Lesser Pentagram dagger/sword, and an invoking idea

[5kinr]

I was reading Regardie's The Golden Dawn, and when he talks about the magical sword, he refers to it representing Geburah (strength) and says it should be used for banishing purposes. Does this extend to using the magical sword, instead of a dagger (not the Air dagger), to perform the LBRP?

Speaking of the LBRP (and the LIRP), I've also been reading over Francis Melville's book The Secrets of High Magic. In it, he states to perform invoking rituals using the wand, and banishing rituals with the dagger. While he is quite obviously wrong on some points thereof - he switched the element attributions of the wand and dagger, and even so the elemental tools shouldn't be used out of context - this is an interesting idea. A dagger (or sword) is quite obviously a weapon, meant to discourage someone from getting too close to oneself. A wand, on the other hand, is something used to command; the pop culture analogue would be a king's scepter.

If non-elemental invoking and banishing tools were designed, then one could use different ones for different purposes. But I had a better idea, one that I thought of while analyzing the symbolism of the wand and chalice. Why not perform banishing rituals holding the Air dagger in the right hand, and the Earth pentacle (pantacle) in the left? Likewise, invoking rituals would be performed with the Fire wand and the Water chalice.

This makes sense from a symbolic standpoint, as the pentacle is a defensive weapon akin to a shield, as well as being the elemental opposite of the dagger. Elementally, they are opposites, but physically they complement each other rather well. The same is true of the chalice and wand; the wand obviously representing the phallus, and the chalice its counterpart. Using sexual symbolism for invoking is also appropriate from a theoretical perspective, as such activity is used in a very real sense in many kinds of sex magic.

Any of this make sense to anyone besides me, or am I just off my rocker?

[Frater_NT]

I was reading Regardie's The Golden Dawn, and when he talks about the magical sword, he refers to it representing Geburah (strength) and says it should be used for banishing purposes. Does this extend to using the magical sword, instead of a dagger (not the Air dagger), to perform the LBRP?

The sword itself is NOT the same tool as a dagger. Swords, as you said, are linked to Geburah (Mars) and are far more of a defense/attack weapon while the dagger (elemental air) cuts through the illusions of what we think ourselves to be. I personally don't buy into the argument that the dagger (plain dagger) is just a shortened form of the sword. A sword is a sword and a dagger is a dagger. I personally see the plain dagger as still an air weapon minus all the standard G.'. D.'. symbols painted on it.

Speaking of the LBRP (and the LIRP), I've also been reading over Francis Melville's book The Secrets of High Magic. In it, he states to perform invoking rituals using the wand, and banishing rituals with the dagger. While he is quite obviously wrong on some points thereof - he switched the element attributions of the wand and dagger, and even so the elemental tools shouldn't be used out of context - this is an interesting idea. A dagger (or sword) is quite obviously a weapon, meant to discourage someone from getting too close to oneself. A wand, on the other hand, is something used to command; the pop culture analogue would be a king's scepter.

One weapon for invoking and another for banishing is an interesting idea. I've never read that book so I have no idea the context this idea was put into, but interesting nonetheless. I'm personally of the opinion that using the wand (fire, Will) is better for your pentagram rituals.

If non-elemental invoking and banishing tools were designed, then one could use different ones for different purposes. But I had a better idea, one that I thought of while analyzing the symbolism of the wand and chalice. Why not perform banishing rituals holding the Air dagger in the right hand, and the Earth pentacle (pantacle) in the left? Likewise, invoking rituals would be performed with the Fire wand and the Water chalice.

I'm not sure what you are aiming for here, but it is nicely balanced (air/earth, fire/water, invoking/banishing). Note, what some people (ok, most) seem to forget is the lesser pentagram ritual itself isn't really a ritual by itself, it's half a ritual, the invoking form being the other half. Back to your comment though, I was looking at this qabalistically with your wand and chalice you have Atziluth and Briah, then you have your dagger and pent which would be Yetzirah and Assiah. Nice form to bring the divine down to the physical form. Rather than messing with all the tools, I would suggest you check out The Star Ruby [wink2]

Fr. N.'. T.'.

[5kinr]

I was reading Regardie's The Golden Dawn, and when he talks about the magical sword, he refers to it representing Geburah (strength) and says it should be used for banishing purposes. Does this extend to using the magical sword, instead of a dagger (not the Air dagger), to perform the LBRP?

The sword itself is NOT the same tool as a dagger. Swords, as you said, are linked to Geburah (Mars) and are far more of a defense/attack weapon while the dagger (elemental air) cuts through the illusions of what we think ourselves to be. I personally don't buy into the argument that the dagger (plain dagger) is just a shortened form of the sword. A sword is a sword and a dagger is a dagger. I personally see the plain dagger as still an air weapon minus all the standard G.'. D.'. symbols painted on it.

Speaking of the LBRP (and the LIRP), I've also been reading over Francis Melville's book The Secrets of High Magic. In it, he states to perform invoking rituals using the wand, and banishing rituals with the dagger. While he is quite obviously wrong on some points thereof - he switched the element attributions of the wand and dagger, and even so the elemental tools shouldn't be used out of context - this is an interesting idea. A dagger (or sword) is quite obviously a weapon, meant to discourage someone from getting too close to oneself. A wand, on the other hand, is something used to command; the pop culture analogue would be a king's scepter.

One weapon for invoking and another for banishing is an interesting idea. I've never read that book so I have no idea the context this idea was put into, but interesting nonetheless. I'm personally of the opinion that using the wand (fire, Will) is better for your pentagram rituals.

If non-elemental invoking and banishing tools were designed, then one could use different ones for different purposes. But I had a better idea, one that I thought of while analyzing the symbolism of the wand and chalice. Why not perform banishing rituals holding the Air dagger in the right hand, and the Earth pentacle (pantacle) in the left? Likewise, invoking rituals would be performed with the Fire wand and the Water chalice.

I'm not sure what you are aiming for here, but it is nicely balanced (air/earth, fire/water, invoking/banishing). Note, what some people (ok, most) seem to forget is the lesser pentagram ritual itself isn't really a ritual by itself, it's half a ritual, the invoking form being the other half. Back to your comment though, I was looking at this qabalistically with your wand and chalice you have Atziluth and Briah, then you have your dagger and pent which would be Yetzirah and Assiah. Nice form to bring the divine down to the physical form. Rather than messing with all the tools, I would suggest you check out The Star Ruby [wink2]

Fr. N.'. T.'.

I know that the dagger and sword are not the same (at least from a GD perspective). I was referring to the fact that most forms of the LBRP/LIRP have the ritualist use either a steel dagger - different from the Air dagger, as Kraig specifies in Modern Magick - or just their hand. To be honest, from at least a cursory examination, it would seem that using the Sword (Geburah) would be more correct, and that most people specify to use non-Air daggers for considerations of space. After all, not everyone has the luxury of a dedicated temple with a vaulted ceiling [rofl]

I never thought about the fact that even a non-decorated dagger can be said to represent Air. In that case, Melville's instruction to use the dagger (the Fire dagger in that book, but the instructions he gives for making the wand and dagger are so generalized that the only thing that would need to be switched is the names of the Archangels) for the LBRP could somewhat be seen as correct. But I still think that using Fire to do one form of the Lesser Pentagram, and Air to do the other, is not very balanced, which led to my suggestion of using all the tools.

Incidentally, in the instructions Melville gives for the "Air wand", he says to cut a notch in the tip, where certain things representing other elements are placed (a stone for Earth, a seashell for Water, etc). This goes directly against the idea that there's no way to effectively use all four elements in a single tool, since they counteract each other; this is, I assumed, why the Lotus Wand/Rainbow Wand uses the zodiac rather than the elements. It would also create an imbalance, as combining Air with Air is somewhat pointless IMO, and combining Air with Earth directly would cancel out most of the energy.* This is one of the things that led me to conclude that Melville is an outside researcher rather than a practitioner; TBH, the main thing I bought the book for was the chapter on alchemy.

Thanks for recommending the Star Ruby; I looked at it a while back, but to my understanding it's purely for banishing. Do you know what the Thelemic equivalent of the LIRP would be (if there is one)?

[*]Note that I said "directly"; holding an Earth tool in one hand and an Air tool in the other would theoretically create balance rather than cancellation, as there is some physical separation between the two tools.

[Frater_NT]

Thanks for recommending the Star Ruby; I looked at it a while back, but to my understanding it's purely for banishing. Do you know what the Thelemic equivalent of the LIRP would be (if there is one)?

Liber V vel Reguli

[Rin]

While he is quite obviously wrong on some points thereof - he switched the element attributions of the wand and dagger,

This isn't exactly uncommon, IMO Fire = Dagger and Air = wand makes far, far more sense to me.

Fire-Dagger: On a material level, a dagger is forged using fire and heat. Like fire, it is a tool of both creation and destruction (of change) It represents direct, violent action, or power through the threat thereof, the ultimate expression of the will. The blade can also be quite similar in shape to a flame.

Air-Wand: This one is a bit weaker, but a wand is generally gathered from the branches of a tree, which themselves flail in the wind, and absorb through their leaves the CO2 from the air and return it as life giving oxygen (also providing a home for birds, the animals most strongly associated with air). like most physical things associated with the air, they are long (tall), straight and slender (think towers, lightning rods, weather vanes, even tall trees). And wands (rods/staves) have a long tradition of representing the knowledge and intellect of their owner (think the traditional wizard's staff) or authority gained through this intellect. And unlike the wand, it isn't a direct tool of action, but instead by it's presence communicates it's meaning.

This one always seemed like such a no-brainer to me that I wonder sometimes if they weren't reversed by accident, the mainstream attributions make no sense to me at all. Representing air with a heavy metal object which has nothing to do with air, representing intellect with a functional object, and a tool of war at that, representing fire with a piece of wood which itself would, when exposed to fire, be consumed, representing willpower with a tool that is absolutely meaningless for expressing it, that has no capacity to create or change. I just don't see it.

[Frater_NT]

As Rin said, these objects are physical representations. While physically air/wand, fire/dagger may make more sense, we are talking about objects that represent NON-physical energies and concepts. So a dagger may have been forced with fire and whatnot, we are not symbolizing how it was made, we are symbolizing a concept, an idea, cutting through illusion and making our minds as sharp as a blade (Mind = Air after all). As a side note, think more of the dagger as a tool, not a weapon. The old Golden Dawn referred to the elemental tools as the "elemental weapons". I have a pocket knife, it is a tool, not a weapon.

Fr. N.'. T.'.

[Rin]

we are talking about objects that represent NON-physical energies and concepts

Exactly, and I think the Wand better represents those concepts and non-physical energies associated with air better than a dagger. An object made for (and with the physical form also having associations with the relevant element in it's own physical manifestation)and associated with since early human history, representing intellect and the authority that intellect conveys, makes far more sense to me than using a dagger just because you can connect the two using some abstract, post hoc wordplay.

Likewise with the dagger and fire, a blade, a tool of the most direct and drastic expression of willpower, seems like a far better option than a wand. I know the argument goes that the wand = fire = willpower because a kings scepter is the expression of his will, etc. but I don't buy it either. The scepter was a 'symbol,' of authority, a king didn't make people do what he wanted by hitting them with the scepter, the scepter was just a reminder that they had to do what he wanted because of his status, in a very similar role to the rod/staff and it's representation of intellect. It operated on an abstract, intellectual level, not as a direct expression of will.

If you trace it back far enough, where exactly do these associations come from anyway? Where did they first appear? I'd love to read into the original justification, maybe the mainstream attributions actually do make sense, but I don't understand it because there's something I'm missing.

[Frater_NT]

post hoc wordplay? Let me give you a little lesson about ceremonial magic, jr. What you need to understand, first and foremost, is that EVERYTHING is based around qabalistic symbolism, EVERYTHING. There is a reason the correspondences are the way they are. Let's start at the beginning, YHVH, the tetragrammaton. Now, I don't have the slightest clue how experienced you are with the qabalah but the letters of YHVH are elemental, but also relate the the four qabalistic worlds. Yod is fire and Atziluth. Heh is water and Briah, Vav is air and Yetzirah, Heh final is earth and Assiah. There is a perfect balance of masculine and feminine here, a perfect balance of active and passive, a perfect balance of male and female. When thinking of the energies of force and form it should be pretty fucking clear that there is a ton of sexual symbolism embedded in western magic (not to mention lots of actual practice of sexual magic!). Yod (fire/Atziluth) is the father, the universal male potency and energy. The reason that wand is fire and not air has not a fucking thing to do with how the weapon is made any of that silly shit. The wand is fire because it is the phallus of yod! The wand is symbolic of that divine, fiery Atziluth/yod energy. Sorry to burst your bubble kiddo but try studying more because you call out a 15-year occult vet.

Fr. N.'. T.'.

[Rin]

Relax mate, I I stated an opinion, I didn't run over your dog. And I certainly didn't 'call you out' on anything, take a deep breath and chill.

The 'post hoc wordplay' thing which seemed to get your hackles up was referring to the 'dagger = air because sharp mind and cutting through illusions' comment, which is the only justification I ever get when I wonder about how completely unintuitive the elemental weapon associations are on face value, despite, I hope, not being the only justification for that association.

As for how much Kaballah I know, enough to make sense of what you said there, the basics, but not a whole lot more.

The reason that wand is fire and not air has not a fucking thing to do with how the weapon is made any of that silly shit.

'Silly shit'? Really? The fact that the form, nature and origin of the tool is, at least in appearances, completely antithetical to the role said tool plays and the energies it's aligned with in magic is 'silly shit'? What happened to 'as above, so below'? If the form/nature/origin of a tool isn't relevant to it's meaning and purpose and associations, then why use them at all?

I understand the phallic reasoning behind associating the wand with fire (although I think the dagger could fill this role at least equally well the shape is there and the dagger, like the phallus, is a tool of creation (destruction too, but thats not so relevant to the phallus)), in hindsight I'd say that the wand could go either way, from where I'm standing. But then you're left with the dagger = air because... just because? And then people go back to the post hoc wordplay I was talking about, as I have a hard time imaging that when these systems were originally concocted, they said 'air = intellect = sharp wit = dagger!' But nobody seems to be able to offer a better justification.

If there's some deeper qabalistic meaning at work here which actually perfectly clarifies why a dagger is the best option for air, then I'd love it if you'd fill me in. But there's no point in getting pissed off at me if the system just happens to make no sense until you're balls deep in Jewish mysticism.

[5kinr]

Oh dear... [oh]

Well, I personally prefer the Fire wand and the Air dagger. That's just my opinion, I'm not saying it's empirically right or wrong (after all, not many things in occultism are 100% empirical). I agree that having the dagger represent Air isn't a perfect match symbolically, but the phallic Fire wand (traditional masculine qualities, energetic and hot) and receptive Water chalice (traditional feminine qualities, passive and cool) go together perfectly in my mind. I know that "a dagger isn't just a shortened sword", but the imagery of a blade and a shield (Air dagger and Earth pentacle) also fits rather well.

Thanks for recommending Liber V vel Reguli; I'm not heavily into Thelema, but I'm sure I can get some use out of it eventually.

[Azkhet]

/snickers

I'd also like to point out that a dagger isn't a weapon. Given the perspective these people are writing from, everyone carried a dagger like a universal tool. It's the equivalent of referring to a pocket bottle opener as an aggressive martial weapon - but get on with your bad selves. This is hilarious.

[Rin]

/snickers

I'd also like to point out that a dagger isn't a weapon

Actually, by definition it is :p

Noun
A short knife with a pointed and edged blade, used as a weapon.

You're right, back in the day most people would carry a blade, which served a lot of purposes, but one of those purposes, if it came to it, was self defense.

[Azkhet]

This



is not this:



no matter how much you'd like them to be. One is a tool like a screwdriver. I could stab you with a screwdriver. It's not a weapon. I could beat you to death with a hammer. It's still not a weapon. Caesar didn't send his troops into battle with daggers. He sent them with swords. By the same argument of self defense, you can drown some asshole in a cauldron or burn him to death, too -- talk about playing semantics.

I sort of get the point that if you want to conceptualize air as a dagger that you can do so. I like to visualize air as a pale vanilla Pop Tart myself. However, like I explained to Mjjs at one point in some other thread, you can't take three symbols that are selected for specific reasons and replace them with another just for shit and grins because you think it works better - it's set up a certain way for a reason (I think we were talking about color attributions with elements, and I explained the classic Hermetic color attributions have to do with the literal vibrational attributes of the colors and the elements - vibrations as in physics vibrations, not "gee I feel these vibes cuz I'm special" vibrations.) The attributions as Frater explained are set up that way for a reason, and yes, the wand is the phallus, the force of will that "impregnates" and spawns change. That's how the symbolism is set up. I could quote Uncle Al's Book 4 at you, I suppose, to tell you that the wand is will and the sword intellect because that's where Uncle Al gets it - classic Hermetic symbolism. Gardner started the whole dagger=air nonsense with the athame being an item that channels and directs etheric energy ... you know, like a wand. Or a Pop Tart. Or a Behbeh Jeebus dildo. Still, you asked for the reason why these things are the way they are and he gave them to you.

[Rin]

Ok there seems to be some confusion here, when I said a dagger was a weapon, I was referring to daggers generally, not specifically to the ritual dagger. I don't see any point in continuing a discussion which has obviously gotten people worked up, but I will say that while I can see the wand going either way, the dagger = air association still feels incredibly unintuitive to me (and if a tool can't represent what it's supposed to in your own mind, I can't imagine it would be overly useful), and I'd grateful if anyone who does happen to understand any deeper reason behind it could shed some light on the issue.

[Nahemah]

One is a tool like a screwdriver. I could stab you with a screwdriver. It's not a weapon. I could beat you to death with a hammer. It's still not a weapon. Caesar didn't send his troops into battle with daggers. He sent them with swords. By the same argument of self defense, you can drown some asshole in a cauldron or burn him to death, too -- talk about playing semantics.

Any item utilised to harm qualifies as a weapon for at least the duration of the attack and any legal repercussions which occur afterwards and although I don't know what laws are like where you live,just try telling the courts here that a screwdriver or a hammer cannot qualify as a weapon,lol.

It is intent that qualifies the item,more than structure,at least under the laws we have here in Scotland.
We are the stabbing murder number one city in Europe,A screwdriver used as a weapon here is often termed a shanker,being stabbed by one is 'getting a shanking'.Lovely colloquialism,eh?

Semantics,eh,what fun,but I think there's been enough of that here already.



Using this pic seems a little like a condescension attempt,it's a weak example and a distraction at best.

And this:



This dosen't look much like a dagger either,more a short sword,usually worn on a belt or scabbarded at the hip,traditionally.Like a baselard.

It's not a pilus/gladius type,blade too narrow etc,it but looks of similar proportions,lol.As it's a blank background on the pic though,it's quite difficult to judge it's length representative to other bladed objects.But the blade length is still too long relative to the handle length to be a stilleto.Meh.

Crocodile Dundee comes to mind,suddenly,lol..."that's not a knife...this,is a knife."

For entertainment purposes only,here is a pic of what I consider a modern dagger to look like:




You do know Old Julius was stabbed to death by daggers don't you? With the ease of concealment being a primary factor in the assassination.

Seems a little Ironic,given the recent turn of this conversation.

There are more pics in the below article,of daggers both ancient and modern,for further elucidation.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knightly_d ... iddle_Ages

"A dagger is a fighting weapon with a sharp point designed or capable of being used as a thrusting or stabbing weapon.[1][2] The design dates to human prehistory, and daggers have been used throughout human experience to the modern day in close combat confrontations.[3] Many ancient cultures used adorned daggers in ritual and ceremonial purposes, a trend which continues to the present time in the form of art knives. The distinctive shape and historic usage of the dagger have made it iconic and symbolic.

Over the years, the term has been used to describe a wide variety of thrusting knives, including knives that feature only a single cutting edge, such as the European rondel dagger or the Persian pesh-kabz, or, in some instances, no cutting edge at all, such as the stiletto of the Renaissance. However, over the last hundred years or so, authorities have recognized that the dagger, in its contemporary or mature form, has certain definable characteristics, including a short blade with a sharply-tapered point, a central spine or fuller, and (usually) two cutting edges sharpened the full length of the blade, or nearly so.[4][5][6][7][8][9]

Most daggers also feature a full crossguard to keep the hand from riding forwards onto the sharpened blade edges. Another distinctive feature of the modern dagger is that it is designed to position the blade horizontally when using a conventional palm grip, enabling the user to slash right or left as well as thrust the blade between an opponent's ribs.[5] The twin full-length edges enable the user to make broad slashes (cuts) using either a forehand or backhand arm movement, while the sharp, acutely-pointed tip makes the knife an effective thrusting or stabbing weapon.[5][10] This versatility distinguishes the modern dagger from more specialized thrusting knives, such as the stiletto.[10][11]"

I'm not a Ceremonialist,so the fight about elemental attributions is not of much interest to me,personally,but I just felt like posting to clear up any misconceptions about whether a dagger[or indeed a screwdriver,sigh] is a weapon or not and what a dagger is and is not,as this is topic is starting to look a little flamey to me.

It's getting hot in here.

I'd appreciate more civility and less snark please.No one needs to be condescending here.

And a wee treat for the hairsplitters among us:

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_euroedge.html#dagger

[Azkhet]

Caesar, by his best friend, and not in a military operation. Still doesn't change what the kabbalistic symbolism is.

[Frater_NT]

I actually agree with Rin here, it's about time to wrap up this thread. I could talk qabalistic symbolism about the tools until we are all blue in the face, but I'd rather not look like a smurf. If what I say makes no sense to someone, or if they just feels the symbols don't add up, well, that's them and I'm me. I have no problem sharing what I've learned over my long occult career but I'm tired of, and bored with, arguing with people. So, this will be my last post in this thread. Want to check out stuff about the tools, read Regardie's big black brick or Crowley's Book 4.

Fr. N.'. T.'.

[Nahemah]

You are both clearly very knowledgable in your chosen areas of study and practice.That is not in question here,in any way.

My concern is in the content of certain responses here in this thread,which are not within the remit of the discussion and not within the guidelines we expect for reasonable civility.That is all.