Can you know God without understanding or recognizing his perfect work

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Greatest I am
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Can you know God without understanding or recognizing his perfect work

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Can you know God without understanding or recognizing his perfect works?

The whole notion of knowing and following God, is to know how he works and thinks, tied to a belief that he is perfect in all things and has the miracle at hand to create things the way he wants.

Scripture tells us to look to the universe around us for proof of his reality. Logic and reason tell us the same thing. This indicates that we should see the perfection of his works all around us.

Deut 32;4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Mat 7;18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The logic trail of these two verses says that God’s works all begin as perfect and that that perfection is maintain and passed up through history.

I like to think I know a bit about God because, as I look about, I see that ever lasting perfection as it moves to a more perfect state over time. Evolving perfection.
Consider a baby, all babies including you and I.
We all begin life as perfect as nature, or God, can produce with our DNA and all other conditions at hand. This is a truth even if we are born with flaws and is irrefutable in terms of both nature, logic, reason and the Bible.

This truth led to my apotheosis and knowledge of God and nature.
I offer it here for your contemplation and comments.

I cannot see anything that would my view but am willing to listen. If you cannot see the perfection that I do, then I will try to persuade you.

Perhaps the best way to begin would be in you opining on the following and telling me whether you think it is a cynical view of life or if it is a real and true view of life.

Candide
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.â€

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This question is proven false through scripture above, namely 'Mat 7;18 "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."' If a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit, then all things cannot be created perfect, unless you are saying that corrupt things are also perfect in their corruptness. If corruption is in itself a state of perfection, then yes - your argument is valid.

Sadly, if corruption, evil, vilelness and sin are to be considered pinnacles of creation then God is creating evil things. This then goes against His concept of being a benevolent God, and seeing as the Bible tells us that the evil within the world was brought into existence by Satan, and therefore not by God, then evil cannot be said to be perfect, but has to be said to be impure and imperfect in the eyes of God.

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Re: Can you know God without understanding or recognizing hi

Post by weezyfosheezy »

I dont follow scripture to in depthly, but to understand perfect is that nothing is innately evil (seriously give me anything I'll ninja it to having good qualities, because im bad ass like that), but get attributed as such by humans. Good and evil are just words created by humans and perfection exist in simply things being.

For example my biggest evil I face is my mental disability, but in a completely random world. Even that is perfect for it lessens the chance of the general population from having it. Just follow that God will not give me something I cant deal with, but the trouble is finding something I can deal with with the tools God gave me. I am flawed but hopefully through him I can find that special niche that God so perfectly laid out for me. At least what I'm trying to accept

Recognize it is perfect, but as we are flawed cannot see or understand the works of an all powerful entity. But we can know and understand an all powerful entity in theory, and thus is to know God.

Cant really get any quotes as reading does nothing for me, but I do have insites though my life that at least work for me.

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Re: Can you know God without understanding or recognizing hi

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One interpretation I see of the biblical god is as a parallel to the Chinese Dao 道, the definition that i use for this word is "ultimate reality that is beyond opinions and ability to know" The Dao De Jing 道德经 refrains from defining it all together, emphasizing that what ever limits we can put on it, it is also more then that. Using this definition of god then, I am going to say that the only justification god needs is ,is that it is absolute truth. Laws of morality and justice are just a bunch of ideas that us homo sapiens have came up with. The meaning of De 德 is a person's character. So the big question here is the harmony between what is real, and one's character. When there is disharmony, Darwin's laws go into action to eliminate what's non compatible.So in other words god's work is perfect simply for the reason that there is absolutely nothing you can do about it, its adapt or die.

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Case wrote:This question is proven false through scripture above, namely 'Mat 7;18 "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."' If a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit, then all things cannot be created perfect, unless you are saying that corrupt things are also perfect in their corruptness. If corruption is in itself a state of perfection, then yes - your argument is valid.

Sadly, if corruption, evil, vilelness and sin are to be considered pinnacles of creation then God is creating evil things. This then goes against His concept of being a benevolent God, and seeing as the Bible tells us that the evil within the world was brought into existence by Satan, and therefore not by God, then evil cannot be said to be perfect, but has to be said to be impure and imperfect in the eyes of God.
Not, if God is the law maker. Then recognition of something evil would be good as a law could be written against it.

Where have you read up on a benevolent God?
Certainly not the bible God.

As to how to look at the perfection around us, we are an evolving world and species.
In evolving, are both competition and cooperation not what we must do?

Competition would be seen as evil and cooperation good.
If you take competition out of evolution, what would you have left?
An imperfect system that can no longer work.
Right?

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you know God without understanding or recognizing hi

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weezyfosheezy wrote:I dont follow scripture to in depthly, but to understand perfect is that nothing is innately evil (seriously give me anything I'll ninja it to having good qualities, because im bad ass like that), but get attributed as such by humans. Good and evil are just words created by humans and perfection exist in simply things being.

For example my biggest evil I face is my mental disability, but in a completely random world. Even that is perfect for it lessens the chance of the general population from having it. Just follow that God will not give me something I cant deal with, but the trouble is finding something I can deal with with the tools God gave me. I am flawed but hopefully through him I can find that special niche that God so perfectly laid out for me. At least what I'm trying to accept

Recognize it is perfect, but as we are flawed cannot see or understand the works of an all powerful entity. But we can know and understand an all powerful entity in theory, and thus is to know God.

Cant really get any quotes as reading does nothing for me, but I do have insites though my life that at least work for me.
So God laid out your perfect path. How nice and special for you. As a slave in any case.

Most humans think we should find or make our own path.
Freedom should be sought. Not slavery to another.

It comes with maturity.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you know God without understanding or recognizing hi

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Greatest I am wrote: Where have you read up on a benevolent God?
Certainly not the bible God.

Regards
DL
The benevolence of God is all throughout the New Testament:

"God is love."--1 John 4:16.

Thats merely one example - there are hundreds of cases where God is said to be love, light, peace, etc. If God is in fact all these things then how can God allow evil things and impure things to be created and to exist in His world? If He does, and if these things are in fact perfect, then a benevolent God seeks perfect evil.

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Case wrote:
Greatest I am wrote: Where have you read up on a benevolent God?
Certainly not the bible God.

Regards
DL
The benevolence of God is all throughout the New Testament:

"God is love."--1 John 4:16.

Thats merely one example - there are hundreds of cases where God is said to be love, light, peace, etc. If God is in fact all these things then how can God allow evil things and impure things to be created and to exist in His world? If He does, and if these things are in fact perfect, then a benevolent God seeks perfect evil.
You reduce God to a base emotion. Ok.

Love is as love does.

Shall I get you the quotes that have Jesus condemning the vast majority of us to hell?
It is a long list and shows how little love he has.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP7SPJllNoc

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DL

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Re: Can you know God without understanding or recognizing hi

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The problem is the huge contradiction between the way god is described in the new testament and the way he acts in the old testament. OT god is jealous and angry and spiteful, NT god is all loving and caring and and protecting and all that. They're almost polar opposites.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: Can you know God without understanding or recognizing hi

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Rin wrote:The problem is the huge contradiction between the way god is described in the new testament and the way he acts in the old testament. OT god is jealous and angry and spiteful, NT god is all loving and caring and and protecting and all that. They're almost polar opposites.
The problem started when Christianity usurped the Jewish O T God without also usurping the Jewish interpretations which are the opposite of the stance Christianity took.

Think of the Christian fall from Eden and the concept of original sin.
Both of theses were added to what Jews saw as man's elevation and not his fall.

http://www.mrrena.com/misc/judaism2.php

Jews also do not read scriptures literally yet Christians do.

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DL

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Re: Can you know God without understanding or recognizing hi

Post by Nahemah »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell


"The New Testament maintains a distinction between Sheol, the common "place of the dead", and the eternal destiny of those condemned at the Final Judgment, variously described as Gehenna, "the outer darkness," or a lake of eternal fire. Modern English translations of the Bible maintain this distinction (e.g. by translating Sheol as "the Pit" and Gehenna as "Hell"), but the influential King James Version used the word "hell" to translate both concepts."

It seems important shared concepts got a little lost in translation,over time.
"He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel."

Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.

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Nahemah wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell


"The New Testament maintains a distinction between Sheol, the common "place of the dead", and the eternal destiny of those condemned at the Final Judgment, variously described as Gehenna, "the outer darkness," or a lake of eternal fire. Modern English translations of the Bible maintain this distinction (e.g. by translating Sheol as "the Pit" and Gehenna as "Hell"), but the influential King James Version used the word "hell" to translate both concepts."

It seems important shared concepts got a little lost in translation,over time.
Which is why going to the original text is important especially when recognizing that they were not to be taken literally.

Egypt and Sumer are where any looking should start.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x84m5k ... -of-3_news

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DL


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DL

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Re: Can you know God without understanding or recognizing hi

Post by jokester »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV8BNgcBnq8

SImple Messiah Complex: Signs of the Times....? Is this God's perfect work?
It kind of links symbology to pyramids and obelisks and stuff. The star of david comes from snake scales? Any thoughts?
sorry i am a n00b [yay]

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Post by Bohemian Alchemist »

Like an artist whose personality is present in his work, traces of the Divine can be seen in Its work. The question is what is Its work?

Certainly not nature as we live in it. For every flower that unfolds beauty there's a maggot which, after climbing into the ear of a spring lamb, eats away at its eyes until the poor thing dies in agony. Such instances as this are not the result of human evil but are present already in nature. It would seem that nature itself is a duality.

Plato said that to know a thing is to have that thing become part of yourself. Knowing that my carpet is beige means that I recognize the quality of beige and rememberence of that quality must mean that to some extent those qualities are in me (in the form of memory). Apprehending God works in the same way. Traces and shadows of It can be grasped in nature hinting at something beyond its transitory state of being.

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jokester wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV8BNgcBnq8

SImple Messiah Complex: Signs of the Times....? Is this God's perfect work?
It kind of links symbology to pyramids and obelisks and stuff. The star of david comes from snake scales? Any thoughts?
sorry i am a n00b [yay]
A messiah is as a messiah does.

I see no one messiah-ing.

If you are asking me if thiking is aided by thinking demographically and with forms, then yes.

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DL

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Bohemian Alchemist wrote:Like an artist whose personality is present in his work, traces of the Divine can be seen in Its work. The question is what is Its work?

Certainly not nature as we live in it. For every flower that unfolds beauty there's a maggot which, after climbing into the ear of a spring lamb, eats away at its eyes until the poor thing dies in agony. Such instances as this are not the result of human evil but are present already in nature. It would seem that nature itself is a duality.

Plato said that to know a thing is to have that thing become part of yourself. Knowing that my carpet is beige means that I recognize the quality of beige and rememberence of that quality must mean that to some extent those qualities are in me (in the form of memory). Apprehending God works in the same way. Traces and shadows of It can be grasped in nature hinting at something beyond its transitory state of being.
Nature is a duality.
In your life, you only and always do one of two things.
You are either cooperating or competing.
In a sense, either doing good or doing evil.
Competing creates victims.

Regards
DL

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