Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

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dRider
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Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

Post by dRider »

I have an idea on why spirits don’t [usually] want something we would consider valuable to them in return for working with them. This is not the end all truth, necessarily, but a possible new idea to explore. Brobdingnag said in "Can the Necronomicon be performed" under "Spell Sharing" that,
I can't say what entities want or not. I would doubt they'd want anything because they are spiritual beings and you have nothing to offer them other than working with them, acknowledging them, allowing them to share knowledge with you etc.
I mean, like, what can you offer a god for instance - what's the point if you need to offer something. You must understand these beings are above all that. We humans think that they must be like us - in my experience with the 50 Names they are not like us i.e. they're not asking for some money, or gold etc. They're happy that you work with them.
Others say that you absolutely need to have this, that, or the other as a ritual sacrifice or offering, like sulfur for a fire elemental. Others still say that it’s a good idea to have stuff like that on hand, but some spirits will want something physical and some won’t. Of course, one can always argue the notion of equivalent exchange from the anime, Fullmetal Alchemist, and while this is an anime, it’s basic precept still holds worth. However, perhaps this is just a sacrifice or offering for our own good, like has been said that the scent of a particular incense bringing about subconscious parts of ourselves that make particular invocations or other rituals easier for us, whereas the spirits couldn’t care less.

Also, it could very well be that some spirits, like fire elementals, are truly drawn to a physical substance we’ve brought out to entice them with, merely for its properties as a rather fiery substance. Certain incenses, like Mugwort as was and is used in China for summoning, can and probably do have effects like this. But that doesn’t necessarily explain why some people think (and probably also have good reason to believe) that nothing is for free, and why others can perform all rituals in their heads with absolutely no physical offering and get the Maker itself to lend its energy.

I think that the expansion of the human consciousness and the evolvement of our spiritual bodies is the goal of most spirits in orbit of our spatial and spiritual realm. I think that we, in our little abode floating through the heavens, is something like a project. To elaborate is an explanation of where I got this idea:

The College of Metaphysics and branching Schools of’ have a method of accessing the akashic records much like Edgar Cayce did for his healings and readings. They have a reporter, who goes into the trance to read the records, and a conductor who the reporter is trained to work with, that can ask questions to generally guide the query. They have many uses for these readings but one of them, for at least 30 years now, has been to record information taken from lifetimes during what they call the Atlantean period. Now, I don’t even know my own self whether Atlantis existed or not, as there are so many credible ideas that prove both that it did and did not. However, what they got out of those peerings into the records was information on lives both human and not, of people who (as the reporter depicts) had specific goals such as to find out just how much oxygen it takes to support “such and such” sized entity, how much of what food to eat, how to make the planet grow such foods naturally to support higher organisms, what range of hormones it takes to run this or that body properly, and so on.

Millions of years of this produced a generally humanoid body with generally humanoid goals, eventually leading to the magnificent crystal technologies and civilization which Plato described. That is not to say that humans were the overall goal and most wonderful thing to come out of it, simply that it did happen, and we happen to be human, so why not use that as a reference. This is all entailed in a book titled Remembering Atlantis which goes on to summarize that the development of complex thoughts and emotions, as well as connections to the akashic records and astral planes themselves, were experimented with and is why, today, we can do what we do with our minds. Their take is that the peoples from the Pleiades (advanced and generally like angels to us), Sirius (sister spirits, so to speak), and Alpha Centauri (advanced but still physical species) all have their part and interests in developing us, as well as now ascended masters and other enlightened human spirits.

Again, this may all be drivel, and if you choose to see it that way, so be it. Like I said, even I who’ve read into it awhile have trouble with some of the suppositions. But at least take away from this concept one notion: that perhaps the master animal spirits, great citizens of the cosmos, and ascended masters of our own people have an interest not only in making bargains with us, but in seeing us reach for our rightful place among them. Maybe this is why they don’t care whether we have something to offer them except experiences, sweat and the jovial delight it brings them to see us continuously trip over our own psyche.

dRider

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

Post by brobdingnag »

Hi there - I see you quoted me. I wouldn't consider myself the know-all not in such matters and my repertoire of magickal systems is limited.
I was just trying to help someone get past some definite bullshit someone told him. I mean, he was telling this guy that he was in debt to spirits even before he started workings.
Some people take the karma thing too far. My view is a very different.
Also I was talking about my experiences with the Necronomicon 50 names (and a few other systems). The 50 names - never ask or take. The fact is, when we take one direction we automatically take away from another set of possibilities that (just maybe) we might have liked better. I mean, it's not someone coming to judge you or trade-off, it's just the way it is: magick or not. Some people, rarely know themselves well enough and then go for practical (material results) stuff. It works and then obviously you see there's some "bad" in it too. People say this is karma or justice or retribution or the spirit talking from you. I say it's just the way it is even in the mundane world. We drill oil, resources get lost, people use it, pollution, greed, corruption etc. Then again, we travel faster, we have warm homes in winter (or AC's in summer) etc. I mean it's a trade-off and we should be balanced. No different in magick.
I've never believed in black or white, but there is black and white in every single thing. Nothing perfectly matches ALL of our ideals - not in this life. Karma exists in everything.
I've tried to good stuff to people but's always a negative with the positive. That's also why the dogmatic religions (which do have quite a bit of the magickal mysteries in them for the initiate - you just need to know how to cut through the bullshit) often say that always try to see the good (white) when bad (black) things happen. It's really our perception causing karma. We need to work to stillness - divine indifference. For well is it written, judge not that ye be not judged, for with the same measure that ye judge it shall be meted out you. This is pure psychology and totally accurate. The judging creates the karmic situation.

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

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I know, there are many crazies out there. I mean, why mess with drug dealers or mafia in the first place when you know you'll be in their pocket? The problem with mass religion though, is that unless you already have an unbendable will it'll be near to impossible to avoid their subconscious advances. I would love to believe in easy eternal salvation the way Christians depict it, and could never denounce the existence of one being or another, but trying to be Christian just makes me, personally, terrified that every little thing I do will damn me to the pit of hell, forever. Screw that!

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

Post by brobdingnag »

dRider wrote:I know, there are many crazies out there. I mean, why mess with drug dealers or mafia in the first place when you know you'll be in their pocket? The problem with mass religion though, is that unless you already have an unbendable will it'll be near to impossible to avoid their subconscious advances. I would love to believe in easy eternal salvation the way Christians depict it, and could never denounce the existence of one being or another, but trying to be Christian just makes me, personally, terrified that every little thing I do will damn me to the pit of hell, forever. Screw that!
I see what you mean about mainstream religion - i was raised in a very conservative christian environment. It's troublesome.
Once you see past the bullshit, there's plenty of magickal stuff in there - but you've got to stop going to the sermons. Their interpretation via their own "divine revelation" is the problem.

Have you tried reading up on Biblical or Christian/Catholic magick? There's plenty of stuff online.

PS: there's no such thing as salvation as it is commonly defined in orthodox religious circles.

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

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dRider wrote:I have an idea on why spirits don’t [usually] want something we would consider valuable to them in return for working with them. This is not the end all truth, necessarily, but a possible new idea to explore. Brobdingnag said in "Can the Necronomicon be performed" under "Spell Sharing" that,
I can't say what entities want or not. I would doubt they'd want anything because they are spiritual beings and you have nothing to offer them other than working with them, acknowledging them, allowing them to share knowledge with you etc.
I mean, like, what can you offer a god for instance - what's the point if you need to offer something. You must understand these beings are above all that. We humans think that they must be like us - in my experience with the 50 Names they are not like us i.e. they're not asking for some money, or gold etc. They're happy that you work with them.
They say that you absolutely need to have this, that, or the other as a ritual sacrifice or offering, like sulfur for a fire elemental. Others still say that it’s a good idea to have stuff like that on hand, but some spirits will want something physical and some won’t. Of course, one can always argue the notion of equivalent exchange from the anime, Fullmetal Alchemist, and while this is an anime, it’s basic precept still holds worth. However, perhaps this is just a sacrifice or offering for our own good, like has been said that the scent of a particular incense bringing about subconscious parts of ourselves that make particular invocations or other rituals easier for us, whereas the spirits couldn’t care less.

Also, it could very well be that some spirits, like fire elementals, are truly drawn to a physical substance we’ve brought out to entice them with, merely for its properties as a rather fiery substance. Certain incenses, like Mugwort as was and is used in China for summoning, can and probably do have effects like this. But that doesn’t necessarily explain why some people think (and probably also have good reason to believe) that nothing is for free, and why others can perform all rituals in their heads with absolutely no physical offering and get the Maker itself to lend its energy.

I think that the expansion of the human consciousness and the evolvement of our spiritual bodies is the goal of most spirits in orbit of our spatial and spiritual realm. I think that we, in our little abode floating through the heavens, is something like a project. To elaborate is an explanation of where I got this idea:

The College of Metaphysics and branching Schools of’ have a method of accessing the akashic records much like Edgar Cayce did for his healings and readings. They have a reporter, who goes into the trance to read the records, and a conductor who the reporter is trained to work with, that can ask questions to generally guide the query. They have many uses for these readings but one of them, for at least 30 years now, has been to record information taken from lifetimes during what they call the Atlantean period. Now, I don’t even know my own self whether Atlantis existed or not, as there are so many credible ideas that prove both that it did and did not. However, what they got out of those peerings into the records was information on lives both human and not, of people who (as the reporter depicts) had specific goals such as to find out just how much oxygen it takes to support “such and such” sized entity, how much of what food to eat, how to make the planet grow such foods naturally to support higher organisms, what range of hormones it takes to run this or that body properly, and so on.

Millions of years of this produced a generally humanoid body with generally humanoid goals, eventually leading to the magnificent crystal technologies and civilization which Plato described. That is not to say that humans were the overall goal and most wonderful thing to come out of it, simply that it did happen, and we happen to be human, so why not use that as a reference. This is all entailed in a book titled Remembering Atlantis which goes on to summarize that the development of complex thoughts and emotions, as well as connections to the akashic records and astral planes themselves, were experimented with and is why, today, we can do what we do with our minds. Their take is that the peoples from the Pleiades (advanced and generally like angels to us), Sirius (sister spirits, so to speak), and Alpha Centauri (advanced but still physical species) all have their part and interests in developing us, as well as now ascended masters and other enlightened human spirits.

Again, this may all be drivel, and if you choose to see it that way, so be it. Like I said, even I who’ve read into it awhile have trouble with some of the suppositions. But at least take away from this concept one notion: that perhaps the master animal spirits, great citizens of the cosmos, and ascended masters of our own people have an interest not only in making bargains with us, but in seeing us reach for our rightful place among them. Maybe this is why they don’t care whether we have something to offer them except experiences, sweat and the jovial delight it brings them to see us continuously trip over our own psyche.

dRider
There are several things to address here and I don't know if it is my mood but I really enjoyed reading your questions. First off as you alure to there are many different spirits, each having different wants and desires. Not all want or need an offering or sacrifice in exchange for what they offer, however the catch all explanation for even the spirits that want something even if they can't use it is that, an offering or sacrifice can be seen as effort. Putting forth effort can be seen as a form of respect.

Imagine you are an old or ancient being and when you aren't trolling your front yard to keep the damn kids off your lawn you generally like to relax and sit on your porch rocking in your chair while you smoke your pipe. Now imagine someone running up to your gate knocking like crazy who wants to have access to all your knowledge and is rather impatient (remember time difference between our worlds). You just gonna give out your wisdom and knowledge? Now imagine you get these requests all the time. Maybe you don't want to be a knowledge slut, maybe you want to be wined and dined to make it feel the person who wants what you have actually cares and respects you. An offering or sacrifice can show that to some.

Some spirits just want to be contacted in a way that respects them. Some only respect strength. It rather varies.

Then there are some spirits can actually use what you offer them, I think the best example is something like the fire elemental you mentioned. Try to remember there are many different planes of existence, some are much closer to our reality than others. From what I know elementals are very close to ours, so much that they have direct connections to the physical reality. Some things they like because they are rare, and when you mention sulfur for fire elemental I hear the joke "it's like cat nip".

If you have any others questions let me know, or if I didn't answer something. And for the record I haven't ever given an offering or sacrifice, my perspective is a bit more from the spirits point of view.

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

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Once you see past the bullshit, there's plenty of magickal stuff in there - but you've got to stop going to the sermons. Their interpretation via their own "divine revelation" is the problem.
Ain't that the truth; I live in Tulsa, OK, Bible Belt, and it's exceptionally difficult to find someone REAL willing to admit they have something that works to teach. Even then, they want me to go through their 30 week course, one session a week, or pay ungodly amounts of money. That very School of Metaphysics does this very thing; they put me through the course, which doesn't purport to show me any grand truth mind you, but simply is supposed to teach me how to improve my consciousness/awareness in a group setting. That's their introductory course which one must finish if one wants to go on to better classes in the college. But for all their differentness of being a School of "Metaphysics," their classes are dull and boxed in, thinker-wise. By the time I got to week 8 of that class, I hadn't learned anything I didn't already know, and they kept starting me over with new students as by week 8 all the other students kept dropping out.

That class is an insult to someone who's already spent years trying to unlock his consciousness and it almost seems designed to retard your ability to grow in ways not approved by the school after you "graduate." I.e. you wouldn't be able to go on and easily assimilate new learnings into your repertoier of skills. As happens with many colleges and all public schools in the US, it would take years of therapy for your mind after all those weekly classes to be able to look into anything new. Everything they advocate is lovey dovey, extremely peace filled to the point that the intermediate students lose their souls to the cause. It's too bad too, as the ones which have long since graduated have come into some really interesting knowledge. Dr.'s Condron (married couple higher up in the college) are exceptional dream interpreters and are themselves a reporter and conductor.

I actually haven't been to a sermon in something like a decade. It's a neurosis of sorts, a schizophrenia that simply makes me afraid of my every thought. My saving grace is my ability to believe in and then drop something on the spot. I often read things which seem logical, and find myself a wholehearted advocate of that thing, even willing to preach it till I find something even more interesting to tell the world about. Then, other times, I find myself in possession of a belief that seems to hinder, hold me back, or even hurt me (like Christianity does). I can rid myself of the belief in just two days, most of the time.

I haven't read into Catholic or Biblical magick, though I've heard that it exists. I'll have to add it to my list of things to study.
Not all want or need an offering or sacrifice in exchange for what they offer, however the catch all explanation for even the spirits that want something even if they can't use it is that, an offering or sacrifice can be seen as effort. Putting forth effort can be seen as a form of respect.
And my respect they certainly have. It's taken me so many years to learn to be steadfast to my goal, and I guess I should be greatful I didn't learn it while attending the School of M. But now that I have learned it, I really want to get involved. I can't wait till I have my own place to stay again, I can't wait till I can finally get involved in ritual work. I've learned some basic ritual openings and protection/consecration rituals from the Taoist I Ching era, such as using the Japanese god Fudo (wisdom and fire) to ward off unwanted energies from a temple. But even this is in my mind, a visualized ritual process. I also can't wait till I can get my hands on the book Akimbomoss talks about, The Art of Dreaming by Carlos Castaneda.

OOOH, I hate being stuck in a dorm.

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

Post by brobdingnag »

I think Stukov's got the same idea as I do about the spirit thing. They are more keen on your engagement. And yeah, human spirits (closer to us) might want stuff.
Not all though - different kinds of humans too.
As for unlocking consciousness - have you tried free form meditation? It's very useful -over extended periods of time (6 months +). It's for life, I mean you need to keep at it. You'll get to places you've never been inside of you.

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

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I've never heard it as freeform, but I've tried both what's been called focused and unfocused meditations. ...the first with candles, the second by emptying my mind of all thought as is easy for one with ADD. My problem has always been keeping at it for more than, well, two or three days. It's something I hope I've gotten over, I really want to see where the Path takes me, finally. I've never found anything special in meditation other than relaxation, but again, never tried it for extended periods.

Also, I've heard so many things about both directions: work harder; don't work too hard. I've heard that the Tibetan monks meditate sometimes for six hours or more. While I'm sure they work up to that from earlier periods in their lives, and were pretty much born into such a life so they're more used to it, I've always wanted to gain such mental mastery. At the same time, a guy I've spoken to has experience in an electrical form of body power(s) and chi work, as opposed to chemical-hormonal/breath, which the way he describes it has the capacity to injure a person if he doesn't have a trainer able to guide him. [stroke, muscle and bone strain, blowing out an organ, or simply "burning out" on the skill in a more metaphorical sense] The electrical method is both safer and more powerful in the end, but far more difficult to attain. He says that overworking even after becoming used to it is possibly dangerous and in the end totally unnecessary. Really small amounts of more accurate and efficient trainings could have more results than overdoing it.

I've always been too unsure and in my lack of knowledge/master on hand, tend to lose interest. This is something I'm remedying as we speak. After all, if I never start, I'll certainly never get there whether it's good or bad.

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

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dRider wrote:I've never heard it as freeform, but I've tried both what's been called focused and unfocused meditations. ...the first with candles, the second by emptying my mind of all thought as is easy for one with ADD. My problem has always been keeping at it for more than, well, two or three days. It's something I hope I've gotten over, I really want to see where the Path takes me, finally. I've never found anything special in meditation other than relaxation, but again, never tried it for extended periods.
I can speak to the mind blanking, the point of it is to learn to clear your mind so you can practice or train yourself to selectively turn off your own thoughts son you can listen for other things.

Things like your higher self, dead, spirits, demons, angels, gods, or whatever. I know I have gotten good enough to talk over IM to people where they think of questions in there head, then I listen for answers from my higher self. Then I send what thoughts pop in my head. I personally prefer this method cuz I am blind to what questions they are asking, so my conscious thoughts don't interfere. However, if you want you can ask yourself questions, then clear mind quickly and your higher self will answer.

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

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Excellent clarification. Now I must simply learn steadfast persistence.

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

Post by brobdingnag »

Stukov wrote: I can speak to the mind blanking, the point of it is to learn to clear your mind so you can practice or train yourself to selectively turn off your own thoughts son you can listen for other things.

Things like your higher self, dead, spirits, demons, angels, gods, or whatever. I know I have gotten good enough to talk over IM to people where they think of questions in there head, then I listen for answers from my higher self. Then I send what thoughts pop in my head. I personally prefer this method cuz I am blind to what questions they are asking, so my conscious thoughts don't interfere. However, if you want you can ask yourself questions, then clear mind quickly and your higher self will answer.
Drider: this is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Free form is unfocussed - you don't try to clear or not clear (otherwise you don't get the messages from the other side). You just flow.
And that's when you get to the stage where like Stukov says you can read thoughts and gauge what's on other people's subconscious - at times, even if they're not aware.

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

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Oh! Heh, I've done that. Just space out kinda, and let my mind do whatever. Watch what goes on but don't involve myself with it or change it, just innocently perceive, so to speak. I see where you're going, now. I've done all three types (focused, mind blank, free form), just never for long enough periods. My subconscious never got to where it could straighten anything out, nor did I learn to discern from thought to thought well. But it's really wierd what you come up with when you just let your mind wander.

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

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The reason you do the mind blank before doing the free form is so you can learn to turn off your own "thoughts", otherwise you could get a message with mixed messages from your own mind. If you look at some members of the forums that are schizophrenic you can see how if you don't suppress your own mind, that you get a massive blah of words. This makes it difficult to differentiate the messages from those communicating with you.

Also, for me, sometimes people I have done it with, they are looking for advice from a certain specific spirit, if you don't suppress yourself you end up giving them you advice from yourself. Which by itself isn't an issue, but when its mixed in it can be confusing and can change the different messages.

If you need any other help or practice let me know.

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

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Always will assistance be awesome, but your inputs for the why's of things are most helpful. I get annoyed with most of the world because they expect me to get better at whatever without knowing why things work the way they do. Jobs come to mind...but anyway, thanks.

Sometimes I get intense "blah" in my head, it's been my tendency since I can remember to just drone on in my own thoughts forever, one topic leading to another. My dad's mother was paranoid schizophrenic. But that may or may not be simple ADD.

I do have a question, though of a totally different topic: when I was a child, I'd say before the age of ten, I remember looking off in the distance on my family's land in the country, and hearing my name called on the wind by an adult woman. She yelled it like she really needed to tell me something, or maybe like she was a mother worried about where I was and wanting me to come home. I always went to the southern fence to see if someone was there, yelling. It didn't sound like someone was yelling at a distance, either. More like someone was yelling at a distance during a tornado--you know, where the voice was sometimes intermittent rather than steady? Always sounding louder at times, and sometimes really quiet? Has anybody ever heard that themselves or know what it would be?

I miss hearing her, for the life of me I haven't heard her since I was ten, maybe twelve. She never said anything more than my first name.

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

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Did it start when you was 7? Did you hear it more than one occasion? What did it make you feel? Yeah its hard to do things if you don't know why. I'm entirely self taught , I literally don't read any subjects or material in the occult except history or mythology. In so you tend to learn how have to understand things from a functional point of view.

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

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Did it start when you was 7? Did you hear it more than one occasion? What did it make you feel?
It started when I was 5-7, but my memories are so sketchy from before a couple of years ago. No accident or anything, I've always had diminished memory. Between those years (5-7;10-12), I would hear it every single time I stopped playing long enough to listen. It was literally every time I wanted to listen, but you know how kids are, they hear something that isn't even from this physical world and pay it no more mind than their parents' voices--maybe the way a cat doesn't distinguish between the two realms. It was like that for me for many years, where while I realized it must not have been happening in the "real" world, I still didn't think of it as that super awesome cool supernatural experience that happened to me; not back then, anyway. I simply searched for the source with the known methods of searching I'd learned thus far.

These days, I would think of something like that as the most awesome thing I've ever heard. But maybe that's part of why I can't hear it anymore. At least, another result of the reason I can't hear it.
Yeah its hard to do things if you don't know why. I'm entirely self taught , I literally don't read any subjects or material in the occult except history or mythology. In so you tend to learn how have to understand things from a functional point of view.
That's an interesting philosophy. I find history to be so skewed most of the time by the writer's point of view that I can't bring myself to read it. It's also due to my inability to find books easily. I live in Tulsa, OK, close to the heart of the Bible belt, so really open minded books with real knowledge not altered are hard to find.

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

Post by Nahemah »

It's also due to my inability to find books easily. I live in Tulsa, OK, close to the heart of the Bible belt, so really open minded books with real knowledge not altered are hard to find.
I get that,I remember the old days,when I couldn't access decent reading material either.I had to go travelling into the big city,lol,and even then it wasn't easy.

We have a free books thread in Off Topic Occult.The links are for legal downloads etc.Check it out.

http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... =4&t=32833

Also there are many other places online you can access books and articles.

I'll look for some linkage.I posted some Chaos stuff recently elsewhere here.

http://occultebooks.com/articles.htm

I can't publically recommend any sites online that have legality issues cos of TOS guidelines.Hwever,pm content between members is private and unmonitorable. [wink]

Lets see what we can find for you.

I'l pm any more info,as I don't want to pull this thread off topic any more than I have already,lol. [thumbup]

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Re: Theory On Offerings and Otherworldly Purpose

Post by dRider »

Thank you Nahemah. I'll add these to my repertoire.

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