I'm continually bombarded with sensationalism about the "supernatural". Every time I come online to the forum, do a google search, express my possible belief in an elegant universe that allows for indirect manipulation through will, a new person mentions some kind of earth-shattering epiphany, some unbelievable power they've developed (or that I supposedly will), some entity harassing them, magical backfiring, a prophecy or something else that seems far too dramatic and insane to be "magic", as I know it.
In my life and experience, magic is accomplished through a subtle understanding and manipulation of factors involved in achieving a goal. It's difficult to think about, and, compared to Harry Potter, voodoo ritual or anything else, EXTREMELY BORING. There's nothing remarkable about it. I just set out to achieve something, do something that seems to make intuitive but not rational sense, and I'm successful, and I can't astral project, use psionic powers or even properly manage divination.
So, am I missing something, or is everyone a crazy drama queen/lying? I'm not questioning the possibility to use magic - I know that works, at least, as surely as one can know such things. I'm just starting to think that everyone I've ever encountered with thoughts about "magic" is a deeply wishful thinker or just plain deceitful because they all seem to embrace one (IMHO) insane idea or another.
Why do people claim to encounter demons, travel out of their bodies into other realms, receive visions, and effect electronics at will? Am I missing out because I'm skeptical, or am I the only mentally balanced magician?
I realize that this post may seem offensive, inflammatory or insulting, but I am just genuinely confused and upset and I do not mean to anger anyone. I've been thinking about this for a long time and I'd like to open the subject for discussion, to synthesize better understanding.
Magic Is Mundane
Re: Magic Is Mundane
It just comes with the territory, I think. When you combine a medium like the internet which is prone to misinformation and extreme views and you combine it with a subject like the occult which is highly debated and relatively underground, it can attract people who insincere about their beliefs and statements, people who are drawn to the subject because they have the wrong idea of what it is or what it represents, people who are just plain unhinged, not to mention the regular variety of trolls and troublemakers.
Like anything to do with the occult, you just have to learn to evaluate everything you read and hear and decide for yourself what you take at face value, what you think might some a truth hidden behind it and what you think is just plain nonsense. You have to examine what's being said, where it's coming from and the context and make your own evaluation.
That said, keep an open mind too. A lot of people would say that even the slightest claim of any kind of forces beyond the current scientific understanding of the universe is nonsense, so ask yourself that if what you have achieved is possible, what else could also be attempted? What implications do your beliefs and experiences have?
In short, question everything, and come to your own conclusions
Like anything to do with the occult, you just have to learn to evaluate everything you read and hear and decide for yourself what you take at face value, what you think might some a truth hidden behind it and what you think is just plain nonsense. You have to examine what's being said, where it's coming from and the context and make your own evaluation.
That said, keep an open mind too. A lot of people would say that even the slightest claim of any kind of forces beyond the current scientific understanding of the universe is nonsense, so ask yourself that if what you have achieved is possible, what else could also be attempted? What implications do your beliefs and experiences have?
In short, question everything, and come to your own conclusions
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"
- DDJ, Verse 27
"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"
- DDJ, Verse 27
"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett
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Nahemah
- Magus
- Posts: 5077
- Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:49 pm
- Location: Sunny Glasgow by the Clutha's side
Re: Magic Is Mundane
As Rin says above,basically. [thumbup]
And ...a little of my own rather rambling perspective:
But,Experimentation is invaluable in deciding if a practice is worthwhile working on or exploring more,I find personally.
It is also fine if you do not wish to explore these areas.However one should be aware that being unable to work with something does not necessarily mean no one else can do so either.Be wary of ego traps.
I am what I like to term an open minded Sceptic,in that I accept possibilities,am open to new ideas and I believe that limits exist to be exceeded,but there are many things I doubt in and I must admit I rely a lot on critical thinking for resolution.
Astral projection is a moot subject,for many folk.Whether it is inner space or outer that is being experienced or indeed, a combination of both and/or more is open to interpretation and conjecture.I work astrally and what works for me works, whether it is an ability/skill shared with others or no.I do find myself frustrated sometimes though ,when I read of extreme examples and grandiose claims as made by some practioners.
People claim to encounter Demons because they do so,but whether you believe these are internal forces/aspects of self or external forces/aspects of others or something else altogether,is subjective and again,another point open to conjecture and speculation.Visions are similarly open to interpretation also.
On the electronics; hmm...not at will,I don't accept that myself, but some folk have 'interesting' skin resistivity levels and other anomalic [apparently] physical phenomena which can have some real world effects,though these are definately in the realm of minor register and not that noticable.
And ...a little of my own rather rambling perspective:
Psionics I remain wary of,but not so much sceptical as I am cautious.I have experimented with telluric devices and had successes,but I also noted problems with controllability and functionality. I am not sufficiently interested in the area to explore further at this time as I remain busy with other things.... and I can't astral project, use psionic powers or even properly manage divination.
But,Experimentation is invaluable in deciding if a practice is worthwhile working on or exploring more,I find personally.
It is also fine if you do not wish to explore these areas.However one should be aware that being unable to work with something does not necessarily mean no one else can do so either.Be wary of ego traps.
I am what I like to term an open minded Sceptic,in that I accept possibilities,am open to new ideas and I believe that limits exist to be exceeded,but there are many things I doubt in and I must admit I rely a lot on critical thinking for resolution.
Astral projection is a moot subject,for many folk.Whether it is inner space or outer that is being experienced or indeed, a combination of both and/or more is open to interpretation and conjecture.I work astrally and what works for me works, whether it is an ability/skill shared with others or no.I do find myself frustrated sometimes though ,when I read of extreme examples and grandiose claims as made by some practioners.
No,not everyone is lying,some exaggerate and some lie,certainly,but there are many people who do not,though ability to communicate experience effectively,varies greatly on an interpersonal level.Some folk describe intensely and might seem to be fanciful,at times,yet others can make the most fascinating story seem dull and mundane,lol, most of the truth falls somewhere in between,thankfully.So, am I missing something, or is everyone a crazy drama queen/lying? I'm not questioning the possibility to use magic - I know that works, at least, as surely as one can know such things. I'm just starting to think that everyone I've ever encountered with thoughts about "magic" is a deeply wishful thinker or just plain deceitful because they all seem to embrace one (IMHO) insane idea or another.
Why do people claim to encounter demons, travel out of their bodies into other realms, receive visions, and effect electronics at will? Am I missing out because I'm skeptical, or am I the only mentally balanced magician?
People claim to encounter Demons because they do so,but whether you believe these are internal forces/aspects of self or external forces/aspects of others or something else altogether,is subjective and again,another point open to conjecture and speculation.Visions are similarly open to interpretation also.
On the electronics; hmm...not at will,I don't accept that myself, but some folk have 'interesting' skin resistivity levels and other anomalic [apparently] physical phenomena which can have some real world effects,though these are definately in the realm of minor register and not that noticable.
There is a lot of baloney out there and you are not alone in questioning this,so no worries.I think it 's an interesting and useful discussion topic.I realize that this post may seem offensive, inflammatory or insulting, but I am just genuinely confused and upset and I do not mean to anger anyone. I've been thinking about this for a long time and I'd like to open the subject for discussion, to synthesize better understanding.
Re: Magic Is Mundane
nice replies from Rin and Nahemah.
if i may add a few thoughts
ppl say and do all kinds of crazy stuff, abnormal behaviour is actually the norm... thats why i have allways thought that any religious belief to be absolute and pure insanity...
the only answer is a scientific, analytical approach.
if whatever your doing is working, you get results.
than, try to eliminate the other factors in the equation...like coincidence, wishful thinking, pure luck....and so on.
apply probabilistics.
repeat.
results, actual results is what matters, anything else is for the feeble minded
if i may add a few thoughts
ppl say and do all kinds of crazy stuff, abnormal behaviour is actually the norm... thats why i have allways thought that any religious belief to be absolute and pure insanity...
the only answer is a scientific, analytical approach.
if whatever your doing is working, you get results.
than, try to eliminate the other factors in the equation...like coincidence, wishful thinking, pure luck....and so on.
apply probabilistics.
repeat.
results, actual results is what matters, anything else is for the feeble minded
Re: Magic Is Mundane
Another thing that occurred to me is whether you've actually tried anything outside what you consider to be doable? A lot of people never really push themselves once they've decided what they can and can't achieve and settle into a bit of a niche, and I'm not just talking about magic but in all facets of life.
If you genuinely make the effort you might surprise yourself. As they say, you won't know until you try.
If you genuinely make the effort you might surprise yourself. As they say, you won't know until you try.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"
- DDJ, Verse 27
"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"
- DDJ, Verse 27
"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett
Re: Magic Is Mundane
Well, I've been trying to figure out any form of divination since 2000 and have never had an inkling of results. So, I'm coming to believe that divination is BS, despite my extreme desire to acquire some kind of ability.
I think I've made efforts to push myself, but the list of what "works" is still extremely short.
I think I've made efforts to push myself, but the list of what "works" is still extremely short.
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Clockwork Ghost
- Magus
- Posts: 1502
- Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:10 pm
Re: Magic Is Mundane
Over time I've come to believe that divination doesnt so much access the future as it does access the inner workings of the mind and allow you to see things from another angle. The reason such things as Tarot cards can be such a good resource is therefore because they can make us see the path were on from a different perspective, thus shifting the viewpoint and allowing us to make decisions to avoid obvious pitfalls before they happen.
We all plan out our actions to a degree, even if its only subconciously. We all seek meaning in meaningless things and random actions and events. If you combine the two then you get divination - the drawing of cards, the tossing of runes etc combined with the planning of actions. Our minds then combine the two together to attempt to forsee a future - all were doing is giving them a vehicle in which to do so really.
We all plan out our actions to a degree, even if its only subconciously. We all seek meaning in meaningless things and random actions and events. If you combine the two then you get divination - the drawing of cards, the tossing of runes etc combined with the planning of actions. Our minds then combine the two together to attempt to forsee a future - all were doing is giving them a vehicle in which to do so really.
Re: Magic Is Mundane
You can't do it, therefore it can't be possible?reptilian wrote:Well, I've been trying to figure out any form of divination since 2000 and have never had an inkling of results. So, I'm coming to believe that divination is BS, despite my extreme desire to acquire some kind of ability.
I think I've made efforts to push myself, but the list of what "works" is still extremely short.
Don't get me wrong, I know nothing about divination and it's always seemed one of the sketchier branches of the occult, but that seems like a pretty faulty assumption to me.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"
- DDJ, Verse 27
"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"
- DDJ, Verse 27
"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett
Re: Magic Is Mundane
Case, my theory about divination is similar, which is what I think I mean when I say that it seems like BS. It seems like visions, prophecy and even peripheral knowledge are not attainable through most divinatory practices that I know about, but that it's really about self-gnosis.
And while I understand your point, Rin, it seems to me like the only thing I can know about magic is what I experience. Everything else is suspect. Hell, even my own experiences are highly suspect. So, after attempting at least half a dozen methods of divination over twelve years, do I have to continue to resist the urge to draw the conclusion that it's fanciful? I suppose that it may be a bad idea to draw conclusions in general, in which case, I'm a very bad magician, but it seems a bit extreme as a viewpoint.
An interesting thing that I've noticed is that witchcraft actually really does work for me, even though I've always been totally into mental magic and against props and rituals. It makes me think that there's a certain level of correspondence between effectiveness and how much the magician enjoys the medium. As a botany nerd, herbalism and hoodoo are a joy with brilliant effects, even though normally I would dismiss such things as "mumbo jumbo".
Maybe I just proved your point with that, Rin. Maybe I am being too hasty. Truthfully, I think I'm just jealous that things are so subtle for me, and so big and snazzy for others. My magic is powerful, precise, effective, so why is it so unremarkable in the way it presents itself? Maybe I need a more grandiose spell to see grandiose results. *shrug*
I'm also curious about how all of you experience these things. Do you feel something when you work magic, or "know" that it's working, or, like me, do you have to wait and see? Have you communicated with entities that you identify as separate from yourself, and do you believe they are?
And while I understand your point, Rin, it seems to me like the only thing I can know about magic is what I experience. Everything else is suspect. Hell, even my own experiences are highly suspect. So, after attempting at least half a dozen methods of divination over twelve years, do I have to continue to resist the urge to draw the conclusion that it's fanciful? I suppose that it may be a bad idea to draw conclusions in general, in which case, I'm a very bad magician, but it seems a bit extreme as a viewpoint.
An interesting thing that I've noticed is that witchcraft actually really does work for me, even though I've always been totally into mental magic and against props and rituals. It makes me think that there's a certain level of correspondence between effectiveness and how much the magician enjoys the medium. As a botany nerd, herbalism and hoodoo are a joy with brilliant effects, even though normally I would dismiss such things as "mumbo jumbo".
Maybe I just proved your point with that, Rin. Maybe I am being too hasty. Truthfully, I think I'm just jealous that things are so subtle for me, and so big and snazzy for others. My magic is powerful, precise, effective, so why is it so unremarkable in the way it presents itself? Maybe I need a more grandiose spell to see grandiose results. *shrug*
I'm also curious about how all of you experience these things. Do you feel something when you work magic, or "know" that it's working, or, like me, do you have to wait and see? Have you communicated with entities that you identify as separate from yourself, and do you believe they are?
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weezyfosheezy
- Initiated
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:56 am
Re: Magic Is Mundane
Well here is my experience, I understand what you mean as I am a very analytical person (studied analytical chemistry in college).
First off I suffer from schizo-affective or schizophrenia or dam schizo-cunnilingus [tongue2] they are just words. It seems like I am being attacked by a demon, but honestly it probably is my denying or not accepting my mind has gone into a state where I have severe paranoia all the time. By focusing the paranoia on an outside source (the demon) it becomes easier to think of it as something I can overcome (even though a part of me knows I'm stuck with it for life) or that something isn't seriously inherently wrong with me. I even feel pride or happy over whatever I accomplish because I think it sticks it to this thing trying to ruin my life [yay] and I need these wins when the average person would just think of it as mundane. Especially because when I was 20 I participated in Cancer reasearch until I had a psycotic break, at 22 I was researching photovoltaic cells so humanity can have cheap solar power until I had a psychotic break, and a 23 I was a process engineer earning 70k/year until...well you see the pattern. I use the supernatural as a tool to still believe my life has meaning even with this disorder that wrecks my life unconsciously (blacked out psychosis) and that there is actually something I can consciously do.
Sometimes we are stuck with profound difficulties in this life the likes of which our brains cant even understand. The human mind is so amazing because instead of it just completely ruining my life I seem to have created a completely different way to think of what is actually happening (that something evil needs to be defeated or show that its time or making me suffer was in vain instead of that I for no reason have a horrible disorder).
I take a pragmatic view towards this stuff. If it helps and I benefit from that way of thinking then it is correct [happy2]. So I guess the answer is that our experiences with the supernatural is only as extreme as it needs to be in order to live a normalish life. Some people find comfort in understanding, some people find comfort in the unexplained, some people find comfort in meaning, some people find comfort in meaningless, some find comfort in chaos, and some in order. Everyone's experience is inherently theirs and dont we all just want 2 things to feel secure and special. We on this forum are simply a group of people who has a similar way of achieving that goal.
So if people are actually chased by demons, astral project, control electronics ect is not the point. The point should be that you, me, everyone is going through a unique experience through this life, we want the same things, but have different ways to achieve that goal. You path might not include the extreme paranormal experiences (mine is simply created by a very sick mind).
First off I suffer from schizo-affective or schizophrenia or dam schizo-cunnilingus [tongue2] they are just words. It seems like I am being attacked by a demon, but honestly it probably is my denying or not accepting my mind has gone into a state where I have severe paranoia all the time. By focusing the paranoia on an outside source (the demon) it becomes easier to think of it as something I can overcome (even though a part of me knows I'm stuck with it for life) or that something isn't seriously inherently wrong with me. I even feel pride or happy over whatever I accomplish because I think it sticks it to this thing trying to ruin my life [yay] and I need these wins when the average person would just think of it as mundane. Especially because when I was 20 I participated in Cancer reasearch until I had a psycotic break, at 22 I was researching photovoltaic cells so humanity can have cheap solar power until I had a psychotic break, and a 23 I was a process engineer earning 70k/year until...well you see the pattern. I use the supernatural as a tool to still believe my life has meaning even with this disorder that wrecks my life unconsciously (blacked out psychosis) and that there is actually something I can consciously do.
Sometimes we are stuck with profound difficulties in this life the likes of which our brains cant even understand. The human mind is so amazing because instead of it just completely ruining my life I seem to have created a completely different way to think of what is actually happening (that something evil needs to be defeated or show that its time or making me suffer was in vain instead of that I for no reason have a horrible disorder).
I take a pragmatic view towards this stuff. If it helps and I benefit from that way of thinking then it is correct [happy2]. So I guess the answer is that our experiences with the supernatural is only as extreme as it needs to be in order to live a normalish life. Some people find comfort in understanding, some people find comfort in the unexplained, some people find comfort in meaning, some people find comfort in meaningless, some find comfort in chaos, and some in order. Everyone's experience is inherently theirs and dont we all just want 2 things to feel secure and special. We on this forum are simply a group of people who has a similar way of achieving that goal.
So if people are actually chased by demons, astral project, control electronics ect is not the point. The point should be that you, me, everyone is going through a unique experience through this life, we want the same things, but have different ways to achieve that goal. You path might not include the extreme paranormal experiences (mine is simply created by a very sick mind).
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Clockwork Ghost
- Magus
- Posts: 1502
- Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:10 pm
Re: Magic Is Mundane
I dont know my magic is working, but half the time I dont know if my heart is beating either - I just have to trust that it is and that my body knows how to look after itself. Magic for me has become so much an element of my day to day existence that I just trust its there and that it will work. That said, I dont perform anything too grandoise these days to really warrant the term 'magical ceremony', more observing various rituals and rites Ive followed for as long as I can remember, plus I talk to my demons and do the odd spell to make things easier for myself.
I personally think that the majority of the big magic spells are just to prove to yourself that magic is real - you dont need them, you just pull them off with all their nonsense chanting and foolish robe wearing walking three times backward around a statue of Christ upside down surrounded by guttering black candles while topless women hold chalices filled with goats blood because they make you feel like youre doing Real Magic.
Magic is a world view - once you get past all the nonsense and tomfoolery and realise that the average mage still has to go to work every day to pay their bills, still brushes their teeth in the morning and still wipes their arse when they use the toilet then you get to the crux of what magic really is. Magic is a belief system - you either believe in it or you dont. If you believe in it, then it works. If you dont believe in it, then it doesnt. If you need to use sheeps skulls to make your magic work, or a hundred virgins waving silk cloths, or have fireworks go off every time you scream your gods names then do that - if you can do it all without the pomp and ceremony, then good for you.
I personally think that the majority of the big magic spells are just to prove to yourself that magic is real - you dont need them, you just pull them off with all their nonsense chanting and foolish robe wearing walking three times backward around a statue of Christ upside down surrounded by guttering black candles while topless women hold chalices filled with goats blood because they make you feel like youre doing Real Magic.
Magic is a world view - once you get past all the nonsense and tomfoolery and realise that the average mage still has to go to work every day to pay their bills, still brushes their teeth in the morning and still wipes their arse when they use the toilet then you get to the crux of what magic really is. Magic is a belief system - you either believe in it or you dont. If you believe in it, then it works. If you dont believe in it, then it doesnt. If you need to use sheeps skulls to make your magic work, or a hundred virgins waving silk cloths, or have fireworks go off every time you scream your gods names then do that - if you can do it all without the pomp and ceremony, then good for you.
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akimbomoss
- Adept
- Posts: 643
- Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:06 am
Re: Magic Is Mundane
I was sitting on the toilet this morning taking a dump and Lam the alien was telling me how many times to wipe it. Does that make Lam my servant?Case wrote:the average mage still has to go to work every day to pay their bills, still brushes their teeth in the morning and still wipes their arse when they use the toilet
PS: I actually thought up this very post while on the toilet without even having ever read this thread. I was going to save it for the "what if someone posted this?" moment. So is that divination?
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akimbomoss
- Adept
- Posts: 643
- Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:06 am
Re: Magic Is Mundane
Reptilian I think about you from time to time and I read your posts. Ummm... you posted that if you ever hallucinate again you will leave the occult. I was a bit disturbed by this by I told myself that you're too valuable for me to suggest that maybe if you started hallucinating it wouldn't be the end of the world.
It's the lucid dreaming that makes you valuable... but yeah the hallucinations can be pretty Frigga'd up sometimes.
It's the lucid dreaming that makes you valuable... but yeah the hallucinations can be pretty Frigga'd up sometimes.
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Clockwork Ghost
- Magus
- Posts: 1502
- Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:10 pm
Re: Magic Is Mundane
No, by definition it would make you Lam's servant because you are following his or her rules as to how many times you wipe. Falling prey to periods of psychosis such as this, because psychosis is about the only time an alien being would instruct you on how many times you must wipe your backside, would be a dangerous thing to do whilst following a magical paradigm surrounding extra terrestrials - such madness would quickly develop into such silliness as believing that hamsters had gods and required your subservience in acquiring more lettuce so they could build acquiline temples to perverse places seen only by dreaming representatives from far and distant shores.akimbomoss wrote:I was sitting on the toilet this morning taking a dump and Lam the alien was telling me how many times to wipe it. Does that make Lam my servant?Case wrote:the average mage still has to go to work every day to pay their bills, still brushes their teeth in the morning and still wipes their arse when they use the toilet
All hail Eeek - praise His mighty name. [pray] [pray] [pray]