource. Without energy access the core-essence can not be maintained and the sentience is lost.
You maintain individuality by not getting "eaten" so to speak by other entities by using well-developed psychic skills. Spiritual death is the end of manifestation for the individual concerned. Before it they feel, think and are aware, after it there is nothing. Although energy can not be destroyed, it can be changed from one state to another. The core essence of each individual is a unique pattern of energy. It requires a certain amount of energy to sustain itself. If energy drops below this critical level the pattern is lost. If excessive energy is put into it, beyond the limits it can tolerate, the pattern is lost. If it is deliberately pulled apart, the pattern is lost. The energy that once was that individual is either dispersed or is used for other things. Even if all the energy removed from an individual at spiritual death that has been re-used, absorbed by others, or just spread across the face of infinity, could be reassembled, it would still not recreate that individual. Sentience once lost in spiritual death can never be restored.
By the way, I used my mentor's words and his mentor's words so I could better explain. They go by Ninja and Soronwolf on the net.
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Original post: bellenigma
By the way, my comment that "I care about myself and you should care about yourself"... I meant it as you should not be so concerned in my views and whether they are wrong and worry more about yourself since in my beliefs, no one is more important and deserving of care than one's self. My comment did not go so far as to say that I positively thought you are not concerned with your own perfection, improvement, or illumination. I simply meant that you should be happy and content with your ideas and perhaps not waste your time so by fervently accusing mine of being inept. Sharing ideas and disparaging ideas are two very different things.
I never said I didn't believe in God. Many gods exist. I just don't interact with them and they don't interact with me and I have no wish to do so. I am also not a soul that could be accumulated into God. So then what's wrong with having a you and a me? Would you rather we be one?funquie;373491 wrote: By merely acknowledging that there is an entity called "God" which is somehow separate from you, and that you are somehow separate from all other humans, you have completely admitted that you believe in the you/me/God mentality--that is what I meant. By saying that you don't have anything to do with god, and then capitalizing the name, you have shown, however subconsciously, that you DO in fact believe in and have something to do with this entity called God.
Ahh yes... a snipe! So what would these comments constitute as...funquie;373491 wrote: This is a snipe, meant to somehow imply that I do not care about myself, and that somehow I am not concerned with my own perfection, improvement, or illumination. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've been a practicing Pagan, Occultist, and Magickian for longer than you have been drawing breath. I've started covens that lasted longer than you have been dressing your self. It is very presumptuous of you to imply that I am not concerned with my own personal development...
your little "Individuated Man becomes God" trip.
I tend to think that I've moved beyond this "Either/Or" mentality. Your "Dark Person" idea is a relatively common POV among those new to the Magickal Arts, especially those coming to it from the "left side" of the tracks...
But I still hold that your obsession with individuation is just that, an infatuation borne from the enthusiasm of newness to the path.
All of your posts on this thread is arguing against me in quite the condescending tone all because of your arrogance and one-minded nature towards spirituality. I never said my way is the only way, but if it happens to be an other's way then let it be known.But you need to chill out a little on this whole "individuation" kick. It's a 40-year-old bit of Pop psychology claptrap that was dicey when it was new, and now it's just stale and dicey...
By the way, my comment that "I care about myself and you should care about yourself"... I meant it as you should not be so concerned in my views and whether they are wrong and worry more about yourself since in my beliefs, no one is more important and deserving of care than one's self. My comment did not go so far as to say that I positively thought you are not concerned with your own perfection, improvement, or illumination. I simply meant that you should be happy and content with your ideas and perhaps not waste your time so by fervently accusing mine of being inept. Sharing ideas and disparaging ideas are two very different things.
As well-informed as I could be from watching What the Bleep do we Know? once...lolfunquie;373491 wrote: As a well-informed student of modern physics and it's conjunctions with philosophy, phenomenology, and cosmology, then I'm sure you are also aware that this supposition is really not a commonly held belief in quantum physics anymore. There has been a lot of discussion about the "observer effecting the outcome" premise, and the current popular thought is that in fact, the causality is completely non-linear. One common idea now is that a future outcome actually prompts a specific observer, in a non-linear time frame, to come and watch. Non-linear causality is the most "dangerous" philosophical premises of Quantum Physics, because it postulated that causality may not always be forward-linear on the timeline, but may in fact be backwardly-linear or even cross-reality linked.
Judge others by their questions rather than by their answers. ~Voltairefunquie;373491 wrote: Do they not teach Logic, Rhetoric, and Classical Debate in the schools anymore? Whatever happened to an education that taught people how to think critically?...
Then it's perception. It is dark spirituality's interpretation of what is. I hold that there is still light and dark energy. Could be the same inherent thing though.funquie;373491 wrote: Nowhere did I say (or does QP say) that individuals are not different just because we are all made of the same stuff. There is a HUGE difference between "not different" and "connected". The "not different" myth is something that was forced into modern consciousness by the Feminist movement (PLEASE don't misinterpret this--I LOVE women, but I think we can all agree that biologically, chemically, and functionally males and females ARE different...) and I do not subscribe to that whole "Everyone is exactly equal in all ways" foolishness. That is like saying that anyone can be an NFL quarterback, or anyone can be a test pilot, or anyone can successfully conjour Lucifuge to full physical manifestation. Pishah...
We are all, in our own special ways, different, and individual. However, we are all ALSO connected--energetically, spiritually, economically, quantum-ly and in a number of other ways. The "divine spark", which is the same spark that fuels the inner fires of the stars, and the same spark that brings life to a sprouting seed, and that same spark of energy that fuels the recombinant splicing of the DNA of an ova and a sperm--that spark IS the same, because it comes from the same source, and is made of the same thing--pure energy, linked quantum-ly to the most recent "Big Bang" which created our current reality-sphere.
Light--Dark? These are not different forms of energy--they are merely different perceptions of the same continuum, two sides of a coin, two sides of the Moon, the difference between looking into the Sun, and looking out into space. It is YOU, the perceiver that maked the distinction between these two states, and differentiates them as being distinctly different and individual.
See what I mean?
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Original post: Terenas
This has been interesting. Most open claims to dark anything that I run across irritate me within a couple of lines. I don't necessarily agree you bellenigma but this has provided for a very interesting read. I do have an alt view since I am pledged to a concept that I merely refer to as light or virtue dependent on my mood and whether I'm going to be discussing a being that is both malevolent and known for using light symbolism.
I fall back on light often enough for a variety of matters, some minor, some not but the pledge that I made to it has demanded thought and changes in attitude. It will eventually demand further motion ( I have a tendency to dodge things far more than I should), but the process if it doesn't simply break me will provide a tempered and fortified mind. If through the process of honoring my pledge, the choices made strengthen me on an individual, mortal level, then I would presume it is possible that service to a given concept, power, entity, etc could also strengthen a spiritual pattern enough to accept greater exposure to that power. The end result being that a soul can grow closer to Light without necessarily losing all that they are within it except by choice because the process of coming closer will fortify them enough to continue approaching.
If you want the closest I can come to a decent analogy, think Stars Wars Force ghosts as Stover presents them in the RotS novel. Qui-Gon lived and died in service to something greater but found after death that he could join the Force without losing who he was where previous Jedi thought normally tended to be, you join the force and all consciousness dies.
This has been interesting. Most open claims to dark anything that I run across irritate me within a couple of lines. I don't necessarily agree you bellenigma but this has provided for a very interesting read. I do have an alt view since I am pledged to a concept that I merely refer to as light or virtue dependent on my mood and whether I'm going to be discussing a being that is both malevolent and known for using light symbolism.
I fall back on light often enough for a variety of matters, some minor, some not but the pledge that I made to it has demanded thought and changes in attitude. It will eventually demand further motion ( I have a tendency to dodge things far more than I should), but the process if it doesn't simply break me will provide a tempered and fortified mind. If through the process of honoring my pledge, the choices made strengthen me on an individual, mortal level, then I would presume it is possible that service to a given concept, power, entity, etc could also strengthen a spiritual pattern enough to accept greater exposure to that power. The end result being that a soul can grow closer to Light without necessarily losing all that they are within it except by choice because the process of coming closer will fortify them enough to continue approaching.
If you want the closest I can come to a decent analogy, think Stars Wars Force ghosts as Stover presents them in the RotS novel. Qui-Gon lived and died in service to something greater but found after death that he could join the Force without losing who he was where previous Jedi thought normally tended to be, you join the force and all consciousness dies.
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Original post: Aurum
That's okay; it didn't come across as rude. Besides I understand that it is I who am asking the questions about your beliefs. But the way I see it, is that it does apply to the analogy, because it's a return to the source (light). Unless you've clarified somewhere else in this topic what you believe God to be then writing God as creator isn't so outrageous and definitively not in the context of just Christianity. Do you think it is suitable to refer to people belonging to a light religion when it actually isn't their religion then?
If "darkness" is energy why couldn't it unify? How could it of gone from one entity to another then? Don't you believe that people visit the spiritual worlds regularly?
That's okay; it didn't come across as rude. Besides I understand that it is I who am asking the questions about your beliefs. But the way I see it, is that it does apply to the analogy, because it's a return to the source (light). Unless you've clarified somewhere else in this topic what you believe God to be then writing God as creator isn't so outrageous and definitively not in the context of just Christianity. Do you think it is suitable to refer to people belonging to a light religion when it actually isn't their religion then?
If "darkness" is energy why couldn't it unify? How could it of gone from one entity to another then? Don't you believe that people visit the spiritual worlds regularly?
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Original post: bellenigma
[QUOTE=Terenas;373542]This has been interesting. Most open claims to dark anything that I run across irritate me within a couple of lines. I don't necessarily agree you bellenigma but this has provided for a very interesting read. I do have an alt view since I am pledged to a concept that I merely refer to as light or virtue dependent on my mood and whether I'm going to be discussing a being that is both malevolent and known for using light symbolism.
I fall back on light often enough for a variety of matters, some minor, some not but the pledge that I made to it has demanded thought and changes in attitude. It will eventually demand further motion ( I have a tendency to dodge things far more than I should), but the process if it doesn't simply break me will provide a tempered and fortified mind. If through the process of honoring my pledge, the choices made strengthen me on an individual, mortal level, then I would presume it is possible that service to a given concept, power, entity, etc could also strengthen a spiritual pattern enough to accept greater exposure to that power. The end result being that a soul can grow closer to Light without necessarily losing all that they are within it except by choice because the process of coming closer will fortify them enough to continue approaching.
If you want the closest I can come to a decent analogy, think Stars Wars Force ghosts as Stover presents them in the RotS novel. Qui-Gon lived and died in service to something greater but found after death that he could join the Force without losing who he was where previous Jedi thought normally tended to be, you join the force and all consciousness dies.[/QUOTE]
Well most open claims to dark have dark meaning something having to do with negativity, weakness, death, unconsciousness, rebellion, evil, or black magic which is has nothing to do with dark spirituality. I'm not sure if I understood your view well. Could you explain to me another way. Sorry, I don't know much about Star Wars.
[QUOTE=Terenas;373542]This has been interesting. Most open claims to dark anything that I run across irritate me within a couple of lines. I don't necessarily agree you bellenigma but this has provided for a very interesting read. I do have an alt view since I am pledged to a concept that I merely refer to as light or virtue dependent on my mood and whether I'm going to be discussing a being that is both malevolent and known for using light symbolism.
I fall back on light often enough for a variety of matters, some minor, some not but the pledge that I made to it has demanded thought and changes in attitude. It will eventually demand further motion ( I have a tendency to dodge things far more than I should), but the process if it doesn't simply break me will provide a tempered and fortified mind. If through the process of honoring my pledge, the choices made strengthen me on an individual, mortal level, then I would presume it is possible that service to a given concept, power, entity, etc could also strengthen a spiritual pattern enough to accept greater exposure to that power. The end result being that a soul can grow closer to Light without necessarily losing all that they are within it except by choice because the process of coming closer will fortify them enough to continue approaching.
If you want the closest I can come to a decent analogy, think Stars Wars Force ghosts as Stover presents them in the RotS novel. Qui-Gon lived and died in service to something greater but found after death that he could join the Force without losing who he was where previous Jedi thought normally tended to be, you join the force and all consciousness dies.[/QUOTE]
Well most open claims to dark have dark meaning something having to do with negativity, weakness, death, unconsciousness, rebellion, evil, or black magic which is has nothing to do with dark spirituality. I'm not sure if I understood your view well. Could you explain to me another way. Sorry, I don't know much about Star Wars.
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Original post: bellenigma
Aurum;373552 wrote:That's okay; it didn't come across as rude. Besides I understand that it is I who am asking the questions about your beliefs. But the way I see it, is that it does apply to the analogy, because it's a return to the source (light). Unless you've clarified somewhere else in this topic what you believe God to be then writing God as creator isn't so outrageous and definitively not in the context of just Christianity.
Was this not clear enough as to what "God" is in dark spirituality? I'm not sure if God creates Light souls or not. It's possible. I can't really answer on where souls come from. I don't remember how it was explained to me.God or heaven is this global consciousness made up of light energy, it accumulates souls and each soul just becomes another countless vote as part of that "whole". They become "one".
I wasn't saying you were of a light religion. I just said that the God you were thinking of was from Christianity's point of view.Do you think it is suitable to refer to people belonging to a light religion when it actually isn't their religion then?
This sounded similar to "God the Father" who "created heaven and earth" from the Bible. Manifest is not due to God.It's not combatable to talk about manifestation being made of both dark and light and then suddenly be exclusive from God only from a "turn of card" when He is supposed to be the Father of our and all fellow's manifestation in the first place.
It is simply not in the dark's nature. I don't think I understand your question well. Why do you suppose the dark would need or want to unify? What situation are you thinking of?If "darkness" is energy why couldn't it unify?
The sentience that consumes another's sentience destroys the individual and uses its energy for whatever its needs are.How could it of gone from one entity to another then?
I never stated that they didn't. Of course I believe people visit the astral on a regular basis.Don't you believe that people visit the spiritual worlds regularly?
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Original post: Terenas
[QUOTE=bellenigma;373650]Well most open claims to dark have dark meaning something having to do with negativity, weakness, death, unconsciousness, rebellion, evil, or black magic which is has nothing to do with dark spirituality. I'm not sure if I understood your view well. Could you explain to me another way. Sorry, I don't know much about Star Wars.[/QUOTE]
Blast, Star Was had the best example, the next comparisons have a variety of weak points cut out part of my original point but hopefully will convey the core principle.
The theology you're working off takes the idea of unity with the divine as a permanent loss of self. You used the image of water dropped into a sea, it immediately is lost within the greater body. I prefer the image of light with a prism. If I shine light on a prism in the right manner then I go from base white light to a multitude of colors. If I remove the prism then I lose my mini-rainbow and go back to white light. Treat the divine as white light and specific souls as different colors. Sometimes a soul may be indistinguishable from the light, sometimes it separates itself out dependent on the conditions.
An alternate example, programmers please correct me if I misrepresent the tools of your trade, it has been some time since the courses I took in high school. A decent amount of programs are set up under a paradigm referred to as object oriented. Basically, the main program has several lesser self contained programs called objects in it that are dedicated to specific tasks. For instance one object may be devoted to letting me type and a different one goes into effect when I submit the text for display on the boards. Thing about objects if I remember correctly is that they're pretty self contained. An object used in one system is easy enough to set up in a different one. One program has loads of them but if you can't see the source code it doesn't matter. All you'll see from the outside is what the program does.
My main point, however distorted my arguments are is that union with the divine and complete oblivion aren't always the same. At least provided that the divinity doesn't get sufficiently pissed off to arrange union by breaking you and absorbing what's left over and provided that the soul in question isn't seeking such an oblivion.
[QUOTE=bellenigma;373650]Well most open claims to dark have dark meaning something having to do with negativity, weakness, death, unconsciousness, rebellion, evil, or black magic which is has nothing to do with dark spirituality. I'm not sure if I understood your view well. Could you explain to me another way. Sorry, I don't know much about Star Wars.[/QUOTE]
Blast, Star Was had the best example, the next comparisons have a variety of weak points cut out part of my original point but hopefully will convey the core principle.
The theology you're working off takes the idea of unity with the divine as a permanent loss of self. You used the image of water dropped into a sea, it immediately is lost within the greater body. I prefer the image of light with a prism. If I shine light on a prism in the right manner then I go from base white light to a multitude of colors. If I remove the prism then I lose my mini-rainbow and go back to white light. Treat the divine as white light and specific souls as different colors. Sometimes a soul may be indistinguishable from the light, sometimes it separates itself out dependent on the conditions.
An alternate example, programmers please correct me if I misrepresent the tools of your trade, it has been some time since the courses I took in high school. A decent amount of programs are set up under a paradigm referred to as object oriented. Basically, the main program has several lesser self contained programs called objects in it that are dedicated to specific tasks. For instance one object may be devoted to letting me type and a different one goes into effect when I submit the text for display on the boards. Thing about objects if I remember correctly is that they're pretty self contained. An object used in one system is easy enough to set up in a different one. One program has loads of them but if you can't see the source code it doesn't matter. All you'll see from the outside is what the program does.
My main point, however distorted my arguments are is that union with the divine and complete oblivion aren't always the same. At least provided that the divinity doesn't get sufficiently pissed off to arrange union by breaking you and absorbing what's left over and provided that the soul in question isn't seeking such an oblivion.
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Original post: Aurum
[QUOTE=bellenigma]God or heaven is this global consciousness made up of light energy, it accumulates souls and each soul just becomes another countless vote as part of that "whole". They become "one". [/quote]
[QUOTE=bellenigma]Was this not clear enough as to what "God" is in dark spirituality? I'm not sure if God creates Light souls or not. It's possible. I can't really answer on where souls come from. I don't remember how it was explained to me. [/quote]
No, it's as clear as day. I assumed there was more to it.
[QUOTE=bellenigma]I wasn't saying you were of a light religion. I just said that the God you were thinking of was from Christianity's point of view.[/quote]
Oh okay. So what's the "light religions"?
[QUOTE=bellenigma]It is simply not in the dark's nature. I don't think I understand your question well. Why do you suppose the dark would need or want to unify? What situation are you thinking of?[/quote]
Just from light supposedly being amplified from its accumulation.
[QUOTE=bellenigma]I never stated that they didn't. Of course I believe people visit the astral on a regular basis.[/quote]
People as in you as well?
[QUOTE=bellenigma]God or heaven is this global consciousness made up of light energy, it accumulates souls and each soul just becomes another countless vote as part of that "whole". They become "one". [/quote]
[QUOTE=bellenigma]Was this not clear enough as to what "God" is in dark spirituality? I'm not sure if God creates Light souls or not. It's possible. I can't really answer on where souls come from. I don't remember how it was explained to me. [/quote]
No, it's as clear as day. I assumed there was more to it.
[QUOTE=bellenigma]I wasn't saying you were of a light religion. I just said that the God you were thinking of was from Christianity's point of view.[/quote]
Oh okay. So what's the "light religions"?
[QUOTE=bellenigma]It is simply not in the dark's nature. I don't think I understand your question well. Why do you suppose the dark would need or want to unify? What situation are you thinking of?[/quote]
Just from light supposedly being amplified from its accumulation.
[QUOTE=bellenigma]I never stated that they didn't. Of course I believe people visit the astral on a regular basis.[/quote]
People as in you as well?
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Original post: bellenigma
[QUOTE=Terenas;373721]Blast, Star Was had the best example, the next comparisons have a variety of weak points cut out part of my original point but hopefully will convey the core principle.
The theology you're working off takes the idea of unity with the divine as a permanent loss of self. You used the image of water dropped into a sea, it immediately is lost within the greater body. I prefer the image of light with a prism. If I shine light on a prism in the right manner then I go from base white light to a multitude of colors. If I remove the prism then I lose my mini-rainbow and go back to white light. Treat the divine as white light and specific souls as different colors. Sometimes a soul may be indistinguishable from the light, sometimes it separates itself out dependent on the conditions.
An alternate example, programmers please correct me if I misrepresent the tools of your trade, it has been some time since the courses I took in high school. A decent amount of programs are set up under a paradigm referred to as object oriented. Basically, the main program has several lesser self contained programs called objects in it that are dedicated to specific tasks. For instance one object may be devoted to letting me type and a different one goes into effect when I submit the text for display on the boards. Thing about objects if I remember correctly is that they're pretty self contained. An object used in one system is easy enough to set up in a different one. One program has loads of them but if you can't see the source code it doesn't matter. All you'll see from the outside is what the program does.
My main point, however distorted my arguments are is that union with the divine and complete oblivion aren't always the same. At least provided that the divinity doesn't get sufficiently pissed off to arrange union by breaking you and absorbing what's left over and provided that the soul in question isn't seeking such an oblivion.[/QUOTE]
Well the light souls that unite with God only lose their will. They can't do, say, think as they please anymore. But they do have sentience, they aren't spiritually dead. However, dark deities aren't interested in accumulating souls the way God does. They have souls work for them, give them tasks to do in exchange of protecting them from other entities that may want to destroy them or they simply absorb you all together which results in spiritual death. So I guess it's a lot riskier of a path for the dark, but it's a fight to keep yourself sentient. Those who are dark are dark by nature, they have no choice in the matter. Well there are the "fallen angels" or "dark angels" that were able to repolarize. Those were the angels who wanted to separate from God and demanded freedom. They were kicked out and forced in a dark energized area. Those who survived the dark, repolarized from light to dark. So there are rare cases that you can chose to become dark. But then again, angels have a different use for God than human souls do.
[QUOTE=Terenas;373721]Blast, Star Was had the best example, the next comparisons have a variety of weak points cut out part of my original point but hopefully will convey the core principle.
The theology you're working off takes the idea of unity with the divine as a permanent loss of self. You used the image of water dropped into a sea, it immediately is lost within the greater body. I prefer the image of light with a prism. If I shine light on a prism in the right manner then I go from base white light to a multitude of colors. If I remove the prism then I lose my mini-rainbow and go back to white light. Treat the divine as white light and specific souls as different colors. Sometimes a soul may be indistinguishable from the light, sometimes it separates itself out dependent on the conditions.
An alternate example, programmers please correct me if I misrepresent the tools of your trade, it has been some time since the courses I took in high school. A decent amount of programs are set up under a paradigm referred to as object oriented. Basically, the main program has several lesser self contained programs called objects in it that are dedicated to specific tasks. For instance one object may be devoted to letting me type and a different one goes into effect when I submit the text for display on the boards. Thing about objects if I remember correctly is that they're pretty self contained. An object used in one system is easy enough to set up in a different one. One program has loads of them but if you can't see the source code it doesn't matter. All you'll see from the outside is what the program does.
My main point, however distorted my arguments are is that union with the divine and complete oblivion aren't always the same. At least provided that the divinity doesn't get sufficiently pissed off to arrange union by breaking you and absorbing what's left over and provided that the soul in question isn't seeking such an oblivion.[/QUOTE]
Well the light souls that unite with God only lose their will. They can't do, say, think as they please anymore. But they do have sentience, they aren't spiritually dead. However, dark deities aren't interested in accumulating souls the way God does. They have souls work for them, give them tasks to do in exchange of protecting them from other entities that may want to destroy them or they simply absorb you all together which results in spiritual death. So I guess it's a lot riskier of a path for the dark, but it's a fight to keep yourself sentient. Those who are dark are dark by nature, they have no choice in the matter. Well there are the "fallen angels" or "dark angels" that were able to repolarize. Those were the angels who wanted to separate from God and demanded freedom. They were kicked out and forced in a dark energized area. Those who survived the dark, repolarized from light to dark. So there are rare cases that you can chose to become dark. But then again, angels have a different use for God than human souls do.
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Original post: bellenigma
[QUOTE=Aurum;373748]Oh okay. So what's the "light religions"?[/QUOTE]
There are many. Some light paths will not be considered religions either. Light individuals are those that seek to unite in any kind of way and "become one". Those of light paths can worship deities or depend on deities for their spiritual development which dark individuals do not. Even some LHPs are light, although they may not like to see it as such. It really depends on the individual. It has nothing to do with religion really, more to do with inherent nature. There are some religions that dark spirituality is confused with. This is mentioned on my mentor's blog. http://gatheringofshadows.blogspot.com/
[QUOTE=Aurum;373748]Just from light supposedly being amplified from its accumulation.[/QUOTE]
Well dark energy can be accumulated, you're right. It's just not in the best interest for the dark to unite.
[QUOTE=Aurum;373748]People as in you as well? [/QUOTE]
LOL Well as a child I could say I regularly astral projected, but I haven't done so since maybe 6th grade. So I know it's possible and many people, including my mentor, tell me they astral project regularly.
[QUOTE=Aurum;373748]Oh okay. So what's the "light religions"?[/QUOTE]
There are many. Some light paths will not be considered religions either. Light individuals are those that seek to unite in any kind of way and "become one". Those of light paths can worship deities or depend on deities for their spiritual development which dark individuals do not. Even some LHPs are light, although they may not like to see it as such. It really depends on the individual. It has nothing to do with religion really, more to do with inherent nature. There are some religions that dark spirituality is confused with. This is mentioned on my mentor's blog. http://gatheringofshadows.blogspot.com/
[QUOTE=Aurum;373748]Just from light supposedly being amplified from its accumulation.[/QUOTE]
Well dark energy can be accumulated, you're right. It's just not in the best interest for the dark to unite.
[QUOTE=Aurum;373748]People as in you as well? [/QUOTE]
LOL Well as a child I could say I regularly astral projected, but I haven't done so since maybe 6th grade. So I know it's possible and many people, including my mentor, tell me they astral project regularly.
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Original post: Aurum
It's of my belief that all humans visit the spiritual worlds regularly. Thanks for taking the time to write for my questions.
It's of my belief that all humans visit the spiritual worlds regularly. Thanks for taking the time to write for my questions.