Original post: Fell
Doing some research and I came across the Dzogchen school of Buddhism, which has been considered heathen in many of the other schools of thought to blossom out of Buddhism in the past centuries. Seems they teach that karma is a load of baloney, among other things.
Now, some of my understanding may be awry here, but like the Sepher ha-Zohar and Koran, or other large and time-enduring religions, perhaps even Buddhism, that there are lessons given for different castes of understanding? As the Zohar is a book of Qabalistic doctrine and the Koran a book of myth and fable (some debate over this, I am sure), does it not stand to reason that lessons are passed down according to the capacity for understanding.
I understand karma to the best of my ability to, but it doesn't make any sense to me. I make decisions based on situations, on the moment, and they are predicated by what I have at hand â?? a culmination of experience, skill, politic, rhetoric, possible emotions at hand, and even an artistic flare to either promote order or chaos in any given event, et cetera. I can often see more than one side to any argument, so who is to dictate what is karmic law?
It stands to reason that we, ourselves, are. Over the course of time, the Universe offers me an endless multitude of opportunity to learn, change, grow, and explore myself in its honour. If I choose not to, it might present more apparent opportunities. If I still persist in my ignorance, the Universe might just kick me in the ass with some event that I might perceive as awful or tragic. It's only because I wasn't listening in the first place. Even some of the laziest people might just be fulfilling what it is they are supposed to? I don't know, I am not God.
But karma seems like a pretty decent thing to pass down to those listening to the wiser of society for rules and regulation. Many don't have the insight to make their own judgements, so turn to others for guidance and inspiration. If you do something bad, you will be punished by divine means.
But in the end, the divine spark lies within us all and we ultimately judge ourselves? If so, through whichever school you pertain to â?? whether Zen, Hermetism, New Ageism, Traditionalism, whatever â?? the ultimate goal of the transcendentalists is always ego abolishment and becoming more human than human. In doing so, they toss aside the shoddy aspects of right, wrong, judgement, libertarianism, and exist as part of the program, seeing it from different levels of consciousness and from different sets of eyes, from the mortal and immortal places.
Once accomplished, there is no karma. Faith and wisdom in oneself is enough to overcome this plight known as karma. And if you keep experimenting with it, especially in ego magic or other forms of ego abolishment, like Tantra, then you will continue to be smacked by something akin to karma in its attempts to teach you to fulfill your dharma: your purpose.
And your purpose, in my opinion, is that of the Universe's. So all karma is, is the Universe's way of making sure we judge ourselves accordingly and it keeps its laws in place in the realm of the ego beings to make sure the program perpetuates itself to its end.
Or not?
Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Rakesh
Karma is for people who like to limit themselves more than the world limits them already.
Just as anything and everything in the world, it only works as long as you believe it.
Its a neat way to keep the occult masses at bay and harmless though.
Karma is for people who like to limit themselves more than the world limits them already.
Just as anything and everything in the world, it only works as long as you believe it.
Its a neat way to keep the occult masses at bay and harmless though.
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: punxzen
i haven't heard much about dzogchen, i recall the name but i cannot remember clearly where i heard it.
a lot of eastern religious traditions are as 'maligned' as a lot of our western religions are. the concept of karma is understood at different levels of insight and from differing perspectives.
i personally understand karma as a simplified 'as above, so below' kind of message. a way of sparking insight into the interconnectedness of this and that.
i think of it as: effeciency begets efficiency, or in a more universal sense, my perception is colored by my experience.
what you assert flavors your reception, and what you recieve flavors your assertion. i think that is the most concise i can describe it
i haven't heard much about dzogchen, i recall the name but i cannot remember clearly where i heard it.
a lot of eastern religious traditions are as 'maligned' as a lot of our western religions are. the concept of karma is understood at different levels of insight and from differing perspectives.
i personally understand karma as a simplified 'as above, so below' kind of message. a way of sparking insight into the interconnectedness of this and that.
i think of it as: effeciency begets efficiency, or in a more universal sense, my perception is colored by my experience.
what you assert flavors your reception, and what you recieve flavors your assertion. i think that is the most concise i can describe it
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Jenfucius
[QUOTE=Rakesh]Karma is for people who like to limit themselves more than the world limits them already.
Just as anything and everything in the world, it only works as long as you believe it.
Its a neat way to keep the occult masses at bay and harmless though.[/QUOTE]
Actually karma and dharma is based on choices that one makes. Its really a choice. Its not a commandment.
People are reponsible for their own actions.
[QUOTE=Rakesh]Karma is for people who like to limit themselves more than the world limits them already.
Just as anything and everything in the world, it only works as long as you believe it.
Its a neat way to keep the occult masses at bay and harmless though.[/QUOTE]
Actually karma and dharma is based on choices that one makes. Its really a choice. Its not a commandment.
People are reponsible for their own actions.
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Rin Daemoko
The biggest misconception about karma stems
from the Western influence of Xianity. People
still believe that karma is like sin, and the
punishment of sin. Let me be one among many
who state that Karma is not about Sin!
Karma is the concept of cause and effect.
That's it. There isn't some big factory in the
sky that eats all of your choices, processes
them, and then spits them back out at you.
That would be a theory of punishment, which is
not an ethical precept because it teaches you
to be motivated by fear. Karma is not such a
thing.
If you decide to get drunk, and you end up
sleeping with a stranger and contracting an STD,
that is karma. The STD is not punishment for
getting drunk. Here's the best analogy I've
come across:
Say I'm stopped at a red light, when some guy
hits me from behind, sending my card forward
to smash the taillights of the guy in front of me.
If you ask you caused the smashed taillights,
the guy whose car I hit will say it's my fault, I
will say it's the guy behind me's fault. He will say
he fell asleep at the wheel because he didn't get
enough sleep last night because his neighbour's
dog wouldn't shut up. So, the real cause of the
smashed taillights is the idiot dog.
In reality, this chain of events (formally called
"Infinite Regress" in modern philosophy) can be
traced all the way back to the Big Bang itself.
That is karma.
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Rin Daemoko
I apologize for posting twice in a row, but
this topic kinda irks me. Karma is also about
responsibility. Karma agrees with Newton's
law that every action has an opposite and
equal re-action. It's simple logic.
If you go to a job interview dressed like a
slob, you will probably not get the job. Like-
wise, if you go a job interview dressed
professionally, then you will probably get
the job. That is karma.
If you want to lead a good life, then do
good things. A good life does not come
from cheating others, harming them, acting
like a jerk, and so on. People who do these
things tend to be more miserable.
Conversely, those who treat others with
kindness and respect, those who don't hold
grudges, those who find enjoyment in the
small things in life tend to be more fulfilled.
People want to be around them, people do
favors for them because they are a nice
person.
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Rakesh
Well, the original concept of karma, AFAIK, is somewhere along the lines of the universe basically being ONE, thus you kicking someone basically means youre kicking YOURSELF.
Well, the original concept of karma, AFAIK, is somewhere along the lines of the universe basically being ONE, thus you kicking someone basically means youre kicking YOURSELF.
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Gryzlgreedigutt
Your posts were very enlightening Rin. I admit lately I've really been thinking about this issue. Now when people start to question the validity of karma they get tons of people encouraging them away from such questions. Often, people like this are regarded as potentially dangerous merely for questioning it. Its just a method of control. Anybody with half a brain can see why its better to live as a good person with or without karma in the picture. A right wing CHristian may say you are evil and going to hell just for not believing in their God. But you can be enlightened enough to know that you don't need to live by the bible to be a good person. Frankly, if the only thing keeping you from monstrous acts is your fear of divine retribution , then perhaps you should sit very still and thik about yourself for a long time.
Your posts were very enlightening Rin. I admit lately I've really been thinking about this issue. Now when people start to question the validity of karma they get tons of people encouraging them away from such questions. Often, people like this are regarded as potentially dangerous merely for questioning it. Its just a method of control. Anybody with half a brain can see why its better to live as a good person with or without karma in the picture. A right wing CHristian may say you are evil and going to hell just for not believing in their God. But you can be enlightened enough to know that you don't need to live by the bible to be a good person. Frankly, if the only thing keeping you from monstrous acts is your fear of divine retribution , then perhaps you should sit very still and thik about yourself for a long time.
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Ludi
*
Rather terrifying, some Christians will actually say that the only thing keeping them from murdering others is God. Which seems to indicate they have neither conscience nor morality/ethics.Frankly, if the only thing keeping you from monstrous acts is your fear of divine retribution , then perhaps you should sit very still and thik about yourself for a long time.
*
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: punxzen
i was thinking about this
its similar to reincarnation. i personally think the idea of an individual soul that goes from one life to another rediculous, but i dont think its the idea of reincarnation that is rediculous. reincarnation is only as enlightened a concept as you make it.
the same applies to karma.
i was thinking about this
its similar to reincarnation. i personally think the idea of an individual soul that goes from one life to another rediculous, but i dont think its the idea of reincarnation that is rediculous. reincarnation is only as enlightened a concept as you make it.
the same applies to karma.
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Sarx
Hello
Thankyou for this thread, and for the opportunity to think about karma as I've been struggling to understand the concept as well.
I agree with Ren that the eastern and western concepts are very different.
Consider the following situation:
You have an object that you want to sell. You lie that it's worth $100 when it's actually worth only $1. The guy pays you $100 and takes his cheep item home. You feel happy about being richer even though you know it was a shady deal.....
In the west, most people would say that the lie was responsible for you getting $100. They would say that something external to the individual (god, energy, cosmic police force) exacts retribution and whacks you back: an eye for an eye or worse (three fold/ten fold law?)
The banana vendor on the street in the east may have share this perspective. However, the buddhist monastic teachings would say that this view is wrong because there is nothing acting outside your own mind...
*The buddhists would say that the two events: lying and getting money are completely unrelated. If lying caused the money, then lying should ALWAYS cause money and that is clearly not true (the guy might punch you in the nose instead of paying you). Furthermore, people who don't lie sometimes find themselves recieving unexpected money. If it is true that the events are completely unrelated, then lying on it's own is unpunishable- similar in consequence to going to where no one can hear you and announcing that you're a pink bunny rabbit. Lying becomes an act of karma only if you truly believe that declairing yourself a rabbit is a deliberate act of dishonesty.
*However, in this example, you've generated a mental quality of dishonesty (this can be either a conscious or subconscious). The mind is sort of a magnet in the physical world and it will attract or create an experience of dishonesty, being lied to or not believed in the future. Likewise, you recieved the $100 because you participated in an act of generosity in the past. Planting a mental seed in your mind stream (in this case dishonesty) acts in a similar way as a personal belief that you're a failure. The seed bears fruit when you act in a way that creates failure in your life.
To state that karma generates an oposite effect implies that there are cosmic book keepers out there. I think the mind stream is not designed for mathematics, no matter how simple. Like attracks like - no balancing act here! If you are unconditinally generous without attachment , then you will experience acts of generosity- usually in the form of somebody being generous towards you. The church teaches this as a moral act, but it is simply the universal principle of reflection.
This has some interesting implications (these are just ideas - I don't neccesarily claim that they are true):
a. it explains why evil persists. If The universe sent cosmic cops went after people who do evil things, then we should not have dynastic families that have prospered for centuries. These familes have more power and money than god, and the bulk of that wealth was derived from exploiting and destroying generations of people across nations. The wealth of these folks represents the perfect and positive manifestation of their mental seeds, and the consequences to others are unconsequential. (either that, or the karma cops are on the take!)
It sugests that if Hitler never had a real undersstanding that what he did was wrong- if he never got it- then he probably incurred little or no direct karma for his actions. In other words, while karma can be good or bad, it is not inherently moral (this is the biggest departure in principle from the western version). Consciousness is neutral ground.
The proof that karma is neutral (not moral or a trigger for retribution/cosmic cops): consider the diversity of cultures that connected human sacrifice with prosperity of the village. Killing hundreds in mesoAmerican sacrifices was connected with rich crops, many children and powerful warriors. In our culture, killing of hundreds leads to a world war and eternal condemnation. Killing isn't a karmic act, but the mental act associated with it is.
b. It explains why terrible tragic things happen to people who live spiritually pure or good simple lives (case in point-the lives of some of the saints, or why young children die of terrible diseases). Living a pure life didn't lead to suffering (as the church wants it's members to understand). The origin may be from mental seeds that were planted in a past life. Alternatively, the mental quality of living in fear or guilt or sorrow can create experiences in kind. That which you resist persists.
I find that this version of karma generates a lot of interesting insights into topics like sympathetic magic, words of power, etc.
This list has some wonderful members who are black-belts in eastern philosophy. Is my understanding of the eastern explaination of karma sortta correct??
Best wishes
Hello
Thankyou for this thread, and for the opportunity to think about karma as I've been struggling to understand the concept as well.
I agree with Ren that the eastern and western concepts are very different.
Consider the following situation:
You have an object that you want to sell. You lie that it's worth $100 when it's actually worth only $1. The guy pays you $100 and takes his cheep item home. You feel happy about being richer even though you know it was a shady deal.....
In the west, most people would say that the lie was responsible for you getting $100. They would say that something external to the individual (god, energy, cosmic police force) exacts retribution and whacks you back: an eye for an eye or worse (three fold/ten fold law?)
The banana vendor on the street in the east may have share this perspective. However, the buddhist monastic teachings would say that this view is wrong because there is nothing acting outside your own mind...
*The buddhists would say that the two events: lying and getting money are completely unrelated. If lying caused the money, then lying should ALWAYS cause money and that is clearly not true (the guy might punch you in the nose instead of paying you). Furthermore, people who don't lie sometimes find themselves recieving unexpected money. If it is true that the events are completely unrelated, then lying on it's own is unpunishable- similar in consequence to going to where no one can hear you and announcing that you're a pink bunny rabbit. Lying becomes an act of karma only if you truly believe that declairing yourself a rabbit is a deliberate act of dishonesty.
*However, in this example, you've generated a mental quality of dishonesty (this can be either a conscious or subconscious). The mind is sort of a magnet in the physical world and it will attract or create an experience of dishonesty, being lied to or not believed in the future. Likewise, you recieved the $100 because you participated in an act of generosity in the past. Planting a mental seed in your mind stream (in this case dishonesty) acts in a similar way as a personal belief that you're a failure. The seed bears fruit when you act in a way that creates failure in your life.
To state that karma generates an oposite effect implies that there are cosmic book keepers out there. I think the mind stream is not designed for mathematics, no matter how simple. Like attracks like - no balancing act here! If you are unconditinally generous without attachment , then you will experience acts of generosity- usually in the form of somebody being generous towards you. The church teaches this as a moral act, but it is simply the universal principle of reflection.
This has some interesting implications (these are just ideas - I don't neccesarily claim that they are true):
a. it explains why evil persists. If The universe sent cosmic cops went after people who do evil things, then we should not have dynastic families that have prospered for centuries. These familes have more power and money than god, and the bulk of that wealth was derived from exploiting and destroying generations of people across nations. The wealth of these folks represents the perfect and positive manifestation of their mental seeds, and the consequences to others are unconsequential. (either that, or the karma cops are on the take!)
It sugests that if Hitler never had a real undersstanding that what he did was wrong- if he never got it- then he probably incurred little or no direct karma for his actions. In other words, while karma can be good or bad, it is not inherently moral (this is the biggest departure in principle from the western version). Consciousness is neutral ground.
The proof that karma is neutral (not moral or a trigger for retribution/cosmic cops): consider the diversity of cultures that connected human sacrifice with prosperity of the village. Killing hundreds in mesoAmerican sacrifices was connected with rich crops, many children and powerful warriors. In our culture, killing of hundreds leads to a world war and eternal condemnation. Killing isn't a karmic act, but the mental act associated with it is.
b. It explains why terrible tragic things happen to people who live spiritually pure or good simple lives (case in point-the lives of some of the saints, or why young children die of terrible diseases). Living a pure life didn't lead to suffering (as the church wants it's members to understand). The origin may be from mental seeds that were planted in a past life. Alternatively, the mental quality of living in fear or guilt or sorrow can create experiences in kind. That which you resist persists.
I find that this version of karma generates a lot of interesting insights into topics like sympathetic magic, words of power, etc.
This list has some wonderful members who are black-belts in eastern philosophy. Is my understanding of the eastern explaination of karma sortta correct??
Best wishes
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Anathema_Oracle
When my friend went to Malaysia he came back with a hilarious booklet from a buddhist temple run by the Chinese buddhsit minority in kuala Lumpur.
Basically it was a cartoon of why your life is shit. Some examples of why are as follows:
Q: Why are you poor. A: Because in your past life you did not give money to beggars.
Q: Why am I always sick? A: Because in your past life you did not give charity to Monks
My favorite: Q: Why am I not able to have children. A: Because in your past life you beat your children.
Now although us Western diletantes may get out our berets out and speak of causal modalities and infinite regress, I have little doubt many pratictioners of buddhism, especially the therevada sects, believe it is a matter of punishment for actions, even actions you aren't aware of, even actions you were'nt even alive to do.
Karma is a punishment/reward system, as much as it can be disguised as a clever philosophical dialectic, it probably isn't, but if we've devised it as a sin-free, ethical humanist methodology then that's great.
But perhaps I'm putting the chicken before the egg in that how it is practised and understood by some, does not mean that's how it actually is meant to be. Good examples of this are Communism and christianity.
p.s This booklet of Karmic logic also had why is my life good scenarios, and funnily enough it involved giving money to monasteries among other things, amazing!
When my friend went to Malaysia he came back with a hilarious booklet from a buddhist temple run by the Chinese buddhsit minority in kuala Lumpur.
Basically it was a cartoon of why your life is shit. Some examples of why are as follows:
Q: Why are you poor. A: Because in your past life you did not give money to beggars.
Q: Why am I always sick? A: Because in your past life you did not give charity to Monks
My favorite: Q: Why am I not able to have children. A: Because in your past life you beat your children.
Now although us Western diletantes may get out our berets out and speak of causal modalities and infinite regress, I have little doubt many pratictioners of buddhism, especially the therevada sects, believe it is a matter of punishment for actions, even actions you aren't aware of, even actions you were'nt even alive to do.
Karma is a punishment/reward system, as much as it can be disguised as a clever philosophical dialectic, it probably isn't, but if we've devised it as a sin-free, ethical humanist methodology then that's great.
But perhaps I'm putting the chicken before the egg in that how it is practised and understood by some, does not mean that's how it actually is meant to be. Good examples of this are Communism and christianity.
p.s This booklet of Karmic logic also had why is my life good scenarios, and funnily enough it involved giving money to monasteries among other things, amazing!
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Rakesh
Actually, fear of punishment=the only thing standing between us and barbarism in most people. And yes, I mean even here.
If you KNEW you could get away with it, you would do it. Quaranteed. Let's see...robbing a bank...unthinkable, right? Now, imagine all the money kinda...dissapeared from the bank, and appeared in your locker. You wouldn't mind that idea, would you?
Actually, fear of punishment=the only thing standing between us and barbarism in most people. And yes, I mean even here.
If you KNEW you could get away with it, you would do it. Quaranteed. Let's see...robbing a bank...unthinkable, right? Now, imagine all the money kinda...dissapeared from the bank, and appeared in your locker. You wouldn't mind that idea, would you?
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Anathema_Oracle
Working in a law firm I know for a fact that the criminal legal system is the scariest machine since that evil cyborg in robocop II and if that wasn't there, I'd be stealing my lunch everyday and go joy riding in other people's porsches, hey, that's not very enlightened but Rakesh has a point
Working in a law firm I know for a fact that the criminal legal system is the scariest machine since that evil cyborg in robocop II and if that wasn't there, I'd be stealing my lunch everyday and go joy riding in other people's porsches, hey, that's not very enlightened but Rakesh has a point
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Ludi
*
That's such a strange idea. I tend to associate taking something with the idea of taking it *from* someone else. Since I don't want someone taking my stuff, I feel no desire to take someone else's stuff. Maybe I'm weird. I don't obey many laws, because I think most laws are stupid, but I do tend to think about how my behvior might hurt someone else.Actually, fear of punishment=the only thing standing between us and barbarism in most people. And yes, I mean even here.
If you KNEW you could get away with it, you would do it. Quaranteed. Let's see...robbing a bank...unthinkable, right? Now, imagine all the money kinda...dissapeared from the bank, and appeared in your locker. You wouldn't mind that idea, would you?
*
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Sud Ram
I find it interesting that some people find the need to create a cosmic retribution thing to evaluate and understand karma. You seem to underestimate your own consciousness.
There is no need for anything outside from ourselves to know what we do. You create your own feelings, thoughts and situations. If you rob a bank KNOWING that you can get away with it, this attachment to the illusion of victory over a social system will surely balance out into some kind of loss. Dualism will always show it's polarities within you. God has nothing to do with karma, it is your own responsability.
Peace
I find it interesting that some people find the need to create a cosmic retribution thing to evaluate and understand karma. You seem to underestimate your own consciousness.
There is no need for anything outside from ourselves to know what we do. You create your own feelings, thoughts and situations. If you rob a bank KNOWING that you can get away with it, this attachment to the illusion of victory over a social system will surely balance out into some kind of loss. Dualism will always show it's polarities within you. God has nothing to do with karma, it is your own responsability.
Peace
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: punxzen
[QUOTE=Rakesh]Actually, fear of punishment=the only thing standing between us and barbarism in most people. And yes, I mean even here.
If you KNEW you could get away with it, you would do it. Quaranteed. Let's see...robbing a bank...unthinkable, right? Now, imagine all the money kinda...dissapeared from the bank, and appeared in your locker. You wouldn't mind that idea, would you?[/QUOTE]
scary :!:
you are saying that if society doesnt impose a logical choice on you, your choice is going to be the one that brings the most to you even at the expense of others?
[QUOTE=Rakesh]Actually, fear of punishment=the only thing standing between us and barbarism in most people. And yes, I mean even here.
If you KNEW you could get away with it, you would do it. Quaranteed. Let's see...robbing a bank...unthinkable, right? Now, imagine all the money kinda...dissapeared from the bank, and appeared in your locker. You wouldn't mind that idea, would you?[/QUOTE]
scary :!:
you are saying that if society doesnt impose a logical choice on you, your choice is going to be the one that brings the most to you even at the expense of others?
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Rin Daemoko
I do agree that there are people who need
rules and theories of punishment in order
to stay in line. Our culture always seems
to have an internal duality of those who do
not commit crimes for fear of punishment,
and those who do not because it is wrong.
Those who ascribe to the fear theories are
also the ones who tend to break the law
the most frequently, and often for no good
reason.
The second group may still commit crimes,
however it is often for more enlightened
reasons. I should point out that such
occurrences are very few and far between.
I am not a fan of labelling these two systems
the same name. Because clearly the concept
(read: not a law) of karma is not applicable to
those who are motivated by fear (and therefore
commit crimes because they think they can get
away with it). For them, a theory such as the
threefold law would work. It is practical, but
not ethical.
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Ludi
For me, things are never duality, but rather multiplicity.
There is the system of making a choice not to commit a crime because one has no need to do so, or it simply is not expedient to do so. What need have I for someone else's things when I have plenty?
There is at least one other system.Our culture always seems
to have an internal duality of those who do
not commit crimes for fear of punishment,
and those who do not because it is wrong.
For me, things are never duality, but rather multiplicity.
There is the system of making a choice not to commit a crime because one has no need to do so, or it simply is not expedient to do so. What need have I for someone else's things when I have plenty?
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Frater Manjet
[QUOTE=punxzen]i think of it as: effeciency begets efficiency, or in a more universal sense, my perception is colored by my experience.
what you assert flavors your reception, and what you recieve flavors your assertion. i think that is the most concise i can describe it[/QUOTE]I will echo many of the sentiments posed here in regards to the common or exoteric understanding of karma as opposed to the more esoteric understandings.
There are many laws of karma ... the example above is one of my favorites. punxen actualy hits on a couple here, but I will only really point to one.
"Wherever you go, that's where you're at"
I consider this a law as it is immutable and cannot be avoided.
By the nature of subjective perception we all will see things how we will see them. This in turn creates the environment we exist in at the time.
One person could win the lottery, be sitting on a warm beach sipping margaritas and be unable to enjoy it as the thought of the 5 million the government took out of their winnings left them with only 10 million! constantly gnaws at them, and the waiter didn't put enough damn salt on the rim among endless other irritations. This person will always find themselves plagued by misfortune and annoyance no matter what the circumstance. Another can find 15$ on the street, toss a fiver into a charity bucket on the way home splurge the windfall on pizza with friends and relish every moment. Which of these two individuals had a more pleasant and fulfilling day? Which of these two will be more likely to have a more satisfying life?
"Wherever you go, that's where you're at"
... my two coppers
-VVV
[QUOTE=punxzen]i think of it as: effeciency begets efficiency, or in a more universal sense, my perception is colored by my experience.
what you assert flavors your reception, and what you recieve flavors your assertion. i think that is the most concise i can describe it[/QUOTE]I will echo many of the sentiments posed here in regards to the common or exoteric understanding of karma as opposed to the more esoteric understandings.
There are many laws of karma ... the example above is one of my favorites. punxen actualy hits on a couple here, but I will only really point to one.
"Wherever you go, that's where you're at"
I consider this a law as it is immutable and cannot be avoided.
By the nature of subjective perception we all will see things how we will see them. This in turn creates the environment we exist in at the time.
One person could win the lottery, be sitting on a warm beach sipping margaritas and be unable to enjoy it as the thought of the 5 million the government took out of their winnings left them with only 10 million! constantly gnaws at them, and the waiter didn't put enough damn salt on the rim among endless other irritations. This person will always find themselves plagued by misfortune and annoyance no matter what the circumstance. Another can find 15$ on the street, toss a fiver into a charity bucket on the way home splurge the windfall on pizza with friends and relish every moment. Which of these two individuals had a more pleasant and fulfilling day? Which of these two will be more likely to have a more satisfying life?
"Wherever you go, that's where you're at"
... my two coppers
-VVV
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Dunhill
[QUOTE=Sud Ram]I find it interesting that some people find the need to create a cosmic retribution thing to evaluate and understand karma. You seem to underestimate your own consciousness.
There is no need for anything outside from ourselves to know what we do. You create your own feelings, thoughts and situations. If you rob a bank KNOWING that you can get away with it, this attachment to the illusion of victory over a social system will surely balance out into some kind of loss. Dualism will always show it's polarities within you. God has nothing to do with karma, it is your own responsability.
Peace[/QUOTE]
So in effect you are responsible for your own good or bad fortune not necessarily based up on the action but upon the motivation of the action? Reminds me of Hellraiser III - We are here not for the hands but for the will (or something like that). However I still am a bit perplexed on the good/bad side of karma. I realize that there isn't a deity out there checking on if you are naughty or nice. But does this mean that the good/bad cosmic scale is actually the nature of the universe? That was probably a bad term. Consider swimming in a stream. The current goes one way - going with it is 'good' and against it 'bad'. It is up to you which way to swim. The stream doesn't judge - it simply is, but it is the gague against which the results of your actions are determined. In this sense it does seem to be similar to the original concept of sin and missing the mark, there is just a different mark aimed at.
[QUOTE=Sud Ram]I find it interesting that some people find the need to create a cosmic retribution thing to evaluate and understand karma. You seem to underestimate your own consciousness.
There is no need for anything outside from ourselves to know what we do. You create your own feelings, thoughts and situations. If you rob a bank KNOWING that you can get away with it, this attachment to the illusion of victory over a social system will surely balance out into some kind of loss. Dualism will always show it's polarities within you. God has nothing to do with karma, it is your own responsability.
Peace[/QUOTE]
So in effect you are responsible for your own good or bad fortune not necessarily based up on the action but upon the motivation of the action? Reminds me of Hellraiser III - We are here not for the hands but for the will (or something like that). However I still am a bit perplexed on the good/bad side of karma. I realize that there isn't a deity out there checking on if you are naughty or nice. But does this mean that the good/bad cosmic scale is actually the nature of the universe? That was probably a bad term. Consider swimming in a stream. The current goes one way - going with it is 'good' and against it 'bad'. It is up to you which way to swim. The stream doesn't judge - it simply is, but it is the gague against which the results of your actions are determined. In this sense it does seem to be similar to the original concept of sin and missing the mark, there is just a different mark aimed at.
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Rin Daemoko
Karma does not have any sides. It simply is.
It is literally "cause and effect." Chemistry
will teach you about cause and effect quite
effectively. Karma is not a faculty of existence,
it is an inescapable reality. Things cause
other things to happen. That's karma.
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Frater Manjet
Karma does not have any sides. It simply is.
Karma does not have any sides. It simply is.
It is literally "cause and effect." Chemistry
will teach you about cause and effect quite
effectively. Karma is not a faculty of existence,
it is an inescapable reality. Things cause
other things to happen. That's karma.
Very well stated...
I liken it much to effects such as gravity. If you jump off a cliff gravity pulls you down. Gravity did not judge to do so because you were stupid or any other reason.
One of the lessons I get from karma is that the more of anything you put out into the world more of it you will find around you. For example, the more you act like an asshat and disrespect the people you meet the more likely you will be met with similar disrespect. There is no cosmic judgement being played out here... just simple common sense.
...my two coppers
-VVV
edit... well Rin it seems I am having difficulty with the formatting of your quote. No matter how I try to fix it it comes out skewed LOL!
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Rin Daemoko
[QUOTE=Frater Manjet]I liken it much to effects such as gravity. If you jump off a cliff gravity pulls you down. Gravity did not judge to do so because you were stupid or any other reason.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Frater Manjet]I liken it much to effects such as gravity. If you jump off a cliff gravity pulls you down. Gravity did not judge to do so because you were stupid or any other reason.[/QUOTE]
That is the perfect analogy of karmic occurrence!
(P.S. Why is it that whenever someone quotes me,
the formating is so messed up?)
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Frater Manjet
[QUOTE=Rin Daemoko]
edit: Hrmmm this one worked?????
[QUOTE=Rin Daemoko]
That is the perfect analogy of karmic occurrence.
(P.S. Why is it that whenever someone quotes me,
the formating is so messed up?)
[/QUOTE]I have no idea....It will look fine in the text box until I preveiw or submit then all sorts of strange things happen! I am glad I am not the only one.edit: Hrmmm this one worked?????