Original post: Violets
It's not so much if our lives are real but how you see it. Perhaps you should ask yourself why there are so many microorganisms and cells but if you think of it as being an "illusion" then extend that same idea across to your dreams as well. Ask yourself the question: 'Are dreams real then?'. If you could actually study something in a dream (e.g. a rock) using a microscope, then you may find it turns out to be solid matter.
Once you've done that then you should regard reality in a different light than just a mere 3-dimensional level. What I mean is, if you believe that this isn't real then surely you can control your life better as you do with lucid dreaming.
Who is high enough?...
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Original post: AstralMagickCraft
"the universe is mental, the all is mind"
-hermes great great great...
"the universe is mental, the all is mind"
-hermes great great great...
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Who is high enough?...
Original post: Kath_
There is 'nothing' which is not 'potentially' illusion.
That fact actually makes just about any 'belief' fail to be absolutely 'wrong'. Of course it also makes just about any belief fail to be absolutely 'right'.
So its impossible to flub it up in a sense. Just as it's impossible to have a notion so solid that you can rationally lord it over others
In the end there is what you perceive, what you've come to find of the reliability of your perceptions, what others perceive, what you've come to find of their reliability, and what can be logically inferred from this. That is the sum total of this hypothetical universe, as we know it.
So if you use magic, and you see it, and feel it, and it works, and others see/feel/experience it. and if they report similar responses without coaching or sharing a common paradigm of expectation. Then it's as logically real as anything else.
In that sense, my patron is more likely real than the keyboard I'm typing on. My keyboard has never surprised me or taught me things I don't know.
Kath
There is 'nothing' which is not 'potentially' illusion.
That fact actually makes just about any 'belief' fail to be absolutely 'wrong'. Of course it also makes just about any belief fail to be absolutely 'right'.
So its impossible to flub it up in a sense. Just as it's impossible to have a notion so solid that you can rationally lord it over others
In the end there is what you perceive, what you've come to find of the reliability of your perceptions, what others perceive, what you've come to find of their reliability, and what can be logically inferred from this. That is the sum total of this hypothetical universe, as we know it.
So if you use magic, and you see it, and feel it, and it works, and others see/feel/experience it. and if they report similar responses without coaching or sharing a common paradigm of expectation. Then it's as logically real as anything else.
In that sense, my patron is more likely real than the keyboard I'm typing on. My keyboard has never surprised me or taught me things I don't know.
Kath
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Original post: simex
I don't think the idea is entirely baseless speculation.
We know that we don't experience reality directly. The reality that we "see" is a composite drawing based on the input from our senses. We have no way to substantiate that sensory data, except by way of the self same senses. We believe there is an objective reality because we concur with others the data we're receiving. This doesn't really prove anything though.
We could all be playing World of Warcraft, and we could all be agreeing that there is a treasure chest behind a certain tree, but where is this tree really? We could test the limits of the hypothesis using the tools afforded to us by the construct, but if we never realized it was a construct, we would be utterly convinced. And that's really the biggest hurdle; the fact that we believe we see the whole picture, when we know ourselves that there are lifeforms that simply cannot see even a fraction of the picture we do.
Just because you're on the frontier doesn't mean you're at the limit. The biggest obstacle in progress is falsely believing that you've already achieved the goal. When you talk about improving America, how many people respond "It's better than anywhere else."? Or think about the myopic view the vast majority of religious people hold: god created the earth for us, and he needs us to do stuff for him. Whether or not our perception of reality is a part of something larger, we are configured in such a way that finding it would be very difficult.
The following are reasons why I suspect that the universe is generated in consciousness (not necessarily ours):
1) In meditation, it becomes glaringly obvious that there is a mind in my body, and that I am able to observe that mind. But how? The eye cannot see the eye, the tongue cannot taste itself. It certainly seems that the witnessing consciousness is outside of what I call myself. Has anyone shared this experience?
2) The experience in dream is not very different from the waking state. Well, it is very different, but the difference can be boiled down to one factor: the lack of sensory input. During our waking state, we have this input, to constantly remind us that the scenarios and ideas our minds are generating constantly are not "real".
During the dreaming state, the sensory input is not available, and we have nothing to check our experience against. We do, however, have memories; fuzzy impressions. And so, our dreaming experience is a strange, unbounded stream of thought loosely based on our most ingrained memories. Still, it's not wholly random. I'm sure that if you could record people's dreams, you'd be able to tell the difference between a cat's dream and a human's dream.
There's still a common thread, it may not be as concrete as us all agreeing that we're reading posts at OF, but there is a shared experience even in dreaming consciousness. It seems plausible then that our "waking state" is nested in a higher, more "real" state that we cannot be aware of while we're in this one. This is in the same way that the dreaming state is nested in waking conscious, and in order to see the dream, we must become unaware of reality.
Perhaps all the things that we agree to be real are simply long established memories of a "higher" reality.
3) I don't know if anyone else has had this experience, but a few times in my life I have had a really weird sleep where I felt like I just closed my eyes and then opened them 8 hours later. It was as if time suddenly jumped; like I blinked and time traveled to the near future. What this tells me is that the idea of time moving at a certain speed is dependent on perception of time. In other words, time is relative. This has also been demonstrated in the research into the kappa effect which essentially says that time DOES fly when you're having fun. And without brains to slow down the passage / perception of time, then nothing in this world would have any more value than the tiny wisp of snow that blows off the top of the snowbank only to dissolve into the air a moment later.
How many events could we ascribe importance to if we were able to slow the passage of time down further; how many events that pass in the blink of an eye would become apparent to us? How many events that seem so meaningful to us now would be nothing more than the cold mechanics of the universe if we could increase the speed at which time passes. Your entire life could be a fraction of the smallest perceivable unit of time for some alien scientist researching the same universe you sought to understand in that fraction.
---
So yes, most of the "reality is an illusion" thought comes from the fact that "it could be", but the above observations also seem to point to this truth. More importantly though, it's the only construct I can plug my observations into and have them make even a tiny modicum of sense.
I can see how the universe could have began in consciousness as an idea and spiraled into an entire universe. I can't, however, see how it could have just sprang into existence out of nothingness, uncaused. But even that, means very little, if anything.
I don't think the idea is entirely baseless speculation.
We know that we don't experience reality directly. The reality that we "see" is a composite drawing based on the input from our senses. We have no way to substantiate that sensory data, except by way of the self same senses. We believe there is an objective reality because we concur with others the data we're receiving. This doesn't really prove anything though.
We could all be playing World of Warcraft, and we could all be agreeing that there is a treasure chest behind a certain tree, but where is this tree really? We could test the limits of the hypothesis using the tools afforded to us by the construct, but if we never realized it was a construct, we would be utterly convinced. And that's really the biggest hurdle; the fact that we believe we see the whole picture, when we know ourselves that there are lifeforms that simply cannot see even a fraction of the picture we do.
Just because you're on the frontier doesn't mean you're at the limit. The biggest obstacle in progress is falsely believing that you've already achieved the goal. When you talk about improving America, how many people respond "It's better than anywhere else."? Or think about the myopic view the vast majority of religious people hold: god created the earth for us, and he needs us to do stuff for him. Whether or not our perception of reality is a part of something larger, we are configured in such a way that finding it would be very difficult.
The following are reasons why I suspect that the universe is generated in consciousness (not necessarily ours):
1) In meditation, it becomes glaringly obvious that there is a mind in my body, and that I am able to observe that mind. But how? The eye cannot see the eye, the tongue cannot taste itself. It certainly seems that the witnessing consciousness is outside of what I call myself. Has anyone shared this experience?
2) The experience in dream is not very different from the waking state. Well, it is very different, but the difference can be boiled down to one factor: the lack of sensory input. During our waking state, we have this input, to constantly remind us that the scenarios and ideas our minds are generating constantly are not "real".
During the dreaming state, the sensory input is not available, and we have nothing to check our experience against. We do, however, have memories; fuzzy impressions. And so, our dreaming experience is a strange, unbounded stream of thought loosely based on our most ingrained memories. Still, it's not wholly random. I'm sure that if you could record people's dreams, you'd be able to tell the difference between a cat's dream and a human's dream.
There's still a common thread, it may not be as concrete as us all agreeing that we're reading posts at OF, but there is a shared experience even in dreaming consciousness. It seems plausible then that our "waking state" is nested in a higher, more "real" state that we cannot be aware of while we're in this one. This is in the same way that the dreaming state is nested in waking conscious, and in order to see the dream, we must become unaware of reality.
Perhaps all the things that we agree to be real are simply long established memories of a "higher" reality.
3) I don't know if anyone else has had this experience, but a few times in my life I have had a really weird sleep where I felt like I just closed my eyes and then opened them 8 hours later. It was as if time suddenly jumped; like I blinked and time traveled to the near future. What this tells me is that the idea of time moving at a certain speed is dependent on perception of time. In other words, time is relative. This has also been demonstrated in the research into the kappa effect which essentially says that time DOES fly when you're having fun. And without brains to slow down the passage / perception of time, then nothing in this world would have any more value than the tiny wisp of snow that blows off the top of the snowbank only to dissolve into the air a moment later.
How many events could we ascribe importance to if we were able to slow the passage of time down further; how many events that pass in the blink of an eye would become apparent to us? How many events that seem so meaningful to us now would be nothing more than the cold mechanics of the universe if we could increase the speed at which time passes. Your entire life could be a fraction of the smallest perceivable unit of time for some alien scientist researching the same universe you sought to understand in that fraction.
---
So yes, most of the "reality is an illusion" thought comes from the fact that "it could be", but the above observations also seem to point to this truth. More importantly though, it's the only construct I can plug my observations into and have them make even a tiny modicum of sense.
I can see how the universe could have began in consciousness as an idea and spiraled into an entire universe. I can't, however, see how it could have just sprang into existence out of nothingness, uncaused. But even that, means very little, if anything.
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Who is high enough?...
Original post: Kath_
I've always felt that 'consciousness' is a significantly larger thing than 'brain', or even body. It explains rather a lot. including most of your perceptions, and similar ones i've had.
(we're on page 3 and nobody has said how 'high' they are yet... strange huh?)
I've always felt that 'consciousness' is a significantly larger thing than 'brain', or even body. It explains rather a lot. including most of your perceptions, and similar ones i've had.
(we're on page 3 and nobody has said how 'high' they are yet... strange huh?)
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Original post: Yoshiaki_Abe
Despite millennia of Buddhist thoughts defining this life as illusory, I actually believe the opposite. If I have learned nothing else in this lifetime, it is that this human life is totally real.
Though I'm sure others would be quick to argue that fact, my most important criterion for this thought is that if this world were an illusion, then everything that occurs here (from life to death to magic to meditation to karma to nirvana) cannot possibly have any meaning. If it is all illusory, then it is as if everything in this world is simply a dream that we all have yet to wake up from. Nothing that happens here would have any depth or meaning.
Conversely, I believe that humanity exists for a reason. There is some deep meaning surrounding our presence on this earth. Though many people's eyes have been blinded to this, it is clear to me that we are not without a purpose here. For us to have a purpose, this world in which we live must also have a purpose, and the universe in which it exists must also have a purpose. It quickly becomes impossible for any of these things to have a purpose and lack meaning, and if all these things have meaning, then this world cannot possibly be an illusion.
Despite millennia of Buddhist thoughts defining this life as illusory, I actually believe the opposite. If I have learned nothing else in this lifetime, it is that this human life is totally real.
Though I'm sure others would be quick to argue that fact, my most important criterion for this thought is that if this world were an illusion, then everything that occurs here (from life to death to magic to meditation to karma to nirvana) cannot possibly have any meaning. If it is all illusory, then it is as if everything in this world is simply a dream that we all have yet to wake up from. Nothing that happens here would have any depth or meaning.
Conversely, I believe that humanity exists for a reason. There is some deep meaning surrounding our presence on this earth. Though many people's eyes have been blinded to this, it is clear to me that we are not without a purpose here. For us to have a purpose, this world in which we live must also have a purpose, and the universe in which it exists must also have a purpose. It quickly becomes impossible for any of these things to have a purpose and lack meaning, and if all these things have meaning, then this world cannot possibly be an illusion.
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Original post: daibanjo
When I was 7 years old I had a serious case of Rheumatic fever. I was in an isolation hospital for almost 2 years. Its not surprising of course that eventually my dreams involved me being in hospital. Even when I got out I still dreamed I was there.
The thought occurred to me well into adulthood. What if I am still in hospital, in a coma, and all this is just a dream.
I don't think it's true in all seriousness. I hope none of you think it either because then you would just be a part of my dreams
It has made me question what is real and what isn't. It also occurred to me. If this is an illusion, what would happen to the person who could see past the illusion and into the reality behind it all?
When I was 7 years old I had a serious case of Rheumatic fever. I was in an isolation hospital for almost 2 years. Its not surprising of course that eventually my dreams involved me being in hospital. Even when I got out I still dreamed I was there.
The thought occurred to me well into adulthood. What if I am still in hospital, in a coma, and all this is just a dream.
I don't think it's true in all seriousness. I hope none of you think it either because then you would just be a part of my dreams
It has made me question what is real and what isn't. It also occurred to me. If this is an illusion, what would happen to the person who could see past the illusion and into the reality behind it all?
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Original post: Qez
I remember someone reading a book by Richard Dawkins called The God Delusion. I remember smiling at myself then, as I thought - perhaps it is the deluded that are the delusion!
I remember someone reading a book by Richard Dawkins called The God Delusion. I remember smiling at myself then, as I thought - perhaps it is the deluded that are the delusion!
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Original post: qazse
"Real", "Unreal"...it doesn't matter - this is "relative"; the "fact" of objective conscious experience still remains, however.
QaZsE
1
"Real", "Unreal"...it doesn't matter - this is "relative"; the "fact" of objective conscious experience still remains, however.
QaZsE
1
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Original post: necro606
first off, questioning existence. I believe yes we do exist in a world of destruction and peace. Your body is like a car! your spirit can drive the car till the car is old and broken. you just need to let the car go from time to time and then you question if it is part of coexistence.
first off, questioning existence. I believe yes we do exist in a world of destruction and peace. Your body is like a car! your spirit can drive the car till the car is old and broken. you just need to let the car go from time to time and then you question if it is part of coexistence.
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Original post: ARCC
As an ANcient greek filosofer said I only know that I don't know anything but I think that I can control my body so
I guess I'm real but the problem is are you real??:eh:
By the way I'm trying to get to the astral plane for a long time could you help me with that with some tips or those anyone from the Astral could pull me to there??
As an ANcient greek filosofer said I only know that I don't know anything but I think that I can control my body so
I guess I'm real but the problem is are you real??:eh:
By the way I'm trying to get to the astral plane for a long time could you help me with that with some tips or those anyone from the Astral could pull me to there??
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Original post: Azzerac
[QUOTE=ARCC;361756]By the way I'm trying to get to the astral plane for a long time could you help me with that with some tips or those anyone from the Astral could pull me to there??[/QUOTE]
I find Auric Field Exercises, Tai-chi, and Temporal Lobe stimulation, are the best three aspects to focus on, to develop the skill.
Auric Field, to strengthen Said-Astral-Body.
Tai-Chi, to tell how that Energy moves through the body, and how to direct it.
Temporal Lobe Sensitivity, so you aren't Blind to the experience.
I was put into a week-long coma when I was 9 years old, and had been doing it spontaneously, throughout & since that time.
I had an experience (Which I won't share here), back in the early 80s, that traumatized me too deeply to continue my "Spontaneous Forays".
I had to work back up to it, re-developing confidence with each step.
Psychic self-defense is a must!
[QUOTE=ARCC;361756]By the way I'm trying to get to the astral plane for a long time could you help me with that with some tips or those anyone from the Astral could pull me to there??[/QUOTE]
I find Auric Field Exercises, Tai-chi, and Temporal Lobe stimulation, are the best three aspects to focus on, to develop the skill.
Auric Field, to strengthen Said-Astral-Body.
Tai-Chi, to tell how that Energy moves through the body, and how to direct it.
Temporal Lobe Sensitivity, so you aren't Blind to the experience.
I was put into a week-long coma when I was 9 years old, and had been doing it spontaneously, throughout & since that time.
I had an experience (Which I won't share here), back in the early 80s, that traumatized me too deeply to continue my "Spontaneous Forays".
I had to work back up to it, re-developing confidence with each step.
Psychic self-defense is a must!