Original post: Anathema_Oracle
Whenever I get the feeling that "things just are the way they are" I like to go back through history and see where humans have said that they cant understand something and then skip a couple of decades and see they've worked it out, and even discovered things they never even knew existed in the first place.
If you want examples look at theories (yes I realise theory intimates theoretical) such as quantum mechanics (novel eh) gravity and relativity.
Then look at airoplanes and jet engines, man landing on the moon, splitting the atom, discovery of DNA, discovery of Bacteria instead of (miasma) etc.
Although pretty unpopular in OF for obvious reasons, logic has alot of great advantages to just accepting things as they are, but not always eh!
Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: punxzen
totally, logic is essential for most kinds of communication, and extremely useful when it comes to practicing a skill or what have you. i wouldn't say i am advocating that we just accept things as they are. i think it is important to delve into these topics, but i also think its important for someone to pull everyone away from the concept and try to point out a different angle to approach it from, from time to time. i spose im takin on that role here ..
i think i was likening karma to things like those you mentioned, quantum theory, gravity, and relativity. each of those things has been torn apart and fed to students of science and even accepted by scientists as some kind of crucial principle of our objective cosmology. this may be true on a level which is rarely if ever grasped by students and i would venture to say most physicists/chemists/etc. this would be my main concern when it comes to trying to apply your current rationale(anyone's, not just yours oracle) to the concept of karma. i spose im concerned that you might not be able to really get a feel for the concept if you try to delineate or dissect a single dimension of it without regard to the overall nature of what it is you are looking into.
those fundamental principles of modern physics have been dissected and diluted for ease of acceptance by the masses, and i think that this is kind of my point if i have one, that perhaps this is what religions did to karma, they dissected it and diluted it for the masses to more easily assimilate it into their cosmology. i wasnt really arguing against what you said, or at least, im not anymore, im more using the things you said to find a good vantage point from which to observe this interesting phenomenon, and it just so happens that in the process i caught a glimpse of something that seemed important which i am attempting to point out... whether or not i was/am succesful is certainly debatable :p
i rather like this forum because i can use a certain blurry rationale which i have faith that at least someone will comprehend and potentially gain insight from...
totally, logic is essential for most kinds of communication, and extremely useful when it comes to practicing a skill or what have you. i wouldn't say i am advocating that we just accept things as they are. i think it is important to delve into these topics, but i also think its important for someone to pull everyone away from the concept and try to point out a different angle to approach it from, from time to time. i spose im takin on that role here ..
i think i was likening karma to things like those you mentioned, quantum theory, gravity, and relativity. each of those things has been torn apart and fed to students of science and even accepted by scientists as some kind of crucial principle of our objective cosmology. this may be true on a level which is rarely if ever grasped by students and i would venture to say most physicists/chemists/etc. this would be my main concern when it comes to trying to apply your current rationale(anyone's, not just yours oracle) to the concept of karma. i spose im concerned that you might not be able to really get a feel for the concept if you try to delineate or dissect a single dimension of it without regard to the overall nature of what it is you are looking into.
those fundamental principles of modern physics have been dissected and diluted for ease of acceptance by the masses, and i think that this is kind of my point if i have one, that perhaps this is what religions did to karma, they dissected it and diluted it for the masses to more easily assimilate it into their cosmology. i wasnt really arguing against what you said, or at least, im not anymore, im more using the things you said to find a good vantage point from which to observe this interesting phenomenon, and it just so happens that in the process i caught a glimpse of something that seemed important which i am attempting to point out... whether or not i was/am succesful is certainly debatable :p
i rather like this forum because i can use a certain blurry rationale which i have faith that at least someone will comprehend and potentially gain insight from...
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Anathema_Oracle
[QUOTE=punxzen]totally, logic is essential for most kinds of communication, and extremely useful when it comes to practicing a skill or what have you. i wouldn't say i am advocating that we just accept things as they are. i think it is important to delve into these topics, but i also think its important for someone to pull everyone away from the concept and try to point out a different angle to approach it from, from time to time. i spose im takin on that role here ..
i rather like this forum because i can use a certain blurry rationale which i have faith that at least someone will comprehend and potentially gain insight from...[/QUOTE]
Amen brother, differant angles, precisely, I have no conceptual skill with the cryptic crossowrd and I can't see the hidden picture in the magic eye illusions, so you have a point, an excellent point IMHO
[QUOTE=punxzen]totally, logic is essential for most kinds of communication, and extremely useful when it comes to practicing a skill or what have you. i wouldn't say i am advocating that we just accept things as they are. i think it is important to delve into these topics, but i also think its important for someone to pull everyone away from the concept and try to point out a different angle to approach it from, from time to time. i spose im takin on that role here ..
i rather like this forum because i can use a certain blurry rationale which i have faith that at least someone will comprehend and potentially gain insight from...[/QUOTE]
Amen brother, differant angles, precisely, I have no conceptual skill with the cryptic crossowrd and I can't see the hidden picture in the magic eye illusions, so you have a point, an excellent point IMHO
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Ludi
But, you see, if we change what the words "cause and effect" mean, then we are talking about something else, like, maybe, karma.perhaps you could try to relax your understanding of cause and effect to open it up to the possibility
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Anathema_Oracle
those crazy kids at TOPY have presaged this topic somewhat..
http://www.topy.net/chaos_karma.html
Don't take it literally or you'll be spelling rather insanely
those crazy kids at TOPY have presaged this topic somewhat..
http://www.topy.net/chaos_karma.html
Don't take it literally or you'll be spelling rather insanely
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Dunhill
The causes and effects are not always immediately apparent nor immediately manifest.
Although ignorace is no excuse in a legal sense, it does seem to be so in a karmic sense.
I had to think about 'karma is inertia' for a while before I finally got it. If you act a certain way, you will continue to act that way. 'You can't teach an old dog new tricks' for example. As such if you are continually a jerk, eventually you will be treated as a jerk. Likewise if you are nice to people they have a tendency to be nice back. So you might as well be nice because in the end, there is only you.
The causes and effects are not always immediately apparent nor immediately manifest.
Although ignorace is no excuse in a legal sense, it does seem to be so in a karmic sense.
I had to think about 'karma is inertia' for a while before I finally got it. If you act a certain way, you will continue to act that way. 'You can't teach an old dog new tricks' for example. As such if you are continually a jerk, eventually you will be treated as a jerk. Likewise if you are nice to people they have a tendency to be nice back. So you might as well be nice because in the end, there is only you.
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Spes
You people talk here about karma but when we are talking about cause and effect it seems natural to everyone we are counting only fellow humans in this system. But what about animals, Earth and hundred other things? Why it is so natural to count only humans when we talking about karma. "When you screw others you screw yourself"? For exsample some modern witches have one important rule "don't do harm to other beings unless you are willing to suffer same way or worse as Universe might consider harm in mysterious ways".
How about killing life in general at all then? If I break a flower, I kill in fact. Surely this is extreme exsample but even if we don't count our willing actions against nature or lesser animals, what about involuntary harm against other lifeforms? It seems to be as long as we do not harm anything willingly we feel Ok - that's ignorance in my opinion and whole meaning of karma would loose it's point. "What I do not know does not bother me" when I step on little worm but when I willingly smash it with my boot I did a bad thing?
The way how humans exist currently makes following idea of karma quite impossible. But then again I tend to fall towards perfectionism so what do you folks think about my view on karma?
You people talk here about karma but when we are talking about cause and effect it seems natural to everyone we are counting only fellow humans in this system. But what about animals, Earth and hundred other things? Why it is so natural to count only humans when we talking about karma. "When you screw others you screw yourself"? For exsample some modern witches have one important rule "don't do harm to other beings unless you are willing to suffer same way or worse as Universe might consider harm in mysterious ways".
How about killing life in general at all then? If I break a flower, I kill in fact. Surely this is extreme exsample but even if we don't count our willing actions against nature or lesser animals, what about involuntary harm against other lifeforms? It seems to be as long as we do not harm anything willingly we feel Ok - that's ignorance in my opinion and whole meaning of karma would loose it's point. "What I do not know does not bother me" when I step on little worm but when I willingly smash it with my boot I did a bad thing?
The way how humans exist currently makes following idea of karma quite impossible. But then again I tend to fall towards perfectionism so what do you folks think about my view on karma?
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Ludi
Of course our actions affect all other things, to some degree.
Ignorance is bliss, they say."What I do not know does not bother me"
Of course our actions affect all other things, to some degree.
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: intangiblechaos
There's a very simple thing to learn from this astounding observation of contradiction:
Most "religions" or even forms of thought have a few different... let's call them levels. Things/explainations for "stupid poor people". This is to console them and make sure they don't act out of control and moronic, also to help them understand enough that they might be able to understand the higher more "intelligent" stuff. There's also other social control issues and poverty issues to be taken into account for each culture.
After that there is stuff for initiates, guideways to higher consciousness, and other stuff. The reason for doing this? Well, obviously the average person isn't going to reach quite as far as an adept, nor understand quite as much, but that doesn't mean they should be without some kind of guidance to at least help them be relatively happy.
On top of that, sometimes it's best to give some people SOME kind of idea of the negative effects of if everyone just ran around slaughtering things.
There's a very simple thing to learn from this astounding observation of contradiction:
Most "religions" or even forms of thought have a few different... let's call them levels. Things/explainations for "stupid poor people". This is to console them and make sure they don't act out of control and moronic, also to help them understand enough that they might be able to understand the higher more "intelligent" stuff. There's also other social control issues and poverty issues to be taken into account for each culture.
After that there is stuff for initiates, guideways to higher consciousness, and other stuff. The reason for doing this? Well, obviously the average person isn't going to reach quite as far as an adept, nor understand quite as much, but that doesn't mean they should be without some kind of guidance to at least help them be relatively happy.
On top of that, sometimes it's best to give some people SOME kind of idea of the negative effects of if everyone just ran around slaughtering things.
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Anathema_Oracle
So karma is:
a.) A social contract designed to control the lower orders?
b.) An interesting interpretation of causal laws?
c.) It just is a la synchronicity?
d.) None of the above?
Multiple choice occultism, now that's a winner!
So karma is:
a.) A social contract designed to control the lower orders?
b.) An interesting interpretation of causal laws?
c.) It just is a la synchronicity?
d.) None of the above?
Multiple choice occultism, now that's a winner!
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: captaincrappy
Well, here is my opinion on the whole Karma thingâ?¦
*Each person makes there own. If you go around poking people in the eye then sooner or later some one will poke you back. Like cause and effect.
*If you believe that if you do something that is bad karma, then you probably will have it come back to you since you are worried about it happening. The reverse for good karma. This is your subconscious or inner self reaction to what you believe.
To each person karma means something different. We each take something different from the teacher even though he taught us the same thing at the same time. You probably will take this belief with you to the next level or not depending on how you view the whole ascension thing.
It comes down to a simple thing really. Karma is what it is to you and we are our own universe.
Opinions can be wrong so take it with a grain of salt.
Well, here is my opinion on the whole Karma thingâ?¦
*Each person makes there own. If you go around poking people in the eye then sooner or later some one will poke you back. Like cause and effect.
*If you believe that if you do something that is bad karma, then you probably will have it come back to you since you are worried about it happening. The reverse for good karma. This is your subconscious or inner self reaction to what you believe.
To each person karma means something different. We each take something different from the teacher even though he taught us the same thing at the same time. You probably will take this belief with you to the next level or not depending on how you view the whole ascension thing.
It comes down to a simple thing really. Karma is what it is to you and we are our own universe.
Opinions can be wrong so take it with a grain of salt.
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: Nicholas777
But see that IS cause and effect. Usually when I hear about karma its under the guise of something bad happening and a source not being able to be found. So some blame it on Karma as a way of blaming themselves rather than blame the victimizer. I've even heard a girl say that rape happens because of peoples karma, this is the level of delusion that some of these beleivers in karma can sink too.
*
That's self fufilling prophecy. Not karma.
Yes BUT various eastern traditions are quite clear as to their veiws of Karma and American veiws of karma are so completely different that they often bear no resemblance to the eastern ideas of karma.
Nicholas
captaincrappy] If you go around poking people in the eye then sooner or later some one will poke you back. Like cause and effect.
But see that IS cause and effect. Usually when I hear about karma its under the guise of something bad happening and a source not being able to be found. So some blame it on Karma as a way of blaming themselves rather than blame the victimizer. I've even heard a girl say that rape happens because of peoples karma, this is the level of delusion that some of these beleivers in karma can sink too.
*
If you believe that if you do something that is bad karma, then you probably will have it come back to you since you are worried about it happening. The reverse for good karma. This is your subconscious or inner self reaction to what you believe.
That's self fufilling prophecy. Not karma.
To each person karma means something different.
Yes BUT various eastern traditions are quite clear as to their veiws of Karma and American veiws of karma are so completely different that they often bear no resemblance to the eastern ideas of karma.
Nicholas
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Karma, a Law for the Ignorant?
Original post: captaincrappy
Hence the "Like cause and effect"If you go around poking people in the eye then sooner or later some one will poke you back. Like cause and effect.
But see that IS cause and effect.
But is it really Karma that is doing this? If the sourse is not found then why would it Karma? am confused... Again...."Usually when I hear about karma its under the guise of something bad happening and a source not being able to be found. So some blame it on Karma as a way of blaming themselves rather than blame the victimizer. I've even heard a girl say that rape happens because of peoples karma, this is the level of delusion that some of these beleivers in karma can sink too."
Hence the "This is your subconscious or inner self reaction to what you believe."
If you believe that if you do something that is bad karma, then you probably will have it come back to you since you are worried about it happening. The reverse for good karma. This is your subconscious or inner self reaction to what you believe.
That's self fufilling prophecy. Not karma.
So if the Eastern views and THAT different then the Western views witch one is right? (heh, joke). sorry, will stop now... I agree that some people delude them selfs about karma but as I only have opinions on this I was just trying to add my 2 cents. (heh, waiting on my change..)To each person karma means something different.
Yes BUT various eastern traditions are quite clear as to their veiws of Karma and American veiws of karma are so completely different that they often bear no resemblance to the eastern ideas of karma.